MikeLigalig.com

yes, i believe.  at its most basic, karma is nothing but sanskrit for cause and effect.  (no point in delving into life cycles of hindu belief here.)  it's as real as reaping what one sows.  

Quote from: hubag bohol on June 24, 2010, 09:07:20 PM
Da, hadlok lagi magasgas ang butbot...

ako lang ikalipay nga wa koy almoranas pareha nimo.

Quote from: hubag bohol on June 24, 2010, 08:04:24 PM
Mangutana tang Ms. Isle ani, Bay Jigs, pero akong nadunggan kay naa man kunoy code, depende sa klase sa tae ug sa sitwasyon. Mora bitawg tip sa masiao. For example, kanang tubow morag #1 man tingali to na...

akong patugang tubag:  una, si jigs tingali ang angay magdamgo mismo.  ikaduha, tingalig si jigs ang gadala ug dimalas.  ikatulo, tingalig nidaog na mog lotto, jigs, kay nipustag sekreto imong komander.  kay komander man lagi,  nganong tug-anan pa man niya ang iyahang general utility staff?

Quote from: ms da binsi on June 24, 2010, 01:20:58 PM



wahahahahahha!

way batasan, giapilapil na pud ahong buhok!!!!!!!!!! (i think thats a good idea ug mahutdan mi ug toilet paper diri)

huy ajo na laman na kay sa unas! ang unas dili maka limpyo sa lubot!!!

mora man ug "when you knew that it was over/ were you suddenly aware/ that the autumn leaves were turning to the color of her hair..." (the windmills of your mind)

only this time, the bunot has turned to the color of ms da binsi's hair.

Quote from: hubag bohol on June 24, 2010, 11:40:52 AM
Humok tawon ning bunot, Ms. Isle, oi, especially kanang part nga duol sa pungango. Tan-awa:



Kon unsaon pag-ilo, aw, akong i-demo kon mo-volunteer ka as subject, bwahaha! Peace, Ms. Isle!

o, sige.  tuo na ko nimo, bai hubs.  nothing beats experience, huh?

Quote from: hubag bohol on June 23, 2010, 04:37:07 PM
Karon pa pud ko anang word nga "bososero". Mora mag "basurero"...

ehehe.  hasta ako nakakatawa ani nga pulong, after the fact of its invention.  morag naaninohan ni da sa ususiro ug butangiro.  mamboboso diay unta no?

na, okay, bai hubag.  mamboboso diay ka, di bososero.  

(any word will do, as long as it's about you.)

Quote from: hofelina on June 23, 2010, 04:54:38 AM
gikan mi sa Manila ang among na-abtan nga ang kasilyas kinobkob juta ang tonoban troso, inamakan ang bong-bong, ang ilo bunot sa lubi!

my goooossshhhh.  nganong bunot pa man, di na lang dahon sa saging?  unsaon man tawon pag-ilo ug bunot?  magngisi man sad tawon ang lobot ana.  maayo untag naay picture-demo si bai hubs kun unsaon pag-ilo ug bunot.  paging, bai hubs, tagai mig sample beh!

Quote from: ms da binsi on June 23, 2010, 09:05:17 AM

bwaaaaaaaaaaaa! hahahah! susmarya! sus jud ko mag damgo ana sa una nga hapit na daw ko malumos sa tae! sus mag huot jud akong dughan ig mata nako! hahahahha

kuwarta kuno na, ms da binsi.  daghan ang mo-swear nga kining magdamgo tag e-at, naa gyoy moabot.  ako mismo, nagdamgo kog naglutaw ug e-at 2 years ago, gahilak ko pagmata kay nahadlok ko kay morag tinuod.  naunsa ba, nakadaog baya intawon ang akong bonds, hehe.  di man hinoon dako.  mora rag komplimento ang amount, pero daog gihapon.  maglisod kog tuo ani, pero unsaon man tawon nga kapila na man ko makatunong nga naay moabot nga wa damha kun magdamgo kog e-at.  ay, ambot ba uroy sa e-at.

 

Quote from: vhinz08 on June 22, 2010, 10:12:39 PM
Hala ajaw na balik ug saka sa kahoy Ms. Isles kay bisag dunulan ka ug blade sa pari.  
Na-a raba si sakristan Bay Hubs.  

arang ka-cheap sad nga pari-a.  blade ra?  di na man lang makayag palit ug battery-operated shave, bisag disposable shave na lang unta.  gisiklot tingali ang tanang limos sa misa ni sakristan hubs da.

Quote from: hubag bohol on June 22, 2010, 09:38:23 PM
Bwahaha! Unsay bosohon? Ang buhagay?

Dia ra ang namoso, ay...

tan-awa ang nawong sa bososero.  morag nakakitag tiaw.

gusto man laging ma-mayor, na, angayan man diay ug prison mayor.

di na lang kaha tay-ogon ang wrong days aning duha ka observances.  ang christmas day bitaw, a.k.aa the birth day of jesus christ, wa man i-specify sa bible nga december 25.

Quote from: bugsay on June 22, 2010, 03:53:55 PM
kuyaw sab ang police character

inubanan ug cartoon character.

do i think sabah will ever be returned to the philippines?  i don't think so.

Quote from: vhinz08 on June 22, 2010, 09:21:45 PM
Bag-ong kasilyas, de tiles na.

kun mao niy bag-ong kasilyas, balik na lang kog saka ug kahoy oy.

Quote from: vhinz08 on June 22, 2010, 06:39:59 PM
Tuara mingtalikod kay nauwaw makita ang nawong.   

asa may angay ikauwaw, bai vhinz, nga maoy angay tabonan?  ang nawong o ang lobot? 

OT:  naguwapo na man lagi ka sa imong avatar, morag bag-og pustiso.

Quote from: hubag bohol on June 22, 2010, 01:52:43 PM
Dia ra ang nangalibang, ay.

Hain kaha si Ms. Isle diri...

ako nang feminine, bai hubs.  the frog princess.  ikaw tong gi-edit out sa picture kay namoso.

Quote from: ms da binsi on June 22, 2010, 01:22:25 PM

nindot ug magkita mo Miss Isles dayun maghinisgutay sa bulawan sa lapok aw sanga diay? hahahha!

nagkita mi 2 years ago sa nahimo nang general, ms da binsi.  way nakaako ug hisgot. nagpanuko ko kay morag di na man siya mao, morag general na gyod tuod, tahor nag nawong di na tong nawong sa bata sa una nga kusog mangusi pero tiil gamiton, morag alimango.  usa ra poy iyang gisulti nako.  'nganong niwang man gihapon ka?'  dayon sila na sa akong banana republic ang nag-istorya.   

