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Author Topic: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines  (Read 22136 times)

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Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« on: September 10, 2010, 08:31:50 AM »
(PNA) -- A bishop has reiterated his support for the revival of the death penalty.

Bishop Efraim Tendero, national director, Philippine Council of Evangelical Churches (PCEC), expressed support on the proposal of Senator Miguel Zubiri to reimpose death penalty in the country.

“We are in favor of death penalty as it is biblical,” he said.

However, he said that the measure must be balanced by a reliable judicial system.

In 2006, the group criticized the decision of then President Gloria Macapagal-Arroyo to abolish the death penalty.

The religious group said they support the imposition of death penalty, noting that capital crimes which lead to the loss of other lives deserve capital punishment.

“We uphold the principle of life for life. The punishment must fit the crime. The penalty must be commensurate to the gravity of the offense,” the group said in their statement four years ago.

Last week, Senator Zubiri filed Senate Bill No. 2383 seeking to revive death penalty as it would help deter the commission of heinous crimes in the country.

“Let us restore the death penalty for heinous crimes. I always say, if you do the crime, you do the time. Now I say, if you do a heinous crime, then you can say goodbye to your time," the lawmaker said.

The bill was filed in the midst of the bloody hostage-taking incident at the Quirino Grandstand in Manila on August 23, which left eight Hong Kong nationals dead, including Filipino hostage taker Rolando Mendoza. (PNA)

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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #1 on: September 10, 2010, 08:35:25 AM »
Interesting. How do the members of Tubag Bohol Dot Com feel about this?

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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #2 on: September 10, 2010, 08:38:41 AM »
yes to death penalty. death penalty for convicted corrupt filipino politicians. death penalty for rapists, pedophiles, child molesters.

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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #3 on: September 10, 2010, 08:48:31 AM »
I agree that death penalty should be enacted for hardcore criminals; however, there should be a viable judicial system so that innocents should not be condemned to death for crimes they did not commit.



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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #4 on: September 11, 2010, 07:26:11 AM »
Agreed!
It need to be revived to curve down the appetite of those
  voracious cold-blooded murderers.
That is after proven guilty based on evidences and testimonies
   from the witnesses.
It's Biblical and God himself imposed the death penalty as
  written on the book of Genesis 9:5 and 6...

"And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the
  hand of every beast will I require it, and  at the hand of man
  of every man's brother will I require the life of man"

"Whoso sheddedth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed;
  for in the image of God made he man"



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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2010, 11:45:24 PM »
It's really hard to say that the people of god themselves, tried promoting this kind death penalty.  I I were to ask, I beg to disagree.


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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #6 on: September 14, 2010, 02:01:34 AM »
One of the ten commandments states;
  "Thou shalt not kill"

This commandment from God is for the whole
  anthropological race, we are all commanded to obey...
    but for those who disobey will suffer the consequences of their own actions.

Death penalty was instituted by God for disobeying such commandment
  it has nothing to do with being one of the people of God or being a Christian,
  we are just following what God said to do.




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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #7 on: September 14, 2010, 10:51:20 AM »
Last week, Senator Zubiri filed Senate Bill No. 2383 seeking to revive death penalty as it would help deter the commission of heinous crimes in the country.

“Let us restore the death penalty for heinous crimes. I always say, if you do the crime, you do the time. Now I say, if you do a heinous crime, then you can say goodbye to your time," the lawmaker said.

uh, would that the lawmaker retain his braggadocio should it happen (heaven forbid!) that it's his own son who commits a heinous crime.

i am against capital punishment.  yes, it's biblical in the sense that it existed biblically and historically.   but must we also quote the bible in defense of polygamy or of slavery, because these are biblical?


may i share this excerpt on the death penalty from somewhere:

Albert Pierrepoint, the British hangman who resigned in 1956, said in his biography that he functioned on behalf of the State for what he thought “…was the most humane and the most dignified method of meting out death to a delinquent--- however justified or unjustified the allotment of death may be--- and on behalf of humanity I trained other nations to adopt the British system of execution.”    

His experience, he said, left him a bitter aftertaste.  He concluded thus, "…that I do not now believe that any one of the hundreds of executions I carried out has in any way acted as a deterrent against future murder.  Capital punishment, in my view, achieved nothing except revenge."

All legal systems are not too perfect as to be airtight and beyond loopholes.  Where there is capital punishment, so can there be a possible miscarriage of justice with appalling results since death is irreversible.  Another result is far from death penalty’s desired deterrent effect--- it creates martyrs as public sympathy may arise, as in the case of political prosecutions.  But nothing is more compelling against the death penalty as the possibility that the person executed has committed no crime.  


going back to the bible (with apologies, as i'm no expert here), jesus christ himself was meted with the capital punishment at the time, which we all know as the crucifixion.  was it justified?







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statesville

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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #8 on: September 15, 2010, 12:43:57 AM »
The vicarious death of the Lord Jesus Christ on the cross was the fulfillment of the scripture.
The Lord Jesus has no sin, he offered His own blood to atone the sins of the whole world.

"So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him
    shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation"..Hebrew 9:27

"But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we yet sinners,
       Christ died for us"...Romans 5:8

Though the Judicial system we have in the Phils. is full of flaws and corruption and the poor oftentimes
  becomes the sacrificial lambs of the real  guilty ones but the Lord knows it all.

"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment"...Hebrew 9:27
     They might get away with crime on this world but not when they face the Lord;
          they will be in the unquenchable eternal flame of hell.




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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #9 on: September 15, 2010, 11:52:27 AM »
The vicarious death of the Lord Jesus Christ on the cross was the fulfillment of the scripture.
The Lord Jesus has no sin, he offered His own blood to atone the sins of the whole world.

"So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him
    shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation"..Hebrew 9:27

"But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we yet sinners,
       Christ died for us"...Romans 5:8


it's nice to be reminded of the religious perspective of christ's death.  from the historical perspective, though,  it was still capital punishment that he went through because he was accused of a crime, which for believers of course doesn't negate the fact that it was written in the scriptures.  needless to say, we cannot say the same thing of today's criminals whose deaths are state-sanctioned.

these points may be worth one's while:

       The story of Cain and Abel is a very clear manifestation of the seriousness of this commandment. After Cain had murdered his brother Abel, God punished him, not by death, but by banishing him from the land whereby Cain became a wanderer.  But, God also went ahead to “…put mark on him to prevent him from being killed by anyone who would meet him.” (Genesis 4:1- 16).  

       By his own example, God denounces justice based on vengeance and violence.  “We cannot teach that killing is wrong by killing,” says Pope John Paul II.  The death penalty perpetuates the very evil it is trying to terminate. The practice and promotion of the death penalty is a reflection of the ‘culture of death’ of our times. The act of killing a person is intrinsically an evil, whether lawfully or unlawfully, by a murderer or by the state.  It is the reasons that make it appear different.

             -(from Religious Opposition to the Death Penalty, excerpted by Talk Left, The Politics of Crime, from the Monitor, Feb. 15, 2005)


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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #10 on: September 15, 2010, 11:58:38 AM »
more:

Capital punishment is in the same category as abortion and euthanasia. They are a premeditated taking away of human life, and are, therefore, immoral.  It is bad enough for society to lose one person, but worse to lose yet another, for whatever reason.  The end does not justify the means. Whether the death penalty is legal is no reason for resorting to it or to upholding it.

The death penalty has an inherent weakness of injustice, since the weak and poor are more easily proven guilty than the rich and more powerful. That people continue to kill in spite of the application of capital punishment as a deterrent is an indicator that we are only tackling a problem at the level of symptoms than of the root cause.  Killing by the state sets a bad precedence and promotes mob justice.  The modern state is better placed to curb crime than the old state.

Putting aside the religious perspective for a moment, the author also makes this excellent point:

Life imprisonment makes more sense.  The culprit can repent and even earn a living for the aggrieved family. Says Bishop David B. Thomson: “Capital punishment feeds the cycle of violence in society by pandering to a lust for revenge.  It brutalizes us and deadens our sensitivities to the precious nature of every single human life.” 

     -(from Religious Opposition to the Death Penalty, excerpted by Talk Left, The Politics of Crime, from the Monitor, Feb. 15, 2005, underscoring mine)


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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #11 on: September 15, 2010, 12:11:59 PM »
Though the Judicial system we have in the Phils. is full of flaws and corruption and the poor oftentimes
  becomes the sacrificial lambs of the real guilty ones but the Lord knows it all.

"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment"...Hebrew 9:27
     They might get away with crime on this world but not when they face the Lord;
          they will be in the unquenchable eternal flame of hell.

while the philippine judicial system is not perfect (it's not exactly "full of flaws and corruption" either) so is it in all other countries on this planet.  judicial systems are inherently imperfect by virtue of their being man-made, though some are better than others.

let the lord be the judge, then, on who gets to live or die, because "he knows it all".  there's the "unquenchable eternal flame of hell" waiting for those who "get away with crimes of this world" anyway.  why should the decision of punishment by death be in the hands of an imperfect judicial system?
 

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Republic Act 8485 (Animal Welfare Act of 1998, Philippines), as amended and strengthened by House  Bill 6893 of 2013--- violation means a maximum of P250,000 fine with a corresponding three-year jail term and a minimum of P30,000 fine and six months imprisonment

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statesville

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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #12 on: September 16, 2010, 05:49:47 AM »
Cain the first murderer was not killed by God but being punished with a mark --Gen 4:15
God did not set up the capital punishment during those time but it was instituted after the flood-- Gen 9:4, 5

At present generation, the mark of Cain is a symbol for those who refused to
   get saved and come to the saving knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ
    but rather take the mark of the beast.




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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #13 on: September 16, 2010, 08:01:38 AM »
  ;D ;D ;D wa man jud koi ikatampu ana oi....basta verse na sa bible ang paghisgutan. ;D ;D  

   Basta pra naho, okay ko nga i-restore ang death penalty. This will serve as a reminder oi sa mga tawong wai atay....... wai batikon....wai kasingkasing! They don't deserve to live.

     kanang mosakwahi sa death penalty, ibutang kuno ang inmong kaugalingon nga usa sa imong hinigugma, gi-murder. klaro2x jud ha ng gipatay siya anang tawhana. Naka witness pa jud ka. Oks ra ka?  Basta prisohon lang, okay na? :D

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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #14 on: September 16, 2010, 09:58:44 AM »
Too many false convictions happen for this to be just.

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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #15 on: September 16, 2010, 10:13:09 AM »
THE ULTIMATE PUNISHMENT: A DEFENSE
Ernest van den Haag

John M. Olin Professor of Jurisprudence and Public Policy, Fordham University.











In an average year about 20,000 homicides occur in the United States. Fewer than 300 convicted murderers are sentenced to death. But because no more than thirty murderers have been executed in any recent year, most convicts sentenced to death are likely to die of old age (1). Nonetheless, the death penalty looms large in discussions: it raises important moral questions independent of the number of executions (2).

The death penalty is our harshest punishment (3). It is irrevocable: it ends the existence of those punished, instead of temporarily imprisoning them. Further, although not intended to cause physical pain, execution is the only corporal punishment still applied to adults (4). These singular characteristics contribute to the perennial, impassioned controversy about capital punishment.

I. DISTRIBUTION

Consideration of the justice, morality, or usefulness, of capital punishment is often conflated with objections to its alleged discriminatory or capricious distribution among the guilty. Wrongly so. If capital punishment is immoral in se, no distribution cannot affect the quality of what is distributed, be it punishments or rewards. Discriminatory or capricious distribution thus could not justify abolition of the death penalty. Further, maldistribution inheres no more in capital punishment than in any other punishment.

Maldistribution between the guilty and the innocent is, by definition, unjust. But the injustice does not lie in the nature of the punishment. Because of the finality of the death penalty, the most grievous maldistribution occurs when it is imposed upon the innocent. However, the frequent allegations of discrimination and capriciousness refer to maldistribution among the guilty and not to the punishment of the innocent (5).

Maldistribution of any punishment among those who deserves it is irrelevant to its justice or morality. Even if poor or black convicts guilty of capital offenses suffer capital punishment, and other convicts equally guilty of the same crimes do not, a more equal distribution, however desirable, would merely be more equal. It would not be more just to the convicts under sentence of death.

Punishments are imposed on person, not on racial or economic groups. Guilt is personal. The only relevant question is: does the person to be executed deserve the punishment? Whether or not others who deserved the same punishment, whatever their economic or racial group, have avoided execution is irrelevant. If they have, the guilt if the executed convicts would not be diminished, nor would their punishment be less deserved. To put the issue starkly, if the death penalty were imposed on guilty blacks, but not on guilty whites, or, if it were imposed by a lottery among the guilty, this irrationally discriminatory or capricious distribution would neither make the penalty unjust, nor cause anyone to be unjustly punished, despite the undue impunity bestowed on others (6).

Equality, in short, seems morally less important than justice. And justice is independent of distributional inequalities. The ideal of equal justice demands that justice be equally distributed, not that it be replace by equality. Justice requires that as many of the guilty as possible be punished, regardless of whether others have avoided punishment. To let these others escape the deserved punishment does not do justice to them, or to society. But it is not unjust to those who could not escape.

These moral considerations are not meant to deny that irrational discrimination, or capriciousness, would be inconsistent with constitutional requirements. But I am satisfied that the Supreme Court has in fact provided for adherence to the constitutional requirement of equality as much as is possible. Some inequality is indeed unavoidable as a practical matter in any system (7). But, ultra posse nemo obligatur. (Nobody is bound beyond ability)(8).

