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Author Topic: Should Roman Catholic Priest Allowed To GEt Married? (Please Help for debate)  (Read 43114 times)

sab_sad

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please help us to defend our debate for tomorrows activities.. Bali we are in affirmative side..We are in favor na mag-minyo ang Roman Catholic Priest. Help me know the corresponding reference and verses in bible kay Im not familiar kaU.. thanks

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I am contra, one of our topics in Ateneo de Davao University religion class was celibacy.  It is right and proper that the priest and those serving this vocation stays celibate because...,
serving God means complete whole being, soul and body, I have to hurry to work, you will hear more from me folks!

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sab_sad

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madam gingah dli gyud maopen page 1 lng the rest dli nko ka open...wla sa page 1 ang answer sa akoh gi ask..if posble pwdi u ma repost here?thanks

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hazel

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Help me know the corresponding reference and verses in bible kay Im not familiar kaU.. thanks

check this:
(Jn 3:29, Rev 18:23, 19:7, 21:9, 21:17)


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Macky Ferniz

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It does not necessarily mean that to serve God wholeheartedly is to become celibate. But based on real facts, it is humanly impossible to perform the task as a priest if he is having a family. I will give you an example: If there is a female choir who needs to practice at early dawn, would the wife allow her husband if she is a jealous type?

Another example is the priest who became a martyr in East Timor. At the time of the seige, any married human being would have second thoughts of running for the sake of his family instead of choosing to die as a martyr.

That's why it is a personal vow for only one reason and that is to physically serve the church full time.

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Lorenzo

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It is possible for a man who is Roman Catholic to join Holy Orders and still retain his marriage and fatherhood (that is if he has a family). This is called Deaconship.

I have a very good friend who is an attorney and at the same time a Deacon at our local Catholic Church  that I attend back home.



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Lorenzo

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This is the robe of a Deacon of the Church:



The Role of the Deacon:

The ministry of the deacon in the Roman Catholic Church is described as one of service in three areas: the Word, the Liturgy and Charity. The deacon's ministry of the Word includes proclaiming the Gospel at the Eucharist, preaching and teaching. His ministry at the Altar includes various parts of the Mass proper to the deacon, including being the proper minister of the cup. The ministry of charity involves service to the poor and marginalized and working with parishioners to help them become more involved in such ministry. As clerics, they are required to recite the Liturgy of the Hours. Deacons can administer the sacrament of Baptism and serve as the church's witness at the sacrament of Holy Matrimony, which the bride and groom administer to each other. Deacons may preside at funerals, various services such as Benediction of the Blessed Sacrament and they may give blessings. They cannot hear confession and give absolution, anoint the sick, or say Mass.

At Mass, the deacon is the ordinary minister of the proclamation of the Gospel (in fact, a priest, bishop, or even the Pope should not proclaim the Gospel if a deacon is present) and of Holy Communion (primarily, of the Precious Blood). Deacons have the faculty to preach the homily by right of their ordination unless the priest presider retains that ministry to himself at any particular Mass.

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Macky Ferniz

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How about THE LAST MARRIED POPE?

He was Adrian II (867-872). Actually he was married before he ascended the papal throne, but after being elected pontiff, he refused to adopt celibacy or renounce his family. His wife, Stephania, and their daughter lived in the Lateran Palace with him for a short time. Later, one of his chief rivals abducted his daughter and married her by force. Many previous popes had been happily married. In fact, Pope Hormisdas (514-523) was the proud father of Pope Silverius (536-538). Although Adrian (or Hadrian, as he is sometimes called) was the last to marry, subsequent popes fathered numerous children.

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ok lang mamenyo ang pari basta sa babae lang mamenyo!

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Lorenzo

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How about THE LAST MARRIED POPE?