Quote from: Raquelproud boholana on June 22, 2010, 12:59:04 PM
perting katawa naho aning imong fond memories Isle. Nalingaw jud ko.

vivid kaayo para nako hangtod karon, raqs, kadtong mga bakasyona.  makatawa pa sad gihapon ko nga mohinumdom, basta lang gyod dili tingkaon kay ma-thank you gyod ang akong mealtime. mabara ug ahat ang akong tutonlan.   

Quote from: hubag bohol on June 22, 2010, 12:22:23 PM

Hala! 

ka-cute!

sumpay sa akong kasilyas sugilanon:  ang kinatas-an namong mokatkat sa kahoy nga kusog muborahi philippine military general na karon. 

toilet-related fond memories--- pito mi nga mga cebu-based cousins, ages 6 to 13, namakasyon sa una sa usa ka barangay sa bohol (i won't identify the barangay nga hangtod karon kahibawo ko nga nihit gihapon ang kasilyas). 

aw, mga bata lagi di sigeg lafang.  ang gilafang mogawas man gyod sa laing agianan.  dungan mig lafang, dungan pod ug pagawas, all together morag mga muskeeters.

kay wa lagiy kasilyas adtong dapita, mangatkat mig kahoy kay mahadlok man mig maduol sa among gipangkalibang.  namuwak intawon ang kahoy ug mga batang nagdungan ug pangalibang, ang gitas-on sa gitungtongan namo sigon sa abilidad pagkatkat kada usa.   

sabot nga di magpatunongay aron way madisgrasya.  giabot nga naay managsoon nga naalkansi ang maguwang kay naa siya sa ubos-ubos apan wa sa lugar, na, naka-koronag bulawan ug ahat.  hapit magsinumbagay. 

p.s. enjoy ko adtong panahona.  nadisgrasya lang ko gamay kay pagkanaog nako kausa, nakatunob tawon kog bulawan.


   

sa unang panahon, sa national kasikatan ni anhing yoyoy villame nga taga-calape na-ban (kuno) sa bohol tungod sa iyang sine nga "bol-anon ko, 'nyor".  usa (kuno gihapon; sayang wa ko makakita atong sineha) sa mga scenes sa sine mao ang iyang paghilam-os sa inodoro kay lagi ignoy intawon ang mga bol-anon ug kasilyas. 

usa pod kuno nga scene mao ang pagkahulog niya sa swimming pool.  siyagit kuno siya ug "ajaw, ajaw i-flush."  ambot unsa ni katinuod estoryaha pero wa na gyod kunoy balik-balik si yoyoy sa bohol.  nahimo na lang siyang councilor sa paranaque.

arang pangatawa sa mga bol-anon nga naa ra sa bohol pero ulbog maayo ang mga bol-anon nga tua sa laing lugar kay nahimo na man hinoon silang bugal-bugal sa ilang mga kahigalaan.  nangulo sa ulbo usa kuno ka judge inting didto sa davao.

hinoon, na-ban kuno si yoyoy sa bohol tungod ug kasilyas.  wa makaabot nga ma-ban siya dinhi sa tb nga karon naghisgot ug kasilyas.
 

Quote from: ms da binsi on June 20, 2010, 04:30:41 AM
bwahahhaahha! kada adlaw usa ka strand Miss Isles??? hahahhaha!

hehehe.  pamaolan man sad atong kamot ana.

Quote from: vhinz08 on June 21, 2010, 05:23:37 PM
unsa na man ni among gitrabaho-an wala na may balak mag sweldo 

hinaot unta, vhinz, nga suweldohan mo karong katapusan sa buwan.

Quote from: bugsay on June 21, 2010, 05:25:36 PM
......mahinumdom kos among kasilyas nga nahugmo.

nagtungtong ka sa inodoro pagkahagsa, bai bugs?

i know, i know.  or i think anyway... ikaw tong ghoast, bai hubs!  hahaha!

Quote from: hubag bohol on June 21, 2010, 10:07:43 AM
Mas bale nga ukay-ukay ang sinina kaysa ukay-ukay ang nawong...

asa man available ang ukay-ukay nga nawong?  interesado ko da...

Quote from: Lorenzo on June 19, 2010, 09:19:58 AM
Ms. I, have you ever personally witnessed a ghost? seen one?

Just curious..

seriously, lorenz, yes i have, more than once.  they weren't pleasant experiences and i don't want to have to go through them again.   

Quote from: Chongki on June 21, 2010, 11:49:47 AM
karomantiko gyuid ninjung duha 

hahaha!  da, pagbalak-balak pa bahin ug pikoy.  sakspan hinoon.  di na ninyo ikalimod, bai hubs ug bugs!  una, mga romantiko mo.  ikaduha, naa diay moy gialimahan nga mga pikoy, hahaha!

Quote from: Lorenzo on June 21, 2010, 11:17:40 AM
hahaha dili uy , si hubag ug si bugsay mai co-valedictorian. I am but the last student in line.

Observer lang ko. The one that claps for the awardees. 

ooooyyyyy, pa-shy-shy pa ang valedictorian!   the judge has spoken.  take the award and share it with your (ahem) baby cakes!

Quote from: bugsay on June 21, 2010, 11:10:12 AM
kon nganong na salutaturian ra ko? ....
way laing kapasumanginlan, ikaw gyud mauy hinungdan aning tanan...nyahahaha

my goooosshh, my goooosshh.  walay sala ug sayop ang akong kaguran, please, please.  ma-valedictorian baya unta ka kun nangopya ka kang lorenz.

Quote from: bugsay on June 21, 2010, 10:26:44 AM
ngano ni? pag tsure mo uy!!!;D

hahaha!  tsure gyod ning istoryaha.  lorenzo is valedictorian, si bugsay ang salutatorian, si bai hubs nangiwit, hahaha!  unsa man na, bai bugs, nganong nalupig man ka?

aguy.  paita gyod ning sayon ra kuno mangitag mangingihaw karong panahona.  it used to be that bohol was beyond such gangland killing.    

Quote from: bugsay on June 20, 2010, 08:21:33 PM
mahadlok ko mo abli ani nga topic....kay si ms isles murag nagdalag latigo...

