Author Topic: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines  (Read 16298 times)

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Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« on: September 10, 2010, 08:31:50 AM »
(PNA) -- A bishop has reiterated his support for the revival of the death penalty.

Bishop Efraim Tendero, national director, Philippine Council of Evangelical Churches (PCEC), expressed support on the proposal of Senator Miguel Zubiri to reimpose death penalty in the country.

“We are in favor of death penalty as it is biblical,” he said.

However, he said that the measure must be balanced by a reliable judicial system.

In 2006, the group criticized the decision of then President Gloria Macapagal-Arroyo to abolish the death penalty.

The religious group said they support the imposition of death penalty, noting that capital crimes which lead to the loss of other lives deserve capital punishment.

“We uphold the principle of life for life. The punishment must fit the crime. The penalty must be commensurate to the gravity of the offense,” the group said in their statement four years ago.

Last week, Senator Zubiri filed Senate Bill No. 2383 seeking to revive death penalty as it would help deter the commission of heinous crimes in the country.

“Let us restore the death penalty for heinous crimes. I always say, if you do the crime, you do the time. Now I say, if you do a heinous crime, then you can say goodbye to your time," the lawmaker said.

The bill was filed in the midst of the bloody hostage-taking incident at the Quirino Grandstand in Manila on August 23, which left eight Hong Kong nationals dead, including Filipino hostage taker Rolando Mendoza. (PNA)

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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #1 on: September 10, 2010, 08:35:25 AM »
Interesting. How do the members of Tubag Bohol Dot Com feel about this?

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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #2 on: September 10, 2010, 08:38:41 AM »
yes to death penalty. death penalty for convicted corrupt filipino politicians. death penalty for rapists, pedophiles, child molesters.

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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #3 on: September 10, 2010, 08:48:31 AM »
I agree that death penalty should be enacted for hardcore criminals; however, there should be a viable judicial system so that innocents should not be condemned to death for crimes they did not commit.



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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #4 on: September 11, 2010, 07:26:11 AM »
Agreed!
It need to be revived to curve down the appetite of those
  voracious cold-blooded murderers.
That is after proven guilty based on evidences and testimonies
   from the witnesses.
It's Biblical and God himself imposed the death penalty as
  written on the book of Genesis 9:5 and 6...

"And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the
  hand of every beast will I require it, and  at the hand of man
  of every man's brother will I require the life of man"

"Whoso sheddedth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed;
  for in the image of God made he man"



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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2010, 11:45:24 PM »
It's really hard to say that the people of god themselves, tried promoting this kind death penalty.  I I were to ask, I beg to disagree.


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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #6 on: September 14, 2010, 02:01:34 AM »
One of the ten commandments states;
  "Thou shalt not kill"

This commandment from God is for the whole
  anthropological race, we are all commanded to obey...
    but for those who disobey will suffer the consequences of their own actions.

Death penalty was instituted by God for disobeying such commandment
  it has nothing to do with being one of the people of God or being a Christian,
  we are just following what God said to do.




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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #7 on: September 14, 2010, 10:51:20 AM »
Last week, Senator Zubiri filed Senate Bill No. 2383 seeking to revive death penalty as it would help deter the commission of heinous crimes in the country.

“Let us restore the death penalty for heinous crimes. I always say, if you do the crime, you do the time. Now I say, if you do a heinous crime, then you can say goodbye to your time," the lawmaker said.

uh, would that the lawmaker retain his braggadocio should it happen (heaven forbid!) that it's his own son who commits a heinous crime.

i am against capital punishment.  yes, it's biblical in the sense that it existed biblically and historically.   but must we also quote the bible in defense of polygamy or of slavery, because these are biblical?


may i share this excerpt on the death penalty from somewhere:

Albert Pierrepoint, the British hangman who resigned in 1956, said in his biography that he functioned on behalf of the State for what he thought “…was the most humane and the most dignified method of meting out death to a delinquent--- however justified or unjustified the allotment of death may be--- and on behalf of humanity I trained other nations to adopt the British system of execution.”  

His experience, he said, left him a bitter aftertaste.  He concluded thus, "…that I do not now believe that any one of the hundreds of executions I carried out has in any way acted as a deterrent against future murder.  Capital punishment, in my view, achieved nothing except revenge."

All legal systems are not too perfect as to be airtight and beyond loopholes.  Where there is capital punishment, so can there be a possible miscarriage of justice with appalling results since death is irreversible.  Another result is far from death penalty’s desired deterrent effect--- it creates martyrs as public sympathy may arise, as in the case of political prosecutions.  But nothing is more compelling against the death penalty as the possibility that the person executed has committed no crime.
 


going back to the bible (with apologies, as i'm no expert here), jesus christ himself was meted with the capital punishment at the time, which we all know as the crucifixion.  was it justified?







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statesville

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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #8 on: September 15, 2010, 12:43:57 AM »
The vicarious death of the Lord Jesus Christ on the cross was the fulfillment of the scripture.
The Lord Jesus has no sin, he offered His own blood to atone the sins of the whole world.

"So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him
    shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation"..Hebrew 9:27

"But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we yet sinners,
       Christ died for us"...Romans 5:8

Though the Judicial system we have in the Phils. is full of flaws and corruption and the poor oftentimes
  becomes the sacrificial lambs of the real  guilty ones but the Lord knows it all.

"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment"...Hebrew 9:27
     They might get away with crime on this world but not when they face the Lord;
          they will be in the unquenchable eternal flame of hell.




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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #9 on: September 15, 2010, 11:52:27 AM »
The vicarious death of the Lord Jesus Christ on the cross was the fulfillment of the scripture.
The Lord Jesus has no sin, he offered His own blood to atone the sins of the whole world.

"So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him
    shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation"..Hebrew 9:27

"But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we yet sinners,
       Christ died for us"...Romans 5:8


it's nice to be reminded of the religious perspective of christ's death.  from the historical perspective, though,  it was still capital punishment that he went through because he was accused of a crime, which for believers of course doesn't negate the fact that it was written in the scriptures.  needless to say, we cannot say the same thing of today's criminals whose deaths are state-sanctioned.

these points may be worth one's while:

       The story of Cain and Abel is a very clear manifestation of the seriousness of this commandment. After Cain had murdered his brother Abel, God punished him, not by death, but by banishing him from the land whereby Cain became a wanderer.  But, God also went ahead to “…put mark on him to prevent him from being killed by anyone who would meet him.” (Genesis 4:1- 16).

       By his own example, God denounces justice based on vengeance and violence.  “We cannot teach that killing is wrong by killing,” says Pope John Paul II.  The death penalty perpetuates the very evil it is trying to terminate. The practice and promotion of the death penalty is a reflection of the ‘culture of death’ of our times. The act of killing a person is intrinsically an evil, whether lawfully or unlawfully, by a murderer or by the state.  It is the reasons that make it appear different.