Recent data reveal little direct racial discrimination in the sentencing of those arrested and convicted of murder. (9) The abrogation of the death penalty for rape has eliminated a major source of racial discrimination. Concededly, some discrimination based on the race of murder victims may exist; yet, this discrimination affects criminal murder victimizers in an unexpected way. Murderers of whites are thought more likely to be executed than murderers of blacks. Black victims, then, are less fully vindicated than white ones. However, because most black murderers kill blacks, black murderers are spared the death penalty more often than are white murderers. They fare better than most white murderers (10). The motivation behind unequal distribution of the death penalty may well have been to discriminate against blacks, but the result has favored them. Maldistribution is thus a straw man for empirical as well as analytical reasons.

II. MISCARRIAGES OF JUSTICE

In a recent survey Professors Hugo Adam Bedau and Michael Radelet found that 7000 persons were executed in the United States between 1900 and 1985 and that 35 were innocent of capital crimes (11). Among the innocents they list Sacco and Vanzetti as well as Ethel and Julius Rosenberg. Although their data may be questionable, I do not doubt that, over a long enough period, miscarriages of justice will occur even in capital cases.

Despite precautions, nearly all human activities, such as trucking, lighting, or construction, cost the lives of some innocent bystanders. We do not give up these activities, because the advantages, moral or material, outweigh the unintended losses (12). Analogously, for those who think the death penalty just, miscarriages of justice are offset by the moral benefits and the usefulness of doing justice. For those who think death penalty unjust even when it does not miscarry, miscarriages can hardly be decisive.

III. DETERRENCE

Despite much recent work, there has been no conclusive statistical demonstration that the death penalty is a better deterrent than are alternative punishments (13). However, deterrence is less than decisive for either side. Most abolitionists acknowledge that they would continue to favor abolition even if the death penalty were shown to deter more murders than alternatives could deter (14). Abolitionists appear to value the life of a convicted murderer or, at least, his non-execution, more highly than they value the lives of the innocent victims who might be spared by deterring prospective murderers.

Deterrence is not altogether decisive for me either. I would favor retention of the death penalty as retribution even if it were shown that the threat of execution could not deter prospective murderers not already deterred by the threat of imprisonment (15). Still, I believe the death penalty, because of its finality, is more feared than imprisonment, and deters some prospective murderers not deterred by the thought of imprisonment. Sparing the lives of even a few prospective victims by deterring their murderers is more important than preserving the lives of convicted murderers because o the possibility, or even the probability, tht executing them would not deter others. Whereas the live of the victims who might be saved are valuable, that of the murderer has only negative value, because of his crime. Surely the criminal law is meant to protect the lives of potential victims in preference to those of actual murderers.

Murder rates are determined by many factors; neither the severity nor the probability of the threatened sanction is always decisive. However, for the long run, I share the view of Sir James Fitzjames Stephen: "Some men, probably, abstain from murder because they fear that if they committed murder they would be hanged. Hundreds of thousands abstain from it because they regard it with horror. One great reason why they regard it with horror is that murderers are hanged (16)" Penal sanctions are useful in the long run for the formation of the internal restraints so necessary to control crime. The severity and finality of the death penalty is appropriate to the seriousness and the finality of murder (17).

IV. INCIDENTAL ISSUES: COST, RELATIVE

SUFFERING, BRUTALIZATION

Many nondecisive issues are associated with capital punishment. Some believe that the monetary cost of appealing a capital sentence is excessive (18). Yet most comparisons of the cost of life imprisonment with the cost of life imprisonment with the cost of execution, apart from their dubious relevance, are flawed at least by the implied assumption that life prisoners will generate no judicial costs during their imprisonment. At any rate, the actual monetary costs are trumped by the importance of doing justice.

Others insist that a person sentenced to death suffers more than his victim suffered, and that this (excess) suffering is undue according to the lex talionis (rule of retaliation) (19). We cannot know whether the murderer on death row suffers more than his victim suffered; however, unlike the murderer, the victim deserved none of the suffering inflicted. Further, the limitations of the lex talionis were meant to restrain private vengeance, not the social retribution that has taken its place. Punishment-- regardless of the motivation-- is not intended to revenge, offset, or compensate for the victim's suffering, or to measured by it. Punishment is to vindicate the law and the social order undermined by the crime. This is why a kidnapper's penal confinement is not limited to the period for which he imprisoned his victim; nor is a burglar's confinement meant merely to offset the suffering or the harm he caused his victim; nor is it meant only to offset the advantage he gained (20).

Another argument heard at least since Beccaria (21) is that, by killing a murderer, we encourage, endorse, or legitimize unlawful killing Yet, although all punishments are meant to be unpleasant, it is seldom argued that they legitimize the unlawful imposition of identical unpleasantness. Imprisonment is not thought to legitimize kidnapping; neither are fines thought to legitimize robbery. The difference between murder and execution, or between kidnapping and imprisonment, is that the first is unlawful and undeserved, the second a lawful and deserved punishment for an unlawful act. The physical similarities of the punishment to the crime are irrelevant. The relevant difference is not physical, but social (22).

V. JUSTICE, EXCESS, DEGRADATION

We threaten punishments in order to deter crime. We impose them not only to make the threats credible but also as retribution (justice) for the crimes that were not deterred. Threats and punishments are necessary to deter and deterrence is a sufficient practical justification for them. Retribution is an independent moral justification (23). Although penalties can be unwise, repulsive, or inappropriate, and those punished can be pitiable, in a sense the infliction of legal punishment on a guilty person cannot be unjust. By committing the crime, the criminal volunteered to assume the risk of receiving a legal punishment that he could have avoided by not committing the crime. The punishment he suffers is the punishment he voluntarily risked suffering and, therefore, it is no more unjust to him than any other event for which one knowingly volunteer to assume the risk. Thus, the death penalty cannot be unjust to the guilty criminal (24).

There remain, however, two moral objections. The penalty may be regarded as always excessive as retribution and always morally degrading. To regard the death penalty as always excessive, one must believe that no crime-- no matter how heinous-- could possibly justify capital punishment. Such a belief can be neither corroborated nor refuted; it is an article of faith.

Alternatively, or concurrently, one may believe that everybody, the murderer no less than the victim, has an imprescriptible (natural?) right to life. The law therefore should not deprive anyone of life. I share Jeremy Bentham's view that any such "natural and imprescriptible rights" are "nonsense upon stilts." (25)

Justice Brennan has insisted that the death penalty is "uncivilized," "inhuman," inconsistent with "human dignity" and with "the sanctity of life," (26) that it "treats members of the human race as nonhumans, as objects to be toyed with and discarded," (27) that it is "uniquely degrading to human dignity"(28) and "by its very nature, [involves] a denial of the executed person's humanity." (29) Justice Brennan does not say why he thinks execution "uncivilized." Hitherto most civilizations have had the death penalty, although it has been discarded in Western Europe, where it is currently unfashionable probably because of its abuse by totalitarian regimes.

By "degrading," Justice Brennan seems to mean that execution degrades the executed convicts. Yet philosophers, such as Immanuel Kant and G.F.W. Hegel, have insisted that, when deserved, execution, far from degrading the executed convict, affirms his humanity by affirming his rationality and his responsibility for his actions. They thought that execution, when deserved, is required for the sake of the convict's dignity. (Does not life imprisonment violate human dignity more than execution, by keeping alive a prisoner deprived of all autonomy?)(30).

Common sense indicates that it cannot be death-- our common fate-- that is inhuman. Therefore, Justice Brennan must mean that death degrades when it comes not as a natural or accidental event, but as a deliberate social imposition. The murderer learns through his punishment that his fellow men have found him unworthy of living; that because he has murdered, he is being expelled from the community of the living. This degradation is self-inflicted. By murdering, the murderer has so dehumanized himself that he cannot remain among the living. The social recognition of his self-degradation is the punitive essence of execution. To believe, as Justice Brennan appears to, that the degradation is inflicted by the execution reverses the direction of casuality.

Execution of those who have committed heinous murders may deter only one murder per year. If it does, it seems quite warranted. Its is also the only fitting retribution for murder I can think of.


http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/angel/procon/haagarticle.html

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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #16 on: September 17, 2010, 12:28:53 AM »
Cain the first murderer was not killed by God but being punished with a mark --Gen 4:15
God did not set up the capital punishment during those time but it was instituted after the flood-- Gen 9:4, 5

At present generation, the mark of Cain is a symbol for those who refused to
   get saved and come to the saving knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ
    but rather take the mark of the beast.

and wasn't cain's mark as a punishment also placed there by god “…to prevent him from being killed by anyone who would meet him.” (Genesis 4:1- 16)?

genesis 9:4-5 says:

4 "Only you shall not eat flesh with its life, that is, its blood."
5 "Surely I will require your lifeblood; from every beast I will require it. And from every man, from every man's brother I will require the life of man. (New American Standard)

4 "Only flesh with its lifeblood still in it you shall not eat."
5 "For your own lifeblood, too, I will demand an accounting: from every animal I will demand it, and from man in regard to his fellow man I will demand an accounting for human life." (New American Bible)

is god's law for capital punishment intrinsic in these passages, after the flood?

p.s.  these are bible passages, like any other passages, that are interpreted to fit one's beliefs.  vegetarians and anti-animal cruelty advocates use these, too.  so do religions and sects that forbid the consumption of animal blood as food (the iglesia ni cristo, for one).  meanwhile, we filipino catholics enjoy heaps of 'dinuguan' during feasts of our patron saints.  and there's the german blutwurst... 


 


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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #17 on: September 17, 2010, 12:37:59 AM »
 ;D ;D ;D wa man jud koi ikatampu ana oi....basta verse na sa bible ang paghisgutan. ;D ;D  

   Basta pra naho, okay ko nga i-restore ang death penalty. This will serve as a reminder oi sa mga tawong wai atay....... wai batikon....wai kasingkasing! They don't deserve to live.

     kanang mosakwahi sa death penalty, ibutang kuno ang inmong kaugalingon nga usa sa imong hinigugma, gi-murder. klaro2x jud ha ng gipatay siya anang tawhana. Naka witness pa jud ka. Oks ra ka?  Basta prisohon lang, okay na? :D

yes, oks na oks ra nako, mags.  simbako lang intawon ug mahinabo, palayo, but hypothetically it would be fine by me; justice will be served with life imprisonment without parole.  besides, kung witness ko, matulala tingali ko mao nga di na pod ko tingali reliable nga witness. 

manimbako lang ta ha?  ikaw, kung imong hinigugma ang murderer, witness pa gyod ka sa iyang pag-murder, oks ra pod ka nga bitayon siya?  di ka mag-ampo nga prisohon na lang?:D
 

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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #18 on: September 17, 2010, 12:39:00 AM »
I lean towards the thinking of Prof. Ernest van den Haag, the finality of it all. In regards to the tax payers' point of view (which falls in line with republican, libertarian viewpoint), we refer to the costs in running federal penitentiaries , which are tax dollars. The cost to feed, bathe, and maintain sustenance for people serving a life sentence or on long-term death row is quite large. These tax dollars should be spent to help the homeless, the starving children in the United States, add it to Medicaid, Medicare , and to the hundreds of federally-funded free clinics, VA hospitals that do help in sustaining the health of the tax-paying, law-abiding citizens of the United States.

Then again, on a secondary point of view, I like Van den Haag's emphasis of the finality of death penalty. In regards to opponent points of 'inhumanity', I think Van den Haag truly addressed it perfectly.





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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #19 on: September 17, 2010, 12:40:45 AM »
yes, oks na oks ra nako, mags.  simbako lang intawon ug mahinabo, palayo, but hypothetically it would be fine by me; justice will be served with life imprisonment without parole.  besides, kung witness ko, matulala tingali ko mao nga di na pod ko tingali reliable nga witness. 

manimbako lang ta ha?  ikaw, kung imong hinigugma ang murderer, witness pa gyod ka sa iyang pag-murder, oks ra pod ka nga bitayon siya?  di ka mag-ampo nga prisohon na lang?:D
 

This is why it is important to have a viable Judicial System. This is why I am only for the Death Penalty when the judicial system is viable, and free from erroneous mistakes in the dispersion of a delicate decision such as the Death Penalty.

You do have a point , Isles, and I thank you for sharing your very valid point and reasoning.



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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #20 on: September 17, 2010, 01:05:47 AM »
Among the innocents they list Sacco and Vanzetti  as well as Ethel and Julius Rosenberg. Although their data may be questionable, I do not doubt that, over a long enough period, miscarriages of justice will occur even in capital cases.

"If it had not been for this thing, I might have lived out my life talking at street corners to scorning men.  I might have died, unmarked, unknown, a failure.  Now we are not a failure.  This is our career and our triumph. Never in our full life can we hope to do such work for tolerance, justice, for man's understanding of man, as now we do by accident. Our words - our lives - our pains - nothing!  The taking of our lives - lives of a good shoemaker and a poor fish peddler - all!  That last moment belong to us - that agony is our triumph.” (Bartolomeo Vanzetti)

Nicola Sacco and Bartolomeo Vanzetti were executed on 23rd August 1927.  On that day, over 250,000 people took part in a silent demonstration in Boston.