- ang nawong sa hadlukan.

kaguran, bugs, ang akong gitakin.  di ko modalag latigo kay akong knee-high boots nabilin sa pinas.  maayo pay kaguran kay magtsinelas o magtiniil ra.

- nawong sa gatakin ug kaguran

Quote from: Lorenzo on June 20, 2010, 12:30:36 AM

PS. My dearest frau, never have i claimed omniscience nor do i come close to that. The only one who is omniscient is The Lord God. Anyone else is but a speck of dust in time before His Majesty. I am but a simple and common student wanting to learn a little bit of information (with the time we are given), much like yourself and the rest of the world. Please, i dont know why you would think i am omniscient when i am but an average student in all things.
Average by His Grace...

take note that i did not credit you with omnipotence and omnipresence.  my use of the word omniscience here is as a literary device.  i’m not crediting you with divinity, far from it, because if i did so, long before i could punch the letter x on my computer keyboard i would have wilted like the fig trees when the messiah passes by.

on your spiritual and intellectual journey, vaya con dios, mein herr,

islander 

Quote from: Lorenzo on June 20, 2010, 12:30:36 AM

As for your biblical query on Abraham's movement to Judea, one finds the answer in the Book of Genesis Chapter 12: 1Now(O) the LORD said to Abram, "Go from your country and your kindred and your father’s house to the land that I will show you. 2(P) And I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing. 3 I will bless those who bless you, and him who dishonors you I will curse, and(R) in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed."

His migration to Judea was a direct mandate not of himself, but by God The Father, the importance of which, is the completion of redemption prophesy (I leave that to you and others to accept or believe/ or not).


All the best mein frau,
Lorenzo

spare me the bible when my questions are deduced from the claims in your posts. 

or why don’t we just call on our creator to answer everything or make him as the reason for everything?  will there be peace between israel and palestine?  yes/no, because of the grace of god.  will the sun come out tomorrow?  yes, because of the grace of god.  will scarb appear in tb again?  yes, because of the grace of god.  will bugsay use a paddle instead of a kaguran?  no, because of the grace of god. 

will ms da binsi be able to raise again from the dead those trees in guindulman?  yes, because of the grace of god.  will vhinz08 get all his front teeth back?  yes, because of the grace of god.  is lorenzo my relative?  yes, because of the grace of god.  will hubag complete his collection of frog collectibles?  no, because of the grace of god. 

dearest average baby boy, it just won’t do.  if it were so, we wouldn’t have this kind of discussion.  you need not even have started this thread because the answer is the grace of god. 

sure, abraham’s mandate came from god.  but since you’re interested in comparative religion as i am, kindly check out what muslims also believe as their mandate from allah.  for starters, muslims also believe they are descendants of abraham.  (of course, you know that.  you’ve mentioned somewhere about your subject on islamic studies or something where the muslim professor wasn’t able to answer your question.)  and thus we may go back all over again, ad nauseam, to the beginning of this thread.

may you be showered with the best of answers,

islander

Quote from: Lorenzo on June 20, 2010, 12:30:36 AM
Dearest Frau,

That is the very question that you and I and all the world would like to know the answer to. Can there be peace? When you know the answer, please, share with us.

which question of mine is this that you refer to as the very question?  my questions, which this quoted post of yours comments on, total 5.  definitely, not one of my questions is on whether there will be peace or not.  

here we go again, i go in one direction, you go the other way.  this is getting impossible.  i'm beginning to feel i'm wasting my time.  

if you cannot answer any of my specific questions, couldn't you just say so?

Quote from: Lorenzo on June 20, 2010, 12:17:48 AM

I admire you as well, mein Frau, for your spirited discussion and debate (not to mention your beautiful mind).

Truly and kindly yours,
Lorenzo

beautiful mind?  Wasn’t there a movie of the same title with the hero having only half a mind?   of course, you, too, have a beautiful mind.

Quote from: Lorenzo on June 20, 2010, 12:16:09 AM
With ardent apologies, I did not mean to strike your nerve when I used the term erroneous, but rather was a corrective implication on my part. I do not doubt and question your intelligence, for you have shown quite the zeal in meticulous dates as well as grammatical understanding, which leads me to surmise that you have a background in Language Arts and Creative Writing of some sort.

My little inference was merely to add a simple historical input in the reasons why Palestine was called Palestine and not Judea, not in anyways or sorts to mitigate your intelligence, but rather, a sharing of historical tid bit to this beautiful and wonderful discussion.

I do hope you do not mind my doing that, mein Frau.

Danke mein Frau.,
baby boy Lorenzo

ardent apologies ardently accepted. 

one uses the term erroneous because something’s wrong; one uses the term ‘corrective implication’ because there is ‘wrong implication’ somewhere.  i don’t take things personally, though, so you need not be concerned about any nerve of mine being struck by lightning. 

you can doubt my intelligence anytime and it would not increase nor decrease my imbecility.  it is best to separate the person from his mistakes, real or imagined, for objectivity’s sake, such as when it comes to history, right?  i do regard you and everybody else that way in our discussions here at tb.  i expect you to do the same.   

at the latter part of this quoted post of yours, you’re saying you’re adding.  so it’s no longer correcting and clarifying.  now, where did your claim of my undermining ms. states go? 

we’re not here at tb to question anybody’s intelligence, not mine, not yours, or anybody else’s.  we’re discussing where we stand, not our intelligence quotients.

i truly do not mind your doing what you wish to do.  just expect answers, which i hope you wouldn’t mind too.     

Quote from: Lorenzo on June 20, 2010, 12:06:04 AM

My age has nothing to do with the subject matter, however, I thankfully and graciously take into consideration your point of view.

All the best mein Frau.
Lorenzo.

age generally has everything to do with most things, from one’s health to this subject matter, the former as a matter of course and the latter in terms of perspectives.  (there are reasons for the minimum age for one to qualify for a driver’s license or to be qualified to vote, right?)   

gaining perspectives, in context, and gaining more knowledge takes time.  and one gains age with time.  (your understanding of your parents’ relationship with each other must be different now than when you were 6 years old, for example.  so it is with one’s understanding of everything else.)

when one is young, one tends to believe that everybody else is less knowledgeable.  mark twain put it thus:   

“When I was a boy of fourteen my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around.  But when I got to be 21, I was astonished at how much the old man has learned in seven years.”

let any young one show his imagined mettle and chances are he’s bound to be put in his place.