He was Adrian II (867-872). Actually he was married before he ascended the papal throne, but after being elected pontiff, he refused to adopt celibacy or renounce his family. His wife, Stephania, and their daughter lived in the Lateran Palace with him for a short time. Later, one of his chief rivals abducted his daughter and married her by force. Many previous popes had been happily married. In fact, Pope Hormisdas (514-523) was the proud father of Pope Silverius (536-538). Although Adrian (or Hadrian, as he is sometimes called) was the last to marry, subsequent popes fathered numerous children.

This is a very good point, Mr. Ferniz.

And I think these were the contributions to the abuse of power of the Catholic Church before the Great Reformation in the late 16th century. Previous to the 100 Years War.

Prior to the Great Reformation, there were abuses committed by members of the Holy Roman Catholic Church. By the Grace of God, reforms were augmented for the benefit of the Living Church and for the People and Christians that demanded to hear the Word of God.



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Moyhua

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Kung pwede na ma minyo ang pare, pwede ba kaha sila makasal sa catholic church?

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Lorenzo

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First,

It would be impossible for this to happen because the duties of the Priest is paramount, and must not be hindered with the details that concerns the laity.

To be called and into the Royal Priesthood of the Holy Roman Catholic Church is not an everyday occurence, and this calling is the highest of all callings.

This calling requires one to forgoe all measures of biological production. Total Sacrifice.
A priest does not marry a woman because a priest is married to Christ's Word. And to Christ Alone.

If you are a Roman Catholic and you wish to retain your relationship and yet at the same time want to have a role in the Church, one can become a Deacon of the Church (if one is a man). One can also play a role in reading the Gospel as well as being Eucharistic Minister and or a member of the Chorus.

If you want to minister to the Church, one can also be a Catholic Minister in Catholic Biblical Studies. As well as a Youth Minister.



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buwadsanga

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is a deacon a priest? dili siguro murag sipyat manka bai lor.

Deacon - A cleric ranking just below a priest in Roman Catholic churches

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Barbaro

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Anyone in the Christian Church should be able to get married to one person of the opposite sex..

Celebacy isn't a requirement, it's a choice of what they decide to give up. It's not a sin, it's a manmade requirement. It does more harm than good.


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Lorenzo

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Anyone in the Christian Church should be able to get married to one person of the opposite sex..

Celebacy isn't a requirement, it's a choice of what they decide to give up. It's not a sin, it's a manmade requirement. It does more harm than good.


That is true. But other Christian Denominations are protestants. They have 'Protested' against the virtues and the sanctity of the Holy Roman Catholic Church. Differences in Scriptural Teachings as well as in the Traditions enancted have provided the foundation of the Protesting against the Holy Living Churches.

Yes, a Baptist Minister can marry a woman. A Luthern Minister can marry. A Presbyterian can marry. An Anglican can marry and can even allow a woman to be a priest.

But this is not so in the Holy Roman Catholic Church. You want to remain your gifts as a Layperson, one should continue his or her duty to God as a faithful Christian Catholic. Continue your duties to your family, and to continue to read Scripture and uphold the Sacraments. That is your duty as a Layperson.

The Royal Priesthood are reserved for those who would sacrifice their body to the teachings of Christ. A priest, by virtue of his calling, IS married. He is Married to Christ. And to Christ Alone.



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Lorenzo

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is a deacon a priest? dili siguro murag sipyat manka bai lor.

Deacon - A cleric ranking just below a priest in Roman Catholic churches

Buwad,

A deacon of the Church is not a priest. However, has some of the authority that a priest has. The Deacon is a Layperson who has committed himself to Holy Orders. So let us say that a married man, who has children and has a profession outside of the church is compelled to join Holy Orders by the virtue of his faith and his zeal to Christ and to the teachings of the Only Apostolic Church, The Holy Roman Catholic Church, then he can be ordained a Deacon.

As a deacon, you are able to read the Gospel in mass, assist the Priest in the sanctification of the Eucharist, the baptism of the faithful. The role of the deacon is to assist in mass and to offer the Word.