             -(from Religious Opposition to the Death Penalty, excerpted by Talk Left, The Politics of Crime, from the Monitor, Feb. 15, 2005)


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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #10 on: September 15, 2010, 11:58:38 AM »
more:

Capital punishment is in the same category as abortion and euthanasia. They are a premeditated taking away of human life, and are, therefore, immoral.  It is bad enough for society to lose one person, but worse to lose yet another, for whatever reason.  The end does not justify the means. Whether the death penalty is legal is no reason for resorting to it or to upholding it.

The death penalty has an inherent weakness of injustice, since the weak and poor are more easily proven guilty than the rich and more powerful. That people continue to kill in spite of the application of capital punishment as a deterrent is an indicator that we are only tackling a problem at the level of symptoms than of the root cause.  Killing by the state sets a bad precedence and promotes mob justice.  The modern state is better placed to curb crime than the old state.

Putting aside the religious perspective for a moment, the author also makes this excellent point:

Life imprisonment makes more sense.  The culprit can repent and even earn a living for the aggrieved family. Says Bishop David B. Thomson: “Capital punishment feeds the cycle of violence in society by pandering to a lust for revenge.  It brutalizes us and deadens our sensitivities to the precious nature of every single human life.” 

     -(from Religious Opposition to the Death Penalty, excerpted by Talk Left, The Politics of Crime, from the Monitor, Feb. 15, 2005, underscoring mine)


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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #11 on: September 15, 2010, 12:11:59 PM »
Though the Judicial system we have in the Phils. is full of flaws and corruption and the poor oftentimes
  becomes the sacrificial lambs of the real guilty ones but the Lord knows it all.

"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment"...Hebrew 9:27
     They might get away with crime on this world but not when they face the Lord;
          they will be in the unquenchable eternal flame of hell.

while the philippine judicial system is not perfect (it's not exactly "full of flaws and corruption" either) so is it in all other countries on this planet.  judicial systems are inherently imperfect by virtue of their being man-made, though some are better than others.

let the lord be the judge, then, on who gets to live or die, because "he knows it all".  there's the "unquenchable eternal flame of hell" waiting for those who "get away with crimes of this world" anyway.  why should the decision of punishment by death be in the hands of an imperfect judicial system?
 

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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #12 on: September 16, 2010, 05:49:47 AM »
Cain the first murderer was not killed by God but being punished with a mark --Gen 4:15
God did not set up the capital punishment during those time but it was instituted after the flood-- Gen 9:4, 5

At present generation, the mark of Cain is a symbol for those who refused to
   get saved and come to the saving knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ
    but rather take the mark of the beast.




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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #13 on: September 16, 2010, 08:01:38 AM »
  ;D ;D ;D wa man jud koi ikatampu ana oi....basta verse na sa bible ang paghisgutan. ;D ;D  

   Basta pra naho, okay ko nga i-restore ang death penalty. This will serve as a reminder oi sa mga tawong wai atay....... wai batikon....wai kasingkasing! They don't deserve to live.

     kanang mosakwahi sa death penalty, ibutang kuno ang inmong kaugalingon nga usa sa imong hinigugma, gi-murder. klaro2x jud ha ng gipatay siya anang tawhana. Naka witness pa jud ka. Oks ra ka?  Basta prisohon lang, okay na? :D

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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #14 on: September 16, 2010, 09:58:44 AM »
Too many false convictions happen for this to be just.

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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #15 on: September 16, 2010, 10:13:09 AM »
THE ULTIMATE PUNISHMENT: A DEFENSE
Ernest van den Haag

John M. Olin Professor of Jurisprudence and Public Policy, Fordham University.











In an average year about 20,000 homicides occur in the United States. Fewer than 300 convicted murderers are sentenced to death. But because no more than thirty murderers have been executed in any recent year, most convicts sentenced to death are likely to die of old age (1). Nonetheless, the death penalty looms large in discussions: it raises important moral questions independent of the number of executions (2).

The death penalty is our harshest punishment (3). It is irrevocable: it ends the existence of those punished, instead of temporarily imprisoning them. Further, although not intended to cause physical pain, execution is the only corporal punishment still applied to adults (4). These singular characteristics contribute to the perennial, impassioned controversy about capital punishment.

I. DISTRIBUTION

Consideration of the justice, morality, or usefulness, of capital punishment is often conflated with objections to its alleged discriminatory or capricious distribution among the guilty. Wrongly so. If capital punishment is immoral in se, no distribution cannot affect the quality of what is distributed, be it punishments or rewards. Discriminatory or capricious distribution thus could not justify abolition of the death penalty. Further, maldistribution inheres no more in capital punishment than in any other punishment.

Maldistribution between the guilty and the innocent is, by definition, unjust. But the injustice does not lie in the nature of the punishment. Because of the finality of the death penalty, the most grievous maldistribution occurs when it is imposed upon the innocent. However, the frequent allegations of discrimination and capriciousness refer to maldistribution among the guilty and not to the punishment of the innocent (5).

Maldistribution of any punishment among those who deserves it is irrelevant to its justice or morality. Even if poor or black convicts guilty of capital offenses suffer capital punishment, and other convicts equally guilty of the same crimes do not, a more equal distribution, however desirable, would merely be more equal. It would not be more just to the convicts under sentence of death.

Punishments are imposed on person, not on racial or economic groups. Guilt is personal. The only relevant question is: does the person to be executed deserve the punishment? Whether or not others who deserved the same punishment, whatever their economic or racial group, have avoided execution is irrelevant. If they have, the guilt if the executed convicts would not be diminished, nor would their punishment be less deserved. To put the issue starkly, if the death penalty were imposed on guilty blacks, but not on guilty whites, or, if it were imposed by a lottery among the guilty, this irrationally discriminatory or capricious distribution would neither make the penalty unjust, nor cause anyone to be unjustly punished, despite the undue impunity bestowed on others (6).

Equality, in short, seems morally less important than justice. And justice is independent of distributional inequalities. The ideal of equal justice demands that justice be equally distributed, not that it be replace by equality. Justice requires that as many of the guilty as possible be punished, regardless of whether others have avoided punishment. To let these others escape the deserved punishment does not do justice to them, or to society. But it is not unjust to those who could not escape.

These moral considerations are not meant to deny that irrational discrimination, or capriciousness, would be inconsistent with constitutional requirements. But I am satisfied that the Supreme Court has in fact provided for adherence to the constitutional requirement of equality as much as is possible. Some inequality is indeed unavoidable as a practical matter in any system (7). But, ultra posse nemo obligatur. (Nobody is bound beyond ability)(8).

Recent data reveal little direct racial discrimination in the sentencing of those arrested and convicted of murder. (9) The abrogation of the death penalty for rape has eliminated a major source of racial discrimination. Concededly, some discrimination based on the race of murder victims may exist; yet, this discrimination affects criminal murder victimizers in an unexpected way. Murderers of whites are thought more likely to be executed than murderers of blacks. Black victims, then, are less fully vindicated than white ones. However, because most black murderers kill blacks, black murderers are spared the death penalty more often than are white murderers. They fare better than most white murderers (10). The motivation behind unequal distribution of the death penalty may well have been to discriminate against blacks, but the result has favored them. Maldistribution is thus a straw man for empirical as well as analytical reasons.