Quote from: Lorenzo on June 20, 2010, 12:06:04 AM
Aside from your personal anecdotes and personal lecture, the main point of my post was to correct and clarify your original post on the Philistines.
With that said, I thank you for your side comment as well as personal inference that has nothing to do with the subject.

that’s the very problem of this exchange; you believe you can correct and clarify as if others cannot read or understand what they’re reading.  you could have said that you only wanted to add, not correct and clarify.  the latter confused me because i couldn’t for the life of me get what it was that you wanted to correct and clarify nor get your correction and clarification, on top of your claim that i was undermining ms. states.  

but if you insist, then please take time to distill what you wish to convey so you won’t end up muddling your points.  we’re reading almost the same things anyway.  we (tb members) differ only in understanding and interpretation of what we read and know.  top that with experiences and personal choices or even biases if you may, and truly our discussions have reason for being.  

unfortunately, all my "comments and personal inferences" have something to do with our discussion.

wow, i’m already lecturing, say you.  taking after you?  credit me at least for being a fast learner.

Quote from: Lorenzo on June 20, 2010, 12:02:45 AM
I trust you can let go the spelling errors (im not writing an academic essay and is not graded, so therefore, i don't feel the need to spell check, since the main point is being shared) I trust you can accept this, after all, this is a public forum and not a college.

But in the future, I will take into consideration your zeal for grammatical correction.


All the best mein Frau.,

i am looking forward to that day. 

when one is careful with simpler things like grammar and spelling, whether it is in university or a forum or the rest room, it may show that one is also careful with everything else, from manners to data and conclusions.  the main point gets garbled if the medium is garbled. 

who cares about grades?  they matter not because we don’t do things as cleanly as we could only because we are graded.  i believe we should not sacrifice quality for speed.

Quote from: bugsay on June 20, 2010, 11:02:32 AM

Ok lang ms isles....kasabot ko's imong punto.

nagduda man gud ko nga basin pag-umangkon kang conching lim...

kun pag-umangkon pa ko niya, dugay ra tingali kong nangbitik ug iya-an.   maayo gani kay buotan si calle...

Quote from: Lorenzo on June 19, 2010, 11:59:33 PM

That may be so, but I wanted to clarify the situation. As well, add clarity and precedence to Ms. State's post. All are welcome to read it, not only for you.

Thank you for the correction, mein frau.

before you can clarify anything, you should be clear yourself.  you wish to “add clarity and precedence to ms. state’s post”?  do you really understand what “precedence” means?

“all are welcome to read it, not only for you.”  the word “for” should be deleted.

and “mein frau” is wrong twice over.  since “frau” is feminine, it ought to be “meine frau”.  but still it would be wrong, because it means “my wife”.  the correct expression is “meine dame”.

oh, lorenzo, as the saying goes, “marami ka pang kakaining bigas”.  please act according to your age, which isn’t much, and accomplishment, which is zilch.  who knows, if you do so you might earn a multitude of real friends.

now i'm doing what you do, correcting people. 

thanks too.

Quote from: bugsay on June 18, 2010, 11:12:33 PM
kinsay kaliwat nimo sa Valencia, basin kaila ko?

hehe, pasayloa lang gyod ko, bai bugs.  di pa ko andam nga mohatag nimog apelyido.  importante man god nako nga islander ra ko.  mausab ang tanan kun mailhan na akong mga paryente.  di na tingali ko makapangaway o makapasiaw.  wa hibaw-ig mabunalan pa gyod ko sa akong mga paryente.  mahanawan pa ko aning akong kalingawan. 

nganong gusto kog magpabilin nga nagtakoban?  wa baya nato hibaw-i kun fugitive from justice ba koh! bitaw, i am a naturally very private person at all times.  i keep to myself and the family and hardly go out.  in fact, i hate going out.  as the cyberworld is a different world, so must i have a different life in tb.  i hope for your understanding.       

ug ang tag-iya anang real beauty, nangwitik pa gyod sa guindulman ay.  di man hinoon ka magukod ug bunal ug sanga sa pinutol nga acacia, with you driving that vintage beauty... hahaha!

whew!  butol man gyod ko bahig auto kay akong standard is low (basta modagan, mao na na), but your vintage car is a real beauty, ms da binsi.  abi nakog ang amo ang vintage (1993).  paskang, pipitsugin ra man diay intawon ikomparar sa inyong 1953.  henceforth, mohilom na lang ko nga  vintage amoa.   shalan ba diay...

too bad we've never tried any american car and have no plans of having one anytime soon.  my brother used to have a ford.  i remember him complaining that it was a guzzler.  we used to have a honda civic, which i complained much about because my legs had to to be stretched much to reach the accelerator.  it was uncomfortable and dangerous for me.  now we have a not-so-new mercedes, efficient and trustworthy.  i finally found my car.  but american cars still make me curious.   

maybe it's up to the owners of these noynoy dolls to make them grow old in their hands.  kun naay ako, hinayhinayon nakog ibot ang buhok in keeping with how the human noynoy is through the years.

two things, actually.

1)  as a student, throwing out of the house the things of my cousin who lived with us and sowed too many intrigues in our family, then going into a shouting match with her mother who came to defend her.  both our families never recovered after that.

2) as a single working girl, calling up the welfare agency to report child abuse in our next-door neighbor, giving my real name and putting myself up as witness.  what happened:  the 9-year-old boy had 8 big staple wires buried in his back and arms.  his drunk father from hell shot him with an electric stapler, the kind that's used by carpenters for walls.  that's gigantic.  and that was my last straw.     

naa sad koy amiga nga mapagarbohong moistorya bahin sad sa iyang amiga nga ang apelyido patay.  gubot gyod hinoon ang klase kada pagsugod sa semester.  ang wa maanad nga mga bag-ong classmates mangatawa gyod kuno tawon.  atubangon lang tanan ni miss patay ug moingon siyag "why you laughing?  asa ra man diay mo padung tanan?"

unya, naa poy maestro nga mangutana pa gyod ug asa ang accent, sa 'pa' ba o sa 'tay'.  tubagon ra sad ni miss patay ug "ayder of de tow will dow." (pronounced as spelled).

dugang pa, kun molabay si miss patay ug menteryo kun mobiyahi, moingon dayon siya sa iyang amiga, "mao na among hacienda."

das the spirit!
   

aqs, naay apelyido nga punay pang-atbang sa tocmo.  di hinoon bol-anon akong nailhan sa cebu kay waray man to siya.

kun classroom ray hisgotan, didto sa silliman sa una naay bogalbogalon nga maestro (di tingali relihiyoso pareha sa imong maestro sa usj-r) nga i-short cut na lang niya ang roll call by saying "calumpag, pog, pong".  arang pod tong klaseha.  natunong pod nga tulo ka estudyante nag-apelyidog calumpag, calumpog, ug calumpong.

here comes my bias for underdogs.