I know a deacon in my local church who is a Civil Trial Lawyer by profession, who is married and has his own children and grandchildren. He is an attorney of the law outside of religious life, but when he is called to assist in mass--as in the Sabbath--and fulfills his duties.

God Bless,

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Moyhua

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A catholic priest should not be allowed to get married. If he said Yes to God, he cannot say yes to other.

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Macky Ferniz

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Calm down everyone. Don't get too serious.

I have a joke.

Now, celebacy can be easy as 123. Thanks to these two inventions: "Internet and Soap".

Am I talking silly celebacy?

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Lorenzo

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When I attended the Catholic Collegiate Conference some 2 years ago with my friends and with our Catholic Chaplain in Allegheny College--we went to Erie, Pennsylvania to join some other hundreds of American College Catholics.

We discussed multiple topics, namely:
1) The Re-evangelization of Roman Catholics--and the Youth
2) Understanding the basis of Faith in Tradition and Scripture
3) The similarities with other Christian Denominations --and differences--and how to build strong friendships and bridges with them

4) The Calling of Holy Orders per se ACCEPTANCE of the Calling God has given us.

Most of us in the conference were male, around the age of 20 to 30. And our accompanying priests shared with us the inspiring words to accept the Calling of God to the royal priesthood.

I did meet a good friend there, a very good friend by the name of Cody. When I met him I was only 21 and he was still 19 and already a 2nd year junior seminarian. I have so much respect for him and inspired by him, as well as the calling that he has CHOSEN to accept. Which is into the ROYAL PRIESTHOOD of the Roman Catholic Church.

He has chosen to accept the calling, which God has given to all men. I still maintain my friendship with Cody ans he is already a senior seminarian now. I do pray for men like him here in the 'States and around the world who have chosen to choose to accept the calling of Christ. To minister to His Living Church.

I pray for all our seminarians, all our priests and for more men to come to join the priesthood. In the name of Our Lord, Jesus Christ, Who is God Blessed Forever.




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Wow Dodong you lost weight!!!! how did you do it dear? Or did you really lost some wieght/size? or pwerte lang nimong hiyak??


PS, you really look good!

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Not that much, 'te. I just made changes in my habits.

a) Limiting my intake of red meat
b) I opt to bike to school instead of driving
c) I drink green tea alot; no more coffee and no more caffeinated drinks
d) Lack of sleep, lol.

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aira_galope

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Not that much, 'te. I just made changes in my habits.

a) Limiting my intake of red meat
b) I opt to bike to school instead of driving
c) I drink green tea alot; no more coffee and no more caffeinated drinks
d) Lack of sleep, lol.
good new habits Doc.! ;)

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aira_galope

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Roman Catholic priests should not be allowed to be married. They are to be Christ's earthly representatives, to live as He did, and that cannot be done with a wife in tow. When a priest takes his vows, he consecrates his life completely to God and forsakes all earthly attachments. A man cannot serve two masters, and it would be far too easy to follow a wife's wishes over God's.



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Lorenzo

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The beauty of the Seminary is that it gives a man to study scripture as well as to complete the life that Christ has called them into. 4 years as a junior seminarian and then another 4 years in senior seminary. There is time for one to contemplate as well as to learn the ways of the royal priesthood in constitution with tradition and scriptural teachings.

So if there is a change in vows, then one can release his vows and to proceed into a life of Layman-ship.

I once considered the priesthood in my college years. Attending catholic retreats as well as talking with catholic priests and seminarians allowed me to understand the responsibilities of a priest when one adorns the priestly vestiges to Minister and to Teach and to Feed Christ's Flock. In Christ's Apostolic Church that he himself told to St. Peter, "Go and Feed My Sheep".

The responsibilities of Priesthood is heavy, as one is naturally fighting his human instincts. Prayer and Solititude in benediction of the Sacred Sacraments and Professing of the Word is what strengthens them in their ways. Pray for our Priests. That they continue to bear the cross as Christ did and to continue to preach His word to the dismal places of this world. A light unto the world.