II. MISCARRIAGES OF JUSTICE

In a recent survey Professors Hugo Adam Bedau and Michael Radelet found that 7000 persons were executed in the United States between 1900 and 1985 and that 35 were innocent of capital crimes (11). Among the innocents they list Sacco and Vanzetti as well as Ethel and Julius Rosenberg. Although their data may be questionable, I do not doubt that, over a long enough period, miscarriages of justice will occur even in capital cases.

Despite precautions, nearly all human activities, such as trucking, lighting, or construction, cost the lives of some innocent bystanders. We do not give up these activities, because the advantages, moral or material, outweigh the unintended losses (12). Analogously, for those who think the death penalty just, miscarriages of justice are offset by the moral benefits and the usefulness of doing justice. For those who think death penalty unjust even when it does not miscarry, miscarriages can hardly be decisive.

III. DETERRENCE

Despite much recent work, there has been no conclusive statistical demonstration that the death penalty is a better deterrent than are alternative punishments (13). However, deterrence is less than decisive for either side. Most abolitionists acknowledge that they would continue to favor abolition even if the death penalty were shown to deter more murders than alternatives could deter (14). Abolitionists appear to value the life of a convicted murderer or, at least, his non-execution, more highly than they value the lives of the innocent victims who might be spared by deterring prospective murderers.

Deterrence is not altogether decisive for me either. I would favor retention of the death penalty as retribution even if it were shown that the threat of execution could not deter prospective murderers not already deterred by the threat of imprisonment (15). Still, I believe the death penalty, because of its finality, is more feared than imprisonment, and deters some prospective murderers not deterred by the thought of imprisonment. Sparing the lives of even a few prospective victims by deterring their murderers is more important than preserving the lives of convicted murderers because o the possibility, or even the probability, tht executing them would not deter others. Whereas the live of the victims who might be saved are valuable, that of the murderer has only negative value, because of his crime. Surely the criminal law is meant to protect the lives of potential victims in preference to those of actual murderers.

Murder rates are determined by many factors; neither the severity nor the probability of the threatened sanction is always decisive. However, for the long run, I share the view of Sir James Fitzjames Stephen: "Some men, probably, abstain from murder because they fear that if they committed murder they would be hanged. Hundreds of thousands abstain from it because they regard it with horror. One great reason why they regard it with horror is that murderers are hanged (16)" Penal sanctions are useful in the long run for the formation of the internal restraints so necessary to control crime. The severity and finality of the death penalty is appropriate to the seriousness and the finality of murder (17).

IV. INCIDENTAL ISSUES: COST, RELATIVE

SUFFERING, BRUTALIZATION

Many nondecisive issues are associated with capital punishment. Some believe that the monetary cost of appealing a capital sentence is excessive (18). Yet most comparisons of the cost of life imprisonment with the cost of life imprisonment with the cost of execution, apart from their dubious relevance, are flawed at least by the implied assumption that life prisoners will generate no judicial costs during their imprisonment. At any rate, the actual monetary costs are trumped by the importance of doing justice.

Others insist that a person sentenced to death suffers more than his victim suffered, and that this (excess) suffering is undue according to the lex talionis (rule of retaliation) (19). We cannot know whether the murderer on death row suffers more than his victim suffered; however, unlike the murderer, the victim deserved none of the suffering inflicted. Further, the limitations of the lex talionis were meant to restrain private vengeance, not the social retribution that has taken its place. Punishment-- regardless of the motivation-- is not intended to revenge, offset, or compensate for the victim's suffering, or to measured by it. Punishment is to vindicate the law and the social order undermined by the crime. This is why a kidnapper's penal confinement is not limited to the period for which he imprisoned his victim; nor is a burglar's confinement meant merely to offset the suffering or the harm he caused his victim; nor is it meant only to offset the advantage he gained (20).

Another argument heard at least since Beccaria (21) is that, by killing a murderer, we encourage, endorse, or legitimize unlawful killing Yet, although all punishments are meant to be unpleasant, it is seldom argued that they legitimize the unlawful imposition of identical unpleasantness. Imprisonment is not thought to legitimize kidnapping; neither are fines thought to legitimize robbery. The difference between murder and execution, or between kidnapping and imprisonment, is that the first is unlawful and undeserved, the second a lawful and deserved punishment for an unlawful act. The physical similarities of the punishment to the crime are irrelevant. The relevant difference is not physical, but social (22).

V. JUSTICE, EXCESS, DEGRADATION

We threaten punishments in order to deter crime. We impose them not only to make the threats credible but also as retribution (justice) for the crimes that were not deterred. Threats and punishments are necessary to deter and deterrence is a sufficient practical justification for them. Retribution is an independent moral justification (23). Although penalties can be unwise, repulsive, or inappropriate, and those punished can be pitiable, in a sense the infliction of legal punishment on a guilty person cannot be unjust. By committing the crime, the criminal volunteered to assume the risk of receiving a legal punishment that he could have avoided by not committing the crime. The punishment he suffers is the punishment he voluntarily risked suffering and, therefore, it is no more unjust to him than any other event for which one knowingly volunteer to assume the risk. Thus, the death penalty cannot be unjust to the guilty criminal (24).

There remain, however, two moral objections. The penalty may be regarded as always excessive as retribution and always morally degrading. To regard the death penalty as always excessive, one must believe that no crime-- no matter how heinous-- could possibly justify capital punishment. Such a belief can be neither corroborated nor refuted; it is an article of faith.

Alternatively, or concurrently, one may believe that everybody, the murderer no less than the victim, has an imprescriptible (natural?) right to life. The law therefore should not deprive anyone of life. I share Jeremy Bentham's view that any such "natural and imprescriptible rights" are "nonsense upon stilts." (25)

Justice Brennan has insisted that the death penalty is "uncivilized," "inhuman," inconsistent with "human dignity" and with "the sanctity of life," (26) that it "treats members of the human race as nonhumans, as objects to be toyed with and discarded," (27) that it is "uniquely degrading to human dignity"(28) and "by its very nature, [involves] a denial of the executed person's humanity." (29) Justice Brennan does not say why he thinks execution "uncivilized." Hitherto most civilizations have had the death penalty, although it has been discarded in Western Europe, where it is currently unfashionable probably because of its abuse by totalitarian regimes.

By "degrading," Justice Brennan seems to mean that execution degrades the executed convicts. Yet philosophers, such as Immanuel Kant and G.F.W. Hegel, have insisted that, when deserved, execution, far from degrading the executed convict, affirms his humanity by affirming his rationality and his responsibility for his actions. They thought that execution, when deserved, is required for the sake of the convict's dignity. (Does not life imprisonment violate human dignity more than execution, by keeping alive a prisoner deprived of all autonomy?)(30).