Quote from: statesville on June 19, 2010, 04:55:35 AM
Very well said Lorenzo, I felt like a student again sitting in a classroom
   listening to  a brilliant instructor, you are exceptional while keeping
   your composure and stay cool...

Quote from: Lorenzo on June 19, 2010, 05:00:29 AM
Ms. States, this is off the topic, but I like reading your posts because they are filled with wisdom and prudence. Your explanation and posts on matters of biblical truth or medicine is 'to the dot' precise. Thank you, and I am honored to even discuss and share insights with you.

Thanks Ma'am.

congratulations, statesville and lorenzo, on your newfound mutual admiration club.  from wisdom to precision to grammar, you are, indeed, one in glory.  may your tribe multiply like the tribes of israel.  

lorenzo, baby boy,

may I repeat some questions of mine which you, in your omniscience, perhaps failed to see and which, unfortunately, your posts failed to enlighten amid all its garbling:

by reminding me that the term palestine was a “roman impression and not original”, did you mean to say that the palestinian nation does not exist or does not deserve to exist at all?

states’ statement was that 'philistines need to go back to crete'.  is this exactly what you gave credence to with your little inference?  as i have earlier said, that statement is like saying that white americans should go back to europe because they came from there.   

since you yourself posted (#82) that abraham and his followers originally came from ur (present-day iraq), and they were hebrews, who, then, were the true original inhabitants?

what makes the hebrews, who were immigrants as you’ve said, more original to the place compared to other immigrants who were not hebrews?

so?  is it because of hadrian that peace seems impossible there now?

n.b.  these questions are a result of your posts.

regards.

Quote from: Lorenzo on June 19, 2010, 09:08:03 AM
It is because of Hadrian's policy that the world referred to Judea as 'Palestine' for almost 2 millennia; the original inhabitants were not Arabs, but Hebrews who were eventually scattered (hence the Jewish Diaspora). Which goes back to your lecture to Ms. States, which I found rather erroneous. So I added a bit of history for all of us to take into consideration. Since antiquity, this region in the world was known as Yehudah ( from The tribe of Judah).


Warm regards,
baby boy Lorenzo.

let me try to follow the thread of your logic.

so the original inhabitants were hebrews and not arabs, as you say in your post?  (quoted thus)

since you yourself posted (#82) that abraham and his followers originally came from ur (present-day iraq), and they were hebrews, who, then, were the true original inhabitants?  what makes the hebrews, who were immigrants as you’ve said, more original to the place compared to other immigrants who were not hebrews? 

my, everybody there, after all, was an immigrant, though it seems to you that some immigrants are more original than others and thus have more right to the place.  ugh.  let that be said about 5th generation fil-ams, your own generation notwithstanding.  it’s called discrimination, right? 

if my “lecture” to states was erroneous, you may write to historians about how misleading their book entries were.  it looks like you know more than they do.

here’s that “erroneous” post (post #7).  tell me what's in it to undermine states with.

sorry, statesville, but i beg to disagree with this statement (not necessarily with you).  one group of the so-called philistines did come from crete, at around 1190BC; most of these groups of philistines are of mediterranean and greek origin. 

the current palestinians are descendants of abraham as the israelis--- a more apt and current term instead of 'jews'--- are descendants of the same patriarch.  (that makes israelis and palestinians blood relatives in the strict sense of the word.)

lineage aside, if we say that these 'philistines' need to go back to crete (it's not a country but a mediterranean island that is part of greece), they who have settled in gaza for more than a thousand years before christ, surely you will find it unthinkable if present americans (the whites, for purposes of this discussion) are deemed to need to go back to their countries of origin in europe because america belongs to native americans.  unthinkable, right?  to think that white americans started settling in the new world only in the 1500s after christ while the 'philistines' settled in the currently named palestine for more than a millennium before christ.

of note in these current times is that palestinians hold titles to the land and their houses that are bulldozed to make way for israeli settlements.  any country will go to war if this is done to its people.” 

p.s. when you say “since antiquity…”, in essence it means “from ancient times until now…”.  unfortunately, nowadays there’s no such place named yehudah.

sweet dreams,

islander

Quote from: Lorenzo on June 19, 2010, 03:21:36 AM
The only reason why I stated this was because Ms States mentioned Crete, and you tried to undermine her that they (Philistines) were Greek-speaking people; when in reality, Crete itself was under the Greek League. Hellenistic culture is quite vibrant in Crete.

Just making a point.

with apologies to states, i did not undermine her nor try to undermine her.  to undermine is “to weaken, damage or demoralize”.  surely you know that.  nor did i claim that the philistines were not greek-speaking people.  will you please read other people’s posts well first before looking at your beard and deciding that its color is blond?

my “lecture” to states was only because of the impossibility of having philistines go back to crete (and not all of them came from crete), and why, because it’s like saying that white americans need to go back to europe where they came from.  too bad your bit of history that includes mention of hellenistic culture in crete did not help any.  unsa man tawoy labot sa uling sa valencia, dong, sa ihid nga iring sa dimiao?

disagreeing is not undermining.   but what a childish game you play, baby boy.  you seem to try to take other people’s side and praise them to gain their own praises for you or, when that proves impossible, sometimes go as far as deleting posts that didn’t agree with yours.  it’s pathetic, because this forum can make us all friends, in cyberspace at least, even if we disagree on some things.
 
you don’t have to grovel to anyone and in the process risk strewing carelessly and needlessly the facts you've read.

you are an earnest young man, no doubt.  a few more years and more realistic experiences of life’s ups and downs perhaps can tame your loose missile (or firecracker) of an intellect.

Quote from: Lorenzo on June 19, 2010, 03:20:15 AM
All peoples come from different regions, the Philistines came from Crete while Abraham and his followers originally came from the land of Ur (present day Iraq).