In the end that is why I did not proceed into the seminary. It is sacrifice. Total sacrifice. And no ordinary man are called into it; it is the highest of all callings, in my honest opinion. Pray for our seminarians; the junior seminarians, the senior seminarians, for the consecration of new priests and for most of all for our priests.



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Lorenzo

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Lord Jesus, we your people pray to You for our priests. You have given them to us for OUR needs. We pray for them in THEIR needs.

We know that You have made them priests in the likeness of your own priesthood. You have consecrated them, set them aside, annointed them, filled them with the Holy Spirit, appointed them to teach, to preach, to minister, to console, to forgive, and to feed us with Your Body and Blood.

Yet we know, too, that they are one with us and share our human weaknesses. We know too that they are tempted to sin and discouragement as are we, needing to be ministered to, as do we, to be consoled and forgiven, as do we. Indeed, we thank You for choosing them from among us, so that they understand us as we understand them, suffer with us and rejoice with us, worry with us and trust with us, share our beings, our lives, our faith.

We ask that You give them this day the gift You gave Your chosen ones on the way to Emmaus: Your presence in their hearts, Your holiness in their souls, Your joy in their spirits. And let them see You face to face in the breaking of the Eucharistic bread.

We pray to You, O Lord, through Mary the mother of all priests, for Your priests and for ours.


 Amen

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LEOGIRL

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For me it is not good that priest will marry.  They are call to this mission to serve God and the church to the fullest.  How could he serve his best kung may pamilya sya, mabahin iyang attention...
 

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This question is absurd because it's a fact Catholic priest cannot marry. What is the particular reason for pushing this point? is it just for the sake of getting married? Or is it in relevance to His ministry? Priesthood is not a state. it is a ministry. service. if so, does his getting married inhibit/lessen his ability to minister people? i think the debate lies here.

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Absolutely. And that is the point. Marriage does lessen his ability to minister. And that is the point.


This idea of a celibate clergy came from the Jews, John the Baptist, Jesus, and the Apostle Paul.

The Jews. The Talmud argues that a person whose “soul is bound up with the Torah and is constantly occupied with it” may remain celibate (Maimonides, Laws of Marriage 15.3). For example, Yahweh ordered the prophet Jeremiah not to marry (Jeremiah 16:1-4). Moreover, the Essenes was a group that was active in Jesus’ time that practiced celibacy and thought by most scholars to be the authors of the Dead Sea Scrolls.

Additionally, a Priest in the Roman Catholic Church is an emulation of Christ Jesus. A Shepard of Christ's Anointed Church. Did Christ Jesus get married? Of course not. So the same shall be for Priests in his Anointed and Established Church, the Roman Catholic Church.

The Apostle Paul is explicit about his celibacy (see 1 Cor. 7). There is also evidence in the gospel of Matthew for the practice of celibacy among at least some early Christians, in the famous passage about becoming “eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven” (Matt. 19:12).

Matthew 6:24 is definite on this, "No one can serve two masters, because either he will hate one and love the other, or be loyal to one and despise the other."
As a Priest, you serve and are anointed in Christ. You are His. You cannot serve your wife and children and at the same time minister to the Church. Forgo that conclusion.




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do you know that in America (incl. Canada), some priests of Anglican Church, who are married and with children, moved to Catholic Church (with their wife and kids)? although this situation faces some degree of grievances among Catholic clergy, maybe raises eyebrows among some conservative parishioners and poses some issues to Rome, these ex-Anglican priests serve or minister the people no any lesser than the Catholic clergy. Wives and children are not masters; they are partners. We are not dealing here with doctrine, but ministry.