Fifty years later, on 23rd August 1977, Michael Dukakis, the governor of Massachusetts, issued a proclamation  effectively absolving the two men of the crime.  (Spartacus Educational)

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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #21 on: September 17, 2010, 01:12:45 AM »
This is an example of a miscarriage of justice, specifically in capital cases. However, one has to understand the time period this took place in : 1927. Since then, there have been advances and changes in judicial system, the parole system being implemented in the United States, as well as a more viable judicial system as compared to during the early 20th century. Things have changed in the United States since then; as in many other countries, in regards to the dispensing of justice.

The context to what Haag talks about does make sense.

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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #22 on: September 17, 2010, 01:13:49 AM »
I lean towards the thinking of Prof. Ernest van den Haag, the finality of it all. In regards to the tax payers' point of view (which falls in line with republican, libertarian viewpoint), we refer to the costs in running federal penitentiaries , which are tax dollars. The cost to feed, bathe, and maintain sustenance for people serving a life sentence or on long-term death row is quite large. These tax dollars should be spent to help the homeless, the starving children in the United States, add it to Medicaid, Medicare , and to the hundreds of federally-funded free clinics, VA hospitals that do help in sustaining the health of the tax-paying, law-abiding citizens of the United States.

Then again, on a secondary point of view, I like Van den Haag's emphasis of the finality of death penalty. In regards to opponent points of 'inhumanity', I think Van den Haag truly addressed it perfectly.

reading the good professor's well-researched and well-thought out piece is truly convincing.  that is, if we do not read it in the context of a myriad of other points, both pro and con.  but economic considerations?  that for me is the worst of reasons.       

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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #23 on: September 17, 2010, 01:18:06 AM »
reading the good professor's well-researched and well-thought out piece is truly convincing.  that is, if we do not read it in the context of a myriad of other points, both pro and con.  but economic considerations?  that for me is the worst of reasons.       

It is a point worth considering. Funding these federal and state penitentiaries cost tax payer money, much of which could be used for developing and improving schools (much of which are under funded, and teachers being under-paid), for hospitals, roadway construction, as well as the aid of the dependent elderly under federal care.

Most of the criminals who are in death row or are serving life are guilty of malicious and gross homocide, some of whom are guilty of raping children and then killing them, raping young boys and kill them, homicide of whole families, and use the defense of criminally insane as reason for their actions. They are given life sentences, but they retain life. Not only that, but are given televisions to watch, clothes to wear, fed warm meals 3 times a day, are given medical care for sickness, given psychiatric treatment if necessary. For life. It costs to fund this. But what about those whose families they have destroyed? The mother that they killed in cold blooded murder, the father who was working and shot in the head because he was in their way, but at the same time was also providing a family of 4 or 5. The families left destitute due to the loss of a parent, parents, or children. There is no repayment, no financial reimbursement can bring them back. Justice for such crimes should be also final, as the crime committed.

In the United States, everything matters. It's good to know where our hard-earned tax dollars are being used/ spent.

I for one whould be willing to pay $12,000 for school systems, to pay property tax, to pay tax for wellfare to help those who are having a financial situation, but am more resistant to pay $3,000 a year to fund and provide a place for those who are guilty of crimes and have violated the law of the land, especially those who have killed / taken the lives of innocents. For me, No-Way. That's my view. Period.



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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #24 on: September 17, 2010, 01:40:29 AM »
i am for the restoration of death penalty and the abolition of juvenile justice act or if not amend it.

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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #25 on: September 17, 2010, 01:54:14 AM »
i am for the restoration of death penalty and the abolition of juvenile justice act or if not amend it.

Ray, what is your view in regards to Singapore's Capital Punishment methods? Would you like to have something like that implemented in the Philippines? (I place special attention on their anti-drug trafficking stance, your view on that too...)

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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #26 on: September 17, 2010, 01:56:08 AM »
Amnesty International data:

137 countries have abolished the death penalty.

China, Iran, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and the United States alone executed 1,252 people in 2007.  

Nearly 3,350 people were sentenced to death in 51 countries.

There are more than 20,000 prisoners on death row across the world.

1.  Death Penalty Outlawed (year)

•   Albania (2000)
•   Andorra (1990)
•   Angola (1992)
•   Argentina (2008)
•   Armenia (2003)
•   Australia (1984)
•   Austria (1950)
•   Azerbaijan (1998)
•   Belgium (1996)
•   Bhutan (2004)
•   Bosnia-Herzegovina (1997)
•   Bulgaria (1998)
•   Cambodia (1989)
•   Canada (1976)
•   Cape Verde (1981)
•   Chile (2008)
•   Colombia (1910)
•   Cook Islands (2007)
•   Costa Rica (1877)
•   Côte d'Ivoire (2000)
•   Croatia (1990)
•   Cyprus (1983)
•   Czech Republic (1990)
•   Denmark (1933)
•   Djibouti (1995)
•   Dominican Republic (1966)
•   East Timor (1999)
•   Ecuador (1906)
•   Estonia (1998)
•   Finland (1949)
•   France (1981)
•   Georgia (1997)
•   Germany (1949)
•   Greece (1993)
•   Guinea-Bissau (1993)
•   Haiti (1987)
•   Honduras (1956)
•   Hungary (1990)
•   Iceland (1928)
•   Ireland (1990)
•   Italy (1947)
•   Kiribati (1979)
•   Liberia (2005)
•   Liechtenstein (1987)
•   Lithuania (1998)
•   Luxembourg (1979)
•   Macedonia (1991)
•   Malta (1971)    
•   Marshall Islands (1986)
•   Mauritius (1995)
•   Mexico (2005)
•   Micronesia (1986)
•   Moldova (1995)
•   Monaco (1962)
•   Montenegro (2002)
•   Mozambique (1990)
•   Namibia (1990)
•   Nepal (1990)
•   Netherlands (1870)
•   New Zealand (1961)
•   Nicaragua (1979)
•   Niue (n.a.)
•   Norway (1905)
•   Palau (n.a.)
•   Panama (1903)
•   Paraguay (1992)
•   Poland (1997)
•   Portugal (1867)
•   Philippines (2006)
•   Romania (1989)
•   Rwanda (2007)
•   Samoa (2004)
•   San Marino (1848)
•   São Tomé and Príncipe (1990)
•   Senegal (2004)
•   Serbia (2002)
•   Seychelles (1993)
•   Slovak Republic (1990)
•   Slovenia (1989)
•   Solomon Islands (1966)
•   South Africa (1995)
•   Spain (1978)
•   Sweden (1921)
•   Switzerland (1942)
•   Turkey (2002)
•   Turkmenistan (1999)
•   Tuvalu (1978)
•   Ukraine (1999)
•   United Kingdom (1973)
•   Uruguay (1907)
•   Uzbekistan (2008)
•   Vanuatu (1980)
•   Vatican City (1969)
•   Venezuela (1863)

2.  Death Penalty Outlawed for Ordinary Crimes (year)

•   Bolivia (1997)
•   Brazil (1979)
•   Cook Islands (n.a.)
•   El Salvador (1983)
•   Fiji (1979)
•   Israel (1954)    
•   Kazakhstan (2007)
•   Kyrgyzstan (2007)
•   Latvia (1999)
•   Peru (1979)

3.  De Facto Ban on Death Penalty (year)

•   Algeria (1993)
•   Benin (1987)
•   Brunei Darussalam (1957)
•   Burkina Faso (1988)
•   Central African Republic (1981)
•   Congo (Republic) (1982)
•   Eritrea (n.a.)
•   Gabon (n.a.)
•   Gambia (1981)
•   Ghana (n.a.)
•   Grenada (1978)
•   Kenya (n.a.)
•   Korea, South (n.a.)
•   Laos (n.a.)
•   Liberia (n.a.)
•   Madagascar (1958)
•   Malawi (n.a.)
•   Maldives (1952)
•   Mali (1980)    
•   Mauritania (1987)
•   Morocco (1993)
•   Myanmar (1993)
•   Nauru (1968)
•   Niger (1976)
•   Papua New Guinea (1950)
•   Russia (1999)
•   Sri Lanka (1976)
•   Suriname (1982)
•   Swaziland (n.a.)
•   Tajikistan (n.a.)
•   Tanzania (n.a.)
•   Togo (n.a.)
•   Tonga (1982)
•   Tunisia (1990)
•   Zambia (n.a.)

4.  Death Penalty Permitted

•   Afghanistan
•   Antigua and Barbuda
•   Bahamas
•   Bahrain
•   Bangladesh
•   Barbados
•   Belarus
•   Belize
•   Botswana
•   Burundi
•   Cameroon
•   Chad
•   China (People's Republic)
•   Comoros
•   Congo (Democratic Republic)
•   Cuba
•   Dominica
•   Egypt
•   Equatorial Guinea
•   Eritrea
•   Ethiopia
•   Gabon
•   Ghana
•   Guatemala
•   Guinea
•   Guyana
•   India
•   Indonesia
•   Iran
•   Iraq
•   Jamaica
•   Japan
•   Jordan
•   Korea, North
•   Korea, South
•   Kuwait    
•   Laos
•   Lebanon
•   Lesotho
•   Libya
•   Malawi
•   Malaysia
•   Mongolia
•   Nigeria
•   Oman
•   Pakistan
•   Palestinian Authority
•   Qatar
•   St. Kitts and Nevis
•   St. Lucia
•   St. Vincent and the Grenadines
•   Saudi Arabia
•   Sierra Leone
•   Singapore
•   Somalia
•   Sudan
•   Swaziland
•   Syria
•   Taiwan
•   Tajikistan
•   Tanzania
•   Thailand
•   Trinidad and Tobago
•   Uganda
•   United Arab Emirates
•   United States
•   Vietnam
•   Yemen
•   Zambia
•   Zimbabwe

 







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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #27 on: September 17, 2010, 01:59:09 AM »
Agreed!
It need to be revived to curve down the appetite of those
  voracious cold-blooded murderers.
That is after proven guilty based on evidences and testimonies
   from the witnesses.
It's Biblical and God himself imposed the death penalty as
  written on the book of Genesis 9:5 and 6...

"And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the
  hand of every beast will I require it, and  at the hand of man
  of every man's brother will I require the life of man"

"Whoso sheddedth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed;
  for in the image of God made he man"



As always, Ma'am States, thank you for sharing your view with us.

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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #28 on: September 17, 2010, 02:02:05 AM »
It is a point worth considering. Funding these federal and state penitentiaries cost tax payer money, much of which could be used for developing and improving schools (much of which are under funded, and teachers being under-paid), for hospitals, roadway construction, as well as the aid of the dependent elderly under federal care.

it certainly is worth considering.  and the word is considering.  all these other government institutions have budgets, right? 

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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #29 on: September 17, 2010, 02:04:42 AM »
In the United States, everything matters. It's good to know where our hard-earned tax dollars are being used/ spent.

it's not as if in other countries not everything matters...  by the way, this thread is about the revival of the death penalty in the philippines, not about the united states where it exists.

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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #30 on: September 17, 2010, 02:08:24 AM »

 For me, No-Way. That's my view. Period.


your view is hereby respected, period, but not believed, comma.  (you don't want any more discussion then, because of your 'period'?) ;D

well, gtg anyway.  it's 3 a.m. here.  see you tomorrow!

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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #31 on: September 17, 2010, 02:08:56 AM »
i am for the restoration of death penalty and the abolition of juvenile justice act or if not amend it.


Ray, can you divulge more about the juvenile justice act in the Philippines? Why would you have it abolished and amended. Just curious to know.
As for your former statement, I also agree.



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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #32 on: September 17, 2010, 02:13:28 AM »
 ;D ;D ;D wa man jud koi ikatampu ana oi....basta verse na sa bible ang paghisgutan. ;D ;D  

   Basta pra naho, okay ko nga i-restore ang death penalty. This will serve as a reminder oi sa mga tawong wai atay....... wai batikon....wai kasingkasing! They don't deserve to live.

     kanang mosakwahi sa death penalty, ibutang kuno ang inmong kaugalingon nga usa sa imong hinigugma, gi-murder. klaro2x jud ha ng gipatay siya anang tawhana. Naka witness pa jud ka. Oks ra ka?  Basta prisohon lang, okay na? :D

Mag Balantay,

You bring up a good point, a valid point.

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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #33 on: September 17, 2010, 03:00:31 AM »
As always, Ma'am States, thank you for sharing your view with us.

You are very welcome Lorenzo   :D

@Ms Isles...God cursed Cain from the earth... (Gen 4:11)
                  a fugitive and a vagabond .......(verse 12)
                  The Lord set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him ..(verse 15)
                  On the book of Genesis 9, as quoted, I'm referring to verse 6 which I mentioned on page one but
                     not on the following page just an overlook.., yes verse 4 pertains to the blood of the beast..

               Genesis 9:6 = was the capital punishment as stated re:man's blood...(KJV of 1611)
               It's a fact that the Lord Himself instituted it to maintain an orderly society.

I really enjoy reading your posts, everybody is entitled to their own opinion and I respected that.... :)
                                    


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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #34 on: September 17, 2010, 08:06:41 AM »
Ray, what is your view in regards to Singapore's Capital Punishment methods? Would you like to have something like that implemented in the Philippines? (I place special attention on their anti-drug trafficking stance, your view on that too...)
im not in favor on harsh punishments. i would like to endorse the lethal injection. less painful yet peaceful death.