Do I believe that Israelis and Palestinians should live in harmony? Sure, they all have the right to live in peace.
But do I believe it will happen? No. There are too many factors that will prevent the two from having peace.

boy, are we agreed.  it’s just that philistines didn’t only come from crete, which was what i meant by my ‘answer’ to states. 

The Philistines reached the southern coast of Israel in several waves. One group arrived in the pre-patriarchal period and settled south of Beersheba in Gerar where they came into conflict with Abraham, Isaac and Ishmael. Another group, coming from Crete after being repulsed from an attempted invasion of Egypt by Rameses III in 1194 BCE, seized the southern coastal area, where they founded five settlements (Gaza, Ascalon, Ashdod, Ekron and Gat).  In the Persian and Greek periods, foreign settlers - chiefly from the Mediterranean islands - overran the Philistine districts. (palestinefacts.org/pf)

Quote from: Lorenzo on June 19, 2010, 03:16:17 AM
Sure, im glad you could keep up.
Auf wiedersehen!

to be honest, i can’t keep up.  i go for wit, that’s why, not mental masturbation nor all sound and fury signifying nothing.  but i have the patience for trying to decipher words like ceasure and raize, which i feel are your latest inventions.

geh mit gott!

Quote from: Lorenzo on June 19, 2010, 03:15:10 AM
It was a mere historical inference, my dear Fraulein (or Frau), which gives precedence to the Hebrew claim. Judea was settled by the Jews, and trade with them was the basis for Roman interaction in the region. A simple inference for all to note. 

and a long shot inference at that, which no one will probably care about, much less be noted by all.  it does not answer the question.

it's frau, mein herr.

Quote from: bugsay on June 19, 2010, 10:45:38 AM
hehehe...karon pa ko kadungog ug flying okoy ug mermaid....paragliding frog hinuon.

paskang lamia nang paragliding frog oy.  my day is made!

Quote from: bugsay on June 19, 2010, 10:33:34 AM
duol kaayo sa akong gitrabahuan sa una sa Cebu ang factory sa Asahi sardines.....ang mga trabahante inig gawas sa factory sundon ug lagong...

flying okoy and mermaids tingali tong mga lagonga no?

Quote from: Raquelproud boholana on June 19, 2010, 02:30:34 AM
perti ning lansaha ug mauhon. worst pa ni ug baho sa lana.

Quote from: hubag bohol on June 19, 2010, 07:45:44 AM
Tomato sauce or natural oil?

na, matipuan tag ahat ug okoy kon mao ni atong shampoo.  ang lalaki, shot sa mermaid. 

ayder op de tu wil du, bai hubs, depende sa scent nga imong gusto.

Quote from: bugsay on June 19, 2010, 10:09:38 AM
bai Lorenz, murag wa pa ni kakita ug ghost si ms isles...pero murag motuo ni siya.

pagkakaron nag sige nalang ni siyag ingon ug , "my gooshh, my gooshhh"

Quote from: Chongki on June 19, 2010, 08:29:15 AM
naghunahuna ko kung akong pakngan ......

Quote from: hubag bohol on June 19, 2010, 08:43:05 AM
Bwahaha! Ayaw ang-anga, Bay Chongks. Pigsata na lang aron makabaton tag kalinaw!

kun ako na man lang, pugngan nakog maayo ang akong kaugalingon.  duol ra ba ni siya sa ginoo, matod niya.  na, masabwangan unya tag gaba.

Quote from: aquarius on June 18, 2010, 10:55:55 PM
Sir Fdaray..


hehehehe.. grabe namuot man ko sa mga apelyidong imong gipang mention... usahay makapangutana ko sa akong kaugalingon, nganong ang ubang isla sa Pilipinas mga nindot man ug apelyido?... makaingon ko unfair kaayo... kinsa ba goy gahatag sa atong mga apelyido?... nganong ang uban spanish man kaayo paminawon labi na magsugod ug delos, monte, dela, villa ug uban .. kinsa bay gaapod apod aning atong apelyido?.. .. unfair ba..! pareha sa akong apelyido, "ytac", may tagalog or english version "bolo" may plural pa "bolos", may synonyms pa.. "lagaraw, pinuti, sundang, punyal, corta, tigib uban pa.. kung i-upgrade mas grabe,  may mga "canyon, guerra, thompson... "...  .. but am proud to be a Boholano... matigbasan gyod nako ug may magpasipala sa akong apelyido.. iitakin ko talaga...  

right on, aqs.  di gyod angay ika-uwaw ang atong mga apelyido.  sa cebu, naa bayay mga camomot ug limotlimot.  wa pay labot sa mga bugtai sa liloan.  kun germany hisgotan, naa si schumacher, schneider, ug bauer.  wa sad tawon tay apelyido nga tighimogsapatos (zapatero tingali, pero katsila na man na), o mananahi ug mag-uuma.  kun amerika o britain hisgotan, naa si peter coffin.  wa baya tawon tay apelyido nga lungon.  kun naa man, na, ayaw na lang kog basola kay modagan ko palayo kay isulod unya ko ani.  tabi tuod, wa baya mag-problema ang managsilingan nga ga-apelyidog mag-away ug mag-uyon didto sa dimiao.
       

OT:  finally, i'm sleepy ms da binsi.  goodnight/good morning.  have a great day!

Quote from: Lorenzo on June 18, 2010, 01:19:07 AM
The Ottoman Turks that used to govern what is now present day Israel (Palestine) conceded it to the British Empire after the ceasure of the 1st World War. The British would be influential in the development of the Israeli State.

The collapse of the the Roman Empire led to the rise of the Byzantine (Eastern Roman), which then collapsed to the Ottoman Turks (which expanded throughout southern and eastern europe for a good 4-5 centuries); before itself collapsing after the Young Turk Revolution and the ending of the 1st World War.

Additionally, i stated that all nations/ empires that tried to exterminate the Jews all collapsed. Your mentioning of the Azteca (mesoamerican), Srivijayan (south east asian) etc has no basis in this since these civilizations had no contact with the Jewish people or implemented a policy of wiping out a large Jewish population.