Common sense indicates that it cannot be death-- our common fate-- that is inhuman. Therefore, Justice Brennan must mean that death degrades when it comes not as a natural or accidental event, but as a deliberate social imposition. The murderer learns through his punishment that his fellow men have found him unworthy of living; that because he has murdered, he is being expelled from the community of the living. This degradation is self-inflicted. By murdering, the murderer has so dehumanized himself that he cannot remain among the living. The social recognition of his self-degradation is the punitive essence of execution. To believe, as Justice Brennan appears to, that the degradation is inflicted by the execution reverses the direction of casuality.

Execution of those who have committed heinous murders may deter only one murder per year. If it does, it seems quite warranted. Its is also the only fitting retribution for murder I can think of.


http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/angel/procon/haagarticle.html

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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #16 on: September 17, 2010, 12:28:53 AM »
Cain the first murderer was not killed by God but being punished with a mark --Gen 4:15
God did not set up the capital punishment during those time but it was instituted after the flood-- Gen 9:4, 5

At present generation, the mark of Cain is a symbol for those who refused to
   get saved and come to the saving knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ
    but rather take the mark of the beast.

and wasn't cain's mark as a punishment also placed there by god “…to prevent him from being killed by anyone who would meet him.” (Genesis 4:1- 16)?

genesis 9:4-5 says:

4 "Only you shall not eat flesh with its life, that is, its blood."
5 "Surely I will require your lifeblood; from every beast I will require it. And from every man, from every man's brother I will require the life of man. (New American Standard)

4 "Only flesh with its lifeblood still in it you shall not eat."
5 "For your own lifeblood, too, I will demand an accounting: from every animal I will demand it, and from man in regard to his fellow man I will demand an accounting for human life." (New American Bible)

is god's law for capital punishment intrinsic in these passages, after the flood?

p.s.  these are bible passages, like any other passages, that are interpreted to fit one's beliefs.  vegetarians and anti-animal cruelty advocates use these, too.  so do religions and sects that forbid the consumption of animal blood as food (the iglesia ni cristo, for one).  meanwhile, we filipino catholics enjoy heaps of 'dinuguan' during feasts of our patron saints.  and there's the german blutwurst... 


 


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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #17 on: September 17, 2010, 12:37:59 AM »
 ;D ;D ;D wa man jud koi ikatampu ana oi....basta verse na sa bible ang paghisgutan. ;D ;D  

   Basta pra naho, okay ko nga i-restore ang death penalty. This will serve as a reminder oi sa mga tawong wai atay....... wai batikon....wai kasingkasing! They don't deserve to live.

     kanang mosakwahi sa death penalty, ibutang kuno ang inmong kaugalingon nga usa sa imong hinigugma, gi-murder. klaro2x jud ha ng gipatay siya anang tawhana. Naka witness pa jud ka. Oks ra ka?  Basta prisohon lang, okay na? :D

yes, oks na oks ra nako, mags.  simbako lang intawon ug mahinabo, palayo, but hypothetically it would be fine by me; justice will be served with life imprisonment without parole.  besides, kung witness ko, matulala tingali ko mao nga di na pod ko tingali reliable nga witness. 

manimbako lang ta ha?  ikaw, kung imong hinigugma ang murderer, witness pa gyod ka sa iyang pag-murder, oks ra pod ka nga bitayon siya?  di ka mag-ampo nga prisohon na lang?:D
 

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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #18 on: September 17, 2010, 12:39:00 AM »
I lean towards the thinking of Prof. Ernest van den Haag, the finality of it all. In regards to the tax payers' point of view (which falls in line with republican, libertarian viewpoint), we refer to the costs in running federal penitentiaries , which are tax dollars. The cost to feed, bathe, and maintain sustenance for people serving a life sentence or on long-term death row is quite large. These tax dollars should be spent to help the homeless, the starving children in the United States, add it to Medicaid, Medicare , and to the hundreds of federally-funded free clinics, VA hospitals that do help in sustaining the health of the tax-paying, law-abiding citizens of the United States.

Then again, on a secondary point of view, I like Van den Haag's emphasis of the finality of death penalty. In regards to opponent points of 'inhumanity', I think Van den Haag truly addressed it perfectly.





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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #19 on: September 17, 2010, 12:40:45 AM »
yes, oks na oks ra nako, mags.  simbako lang intawon ug mahinabo, palayo, but hypothetically it would be fine by me; justice will be served with life imprisonment without parole.  besides, kung witness ko, matulala tingali ko mao nga di na pod ko tingali reliable nga witness. 

manimbako lang ta ha?  ikaw, kung imong hinigugma ang murderer, witness pa gyod ka sa iyang pag-murder, oks ra pod ka nga bitayon siya?  di ka mag-ampo nga prisohon na lang?:D
 

This is why it is important to have a viable Judicial System. This is why I am only for the Death Penalty when the judicial system is viable, and free from erroneous mistakes in the dispersion of a delicate decision such as the Death Penalty.

You do have a point , Isles, and I thank you for sharing your very valid point and reasoning.



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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #20 on: September 17, 2010, 01:05:47 AM »
Among the innocents they list Sacco and Vanzetti as well as Ethel and Julius Rosenberg. Although their data may be questionable, I do not doubt that, over a long enough period, miscarriages of justice will occur even in capital cases.

"If it had not been for this thing, I might have lived out my life talking at street corners to scorning men.  I might have died, unmarked, unknown, a failure.  Now we are not a failure.  This is our career and our triumph. Never in our full life can we hope to do such work for tolerance, justice, for man's understanding of man, as now we do by accident. Our words - our lives - our pains - nothing!  The taking of our lives - lives of a good shoemaker and a poor fish peddler - all!  That last moment belong to us - that agony is our triumph.” (Bartolomeo Vanzetti)

Nicola Sacco and Bartolomeo Vanzetti were executed on 23rd August 1927.  On that day, over 250,000 people took part in a silent demonstration in Boston.

Fifty years later, on 23rd August 1977, Michael Dukakis, the governor of Massachusetts, issued a proclamation  effectively absolving the two men of the crime. (Spartacus Educational)

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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #21 on: September 17, 2010, 01:12:45 AM »
This is an example of a miscarriage of justice, specifically in capital cases. However, one has to understand the time period this took place in : 1927. Since then, there have been advances and changes in judicial system, the parole system being implemented in the United States, as well as a more viable judicial system as compared to during the early 20th century. Things have changed in the United States since then; as in many other countries, in regards to the dispensing of justice.

The context to what Haag talks about does make sense.

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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #22 on: September 17, 2010, 01:13:49 AM »
I lean towards the thinking of Prof. Ernest van den Haag, the finality of it all. In regards to the tax payers' point of view (which falls in line with republican, libertarian viewpoint), we refer to the costs in running federal penitentiaries , which are tax dollars. The cost to feed, bathe, and maintain sustenance for people serving a life sentence or on long-term death row is quite large. These tax dollars should be spent to help the homeless, the starving children in the United States, add it to Medicaid, Medicare , and to the hundreds of federally-funded free clinics, VA hospitals that do help in sustaining the health of the tax-paying, law-abiding citizens of the United States.