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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #35 on: September 17, 2010, 09:02:26 AM »
"If it had not been for this thing, I might have lived out my life talking at street corners to scorning men.  I might have died, unmarked, unknown, a failure.  Now we are not a failure.  This is our career and our triumph. Never in our full life can we hope to do such work for tolerance, justice, for man's understanding of man, as now we do by accident. Our words - our lives - our pains - nothing!  The taking of our lives - lives of a good shoemaker and a poor fish peddler - all!  That last moment belong to us - that agony is our triumph.” (Bartolomeo Vanzetti)

Nicola Sacco and Bartolomeo Vanzetti were executed on 23rd August 1927.  On that day, over 250,000 people took part in a silent demonstration in Boston.

Fifty years later, on 23rd August 1977, Michael Dukakis, the governor of Massachusetts, issued a proclamation  effectively absolving the two men of the crime.  (Spartacus Educational)

Islander, just a note to say that I like your well thought out posts.

There is also another issue in addition to the false convictions: giving the State too much power over the individual is very dangerous when the people in charge become megalomaniacs.  Then they can legally, through machinations, execute individuals that they find troublesome.

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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #36 on: September 17, 2010, 01:37:45 PM »
Against the Death Penalty: Christian Stance in a Secular World

by Margaret M. Falls


Those rejecting the death penalty," social critic Ernest van den Haag once remarked. "have the burden of showing that no crime deserves capital punishment—a burden which they have not so far been willing to hear." This is a challenge to which opponents of capital punishment need to respond. In my experience, the most passionate calls for retention of the death penalty come from those who are certain of the inherent rightness of killing killers. And those who initially defend capital punishment as a deterrence to crime often respond to the conflicting evidence on this point by abandoning their utilitarian approach and asserting simply that killers deserve to be killed. Until this argument loses its force, capital punishment probably will continue to be regarded as a legitimate form of retribution, and executions will seem neither "cruel and unusual" nor in conflict with what the courts call "contemporary standards of decency."

Many who oppose the death penalty dismiss retributive justice in this context as merely an expression of revenge rather than a legitimate moral ideal. Christians may point out that the Old Testament law of an "eye for an eye" tried only to set human limits in a world of excessive punishments, and that the New Testament recommends Christlike acts of forgiveness rather than retribution. Such approaches may be exegetically correct and religiously instructive, but they do not address van den Haag’s complaint.

Do Christians really want to hand the concept of retribution over to the secularists or the vengeful? I think not. The wisdom of retributive justice is its insistence that the punishment must fit the crime. This approach does not explain why bad acts deserve punishment, but it is congruent with some intuitions we should be slow to give up—that the government should not imprison the innocent or those who nonvoluntarily or through no fault of their own cause injury to others, and that punishment must be proportionate. We would not imprison a petty thief for life when a mass murderer receives only a year.

The question is, can we hold on to these judgments and nevertheless answer van den Haag’s challenge? Can we say, in other words, that criminals deserve proportionate suffering but that no criminal deserves the death penalty? I think we can.

In making this argument I will assume that each of us has a fundamental moral obligation to respect the inherent worth of persons. This assumption is a good one for the Christians opposed to the death penalty to use in speaking to the secular world. It finds considerable affirmation in the Christian story of God’s relationship to humankind, and has strong, though not uncontested, support in secular realms. The principle of respect for persons is also usually accepted by retributivists who support the death penalty. My model of punishment will show the inadequacy of their position.

Two general rules follow from respect for persons. First, we cannot treat people as mere instruments to our survival, success or fulfillment. Second, we must value in each individual his or her distinctively human capacity for moral agency—the ability to assess situations rationally, to make judgments about what is right and wrong, and to act according to those judgments.

These two rules are of course closely connected. If for the sake of my entertainment I coerce someone into performing an act that threatens both of our lives, then I have both used her as an instrument of my own ends and denied her the opportunity to assess the situation and decide for herself whether to participate. In denying her this opportunity, I have failed to treat her as a moral agent. Moral agency, like any capacity, may be underdeveloped and poorly used; but when people act immorally, they are still moral agents in the sense intended here. Hence, even a wicked criminal deserves this fundamental respect.

What, then, is our reasoning for punishing a criminal? Why do bad acts deserve punishment instead of loving-kindness and pity for the errant soul? To answer these questions, let us consider some possible responses to wrong behavior. Imagine that I know someone who relishes telling my friends lies about me. I might refuse to confront or reprimand him, perhaps out of fear or pity, or because I do not consider the matter worth the trouble. Maybe I think I am taking the higher road and responding with loving-kindness. However, the net effect of my action is that I avoid treating him as a moral agent. Rebuking bad behavior is part of treating someone as the kind of being who can enter into moral debate, make decisions about right and wrong, and morally assess past behavior and future plans.

Generally, holding someone responsible for his or her actions takes the form of a reprimand. But if the harm done is severe, a verbal rebuke may not be enough; we may, in this case, decide to withdraw from the friendship or withhold our confidence. We try to do something that expresses the degree to which we have been hurt, thereby holding the friend responsible for the harm he has done.

In a similar way, crime can be considered as wrongdoing for which the government holds the wrongdoer responsible. By isolating the criminal from the community, society makes it clear that the person’s behavior will not be tolerated, impresses upon the offender just how wrong the community finds that behavior, and insists that the wrongdoer morally assess her actions. Punishment of this kind demonstrates a respect for the individual’s inherent worth as a moral agent. Thus, from our obligation to respect persons we can derive what I call the moral-accountability criterion of just punishment: punishment by the state is justified if and only if it serves the function of holding persons accountable. Punishment that fails to serve this function is unjustified.

While the theory of punishment I am proposing affirms the moral significance of proportionate punishment, it would nonetheless exclude forms of punishment which by their nature fail to hold the offender responsible. Holding an offender responsible necessarily includes demanding that she respond as only moral agents can: by re-evaluating her behavior. If the punishment meted out makes reflective response to it impossible, then it is not a demand for response as a moral agent.

Death is not a punishment to which reflective moral response is possible. A moral response to the certainty of death at sunrise is possible. But waiting to be executed is not the criminal’s punishment; death is. Death terminates the possibility of moral reform. We can believe that an executed prisoner responds as a moral agent after death only if we assume, as many Christians do, that there is conscious life for the individual after death. Such an assumption, however, is not only religious in nature, but is peculiar to certain religions and not others. A government committed to the separation of church and state cannot operate on such an assumption. Therefore, insofar as the state is concerned, death terminates conscious life and cannot be considered a punishment prompting the offender to respond as a moral agent. The death penalty therefore lacks an essential ingredient of just punishment.

The argument formulated here is for several reasons a useful one for Christians living in a secular world. The fundamental moral obligation it assumes—respect for people as moral agents—is compatible with but not dependent on specific Christian beliefs. Furthermore, it relies on the theory of retributive justice, popularly thought to justify capital punishment.

What if some Christians deny the value of the separation of church and state and argue that it is their religious duty to see that the state operates under the assumption that there is individual immortality? To argue successfully that murderers can deserve the death penalty, Christians of this persuasion would still have to argue that killing criminals successfully fulfills the function of punishment: holding the offender responsible. And to do this they must show that by killing offenders and assuming an afterlife, the community successfully allows the punished ones to respond to their punishment as moral agents. There are reasons for doubting that this is the case.

Though dead criminals can—according to this theory—make their response to God, they cannot make it to the community that punished them. Since they are not allowed to act out within the community either a will to reform or a defiant challenge to the community’s judgment, I question whether they have really been allowed the opportunity to respond in the requisite sense. Is a meaningful response possible if the realm offended, the human community, is not the realm in which the offender is allowed to respond? And is the act of holding someone accountable complete if the one who solicits the response cannot be the one who receives it? In leaving it to God to sustain the disembodied soul and make moral response possible, this approach in effect abandons the effort to inflict a punishment that makes a moral response possible.

Killing is not a coherent way for the community to solicit moral responses from those who have offended it. And since killing criminals is not a coherent way to solicit a moral response, it fails to hold offenders responsible. Thus, even though death is proportionate to death, killing killers violates the principle that justifies punishment in the first place.


Dr. Falls is professor of philosophy at St. Mary’s College, Nortre Dame, Indiana. This article appeared in the Christian Century, December 10, 1986, pps. 1118-1119. Copyright by the Christian Century Foundation; used by permission. Current articles and subscription information can be found at www.christiancentury.org. This article prepared for Religion Online by Ted & Winnie Brock.


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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #37 on: September 17, 2010, 04:13:24 PM »
You are very welcome Lorenzo   :D

@Ms Isles...God cursed Cain from the earth... (Gen 4:11)
                  a fugitive and a vagabond .......(verse 12)

cursed, yes, but does it also say that he was condemned to die at the hands of fellowmen, which in essence is what capital punishment by death is about?



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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #38 on: September 17, 2010, 04:55:35 PM »
                 On the book of Genesis 9, as quoted, I'm referring to verse 6 which I mentioned on page one but
                     not on the following page just an overlook.., yes verse 4 pertains to the blood of the beast..

               Genesis 9:6 = was the capital punishment as stated re:man's blood...(KJV of 1611)
               It's a fact that the Lord Himself instituted it to maintain an orderly society.

I really enjoy reading your posts, everybody is entitled to their own opinion and I respected that.... :)
                               

as i enjoy reading yours, ms states.  one thing with forums like this is that we get to exchange ideas and opinions in the spirit of agreeing to disagree based on mutual respect for both our sameness and difference as we learn much from each other in the process. :D

and yes, genesis 9:5-6...

"And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the
  hand of every beast will I require it, and  at the hand of man
  of every man's brother will I require the life of man"

"Whoso sheddedth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed;
  for in the image of God made he man"

What does the Bible say about capital punishment and the death penalty?

The Old Testament

Life was harsh for the Hebrews in early Old Testament history. They had just been freed from slavery in Egypt, and wandered in the desert for 40 years. When they finally reached the promised land they had to fight almost constantly to take and hold it. There were few options for dealing with offenders in a society that moved frequently and struggled just to survive. The penalty for most crimes was either death, beating or banishment from the tribe.

The Old Testament Law prescribed the death penalty for an extensive list of crimes including:

•   Murder (Exodus 21:12-14; Leviticus 24:17,21)
•   Attacking or cursing a parent (Exodus 21:15,17)
•   Kidnapping (Exodus 21:16)
•   Failure to confine a dangerous animal, resulting in death (Exodus 21:28-29)
•   Witchcraft and sorcery (Exodus 22:18, Leviticus 20:27, Deuteronomy 13:5, 1 Samuel 28:9)
•   Sex with an animal (Exodus 22:19, Leviticus 20:16)
•   Doing work on the Sabbath (Exodus 31:14, 35:2, Numbers 15:32-36)
•   Incest (Leviticus 18:6-18, 20:11-12,14,17,19-21)
•   Adultery (Leviticus 20:10; Deuteronomy 22:22)
•   Homosexual acts (Leviticus 20:13)
•   Prostitution by a priest's daughter (Leviticus 21:9)
•   Blasphemy (Leviticus 24:14,16, 23)
•   False prophecy (Deuteronomy 18:20)
•   Perjury in capital cases (Deuteronomy 19:16-19)
•   False claim of a woman's virginity at time of marriage (Deuteronomy 22:13-21)
•   Sex between a woman pledged to be married and a man other than her betrothed (Deuteronomy  
             22:23-24)
 
The New Testament

The New Testament does not have any specific teachings about capital punishment. However, the Old Testament ideas of punishment became secondary to Jesus' message of love and redemption.  Both reward and punishment are seen as properly taking place in eternity, rather than in this life.

Jesus said His mission was not to abolish the Law, but to fulfill it (Matthew 5:17-20).  However, He and His apostles greatly modified our understanding of God's intentions.  Love is the principle that must guide all our actions (Matthew 5:43-48, 22:34-40, Mark 12:28-34, Luke 10:25-28, Romans 13:9-10, Galatians 5:14).

Christians are bound by Jesus' commands to "Love the Lord your God" and "Love your neighbor as yourself."  We are no longer bound by the harsh Old Testament Law (John 1:16-17, Romans 8:1-3, 1 Corinthians 9:20-21).

Jesus flatly rejected the Old Testament principle of taking equal revenge for a wrong done  (Matthew 5:38-41, Luke 9:52-56).  He also said that we are all sinners and do not have the right to pass judgment on one another (Matthew 7:1-5).  In the case of a woman caught in adultery (a capital offense), Jesus said to those who wanted to stone her to death,

"Let anyone among you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her."  And once again he bent down and wrote on the ground. When they heard it, they went away, one by one, beginning with the elders; and Jesus was left alone with the woman standing before him. Jesus straightened up and said to her, "Woman, where are they?  Has no one condemned you?" She said, "No one, sir."  And Jesus said, "Neither do I condemn you. Go your way, and from now on do not sin again." (NRSV, John 8:7-11)

The apostle Paul also warned against taking revenge for a wrong done (Romans 12:17-21, 1 Thessalonians 5:15).  Likewise, the apostle Peter warned us not to repay evil with evil (1 Peter 3:9).

http://www.twopaths.com/faq_CapitalPunishment.htm









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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #39 on: September 17, 2010, 05:27:00 PM »
Arguments for and against capital punishment

Christians, and other churches, are divided on the issue of whether capital punishment is right or wrong. Some proponents of capital punishment see it as mandated by the Old Testament Law.   However, Christians are no longer bound by the Old Testament Law. The argument of a Biblical mandate for capital punishment is also contradicted by the fact that many of the capital crimes in the Old Testament are considered relatively minor today.  Very few people in the Christian world would support capital punishment for such things as doing work on the Sabbath, false prophecy or making false statements about a woman's virginity.