Azteca was overwhelmed by the Spanish (offspring of the Roman) Empire; while Srivijaya , a major sea-faring empire, was silenced by the Singhasari  and later the Majapahit Empire.

i mentioned other empires in the context of your claim that empires that tried to exterminate the jews had collapsed.  empires collapse, as they all must, whether they try to exterminate jews or not.   

i claimed nothing of the sort that all empires had something to do with the jews.  rather, my point was the collapse of empires is way off the current israeli-palestinian issue. 

and now your lecture is expanding to what happened to those other empires.  o, lorenzo, hilfe!  how would you feel if you’re talking about how fine the weather is and someone answers with the details of the mortgage on his latest sailboat acquisition?         

you either cannot get it or you simply refuse to get it.  the former is a product of a short-circuited intellect, the latter of being too full of oneself. 

i appreciate your stamina, though.  goodnight.

Quote from: Lorenzo on June 18, 2010, 01:02:03 AM
Note: When Hadrian ordered the razing of Jerusalem to the ground, he also ordered the renaming of Provincia Judea to Provincia Syria Palestinia; in honor of the enemy of the Jews, the Philistines. One has to understand that the basis for this renaming was that the Jews earned the enmity of Rome with their revolts and uprisings. Hadrian was adamant about his decision and sent 12 Roman Legions to quell the rebellion.

so?  is it because of hadrian that peace seems impossible there now?

Quote from: Lorenzo on June 18, 2010, 12:47:31 AM
My answer to this question:

I don't think there will ever be peace in the near east.

at least, not in this lifetime.

Quote from: Lorenzo on June 18, 2010, 12:43:19 AM

The Arabs were an ethnic group that originally came from the Arab peninsula and expanded throughout the region as traders, herders and nomads. The forced explusion of the Hebrews and the subsequent raizing of Jerusalem to the ground created a void in the region; and the region was resettled by non-Hebrews.

The term Palestine is in itself vague because the term was coined by Roman promulgation in order to erase the Jewish presence or knowledge thereof from the histories. The entire region of Provincia Judea was renamed to Syria Palestinia after the 2nd Great Jewish Revolt after the Romans sent 12 legions to Judea to raize Jerusalem to the ground and to pacify the revolt (more like a genocide).

The term 'Palestine' is a foreign coinage, Roman to be exact. Byzantium retained the Roman standard and altered Syria Palaestinia to ~ Palaestinia Sultaris. When the Ottoman Turks took control of the region, they called it Falastin (retaining the Roman standard). And when Britain took control of the region after the defeat of the Ottoman Turks in 1918, renamed it as Palestine.

Thus, retaining the Roman standard.

more of the same.  mental indigestion, anyone?  come on, lorenzo.  do you really believe this lecture is necessary and sought after?     

Quote from: Lorenzo on June 18, 2010, 12:43:19 AM

Genetic results can also conclude that all human beings share 99.99% of the same homeobox.

obviously in the sense that we are all human beings (hopefully, anyway).  but then some must be more the same than others, otherwise, what’s the point of the terms israeli and palestinian?  congratulations to us, then.  we could be both palestinian and israeli aside from being boholano.   

Quote from: Lorenzo on June 18, 2010, 12:35:00 AM

And as far as I know, Crete was ruled by the Greeks. That island was ruled by the ancient Minoans (Mycenaean), who were Greek-speaking people. The island was (and is)  linked to the mainland Greek-city states (Greek League). So could have the Philistines been from Crete? Sure, since Crete was part of the Greek League, and since the Philistines were Greek-speaking people.
~~

as sure as one plus one equals two.  and as far as i know, crete is only one of the many places of origin of philistines.  you yourself mentioned arabs as migrants to palestine too in another post of yours.

Quote from: Lorenzo on June 18, 2010, 12:35:00 AM
We're not veering from the topic, rather, my little inference was just to remind you that Palestine was not the original. The term Palestine was a foreign (Roman, to be exact) impression on the near east. So it gives credence to States' statement.

granted then that we're not OT, put another way, does it mean that for peace between israel and palestine, "the philistines need to go back to crete" because palestine was a roman impression on the near east? 

Quote from: ms da binsi on June 19, 2010, 01:47:18 AM
huy pag hot bath sa didto para makatulog ka!

hahaha!  thanks for the tip.  unsaon, arang katulog man god nako ganinang hapon.  nadaot hinoon ang biorhythm.

Quote from: Lorenzo on June 18, 2010, 12:35:00 AM
We're not veering from the topic, rather, my little inference was just to remind you that Palestine was not the original. The term Palestine was a foreign (Roman, to be exact) impression on the near east. So it gives credence to States' statement.

and that little inference failed to remind me that it matters whether or not the term palestine was original.  the reminder was unnecessary.  and useless.
 
by reminding me that the term palestine was a roman impression and not original, did you mean to say that the palestinian nation does not exist or does not deserve to exist at all?    

states’ statement was that 'philistines need to go back to crete'.  is this exactly what you gave credence to with your little inference?  as i have earlier said, that statement is like saying that white americans should go back to europe because they came from there.        

Quote from: Vistabel on June 19, 2010, 12:53:24 AM
usa lang ang solution dihang lugara, i-take over ng UN ang pang governo diha.

kun mahimo pa lang, dugay ra tingaling gibuhat. 

Quote from: bugsay on June 19, 2010, 12:21:55 AM
nakasabot na kong daan sa sentimiento sa mga Palestinian, kay murag diha ko ani pag discussed sa social studies pero dukaduka seguro ko ato..
maingon gyud natong pulonga nga siento porsiento sa mga Palestinian nga namuyo diha pagkakaron, diha sab gyud natawo, ......regardless sa unsay nahitabo sa unang panahon, moingon gyud na sila nga ila nang lugar ug ilang pakamatyan kon ilugon.
so mao ni nahitabo karon....ayayay...murag...milagro na lagi kon makabaton ug kalinaw nang dapita...
- nawong sa palestian nga gipalayas
  - nawong sa palestinian nailugan na ug tugkaran

aha!  bistado nga wa diay maka-recess kay naminaw sa social studies!  bistado sad ang edad kay social studies pa, di sibika.

- nawong nako nga naugtas

p.s.  naa koy keffiyeh ug keyholder with a palestinian flag design as keepsakes from a palestinian i met who does not even have a passport because he is stateless.    the way things are now, a historical wrong is being righted by another wrong.  magubot lang baya ning katawhan kon naay mamintaha.
 

Quote from: ms da binsi on June 19, 2010, 12:12:02 AM

     

shalom!  salaam!  maayo pa ka, mata na.  ako wa pa makatulog.