Then again, on a secondary point of view, I like Van den Haag's emphasis of the finality of death penalty. In regards to opponent points of 'inhumanity', I think Van den Haag truly addressed it perfectly.

reading the good professor's well-researched and well-thought out piece is truly convincing.  that is, if we do not read it in the context of a myriad of other points, both pro and con.  but economic considerations?  that for me is the worst of reasons.       

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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #23 on: September 17, 2010, 01:18:06 AM »
reading the good professor's well-researched and well-thought out piece is truly convincing.  that is, if we do not read it in the context of a myriad of other points, both pro and con.  but economic considerations?  that for me is the worst of reasons.       

It is a point worth considering. Funding these federal and state penitentiaries cost tax payer money, much of which could be used for developing and improving schools (much of which are under funded, and teachers being under-paid), for hospitals, roadway construction, as well as the aid of the dependent elderly under federal care.

Most of the criminals who are in death row or are serving life are guilty of malicious and gross homocide, some of whom are guilty of raping children and then killing them, raping young boys and kill them, homicide of whole families, and use the defense of criminally insane as reason for their actions. They are given life sentences, but they retain life. Not only that, but are given televisions to watch, clothes to wear, fed warm meals 3 times a day, are given medical care for sickness, given psychiatric treatment if necessary. For life. It costs to fund this. But what about those whose families they have destroyed? The mother that they killed in cold blooded murder, the father who was working and shot in the head because he was in their way, but at the same time was also providing a family of 4 or 5. The families left destitute due to the loss of a parent, parents, or children. There is no repayment, no financial reimbursement can bring them back. Justice for such crimes should be also final, as the crime committed.

In the United States, everything matters. It's good to know where our hard-earned tax dollars are being used/ spent.

I for one whould be willing to pay $12,000 for school systems, to pay property tax, to pay tax for wellfare to help those who are having a financial situation, but am more resistant to pay $3,000 a year to fund and provide a place for those who are guilty of crimes and have violated the law of the land, especially those who have killed / taken the lives of innocents. For me, No-Way. That's my view. Period.



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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #24 on: September 17, 2010, 01:40:29 AM »
i am for the restoration of death penalty and the abolition of juvenile justice act or if not amend it.

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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #25 on: September 17, 2010, 01:54:14 AM »
i am for the restoration of death penalty and the abolition of juvenile justice act or if not amend it.

Ray, what is your view in regards to Singapore's Capital Punishment methods? Would you like to have something like that implemented in the Philippines? (I place special attention on their anti-drug trafficking stance, your view on that too...)

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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #26 on: September 17, 2010, 01:56:08 AM »
Amnesty International data:

137 countries have abolished the death penalty.

China, Iran, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and the United States alone executed 1,252 people in 2007.  

Nearly 3,350 people were sentenced to death in 51 countries.

There are more than 20,000 prisoners on death row across the world.

1.  Death Penalty Outlawed (year)

•   Albania (2000)
•   Andorra (1990)
•   Angola (1992)
•   Argentina (2008)
•   Armenia (2003)
•   Australia (1984)
•   Austria (1950)
•   Azerbaijan (1998)
•   Belgium (1996)
•   Bhutan (2004)
•   Bosnia-Herzegovina (1997)
•   Bulgaria (1998)
•   Cambodia (1989)
•   Canada (1976)
•   Cape Verde (1981)
•   Chile (2008)
•   Colombia (1910)
•   Cook Islands (2007)
•   Costa Rica (1877)
•   Côte d'Ivoire (2000)
•   Croatia (1990)
•   Cyprus (1983)
•   Czech Republic (1990)
•   Denmark (1933)
•   Djibouti (1995)
•   Dominican Republic (1966)
•   East Timor (1999)
•   Ecuador (1906)
•   Estonia (1998)
•   Finland (1949)
•   France (1981)
•   Georgia (1997)
•   Germany (1949)
•   Greece (1993)
•   Guinea-Bissau (1993)
•   Haiti (1987)
•   Honduras (1956)
•   Hungary (1990)
•   Iceland (1928)
•   Ireland (1990)
•   Italy (1947)
•   Kiribati (1979)
•   Liberia (2005)
•   Liechtenstein (1987)
•   Lithuania (1998)
•   Luxembourg (1979)
•   Macedonia (1991)
•   Malta (1971)    
•   Marshall Islands (1986)
•   Mauritius (1995)
•   Mexico (2005)
•   Micronesia (1986)
•   Moldova (1995)
•   Monaco (1962)
•   Montenegro (2002)
•   Mozambique (1990)
•   Namibia (1990)
•   Nepal (1990)
•   Netherlands (1870)
•   New Zealand (1961)
•   Nicaragua (1979)
•   Niue (n.a.)
•   Norway (1905)
•   Palau (n.a.)
•   Panama (1903)
•   Paraguay (1992)
•   Poland (1997)
•   Portugal (1867)
•   Philippines (2006)
•   Romania (1989)
•   Rwanda (2007)
•   Samoa (2004)
•   San Marino (1848)
•   São Tomé and Príncipe (1990)
•   Senegal (2004)
•   Serbia (2002)
•   Seychelles (1993)
•   Slovak Republic (1990)
•   Slovenia (1989)
•   Solomon Islands (1966)
•   South Africa (1995)
•   Spain (1978)
•   Sweden (1921)
•   Switzerland (1942)
•   Turkey (2002)
•   Turkmenistan (1999)
•   Tuvalu (1978)
•   Ukraine (1999)
•   United Kingdom (1973)
•   Uruguay (1907)
•   Uzbekistan (2008)
•   Vanuatu (1980)
•   Vatican City (1969)
•   Venezuela (1863)

2.  Death Penalty Outlawed for Ordinary Crimes (year)

•   Bolivia (1997)
•   Brazil (1979)
•   Cook Islands (n.a.)
•   El Salvador (1983)
•   Fiji (1979)
•   Israel (1954)    
•   Kazakhstan (2007)
•   Kyrgyzstan (2007)
•   Latvia (1999)
•   Peru (1979)

3.  De Facto Ban on Death Penalty (year)

•   Algeria (1993)
•   Benin (1987)
•   Brunei Darussalam (1957)
•   Burkina Faso (1988)
•   Central African Republic (1981)
•   Congo (Republic) (1982)
•   Eritrea (n.a.)
•   Gabon (n.a.)
•   Gambia (1981)
•   Ghana (n.a.)
•   Grenada (1978)
•   Kenya (n.a.)
•   Korea, South (n.a.)
•   Laos (n.a.)
•   Liberia (n.a.)
•   Madagascar (1958)
•   Malawi (n.a.)
•   Maldives (1952)
•   Mali (1980)    
•   Mauritania (1987)
•   Morocco (1993)
•   Myanmar (1993)
•   Nauru (1968)
•   Niger (1976)
•   Papua New Guinea (1950)
•   Russia (1999)
•   Sri Lanka (1976)
•   Suriname (1982)
•   Swaziland (n.a.)
•   Tajikistan (n.a.)
•   Tanzania (n.a.)
•   Togo (n.a.)
•   Tonga (1982)
•   Tunisia (1990)
•   Zambia (n.a.)