Many proponents of capital punishment interpret the phrase, "authority does not bear the sword in vain!" in Romans 13:1-5 as New Testament authority for capital punishment.  However, the point of this passage is that Christians must not use their freedom from the Old Testament religious Law as an excuse to violate the civil law. We must obey civil authority, which is instituted by God, because of fear of punishment as well as conscience (verse 5).

Opponents of capital punishment see it as exactly the kind of revenge and human judgment that Jesus and His apostles so often warned against. They believe the principles set forth by Jesus and the apostles restrict punishment to only that which is necessary to protect society (i.e., humane confinement of offenders).

Opponents of capital punishment also point out that Jesus taught great principles for us to apply in our lives, rather than specific laws. Thus, his failure to specifically condemn slavery, capital punishment and many other evils should not be interpreted as approval of those things. They see the mercy He showed to the woman caught in adultery (John 8:3-11) as His rejection of capital punishment. However, Jesus never specifically repudiated capital punishment.

Some opponents of capital punishment see a prohibition against capital punishment in the Ten Commandments (Exodus 20:13, "Thou shalt not kill" in the King James Version). The original Hebrew word ratsach, translated as "kill" or "murder" could refer to either killing in general or unlawful killing (murder). However, most authorities think this is not a prohibition against capital punishment because the death penalty is specifically authorized elsewhere in the Old Testament.

http://www.twopaths.com/faq_CapitalPunishment.htm



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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #40 on: September 17, 2010, 05:39:18 PM »
Church positions

The three largest Christian denominations in the United States are split on the issue of capital punishment. The Roman Catholic Church opposes it in virtually all cases; the Southern Baptist Convention approves of it in certain cases; the United Methodist Church opposes it in all cases.

Here are the official position statements:

Roman Catholic:

2267. Assuming that the guilty party's identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.

If, however, non-lethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people's safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means, as these are more in keeping with the concrete conditions of the common good and more in conformity with the dignity of the human person.

Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm-without definitively taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself-the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity "are very rare, if not practically non-existent."  (From Catechism of the Catholic Church, second edition, copyright © 1997, United States Catholic Conference, Inc., http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect2chpt2art5.htm)

Southern Baptist:

[A resolution adopted at the June, 2000 convention of The Southern Baptist Convention] affirms the use of capital punishment "by civil magistrates as a legitimate form of punishment for those guilty of murder or treasonous acts that result in death." The death penalty should be used only when there is "clear and overwhelming evidence of guilt," the proposal says. It also calls for "vigilance, justice and equity in the criminal justice system," with capital punishment "applied as justly and as fairly as possible without undue delay, without reference to the race, class or status of the guilty." (From  http://www.bpnews.net/bpnews.asp?Id=6002)

United Methodist:  

Basic Freedoms and Human Rights

We hold governments responsible for the protection of the rights of the people to free and fair elections and to the freedoms of speech, religion, assembly, communications media, and petition for redress of grievances without fear of reprisal; to the right to privacy; and to the guarantee of the rights to adequate food, clothing, shelter, education, and health care. The form and the leaders of all governments should be determined by exercise of the right to vote guaranteed to all adult citizens. We also strongly reject domestic surveillance and intimidation of political opponents by governments in power and all other misuses of elective or appointive offices. The use of detention and imprisonment for the harassment and elimination of political opponents or other dissidents violates fundamental human rights. Furthermore, the mistreatment or torture of persons by governments for any purpose violates Christian teaching and must be condemned and/or opposed by Christians and churches wherever and whenever it occurs. For the same reason, we oppose capital punishment and urge its elimination from all criminal codes. (From The Book of Discipline of The United Methodist Church--2000, ¶164A. Copyright 2000 by The United Methodist Publishing House, http://www.umc.org/abouttheumc/policy/political/a-basicfreedoms.htm)  

http://www.twopaths.com/faq_CapitalPunishment.htm



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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #41 on: September 17, 2010, 05:54:33 PM »
Islander, just a note to say that I like your well thought out posts.

There is also another issue in addition to the false convictions: giving the State too much power over the individual is very dangerous when the people in charge become megalomaniacs.  Then they can legally, through machinations, execute individuals that they find troublesome.

thanks, ben. 

yes, and a glaring example of false convictions vis-a-vis megalomania:  hitler and the holocaust.  the genocide was state-sanctioned by the third reich; the nazis had all the reasons in the world for condemning to death a people who were not of the aryan race.  had they won the war, history would have been written differently, at the world's peril.



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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #42 on: September 17, 2010, 09:54:00 PM »
Against the Death Penalty: Christian Stance in a Secular World

Two general rules follow from respect for persons.  First, we cannot treat people as mere instruments to our survival, success or fulfillment.  Second, we must value in each individual his or her distinctively human capacity for moral agency—the ability to assess situations rationally, to make judgments about what is right and wrong, and to act according to those judgments.

***

...Moral agency, like any capacity, may be underdeveloped and poorly used; but when people act immorally, they are still moral agents in the sense intended here. Hence, even a wicked criminal deserves this fundamental respect.

***

Death is not a punishment to which reflective moral response is possible. A moral response to the certainty of death at sunrise is possible. But waiting to be executed is not the criminal’s punishment; death is.

***

Death terminates the possibility of moral reform. Therefore, insofar as the state is concerned, death terminates conscious life and cannot be considered a punishment prompting the offender to respond as a moral agent.  The death penalty therefore lacks an essential ingredient of just punishment.

***
Killing is not a coherent way for the community to solicit moral responses from those who have offended it. And since killing criminals is not a coherent way to solicit a moral response, it fails to hold offenders responsible. Thus, even though death is proportionate to death, killing killers violates the principle that justifies punishment in the first place.

http://www.religion-online.org
 

a good read, bai hubag.  thanks.

the points that stand out:

1.  we cannot treat people as mere instruments to our survival, success or fulfillment.

2.  death penalty lacks the essential ingredient of just punishment, which is moral reform.  because death terminates conscious life, it therefore terminates the possibility of moral reform.

3.  even if death deserves death, killing killers violates the principle that justifies punishment in the first place.
 


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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #43 on: September 19, 2010, 04:30:20 AM »

  Mau lagi na, killing killers is a crime in itself. Pro unsaon man pud tong napatay oi? Dili ba diay na crime nga nakapatay man siya? Where can the murdered person seek justice? Lisod ug mag base lang pud ta sa biblya. FAET.....FAET! >:(

    Hinaut nga kining ningsupak nga dili ma revive ang death penalty makatilaw. Tanawon nato ilang reaction if in case mahitabo ni sa usa sa ilang minahal nga napatay unja klaro jud ang nagpatay. Kana bitaw pug nga marape injong anak pud! bujag laman! Tanawon nato aber!  ;D ;D ;D    P E A C E! ;D

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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #44 on: September 19, 2010, 10:32:39 AM »
 Mau lagi na, killing killers is a crime in itself. Pro unsaon man pud tong napatay oi? Dili ba diay na crime nga nakapatay man siya? Where can the murdered person seek justice? Lisod ug mag base lang pud ta sa biblya. FAET.....FAET! >:(

    Hinaut nga kining ningsupak nga dili ma revive ang death penalty makatilaw. Tanawon nato ilang reaction if in case mahitabo ni sa usa sa ilang minahal nga napatay unja klaro jud ang nagpatay. Kana bitaw pug nga marape injong anak pud! bujag laman! Tanawon nato aber!  ;D ;D ;D    P E A C E! ;D

salamat kay nanimbako/namujag sad tawon ta, mags. ;D  

wa bayay niingon nga dili crime nang nakapatay.  and the murdered person can seek justice through the justice system.  (kana kun maka-seek pa siya nga murdered na man kaha siya, di wa na siya aning kalibotana.  in which case, ang iyang kaparyentihan o ang state ang mo-seek ug justice.) 

ang justice, kana lang ba diay nga death sentence?  we're talking of punishment here because it is presumed that the wheel of justice is already grinding.  

di tantong lisod ang pag-base sa bibliya kay gi-base man sad sa bibliya ang death penalty sa mga believers ani.  even your own sense of justice now is based on biblical traditions, whether you are conscious of it or not.  

anyways, na hala.  hinaot pod nga kining ning-uyon nga i-revive ang death penalty makatilaw.  tan-awon nato ilang reaction if in case mahitabo nga usa nila ka minahal nakapatay unja klaro jud ang pagpatay.  kana bitaw pod nga mang-rape ilang anak pod!  bujag palayo!  tan-awon nato, aber. ;D

puwera lang intawon nga ang uyon mismo maoy makapatay ug maka-rape.  simbako palayo!
p-e-a-c-e! ;D
    

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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #46 on: September 20, 2010, 02:02:00 AM »
???

  I, for one, uyon jud ko nga ma revive ang death penalty. Simbako lang nga mahitabo ni sa usa nakong minahal sa buhay, naks ha! ako mismo ang magpabitay sa criminal! kanang mga pushers bitaw pud, bitayon jud sila! kanang nang rape...hala bitay!!!! ;D ;D ;D
wa silai katungod mabuhi oi! THEY'RE A MANACE TO SOCIETY ! ; 8)

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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #47 on: September 20, 2010, 02:23:12 AM »
  I, for one, uyon jud ko nga ma revive ang death penalty. Simbako lang nga mahitabo ni sa usa nakong minahal sa buhay, naks ha! ako mismo ang magpabitay sa criminal! kanang mga pushers bitaw pud, bitayon jud sila! kanang nang rape...hala bitay!!!! ;D ;D ;D
wa silai katungod mabuhi oi! THEY'RE A MANACE TO SOCIETY ! ; 8)

I agree with this completely. For those who have violated the laws and have taken human life/lives, should be judged accordingly. I for one am not sympathetic for serial rapists, serial killers who have capitalized on the judicial system's forfeiture of capital punishment. Time and time again have serial rapists, serial killers pleaded insanity for their crimes, while at the same time benefited the resources of tax payer money. They retain their lives while those whom they have silenced are dead, whose families are devastated.

 

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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #48 on: September 20, 2010, 06:37:33 AM »
I agree with this completely. For those who have violated the laws and have taken human life/lives, should be judged accordingly. I for one am not sympathetic for serial rapists, serial killers who have capitalized on the judicial system's forfeiture of capital punishment. Time and time again have serial rapists, serial killers pleaded insanity for their crimes, while at the same time benefited the resources of tax payer money. They retain their lives while those whom they have silenced are dead, whose families are devastated.

 

    thanks bai Lorenz. totally agree jud! ;D ;D ;D

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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #49 on: September 20, 2010, 11:53:27 AM »
 I, for one, uyon jud ko nga ma revive ang death penalty. Simbako lang nga mahitabo ni sa usa nakong minahal sa buhay, naks ha! ako mismo ang magpabitay sa criminal! kanang mga pushers bitaw pud, bitayon jud sila! kanang nang rape...hala bitay!!!! ;D ;D ;D
wa silai katungod mabuhi oi! THEY'RE A MANACE TO SOCIETY ! ; 8)

congratulations!  tagsa ray makaako pagpabitay ug minahal nga criminal.  naa bitaw koy iglesia ni cristo nga amigo, siya kuno mismo ang mopatay kun bay0t iyang anak kay criminal man para nila ang bay0t, punishable by death, pareha rag pushers ug rapists, nga mga menace to society kuno.  

buot ipasabot, kandaiya ra tag opinion kun kinsay angay mabuhi ug mamatay nga wa sa oras, apil na ani nga mo-decide ang uyon sa death penalty ug ang murderers mismo nga ni-decide pod nga angay patyon ang ilang victims.  sa ato pa, ang mga uyon sa death penalty ug ang mga murderers ug uban pang criminals way kalainan. :-X  
  

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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #50 on: September 20, 2010, 12:01:04 PM »
I agree with this completely. For those who have violated the laws and have taken human life/lives, should be judged accordingly. I for one am not sympathetic for serial rapists, serial killers who have capitalized on the judicial system's forfeiture of capital punishment. Time and time again have serial rapists, serial killers pleaded insanity for their crimes, while at the same time benefited the resources of tax payer money. They retain their lives while those whom they have silenced are dead, whose families are devastated.
 

i disagree completely.  for me, agreeing is like taking upon myself the power of life and death.  i have no sympathy for serial rapists and killers and i hold all the sympathy for their victims, but if i favor having these criminals killed, as sanctioned by the state, what's the point of my sympathy for their victims when these sinful dregs are saved from conscious punishment by death?

if humanity truly believed in an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth, matod pa sa mga katiguwangan, buta ug pangag na tang tanan. 


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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #51 on: September 20, 2010, 12:05:20 PM »
And that is fine, Isles, we cannot expect to stand shoulder to shoulder on every issue. Tho I do not agree with you and your reasoning, I respect your point.