Quote from: bugsay on June 18, 2010, 09:53:53 AM
bitaw, balik tas topic...sa imong kabahin naa pakahay kalinaw?
uns akahay hinungdan nga mura man ni silag iring ug iro?

magpatuga na lang kog tubag nimo bai bugs, ha?  sige lang god ug di ako ang imong gipangutana... ari na lang ko sa sayon istoryahan kay sa bungbong nga bungol pa sa baki nga nalumos.

a hypothetical situation:

ikaw, bugsay, kaliwat ug immigrants sa amerika.  naningkamot, niasenso, nakapalit ug yuta, balay, uma, kompleto ang titulo sa tanan, apil pa ang kabilin sa imong lolo nga nag-una nimo.

ako, islander, kaliwat ug amerikano nga nilayas sa amerika kaniadto kay gitaboy, gidaogdaog.  gidaogdaog pa gyod ug samot sa mga nasod diin ako nahidagsa.  pero kuwartahan ko ug daghan pa gyod ang malooy nako kay nakonsensya sa unsay akong gidangatan.

ako, nibalik sa amerika kay amerikana lagi gyod ko ug gikapoy na gyod tawon ko ug laroylaroy nga way nasod nga matawag nga akoa.

ikaw, nga nakaturok na sa amerika gipapadaplin sigon sa akong mando.  gi-backhoe imong balay, ang imong yuta akong gibalayan, ako ang nagbuot kon asa ra ka dapit makapuyo, di ka makaadto sa imong uma kon di ka mangayo ug permiso nako.

ako, mobuhat aning tanan kay naay neighborhood bully nga andam nga motabang nako kanunay.  ngano?  kay nakatabang ug dako ang akong kaparyentihan sa iyang pag-asenso.

di na importante ang mga detalye, sama sa mga iro sa akong silingan nga ginganlan ug hadrian, nero, ug caligula.

na, hala, ingnon na lang nato nga ikaw bugsay maoy palestinian ug ako islander maoy israeli.  guerra patani gyod ta, mangamungi kon mangamungi.


p.s.  mahimo sad ug ani nga thread nga ako ang iring ug si baby boy lorenzo ang iro, or vice versa.
   




 

   

Quote from: bugsay on June 18, 2010, 10:48:45 PM
way lana nga gi dihog sa akong gisulti....labi na pod nga way kaguran nga gihapak...hehehe
tinuod to ms isles..

hehe, nituo ko, bai bugs, kay tanang lana akong gihakop karong panahona, morag si bai hubs nga nag-stockpile ug mga hulagway sa inyong paboritong mascot. 

Quote from: ms da binsi on June 18, 2010, 10:29:35 AM

nindot raman nang lecture basta sex education sus mag banganga jud ko ana pero aside ana, pwera nalanng!! mag gamit na laman ko ug EARPLUGS! hahahhah!

attagirl!  maayo ka pa, earplugs ray solution.  ako mantinir na lang intawon ug bungog.

Quote from: hubag bohol on June 18, 2010, 10:03:07 AM
He he, si Ms. Isle ra man gud ang nilahutay og tubay sa diskusyon diri...

Bitaw, lisod kon molapdos, labi na kon tinadtarang kaguran ang gamiton! Bwahaha!

my fault.  nasujop nga wa kabantay.  kapoy sad baya ning magpalupad ta ug kaguran.

Quote from: bugsay on June 18, 2010, 09:56:07 AM
bwhahahaha..atot uy, nganong naapil na man si ms isles ani?
hadlok ra ba ko ato kay isog ug taas ang tango....
pero ganahan kong mobasa sa iyang mga punto...
labi na'g mauy molatos, mobunal, mobangag, mowitik ug molapdos....hehehe...malingaw ko

ms isles is sweet (ako na).  salamat nga malingaw diay ka, bai bugs. 

p.s. apila nga mamaak, manutho, ug manipnga sad ko kun magkalisod.   

maayo pod kunong gamiton ang sauce sa sardinas.  bisan unsa nga brand.  bantay lag utitod.

welcome, melbox.  what a creative name you've got. 

i cope with stress by reading, sleeping, taking a shower at unholy hours (like 1:00 a.m.), or feeding stray cats and dogs, not necessarily in that order.  and before some philosophical musings by some sipat tb members veer towards strange ideas, let me say offhand that i do these things one at a time as a matter of course (who can read while taking a shower or sleep while feeding stray cats and dogs or even let stray cats and dogs read while i feed myself for that matter?). 

Quote from: hubag bohol on June 18, 2010, 05:50:42 PM
Unsay inaton, Ms. Isle?

obvious ba nga bukton ang gihisgotan?  kun naa pay laing inatunon, di na sapayan angayon kay gawas nga ga-inusara ra ni, magbuot pa gyod siyag inat ug iya. 

unsay hitsura?  ikatulo, kung language pa ni scarb nga tua sa alemanya, siya nga usa ka tunay nga tiunay ug gimingaw na tang/mong tanan kay dugaydugay na siyang wa motingog sa tb:  pizot mungtanansch, hahaha!

Quote from: hubag bohol on June 18, 2010, 06:42:58 PM
Bwahaha! Kon maohon, mao ni ang magic words: "abri birat kay hereinkommen ang schleissenoten"!

unsay hitsura?  ikaduha, opawitlog luyatsaging.  hawaiian diay toh.

Quote from: bugsay on June 18, 2010, 06:23:48 PM
hehehe...unsay kahay porma sa aswang nga hybrid?......basin taas ang pangil pero dumpol.

unsay hitsura?  una, pangag ug pangil, morag avatar sa usa ninyo.

kaliwat, bai bugs.   kaliwat sa loay, sa dimiao, ug sa valencia.  valencia is one thing in common i have with baby boy lorenzo.  

opkors.

Quote from: hubag bohol on June 18, 2010, 06:02:23 PM
Ingon ani diay ang mga minyo, mag struggle-struggle?

opkors.  maayog pareha nimo tanan bana nga mas maayo moiglas-iglas.

Naa poy Barangay Kalbaryo sa Loay.  Suwayi ninyog adto pod.

oy, nasaag man ko...

hoy, mga hybrid nga aswang... bantay gyod mo ron sa inyong mga asawa. 

my 2 very real reasons for this tb affair:

1)  the range covered by the exchange goes from the stupidest to the most enlightened

2)  the sense of humor of the members range from the dumbest to the wittiest

could we ask for anything more?

maangay ug kainat?

i see dead people.  (sshhhh...)