4.  Death Penalty Permitted

•   Afghanistan
•   Antigua and Barbuda
•   Bahamas
•   Bahrain
•   Bangladesh
•   Barbados
•   Belarus
•   Belize
•   Botswana
•   Burundi
•   Cameroon
•   Chad
•   China (People's Republic)
•   Comoros
•   Congo (Democratic Republic)
•   Cuba
•   Dominica
•   Egypt
•   Equatorial Guinea
•   Eritrea
•   Ethiopia
•   Gabon
•   Ghana
•   Guatemala
•   Guinea
•   Guyana
•   India
•   Indonesia
•   Iran
•   Iraq
•   Jamaica
•   Japan
•   Jordan
•   Korea, North
•   Korea, South
•   Kuwait    
•   Laos
•   Lebanon
•   Lesotho
•   Libya
•   Malawi
•   Malaysia
•   Mongolia
•   Nigeria
•   Oman
•   Pakistan
•   Palestinian Authority
•   Qatar
•   St. Kitts and Nevis
•   St. Lucia
•   St. Vincent and the Grenadines
•   Saudi Arabia
•   Sierra Leone
•   Singapore
•   Somalia
•   Sudan
•   Swaziland
•   Syria
•   Taiwan
•   Tajikistan
•   Tanzania
•   Thailand
•   Trinidad and Tobago
•   Uganda
•   United Arab Emirates
•   United States
•   Vietnam
•   Yemen
•   Zambia
•   Zimbabwe

 







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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #27 on: September 17, 2010, 01:59:09 AM »
Agreed!
It need to be revived to curve down the appetite of those
  voracious cold-blooded murderers.
That is after proven guilty based on evidences and testimonies
   from the witnesses.
It's Biblical and God himself imposed the death penalty as
  written on the book of Genesis 9:5 and 6...

"And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the
  hand of every beast will I require it, and  at the hand of man
  of every man's brother will I require the life of man"

"Whoso sheddedth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed;
  for in the image of God made he man"



As always, Ma'am States, thank you for sharing your view with us.

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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #28 on: September 17, 2010, 02:02:05 AM »
It is a point worth considering. Funding these federal and state penitentiaries cost tax payer money, much of which could be used for developing and improving schools (much of which are under funded, and teachers being under-paid), for hospitals, roadway construction, as well as the aid of the dependent elderly under federal care.

it certainly is worth considering.  and the word is considering.  all these other government institutions have budgets, right? 

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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #29 on: September 17, 2010, 02:04:42 AM »
In the United States, everything matters. It's good to know where our hard-earned tax dollars are being used/ spent.

it's not as if in other countries not everything matters...  by the way, this thread is about the revival of the death penalty in the philippines, not about the united states where it exists.

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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #30 on: September 17, 2010, 02:08:24 AM »

For me, No-Way. That's my view. Period.


your view is hereby respected, period, but not believed, comma.  (you don't want any more discussion then, because of your 'period'?) ;D

well, gtg anyway.  it's 3 a.m. here.  see you tomorrow!

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Lorenzo

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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #31 on: September 17, 2010, 02:08:56 AM »
i am for the restoration of death penalty and the abolition of juvenile justice act or if not amend it.


Ray, can you divulge more about the juvenile justice act in the Philippines? Why would you have it abolished and amended. Just curious to know.
As for your former statement, I also agree.



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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #32 on: September 17, 2010, 02:13:28 AM »
 ;D ;D ;D wa man jud koi ikatampu ana oi....basta verse na sa bible ang paghisgutan. ;D ;D  

   Basta pra naho, okay ko nga i-restore ang death penalty. This will serve as a reminder oi sa mga tawong wai atay....... wai batikon....wai kasingkasing! They don't deserve to live.

     kanang mosakwahi sa death penalty, ibutang kuno ang inmong kaugalingon nga usa sa imong hinigugma, gi-murder. klaro2x jud ha ng gipatay siya anang tawhana. Naka witness pa jud ka. Oks ra ka?  Basta prisohon lang, okay na? :D

Mag Balantay,

You bring up a good point, a valid point.

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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #33 on: September 17, 2010, 03:00:31 AM »
As always, Ma'am States, thank you for sharing your view with us.

You are very welcome Lorenzo   :D

@Ms Isles...God cursed Cain from the earth... (Gen 4:11)
                  a fugitive and a vagabond .......(verse 12)
                  The Lord set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him ..(verse 15)
                  On the book of Genesis 9, as quoted, I'm referring to verse 6 which I mentioned on page one but
                     not on the following page just an overlook.., yes verse 4 pertains to the blood of the beast..

               Genesis 9:6 = was the capital punishment as stated re:man's blood...(KJV of 1611)
               It's a fact that the Lord Himself instituted it to maintain an orderly society.

I really enjoy reading your posts, everybody is entitled to their own opinion and I respected that.... :)
                                    


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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #34 on: September 17, 2010, 08:06:41 AM »
Ray, what is your view in regards to Singapore's Capital Punishment methods? Would you like to have something like that implemented in the Philippines? (I place special attention on their anti-drug trafficking stance, your view on that too...)
im not in favor on harsh punishments. i would like to endorse the lethal injection. less painful yet peaceful death.

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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #35 on: September 17, 2010, 09:02:26 AM »
"If it had not been for this thing, I might have lived out my life talking at street corners to scorning men.  I might have died, unmarked, unknown, a failure.  Now we are not a failure.  This is our career and our triumph. Never in our full life can we hope to do such work for tolerance, justice, for man's understanding of man, as now we do by accident. Our words - our lives - our pains - nothing!  The taking of our lives - lives of a good shoemaker and a poor fish peddler - all!  That last moment belong to us - that agony is our triumph.” (Bartolomeo Vanzetti)

Nicola Sacco and Bartolomeo Vanzetti were executed on 23rd August 1927.  On that day, over 250,000 people took part in a silent demonstration in Boston.

Fifty years later, on 23rd August 1977, Michael Dukakis, the governor of Massachusetts, issued a proclamation  effectively absolving the two men of the crime. (Spartacus Educational)

Islander, just a note to say that I like your well thought out posts.

There is also another issue in addition to the false convictions: giving the State too much power over the individual is very dangerous when the people in charge become megalomaniacs.  Then they can legally, through machinations, execute individuals that they find troublesome.