 :)

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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #52 on: September 20, 2010, 03:04:08 PM »
And that is fine, Isles, we cannot expect to stand shoulder to shoulder on every issue. Tho I do not agree with you and your reasoning, I respect your point.
 :)

just as i respect your point, lorenz.  i'm even glad that we do not stand shoulder to shoulder on every issue.  it affords us a chance for discussions, with this forum as our venue.  opposing stands give us the chance to distill ideas for our mutual benefit.  it's like muddying the waters, then giving the dregs time settle at the bottom so we can have pure filtered waters on top.  refreshing! :D  

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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #53 on: September 20, 2010, 07:02:44 PM »
it's like muddying the waters

Attagirl!  8)

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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #54 on: September 20, 2010, 10:42:34 PM »
congratulations!  tagsa ray makaako pagpabitay ug minahal nga criminal.  naa bitaw koy iglesia ni cristo nga amigo, siya kuno mismo ang mopatay kun bay0t iyang anak kay criminal man para nila ang bay0t, punishable by death, pareha rag pushers ug rapists, nga mga menace to society kuno.  

buot ipasabot, kandaiya ra tag opinion kun kinsay angay mabuhi ug mamatay nga wa sa oras, apil na ani nga mo-decide ang uyon sa death penalty ug ang murderers mismo nga ni-decide pod nga angay patyon ang ilang victims.  sa ato pa, ang mga uyon sa death penalty ug ang mga murderers ug uban pang criminals way kalainan. :-X  
  

       Ms. Isle,  what I mean is one of my love ones is being raped or murdered and I know who did it, definitely ako ang magpabitay nya. If sa imong kabahin, gi rape imong anak or gi murder imong bana and you know the murderer, what will u do?

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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #55 on: September 20, 2010, 11:05:49 PM »
       Ms. Isle,  what I mean is one of my love ones is being raped or murdered and I know who did it, definitely ako ang magpabitay nya. If sa imong kabahin, gi rape imong anak or gi murder imong bana and you know the murderer, what will u do?

to your question, my answer is i will naturally file a case, mags.  it's the most i could do.  i am not the judge.  i will hope though for a conviction and a life sentence without parole for the perpetrator.

as to what you mean, you're talking only about your loved ones as victims, that's why you want the death penalty.  my question was what about if your loved ones were the perpetrators?  would you still go for the death penalty?

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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #56 on: September 21, 2010, 01:16:59 AM »
to your question, my answer is i will naturally file a case, mags.  it's the most i could do.  i am not the judge.  i will hope though for a conviction and a life sentence without parole for the perpetrator.

as to what you mean, you're talking only about your loved ones as victims, that's why you want the death penalty.  my question was what about if your loved ones were the perpetrators?  would you still go for the death penalty?

   yes, Ms. Isle, I will. Sakit man but I have to. Let justice reign no matter what it takes. ;D

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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #57 on: September 21, 2010, 01:21:03 AM »
   yes, Ms. Isle, I will. Sakit man but I have to. Let justice reign no matter what it takes. ;D

This is strong. You have strong Principles, Magbalantay. In fact, your answer manifests the supremacy and the infallability of the Law.
No exceptions.

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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #58 on: September 21, 2010, 01:55:59 AM »
This is strong. You have strong Principles, Magbalantay. In fact, your answer manifests the supremacy and the infallability of the Law.
No exceptions.
[/quote

 Thanks bai Lorenze. Simbako lang jud if mahitabo ni sa among family. Hopefully wala jud tawn.bujag....bujag  ;D ;D ;D But as what I have said, justice will really prevail. SO BE IT!

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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #59 on: September 21, 2010, 12:12:29 PM »
   yes, Ms. Isle, I will. Sakit man but I have to. Let justice reign no matter what it takes. ;D

then please accept my congratulations again, which i earlier tried to convey to you, mags.  heaven forbid though that you or i or anybody else for that matter get to face this kind of tragic situation.  we’re talking hypothetical situations here, anyway, and our answers are just in keeping with our stand on the death penalty.  meanwhile, as you say in one of your posts, simbako lang jud. ;D 

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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #60 on: September 21, 2010, 12:18:39 PM »
This is strong. You have strong Principles, Magbalantay. In fact, your answer manifests the supremacy and the infallability of the Law.
No exceptions.

truly strong, whatever your “strong” here means, lorenz.  clearly the word is used as an adjective of principles, and thus does it fall flat.  i daresay it is the person who is strong (or weak) about his principles.  the same cannot be said about principles per se, unless we are referring to anthropic, i.e. human friendly principles, which refer to the physical world as we know it and not to laws of justice that this thread is all about.     

supremacy of the law?  sure, laws of the land should be deemed supreme, no matter how imperfect these are and no matter that one country’s supreme laws need not necessarily be so in another, as in the case of the death penalty. 

infallability?  that word does not exist.  the nearest that there is though is infallibility, which as we may know does not apply to laws made by man.  that’s why we have congress, a very human one, that’s tasked to pass, revise or amend laws.  infallible congress is not.  so are the laws it passes.

if laws were infallible, europe would still be having the divine right of kings, the u.s. would still have slavery, quartering would still be done in scotland ala-braveheart, and non-virgin single women would still be meted with the death penalty according to the mosaic law.

infallibility at its most basic is the “inability to err in teaching revealed truth,” upheld in catholic teachings as based on scriptural and traditional proofs.  man-made laws do not fall in this category.




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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #61 on: September 21, 2010, 10:09:25 PM »
truly strong, whatever your “strong” here means, lorenz.  clearly the word is used as an adjective of principles, and thus does it fall flat.  i daresay it is the person who is strong (or weak) about his principles.  the same cannot be said about principles per se, unless we are referring to anthropic, i.e. human friendly principles, which refer to the physical world as we know it and not to laws of justice that this thread is all about.     

supremacy of the law?  sure, laws of the land should be deemed supreme, no matter how imperfect these are and no matter that one country’s supreme laws need not necessarily be so in another, as in the case of the death penalty. 

infallability?  that word does not exist.  the nearest that there is though is infallibility, which as we may know does not apply to laws made by man.  that’s why we have congress, a very human one, that’s tasked to pass, revise or amend laws.  infallible congress is not.  so are the laws it passes.

if laws were infallible, europe would still be having the divine right of kings, the u.s. would still have slavery, quartering would still be done in scotland ala-braveheart, and non-virgin single women would still be meted with the death penalty according to the mosaic law.

infallibility at its most basic is the “inability to err in teaching revealed truth,” upheld in catholic teachings as based on scriptural and traditional proofs.  man-made laws do not fall in this category.




   P.....H........E.......W..... wa na ko say Ms. Isle!!!! :D ;D :D kujawan man pud ko ani imong explanation :D ;D :D

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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #62 on: September 21, 2010, 11:46:38 PM »
truly strong, whatever your “strong” here means, lorenz.  clearly the word is used as an adjective of principles, and thus does it fall flat.  i daresay it is the person who is strong (or weak) about his principles.  the same cannot be said about principles per se, unless we are referring to anthropic, i.e. human friendly principles, which refer to the physical world as we know it and not to laws of justice that this thread is all about.    

supremacy of the law?  sure, laws of the land should be deemed supreme, no matter how imperfect these are and no matter that one country’s supreme laws need not necessarily be so in another, as in the case of the death penalty.  

infallability?  that word does not exist.  the nearest that there is though is infallibility, which as we may know does not apply to laws made by man.  that’s why we have congress, a very human one, that’s tasked to pass, revise or amend laws.  infallible congress is not.  so are the laws it passes.

if laws were infallible, europe would still be having the divine right of kings, the u.s. would still have slavery, quartering would still be done in scotland ala-braveheart, and non-virgin single women would still be meted with the death penalty according to the mosaic law.

infallibility at its most basic is the “inability to err in teaching revealed truth,” upheld in catholic teachings as based on scriptural and traditional proofs.  man-made laws do not fall in this category.




I was referring to Magbalantay's answer to your question; which asked him if he would still be a proponent for death penalty if his relatives were killers and subject to lethal punishment. His answer, which literally was:

  yes, Ms. Isle, I will. Sakit man but I have to. Let justice reign no matter what it takes. ;D

His answer is quite idealistic so to say in the sense in that it resembles the political machinations of the Old French Revolutionaries such as Marat and Robbespierre who believed in the Supremacy of the Democratic and Republican Laws of the newly established French Republic. I likened it to that in my mind because the former two did not believe in mercy for those whom violated the citizens of France, and have victimized the unrepresented rights of the citizenry, which he was referring to those members of the Aristocracy and of the Royal Person. The way Magbalantay answered, which did not show partiality to even his own members who were hypothetical criminals in the case, represented the epitome of the idea that the Law is not only Sacred, but almost Infallible when being enforced. (This of course does not consider when a Law is being ammended). The resolution of his will in standing ground to support a Death Penalty was observed, and I admired how he placed the Law Above the notion of partiality and corruption; no exceptions (family, friends, colleagues should be judged equally under the law). My comment was addressed to him in my admiration for his principle.

Yes you are right in the fact that there are two kinds of Laws: 1. Human Law , 2. Divine Law

 :)


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Scarb

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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #63 on: September 22, 2010, 12:05:18 AM »
   yes, Ms. Isle, I will. Sakit man but I have to. Let justice reign no matter what it takes. ;D

Whoa mora man ka ni Charles Bronson sa film nya nga self-administered justice ba to?

Hambina ayaw sa imong mga kamot ang Hustisya  ;)

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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #64 on: September 22, 2010, 12:28:24 AM »
Whoa mora man ka ni Charles Bronson sa film nya nga self-administered justice ba to?

Hambina ayaw sa imong mga kamot ang Hustisya  ;)

Blue, if you read the conversation, Magbalantay was not saying that he would administer justice, but his answer was in response to Isles' question of: if your relatives/loved ones were convicted and proven guilty of murder, would you still support the death penalty?

Magbalantay, unmoved and showing no partiality to his friends and relatives convicted of murder (mind you this is a hypothetical situation) supports the death penalty.

Not that he was the one administering justice; he would support the Law's administration of justice. Again, the tone of his answer reiterates the Old French Revolutionary notion of the Supremacy of the Law & Justice.

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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #65 on: September 22, 2010, 01:38:13 AM »
Blue, if you read the conversation, Magbalantay was not saying that he would administer justice, but his answer was in response to Isles' question of: if your relatives/loved ones were convicted and proven guilty of murder, would you still support the death penalty?

Magbalantay, unmoved and showing no partiality to his friends and relatives convicted of murder
 (mind you this is a hypothetical situation) supports the death penalty.

Not that he was the one administering justice; he would support the Law's administration of justice. Again, the tone of his answer reiterates the Old French Revolutionary notion of the Supremacy of the Law & Justice.

Phew..whoa Bran² have to read the previous posts..i standstill corrected-bow. ;)

Well, to focus the line "self-administered justice" when im talking 'bout Charles Bronson film..he was the one who punished the killer of his family (so far so good as my memory,me dictates ) jehehe

As regards to ds thread we are discussing in here...sorry to disagree  ;) "No to Death Penalty"

and...here are my reason as follows:

-Thou shalt not kill..known as one of the ten commandments...are we allowed to erase one ?-(religious aspect)
-Supremacy of Law & Justice? oh je..doncha know that theres a Supreme of all the supremes,theres one Judge of all the judges?

-It´s very difficult to decide whether somebody should live or die. Judges are not always competent or independent. (sowe)
   So it could happen that innocent people are executed. The death penalty is an irreversible punishment.
      Once carried out it can never be corrected.

-What about Life imprisonement ? It has the same effect.
    They would spend their whole life there so it would be a moral or emotional punishment.
      They would have to suffer from their guilty conscience.
        Sometimes it happens that murderers become religious in this time.
           The modern view is that criminals should improve during their time in prison.
- Life imprisonment is more expensive than executions (as to financial statistic)
    but costs shouldn´t really matter when it comes to issue of life and death.
-  I think that the death penalty is not always fair.
      The kind of punishment is often determined not only by the nature of the crime
          but also by the social and ethnic background,
             the financial means or the political opinion of the defendant.
Friends and relatives of the victims often want to take revenge on the murderer. They probably wish for the death of the culprit.

-  Sometimes people have been imprisoned for ten years and after this time it was found out that they were not guilty.
           It was a mistake.  :(  What if,it was a death penalty? unZaon man kobkobon sa lungon pakabuhion pag-Uzob? awooh..!

And to you my dear Bran²..you learn medicine @ present..am pretty sure for the main purpose to save life or to find ways for a  matter of "prolong ones life", to maintain what GoD has given to mankind "Live on earth" and be ready when the Lord comes.
Ach soo, you are in favor of death penalty? Whatta irony..! tsk³

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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #66 on: September 22, 2010, 04:55:10 AM »
As always Ms. Blue, I am always enjoying reading your posts (because it has so much material and many points). For me, in general, Life is important especially those who need to be saved or are in medical need. No question on that. However, when it comes to dealing with hard lining criminals (serial rapists, serial killers etc) I have no compassion for that. There is a difference between a patient who comes to the physician for medical aid and is therefore given medical treatment to prolong life. In regards to the convicted murder and serial rapist, they have done the antithesis. They have taken lives, and destroyed lives. There is a significant dichotomy between the two. One is helpless and comes to the physician and surrenders their care to you to be taken cared of. The other, is the absolute antithesis, the latter is the one that has silenced a life, sexually molested a human life and taken advantage of those who could not defend themselves.