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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #36 on: September 17, 2010, 01:37:45 PM »
Against the Death Penalty: Christian Stance in a Secular World

by Margaret M. Falls


Those rejecting the death penalty," social critic Ernest van den Haag once remarked. "have the burden of showing that no crime deserves capital punishment—a burden which they have not so far been willing to hear." This is a challenge to which opponents of capital punishment need to respond. In my experience, the most passionate calls for retention of the death penalty come from those who are certain of the inherent rightness of killing killers. And those who initially defend capital punishment as a deterrence to crime often respond to the conflicting evidence on this point by abandoning their utilitarian approach and asserting simply that killers deserve to be killed. Until this argument loses its force, capital punishment probably will continue to be regarded as a legitimate form of retribution, and executions will seem neither "cruel and unusual" nor in conflict with what the courts call "contemporary standards of decency."

Many who oppose the death penalty dismiss retributive justice in this context as merely an expression of revenge rather than a legitimate moral ideal. Christians may point out that the Old Testament law of an "eye for an eye" tried only to set human limits in a world of excessive punishments, and that the New Testament recommends Christlike acts of forgiveness rather than retribution. Such approaches may be exegetically correct and religiously instructive, but they do not address van den Haag’s complaint.

Do Christians really want to hand the concept of retribution over to the secularists or the vengeful? I think not. The wisdom of retributive justice is its insistence that the punishment must fit the crime. This approach does not explain why bad acts deserve punishment, but it is congruent with some intuitions we should be slow to give up—that the government should not imprison the innocent or those who nonvoluntarily or through no fault of their own cause injury to others, and that punishment must be proportionate. We would not imprison a petty thief for life when a mass murderer receives only a year.

The question is, can we hold on to these judgments and nevertheless answer van den Haag’s challenge? Can we say, in other words, that criminals deserve proportionate suffering but that no criminal deserves the death penalty? I think we can.

In making this argument I will assume that each of us has a fundamental moral obligation to respect the inherent worth of persons. This assumption is a good one for the Christians opposed to the death penalty to use in speaking to the secular world. It finds considerable affirmation in the Christian story of God’s relationship to humankind, and has strong, though not uncontested, support in secular realms. The principle of respect for persons is also usually accepted by retributivists who support the death penalty. My model of punishment will show the inadequacy of their position.

Two general rules follow from respect for persons. First, we cannot treat people as mere instruments to our survival, success or fulfillment. Second, we must value in each individual his or her distinctively human capacity for moral agency—the ability to assess situations rationally, to make judgments about what is right and wrong, and to act according to those judgments.

These two rules are of course closely connected. If for the sake of my entertainment I coerce someone into performing an act that threatens both of our lives, then I have both used her as an instrument of my own ends and denied her the opportunity to assess the situation and decide for herself whether to participate. In denying her this opportunity, I have failed to treat her as a moral agent. Moral agency, like any capacity, may be underdeveloped and poorly used; but when people act immorally, they are still moral agents in the sense intended here. Hence, even a wicked criminal deserves this fundamental respect.

What, then, is our reasoning for punishing a criminal? Why do bad acts deserve punishment instead of loving-kindness and pity for the errant soul? To answer these questions, let us consider some possible responses to wrong behavior. Imagine that I know someone who relishes telling my friends lies about me. I might refuse to confront or reprimand him, perhaps out of fear or pity, or because I do not consider the matter worth the trouble. Maybe I think I am taking the higher road and responding with loving-kindness. However, the net effect of my action is that I avoid treating him as a moral agent. Rebuking bad behavior is part of treating someone as the kind of being who can enter into moral debate, make decisions about right and wrong, and morally assess past behavior and future plans.

Generally, holding someone responsible for his or her actions takes the form of a reprimand. But if the harm done is severe, a verbal rebuke may not be enough; we may, in this case, decide to withdraw from the friendship or withhold our confidence. We try to do something that expresses the degree to which we have been hurt, thereby holding the friend responsible for the harm he has done.

In a similar way, crime can be considered as wrongdoing for which the government holds the wrongdoer responsible. By isolating the criminal from the community, society makes it clear that the person’s behavior will not be tolerated, impresses upon the offender just how wrong the community finds that behavior, and insists that the wrongdoer morally assess her actions. Punishment of this kind demonstrates a respect for the individual’s inherent worth as a moral agent. Thus, from our obligation to respect persons we can derive what I call the moral-accountability criterion of just punishment: punishment by the state is justified if and only if it serves the function of holding persons accountable. Punishment that fails to serve this function is unjustified.

While the theory of punishment I am proposing affirms the moral significance of proportionate punishment, it would nonetheless exclude forms of punishment which by their nature fail to hold the offender responsible. Holding an offender responsible necessarily includes demanding that she respond as only moral agents can: by re-evaluating her behavior. If the punishment meted out makes reflective response to it impossible, then it is not a demand for response as a moral agent.

Death is not a punishment to which reflective moral response is possible. A moral response to the certainty of death at sunrise is possible. But waiting to be executed is not the criminal’s punishment; death is. Death terminates the possibility of moral reform. We can believe that an executed prisoner responds as a moral agent after death only if we assume, as many Christians do, that there is conscious life for the individual after death. Such an assumption, however, is not only religious in nature, but is peculiar to certain religions and not others. A government committed to the separation of church and state cannot operate on such an assumption. Therefore, insofar as the state is concerned, death terminates conscious life and cannot be considered a punishment prompting the offender to respond as a moral agent. The death penalty therefore lacks an essential ingredient of just punishment.

The argument formulated here is for several reasons a useful one for Christians living in a secular world. The fundamental moral obligation it assumes—respect for people as moral agents—is compatible with but not dependent on specific Christian beliefs. Furthermore, it relies on the theory of retributive justice, popularly thought to justify capital punishment.

What if some Christians deny the value of the separation of church and state and argue that it is their religious duty to see that the state operates under the assumption that there is individual immortality? To argue successfully that murderers can deserve the death penalty, Christians of this persuasion would still have to argue that killing criminals successfully fulfills the function of punishment: holding the offender responsible. And to do this they must show that by killing offenders and assuming an afterlife, the community successfully allows the punished ones to respond to their punishment as moral agents. There are reasons for doubting that this is the case.

Though dead criminals can—according to this theory—make their response to God, they cannot make it to the community that punished them. Since they are not allowed to act out within the community either a will to reform or a defiant challenge to the community’s judgment, I question whether they have really been allowed the opportunity to respond in the requisite sense. Is a meaningful response possible if the realm offended, the human community, is not the realm in which the offender is allowed to respond? And is the act of holding someone accountable complete if the one who solicits the response cannot be the one who receives it? In leaving it to God to sustain the disembodied soul and make moral response possible, this approach in effect abandons the effort to inflict a punishment that makes a moral response possible.

Killing is not a coherent way for the community to solicit moral responses from those who have offended it. And since killing criminals is not a coherent way to solicit a moral response, it fails to hold offenders responsible. Thus, even though death is proportionate to death, killing killers violates the principle that justifies punishment in the first place.


Dr. Falls is professor of philosophy at St. Mary’s College, Nortre Dame, Indiana. This article appeared in the Christian Century, December 10, 1986, pps. 1118-1119. Copyright by the Christian Century Foundation; used by permission. Current articles and subscription information can be found at www.christiancentury.org. This article prepared for Religion Online by Ted & Winnie Brock.


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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #37 on: September 17, 2010, 04:13:24 PM »
You are very welcome Lorenzo   :D

@Ms Isles...God cursed Cain from the earth... (Gen 4:11)
                  a fugitive and a vagabond .......(verse 12)

cursed, yes, but does it also say that he was condemned to die at the hands of fellowmen, which in essence is what capital punishment by death is about?



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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #38 on: September 17, 2010, 04:55:35 PM »
                 On the book of Genesis 9, as quoted, I'm referring to verse 6 which I mentioned on page one but
                     not on the following page just an overlook.., yes verse 4 pertains to the blood of the beast..

               Genesis 9:6 = was the capital punishment as stated re:man's blood...(KJV of 1611)
               It's a fact that the Lord Himself instituted it to maintain an orderly society.

I really enjoy reading your posts, everybody is entitled to their own opinion and I respected that.... :)
                               

as i enjoy reading yours, ms states.  one thing with forums like this is that we get to exchange ideas and opinions in the spirit of agreeing to disagree based on mutual respect for both our sameness and difference as we learn much from each other in the process. :D

and yes, genesis 9:5-6...

"And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the
  hand of every beast will I require it, and  at the hand of man
  of every man's brother will I require the life of man"

"Whoso sheddedth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed;
  for in the image of God made he man"

What does the Bible say about capital punishment and the death penalty?

The Old Testament

Life was harsh for the Hebrews in early Old Testament history. They had just been freed from slavery in Egypt, and wandered in the desert for 40 years. When they finally reached the promised land they had to fight almost constantly to take and hold it. There were few options for dealing with offenders in a society that moved frequently and struggled just to survive. The penalty for most crimes was either death, beating or banishment from the tribe.

The Old Testament Law prescribed the death penalty for an extensive list of crimes including:

•   Murder (Exodus 21:12-14; Leviticus 24:17,21)
•   Attacking or cursing a parent (Exodus 21:15,17)
•   Kidnapping (Exodus 21:16)
•   Failure to confine a dangerous animal, resulting in death (Exodus 21:28-29)
•   Witchcraft and sorcery (Exodus 22:18, Leviticus 20:27, Deuteronomy 13:5, 1 Samuel 28:9)
•   Sex with an animal (Exodus 22:19, Leviticus 20:16)
•   Doing work on the Sabbath (Exodus 31:14, 35:2, Numbers 15:32-36)
•   Incest (Leviticus 18:6-18, 20:11-12,14,17,19-21)
•   Adultery (Leviticus 20:10; Deuteronomy 22:22)
•   Homosexual acts (Leviticus 20:13)
•   Prostitution by a priest's daughter (Leviticus 21:9)
•   Blasphemy (Leviticus 24:14,16, 23)
•   False prophecy (Deuteronomy 18:20)
•   Perjury in capital cases (Deuteronomy 19:16-19)
•   False claim of a woman's virginity at time of marriage (Deuteronomy 22:13-21)
•   Sex between a woman pledged to be married and a man other than her betrothed (Deuteronomy  
             22:23-24)
 
The New Testament

The New Testament does not have any specific teachings about capital punishment. However, the Old Testament ideas of punishment became secondary to Jesus' message of love and redemption.  Both reward and punishment are seen as properly taking place in eternity, rather than in this life.

Jesus said His mission was not to abolish the Law, but to fulfill it (Matthew 5:17-20).  However, He and His apostles greatly modified our understanding of God's intentions.  Love is the principle that must guide all our actions (Matthew 5:43-48, 22:34-40, Mark 12:28-34, Luke 10:25-28, Romans 13:9-10, Galatians 5:14).

Christians are bound by Jesus' commands to "Love the Lord your God" and "Love your neighbor as yourself."  We are no longer bound by the harsh Old Testament Law (John 1:16-17, Romans 8:1-3, 1 Corinthians 9:20-21).

Jesus flatly rejected the Old Testament principle of taking equal revenge for a wrong done  (Matthew 5:38-41, Luke 9:52-56).  He also said that we are all sinners and do not have the right to pass judgment on one another (Matthew 7:1-5).  In the case of a woman caught in adultery (a capital offense), Jesus said to those who wanted to stone her to death,

"Let anyone among you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her."  And once again he bent down and wrote on the ground. When they heard it, they went away, one by one, beginning with the elders; and Jesus was left alone with the woman standing before him. Jesus straightened up and said to her, "Woman, where are they?  Has no one condemned you?" She said, "No one, sir."  And Jesus said, "Neither do I condemn you. Go your way, and from now on do not sin again." (NRSV, John 8:7-11)

The apostle Paul also warned against taking revenge for a wrong done (Romans 12:17-21, 1 Thessalonians 5:15).  Likewise, the apostle Peter warned us not to repay evil with evil (1 Peter 3:9).

http://www.twopaths.com/faq_CapitalPunishment.htm









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Re: Bishop Wants Death Penalty Revived in the Philippines
« Reply #39 on: September 17, 2010, 05:27:00 PM »
Arguments for and against capital punishment

Christians, and other churches, are divided on the issue of whether capital punishment is right or wrong. Some proponents of capital punishment see it as mandated by the Old Testament Law.   However, Christians are no longer bound by the Old Testament Law. The argument of a Biblical mandate for capital punishment is also contradicted by the fact that many of the capital crimes in the Old Testament are considered relatively minor today.  Very few people in the Christian world would support capital punishment for such things as doing work on the Sabbath, false prophecy or making false statements about a woman's virginity.

Many proponents of capital punishment interpret the phrase, "authority does not bear the sword in vain!" in Romans 13:1-5 as New Testament authority for capital punishment.  However, the point of this passage is that Christians must not use their freedom from the Old Testament religious Law as an excuse to violate the civil law. We must obey civil authority, which is instituted by God, because of fear of punishment as well as conscience (verse 5).

Opponents of capital punishment see it as exactly the kind of revenge and human judgment that Jesus and His apostles so often warned against. They believe the principles set forth by Jesus and the apostles restrict punishment to only that which is necessary to protect society (i.e., humane confinement of offenders).

Opponents of capital punishment also point out that Jesus taught great principles for us to apply in our lives, rather than specific laws. Thus, his failure to specifically condemn slavery, capital punishment and many other evils should not be interpreted as approval of those things. They see the mercy He showed to the woman caught in adultery (John 8:3-11) as His rejection of capital punishment. However, Jesus never specifically repudiated capital punishment.

Some opponents of capital punishment see a prohibition against capital punishment in the Ten Commandments (Exodus 20:13, "Thou shalt not kill" in the King James Version). The original Hebrew word ratsach, translated as "kill" or "murder" could refer to either killing in general or unlawful killing (murder). However, most authorities think this is not a prohibition against capital punishment because the death penalty is specifically authorized elsewhere in the Old Testament.

http://www.twopaths.com/faq_CapitalPunishment.htm



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