That said, I respect your view, Ms. Blue. (look it even rhymed!)  :)

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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #67 on: September 22, 2010, 05:17:30 AM »
 Let the criminals be rotten in jail  ;) jeje


 To kill a Killer doesnt make a scrap of difference. (ako ra pod na 1 cents gud) hee³

 

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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #68 on: September 22, 2010, 05:44:11 AM »
Let the criminals be rotten in jail  ;) jeje


 To kill a Killer doesnt make a scrap of difference. (ako ra pod na 1 cents gud) hee³

 

ha ha ha, i love that saying. ;)

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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #69 on: September 22, 2010, 06:45:43 AM »
    Scarb, korek ka sa pag quote sa bible....THOU SHALT NOT KILL! Mau nga against ka sa death penalty. Nah, unsaon man ang napatay?  Unsa man ang justice ilang makuha? Pra makakuha tawn ang victim ug justice, dapat ba nga ang nakapaty buhion, so prisohon lang? Luoya pud tong namatay! Criminals are liabilities to society you know that, which in most cases sulod-gawas nang uban sa prisohan, so, when would this end?  ;D ;D ;D

     If convicted sila ug life sentence, parehas ra na sa death penalty 'cause it's like also killing the criminals little by little. Kas-ahon na lang pra maminusan na sila sa prisohan. naghuot lang na sila diha ;D ;D

    

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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #70 on: September 22, 2010, 07:35:48 AM »
@Mags para nako maau pa madugtä sila sa prisohan kysa hinanaling kamatayon or silot thru lethal injection.

Life imprisonment ,the same effect ra lagi sa death penalty. ;)



You have ur points too- salute..!


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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #71 on: September 22, 2010, 09:26:48 AM »
@Mags para nako maau pa madugtä sila sa prisohan kysa hinanaling kamatayon or silot thru lethal injection.

Life imprisonment ,the same effect ra lagi sa death penalty. ;)



You have ur points too- salute..!


      ;D ;D ;D lain pud diay ka manimaus ha? hinay-hinay? murag magpinitensya? ;D ;D ;D

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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #72 on: September 22, 2010, 12:10:21 PM »
His answer is quite idealistic so to say in the sense in that it resembles the political machinations of the Old French Revolutionaries such as Marat and Robbespierre who believed in the Supremacy of the Democratic and Republican Laws of the newly established French Republic. I likened it to that in my mind because the former two did not believe in mercy for those whom violated the citizens of France, and have victimized the unrepresented rights of the citizenry, which he was referring to those members of the Aristocracy and of the Royal Person.
 :)

jean paul marat and maximillien robespierre (and georges danton) were the three most important men of the french revolution who unleased the reign of terror.

how principled were marat and robespierre then?
  
was it idealism or bloodthirstiness that led marat to attack just about anyone with influence and for robespierre who, after doing away with royalty and aristocracy, went on to execute anyone at the mere suspicion of being counter-revolutionaries, without extensive trials?

i believe they were radicals rather than men of principles.
  
“Marat's radical denunciations of counter-revolutionaries supported much of the violence that occurred during the wartime phases of the French Revolution.”
 
if marat were principled, his murderer charlotte corday (guillotined on 17 July 1793 for the murder) must also be just as principled.  she testified during her four-day trial that she “…killed one man to save 100,000”.

historians note that as many as 40,000 accused prisoners may have been summarily executed (at the guillotine) without trial or died awaiting trial under the committee of public safety controlled by robespierre.

robespierre “instigated the Terror and the deaths of his peers as a measure of ensuring a Republic of Virtue; but his ideals went beyond the needs and wants of the people of France.  He became a threat to what he had wanted to ensure and the result was his downfall.”

robespierre is summed up as a “bright young theorist but out of his depth in the matter of experience”.

sometimes, extreme idealism blinds such that it may lead to just plain extremism.

i dare not be idealistic about the death penalty.
 ;D

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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #73 on: September 22, 2010, 01:36:13 PM »
The way Magbalantay answered, which did not show partiality to even his own members who were hypothetical criminals in the case, represented the epitome of the idea that the Law is not only Sacred, but almost Infallible when being enforced. (This of course does not consider when a Law is being ammended).
 :)

what you mean then is that the law cannot be broken, and thus it’s almost infallible, though not quite infallible.  (this reminds me of police inspector javert in les miserables  who is too obsessed with ‘the law’.)

there's the letter of the law.  but then, there's also the spirit of the law.
 ;D





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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #74 on: September 22, 2010, 01:47:23 PM »
Hambina ayaw sa imong mga kamot ang Hustisya  ;)

Hinunoa, gamita ang imong mga kamot paghinol sa Katahom...  

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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #75 on: September 22, 2010, 01:50:54 PM »
Whoa mora man ka ni Charles Bronson sa film nya nga self-administered justice ba to?

Gidili ang self-administered justice. Ang gitugot mao ang self-administered satisfaction.  ;D

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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #76 on: September 22, 2010, 01:56:48 PM »
The resolution of his will in standing ground to support a Death Penalty was observed, and I admired how he placed the Law Above the notion of partiality and corruption; no exceptions (family, friends, colleagues should be judged equally under the law).

an admiration that is well-placed, i believe.  i hope you will also admire those who are not in favor of the death penalty but who nevertheless will have their own loved ones as perpetrators of crime (heaven forbid!) imprisoned for life, no exceptions.  it’s the same stand on one’s principles of meting out punishment for grave crimes even if the manner on which such principles rest may differ.
 ;D


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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #77 on: September 22, 2010, 02:16:59 PM »
My comment was addressed to him in my admiration for his principle.
 :)

and i hope you didn’t mind that i commented on your admiration for his principle.  i take it that your piece isn’t private (otherwise, it would have been conveyed through pm) and it's for everyone to comment on as well, including me.

now let me thank you for the chance to get through this whole maze.
 :D



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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #78 on: September 23, 2010, 01:59:26 AM »
an admiration that is well-placed, i believe.  i hope you will also admire those who are not in favor of the death penalty but who nevertheless will have their own loved ones as perpetrators of crime (heaven forbid!) imprisoned for life, no exceptions.  it’s the same stand on one’s principles of meting out punishment for grave crimes even if the manner on which such principles rest may differ.
 ;D


Of course, standing ground and accepting the dispensation of justice (life imprisonment or death penalty) is something to be admired. A man of principle is a man to be admired, imo.



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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #79 on: September 23, 2010, 02:01:02 AM »
and i hope you didn’t mind that i commented on your admiration for his principle.  i take it that your piece isn’t private (otherwise, it would have been conveyed through pm) and it's for everyone to comment on as well, including me.

now let me thank you for the chance to get through this whole maze.
 :D



Yes my dear Isles, it was a public statement addressed to Magbalantay. Of course, don't you know that I enjoy my interaction with you? You're an amazing intellectual, tho i may not agree with some of your points, i am titillated in my discussions with you. Objective/subjective reasoning & thought always manifests.


 ;)

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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #80 on: September 23, 2010, 02:13:20 AM »
jean paul marat and maximillien robespierre (and georges danton) were the three most important men of the french revolution who unleased the reign of terror.

how principled were marat and robespierre then?
 
was it idealism or bloodthirstiness that led marat to attack just about anyone with influence and for robespierre who, after doing away with royalty and aristocracy, went on to execute anyone at the mere suspicion of being counter-revolutionaries, without extensive trials?

i believe they were radicals rather than men of principles.
 
“Marat's radical denunciations of counter-revolutionaries supported much of the violence that occurred during the wartime phases of the French Revolution.”
 
if marat were principled, his murderer charlotte corday (guillotined on 17 July 1793 for the murder) must also be just as principled.  she testified during her four-day trial that she “…killed one man to save 100,000”.

historians note that as many as 40,000 accused prisoners may have been summarily executed (at the guillotine) without trial or died awaiting trial under the committee of public safety controlled by robespierre.

robespierre “instigated the Terror and the deaths of his peers as a measure of ensuring a Republic of Virtue; but his ideals went beyond the needs and wants of the people of France.  He became a threat to what he had wanted to ensure and the result was his downfall.”

robespierre is summed up as a “bright young theorist but out of his depth in the matter of experience”.

sometimes, extreme idealism blinds such that it may lead to just plain extremism.

i dare not be idealistic about the death penalty.
 ;D

 Anatole France coined the epoch as, "The Reign of Terror", however , in defense of the Republicans and the Jacobins the terror was originally coined to address the terror the aristocrats and members of the Royal Person experienced when tried and judged before the Revolutionary fervor of the people, whom mere months before were nothing but drones under the foot of the former King of France, now referred to by Marat as 'Citizen Capet'.

The spirit of the Revolution encompassed the idea of Egalitarianism, Fraternity, Equality under the Law. And with this required the justice for the People (referring to the political mass); in the spiritual and purist sense, Marat and Robespierre were and are the Fathers of the French Republic, and their ultra-patriotism allowed no mercy for members of the royal person and the aristocracy as well as those who were judged as traitors and opponents of the Revolution.

Considering the time period and the political upheaval the Revolution caused, France was at war with Absolutist Austria-Hungary (Hapsbrug Empire, the empire that the late Queen Marie Antoinette came from), The Spanish Empire, The British Empire and parts of the German States of the Rhine, which were allied to Prussia. France and the Revolution was in a state of paranoia and to protect the national interest , as well as the continuation of the Spirit of Revolution (which did spread and led to the the liberalization of Austria, Spain, England and the German states & Prussia). Marat and Robespierre's actions can be understood considering the fact that they were the first leaders of a powerful country to successfully abolish the aged-old monarchical system , which had enslaved the people and ruled over them in unwarranted classed society & old superstitions.

Robespierre and Marat literally died for the revolution, whose contribution is unquestionable in regards to the transformation of France from a backward Absolutist Monarchy into the present French Republic, which later exported the same revolutionary idealism throughout continental Europe.

The transformation of France from Monarchy to Republic was, indeed, no easy task.

 

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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #81 on: September 23, 2010, 02:21:12 AM »
II. His Last Speech
 
Maximilien Marie Isidore Robespierre (1758–94)
 
(1794)


THE ENEMIES 1  of the Republic call me tyrant! Were I such they would grovel at my feet. I should gorge them with gold, I should grant them impunity for their crimes, and they would be grateful. Were I such, the kings we have vanquished, far from denouncing Robespierre, would lend me their guilty support. There would be a covenant between them and me. Tyranny must have tools. But the enemies of tyranny—whither does their path tend? To the tomb, and to immortality! What tyrant is my protector? To what faction do I belong? Yourselves! What faction, since the beginning of the Revolution, has crushed and annihilated so many detected traitors? You, the people—our principles—are that faction! A faction to which I am devoted, and against which all the scoundrelism of the day is banded!   
  
  The confirmation of the Republic has been my object; and I know that the Republic can be established only on the eternal basis of morality. Against me, and against those who hold kindred principles, the league is formed. My life? Oh, my life I abandon without a regret! I have seen the Past; and I foresee the Future. What friend of his country would wish to survive the moment when he could no longer serve it—when he could no longer defend innocence against oppression? Wherefore should I continue in an order of things, where intrigue eternally triumphs over truth; where justice is mocked; where passions the most abject, or fears the most absurd, override the sacred interests of humanity? In witnessing the multitude of vices which the torrent of the Revolution has rolled in turbid communion with its civic virtues, I confess that I have sometimes feared that I should be sullied, in the eyes of posterity, by the impure neighborhood of unprincipled men, who had thrust themselves into association with the sincere friends of humanity; and I rejoice that these conspirators against my country have now, by their reckless rage, traced deep the line of demarcation between themselves and all true men.     

  Question history, and learn how all the defenders of liberty, in all times, have been overwhelmed by calumny. But their traducers died also. The good and the bad disappear alike from the earth; but in very different conditions. O Frenchmen! O my countrymen! Let not your enemies, with their desolating doctrines, degrade your souls, and enervate your virtues! No, Chaumette, no! Death is not “an eternal sleep!” Citizens! efface from the tomb that motto, graven by sacrilegious hands, which spreads over all nature a funereal crape, takes from oppressed innocence its support, and affronts the beneficent dispensation of death! Inscribe rather thereon these words: “Death is the commencement of immortality!” I leave to the oppressors of the people a terrible testament, which I proclaim with the independence befitting one whose career is so nearly ended; it is the awful truth: “Thou shalt die!”

http://www.bartleby.com/268/7/24.html



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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #82 on: September 24, 2010, 10:19:12 AM »
Robespierre and Marat literally died for the revolution, whose contribution is unquestionable in regards to the transformation of France from a backward Absolutist Monarchy into the present French Republic, which later exported the same revolutionary idealism throughout continental Europe.
 

i wouldn't deign to conclude that they died for the revolution as martyrs do.  it looks like they died also because of their power struggle.

"Robespierre's most serious rival was Danton.  During the Revolution Danton was seen by many as an alternative to Robespierre.  Danton had been in power two times during the Revolution.  First, he was made Minister of Justice in the interim government that succeeded the destruction of the monarchy, and secondly, as one of the original members of the first Committee of Public Safety.  He had extensive friendships, a considerable personal following and unimpeachable Revolutionary credentials.

Of all the men in the Revolution, Danton was undoubtedly the most admired by the public.  The fact that such a man as Danton could be overthrown by the ruses and guile of Robespierre filled the National Convention with terror.  No one could perceive himself free from accusation.

Robespierre was a man full of pride and cunning, and an envious and vindictive being who surmounted obstacles and circumstances most appalling.  His steadiness and control helped him ascend to the Committee of Public Safety, where he openly aspired to tyranny and dictatorship.   Robespierre had always feared Danton, because he was the only rival who angered and annoyed him.  Robespierre, with the ability or luck to preserve his own popularity, seized the moment to destroy Danton, but in reality he destroyed himself."

-(Aaron D. Purcell, Danton vs. Robespierre: The Quest for Revolutionary Power)


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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #83 on: September 24, 2010, 11:08:18 AM »

quotations on the french revolution of 1789-1799:

Citizens, we have reason to fear that the Revolution, like Saturn, will successively devour all its children, and finally produce despotism, with the calamities that accompany it. 
(Original French: Citoyens, il est à craindre que la révolution, comme Saturne, ne dévore successivement tous ses enfants et n’engendre enfin le despotisme avec les calamités qui l’accompagnent. )
         
          -Pierre Victurnien Vergniaud, 1753–1793, lawyer/statesman, a significant figure of the french revolution, guillotined 1793


Revolution is like Saturn, it devours its own children.
(Original German: Die Revolution ist wie Saturn, sie frißt ihre eignen Kinder.)
         
          -Georg Büchner,1813–1837, German dramatist, Danton’s Death, Act I (1835)


more:

The consequences of things are not always proportionate to the apparent magnitude of those events that have produced them. Thus the American Revolution, from which little was expected, produced much; but the French Revolution, from which much was expected, produced little.
     
          -Charles Caleb Colton, 1780-1832, English cleric


The French Revolution is the ultimate modernist statement.  Destroy everything.  Don't build on the past.  There is no past.

          -John Corigliano, 1938, American composer


The French Revolution gave birth to no artists but only to a great journalist, Desmoulins, and to an under-the-counter writer, Sade.  The only poet of the times was the guillotine.
         
          -Albert Camus, 1913-1960, French Algerian philosopher and author


the best: ;D  

It is too soon to say.

          -Zhou Enlai, 1898-1976, first PROC premier, when asked what he thought of the French Revolution of 1789, as quoted in Simon Schama's book Citizens: A Chronicle of the French Revolution  (1989)

 






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Lorenzo

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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #84 on: September 24, 2010, 11:14:55 AM »
Supremacy and Infallible Statement; which sums the glorious triumph of the European Enlightenment.



April 24, 1793 - Declaration des droits de l'homme
"Any law which violates the inalienable rights of man is essentially unjust and tyrannical; it is not a law at all."
"Any institution which does not suppose the people good, and the magistrate corruptible, is evil."



Maximilien Robespierre 1758 - 1794


Robespierre is speaking in regards to the old machinations of the Absolute Monarchy in France and to those in continental Europe that would soon come crashing down by the sound of Revolutionary fervor.  ;D

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Lorenzo

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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #85 on: September 24, 2010, 11:17:29 AM »
and a personal favorite,




“The only thing that one really knows about human nature is that it changes. Change is the one quality we can predicate of it. The systems that fail are those that rely on the permanency of human nature, and not on its growth and development. The error of Louis XIV was that he thought human nature would always be the same. The result of his error was the French Revolution. It was an admirable result.”


-Oscar Wilde

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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #86 on: September 24, 2010, 11:18:54 AM »
NO. I don't trust the justice system in the Philippines.

If the US court can send an innocent man to jail and the guilty to continue walking in the street, how much more in the Philippines when the system is corrupt.



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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #87 on: September 24, 2010, 11:23:15 AM »


Justice has its anger, my lord Bishop, and the wrath of justice is an element of progress. Whatever else may be said of it, the French Revolution was the greatest step forward by mankind since the coming of Christ. It was unfinished, I agree, but still it was sublime. It released the untapped springs of society; it softened hearts, appeased, tranquilized, enlightened, and set flowing through the world the tides of civilization. It was good. The French Revolution was the anointing of humanity.

Victor Hugo




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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #88 on: September 24, 2010, 11:23:58 AM »
THE GOALS OF THE FRENCH REVOLUTION

What is the end of our revolution? The tranquil enjoyment of liberty and equality; the reign of that eternal justice, the laws of which are graven, not on marble or stone, but in the hearts of men, even in the heart of the slave who has forgotten them, and in that of the tyrant who disowns them.

We wish that order of things where all the low and cruel passions are enchained, all the beneficent and generous passions awakened by the laws; where ambition subsists in a desire to deserve glory and serve the country: where distinctions grow out of the system of equality, where the citizen submits to the authority of the magistrate, the magistrate obeys that of the people, and the people are governed by a love of justice; where the country secures the comfort of each individual, and where each individual prides himself on the prosperity and glory of his country; where every soul expands by a free communication of republican sentiments, and by the necessity of deserving the esteem of a great people: where the arts serve to embellish that liberty which gives them value and support, and commerce is a source of public wealth and not merely of immense riches to a few individuals.

We wish in our country that morality may be substituted for egotism, probity for false honour, principles for usages, duties for good manners, the empire of reason for the tyranny of fashion, a contempt of vice for a contempt of misfortune, pride for insolence, magnanimity for vanity, the love of glory for the love of money, good people for good company, merit for intrigue, genius for wit, truth for tinsel show, the attractions of happiness for the ennui of sensuality, the grandeur of man for the littleness of the great, a people magnanimous, powerful, happy, for a people amiable, frivolous and miserable; in a word, all the virtues and miracles of a Republic instead of all the vices and absurdities of a Monarchy.

We wish, in a word, to fulfill the intentions of nature and the destiny of man, realize the promises of philosophy, and acquit providence of a long reign of crime and tyranny. That France, once illustrious among enslaved nations, may, by eclipsing the glory of all free countries that ever existed, become a model to nations, a terror to oppressors, a consolation to the oppressed, an ornament of the universe and that, by sealing the work with our blood, we may at least witness the dawn of the bright day of universal happiness. This is our ambition, - this is the end of our efforts.

Source: M. Robespierre, "On the Principles of Political Morality" (1794)

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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #89 on: September 24, 2010, 11:28:29 AM »
If virtue be the spring of a popular government in times of peace, the spring of that government during a revolution is virtue combined with terror: virtue, without which terror is destructive; terror, without which virtue is impotent. Terror is only justice prompt, severe and inflexible; it is then an emanation of virtue; it is less a distinct principle than a natural consequence of the general principle of democracy, applied to the most pressing wants of the country. ... The government in a revolution is the despotism of liberty against tyranny. Is force only intended to protect crime? Is not the lightning of heaven made to blast vice exalted?

The law of self-preservation, with every being whether physical or moral, is the first law of nature. ... The protection of government is only due to peaceable citizens; and all citizens in the republic are republicans. The royalists, the conspirators, are strangers, or rather enemies. Is not this dreadful contest, which liberty maintains against tyranny, indivisible? Are not the internal enemies the allies of those in the exterior? The assassins who lay waste the interior; the intriguers who purchase the consciences of the delegates of the people: the traitors who sell them; the mercenary libellants paid to dishonor the cause of the people, to smother public virtue, to fan the flame of civil discord, and bring about a political counter revolution by means of a moral one; all these men, are they less culpable or less dangerous than the tyrants whom they serve?

Source: M. Robespierre, "On the Principles of Political Morality" (1794)



This great purity of the French revolution's basis, the very sublimity of its objective, is precisely what causes both our strength and our weakness. Our strength, because it gives to us truth's ascendancy over imposture, and the rights of the public interest over private interests; our weakness, because it rallies all vicious men against us, all those who in their hearts contemplated despoiling the people and all those who intend to let it be despoiled with impunity, both those who have rejected freedom as a personal calamity and those who have embraced the revolution as a career and the Republic as prey. ... The two opposing spirits that have been represented in a struggle to rule nature might be said to be fighting in this great period of human history to fix irrevocably the world's destinies, and France is the scene of this fearful combat. Without, all the tyrants encircle you; within, all tyranny's friends conspire; they will conspire until hope is wrested from crime. We must smother the internal and external enemies of the Republic or perish with it; now in this situation, the first maxim of your policy ought to be to lead the people by reason and the people's enemies by terror.

Society owes protection only to peaceable citizens; the only citizens in the Republic are the republicans. For it, the royalists, the conspirators are only strangers or, rather, enemies. This terrible war waged by liberty against tyranny- is it not indivisible? Are the enemies within not the allies of the enemies without? The assassins who tear our country apart, the intriguers who buy the consciences that hold the people's mandate; the traitors who sell them; the mercenary pamphleteers hired to dishonor the people's cause, to kill public virtue, to stir up the fire of civil discord, and to prepare political counterrevolution by moral counterrevolution-are all those men less guilty or less dangerous than the tyrants whom they serve?

Source: M. Robespierre, "On the Moral and Political Principles of Domestic Policy" (1794)

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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #90 on: September 24, 2010, 11:47:35 AM »
We must smother the internal and external enemies of the Republic or perish with it; now in this situation, the first maxim of your policy ought to be to lead the people by reason and the people's enemies by terror.

and thus did robespierre smother his rivals to power.  what a principle on morality. ;D

Revolutions eat their children; ask Robespierre, Trotsky and Liberia's Charles Taylor.  And South Africa is certainly no exception.  The lust for more power and money brings even the most self-righteous to a fall.  Yesterday's terrorist is today's freedom fighter.  It was never about democracy, only unadulterated power. (Albert Brenner, Revolutions Eat Their Children)




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islander

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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #91 on: September 24, 2010, 11:53:58 AM »

When passing in front of Robespierre's house, on the way to the guillotine, Danton rose from his fatal seat, turned toward Robespierre's house and said, "You will follow us shortly. Your house shall be beaten down and sowed with salt."  Not content with seeing his enemies pass his house, Robespierre followed them to the place of execution.

At the foot of the scaffold, Danton exclaimed, "Oh my wife, my well-beloved, I shall never see thee more." And, interrupting himself, he said, "Danton no weakness!"(60) His last moments were best described by an eyewitness:

Terrible picture!  Time will never erase it from my memory.  I perfectly comprehend the feeling which inspired Danton to utter his last words, those terrible words, that I could not hear, but which were repeated to me in trembling horror and admiration.  'Do not forget, above all,' he said to the executioner, 'do not forget to show my head to the people; it is good to look at.'

The executioner obeyed him and showed Danton's head on all four sides of the scaffold.  At the age of thirty-four, Danton died.  For five years Danton had been the champion of the Revolution, but the forces of Robespierre had given Danton the image of a traitor.

Even if Robespierre's joy was complete at the very moment when Danton's head fell, he is said by some mechanical instinct to have put his hand to his neck, as if to make sure that his head was on his shoulders.  Since Danton's head had fallen, Robespierre was making no mistake in believing that his life was now, more than ever, in danger.

            -Aaron D. Purcell, Danton Versus Robespierre: The Quest for Revolutionary Power






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hubag bohol

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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #92 on: October 09, 2010, 06:23:30 PM »
(PNA) -- A bishop has reiterated his support for the revival of the death penalty.

Bishop Efraim Tendero, national director, Philippine Council of Evangelical Churches (PCEC), expressed support on the proposal of Senator Miguel Zubiri to reimpose death penalty in the country.

“We are in favor of death penalty as it is biblical,” he said.

However, he said that the measure must be balanced by a reliable judicial system.

In 2006, the group criticized the decision of then President Gloria Macapagal-Arroyo to abolish the death penalty.

The religious group said they support the imposition of death penalty, noting that capital crimes which lead to the loss of other lives deserve capital punishment.

“We uphold the principle of life for life. The punishment must fit the crime. The penalty must be commensurate to the gravity of the offense,” the group said in their statement four years ago.

Unsa pud kaha ang method of execution nga ilang gusto? Garrote?







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Lorenzo

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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #93 on: October 10, 2010, 01:05:38 PM »
^ that method is too cruel, imho. The guillotine is better: Quick & Painless.
The crashing of the blade will sever the spinal cord at the level of the C1&C2 , and upon impact, immediately severing the central nervous system's afferent and efferent signals to the rest of the body.

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luckybelle

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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #94 on: October 10, 2010, 09:02:36 PM »
^ that method is too cruel, imho. The guillotine is better: Quick & Painless.
The crashing of the blade will sever the spinal cord at the level of the C1&C2 , and upon impact, immediately severing the central nervous system's afferent and efferent signals to the rest of the body.

Hay naku lethal injection nalang... kasakit pud ani.

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hubag bohol

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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #95 on: October 10, 2010, 11:13:18 PM »
Hay naku lethal injection nalang... kasakit pud ani.

Mga baje sagad injection ang gusto...

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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #96 on: October 10, 2010, 11:48:06 PM »
Mga baje sagad injection ang gusto...

lethal?  just as deadly?

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luckybelle

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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #97 on: October 11, 2010, 12:25:54 AM »
lethal?  just as deadly?

Oo, pero at least dili mafeel ang blade.

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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #98 on: October 11, 2010, 12:28:55 AM »
Unsa pud kaha ang method of execution nga ilang gusto? Garrote?







unsa kaha ning tuiga?

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milyonaryo na si vito nakakuha ug perlas sa isla berde...

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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #99 on: October 11, 2010, 12:53:10 AM »
Oo, pero at least dili mafeel ang blade.

hehehe, claro kaajo 'maluuyon' ka, Belle. I can assure you that by the velocity of the blade's downward direction, then taking into consideration the thinness of the blade, the severance of the spinal cord at the C1 & C2 vertebrae will completely cut off all pain fibers traversing to the brain (CNS). Respiratory , cardiovascular, renal, and all other visceral organs will immediately shut down without neural interface. I assure you death by guillotine is quite merciful, and quick. For the one being executed, it is quick and painless. For those watching, it seems gruesome because of the spilling of blood. The latter is nothing but psychological. For the one being executed, it is the final and irreversible end.



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