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There were study that there is highest rate of divorce among protestant  minister.Main reason for high rate divorce is lack of time on the wife ang the family.Protestant minister tend to spend more time counceling on other couples problem and some other church activity.Yes you can't serve two master as same time.


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Lorenzo

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do you know that in America (incl. Canada), some priests of Anglican Church, who are married and with children, moved to Catholic Church (with their wife and kids)? although this situation faces some degree of grievances among Catholic clergy, maybe raises eyebrows among some conservative parishioners and poses some issues to Rome, these ex-Anglican priests serve or minister the people no any lesser than the Catholic clergy. Wives and children are not masters; they are partners. We are not dealing here with doctrine, but ministry.

We are dealing with both doctrine and ministry. As ministry affects doctrine, and vice versa.

To preach the Word of God, completely and unabated, one must focus fully on Christ. Mind and Body.

This is manifest in the Holy Roman Catholic Church. The anointed Church of Jesus Christ. The very rock the he had established in Apostle Peter.

One cannot serve two masters.

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Lorenzo

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do you know that in America (incl. Canada), some priests of Anglican Church, who are married and with children, moved to Catholic Church (with their wife and kids)? although this situation faces some degree of grievances among Catholic clergy, maybe raises eyebrows among some conservative parishioners and poses some issues to Rome, these ex-Anglican priests serve or minister the people no any lesser than the Catholic clergy. Wives and children are not masters; they are partners. We are not dealing here with doctrine, but ministry.

Christ Jesus did not marry. The Saviour did not marry. A priest, who is made in the image of Christ, upon entering the Royal Priesthood, is enrobed by the Holy Spirit. As Christ Jesus was the Sheppard, so too, is the priest.

He teaches, as Christ does. He forgives in the Name of Christ, He baptizes in the Name of Christ, He absolves in the Name of Christ. He provides in the Name of Christ. He prepares the Body and Blood of Christ, as Christ did when he was in Earth, in bodily form.

We are dealing with complete adoration of Christ Jesus. Christ Jesus, did not marry, nor did Saint John the Baptist. Nor did Apostle Paul.



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soon-to-be-wives in the Eatern Catholics whose priests are allowed to marry are included  in the formation with their soon-to-be-husbands. i think they are happy.

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You are arguing with extramedullary examples, Glacier, though I credit you.

There was a great schism between the Western and Universal Roman Catholic Church with the Primacy of the East in such a way that was influenced by the Imperial disposition of Constantinople to monopolize Imperial Authority and Imperial Religion.

It was pride, ultimately, of the Eastern Roman Empire (Constantinole) that forgoed its oaths to the early church fathers, and its apostacy from the Roman Catholic Church. It branched from the true church teachings. History has not judged Constantinople favorably. As it was conquored the Muslim Turks in 1451, and its Primacy was moved continuously, moving to Bulgaria, then to Kiev in Ukraine, then even to Moscow Russia. There is no singular religious body in Eastern Orthodoxy, after its schism with Rome. Simply because the East dropped its recognition of Apostolic Primacy, that was in the Pope.

The presence of 'Eastern Catholics' and or 'Greek Catholics' is a recent phenomenon, that we see, which is an attempt of the East to reunify and re-integrate with the Western Roman Catholic Church.

Additionally, there are extradordinary clauses for Eastern Catholic Priests because Eastern Orthodox priests are allowed to marry. The main difference here is that eastern orthodox does not recognize the primacy of the Holy Father, the Pope of the Holy Roman Catholic Church.

So, what we see, in the development of 'Eastern Catholicism' is the mingling of Eastern Orthodox tradition with Catholic Tradition.

It is a recent phenomenon that has occured, Thank the Lord Jesus Christ, that has allowed the development of reunification between Catholics and Orthodox.

Traditionally, and gospel-wise, Catholic teachings are similar to Orthodoxy.

Pragmatics, my dear, it was pragmatics that led to the schism.

Praise be to God Almighty in Heaven, that there is unison in His Church and bridging of brothers.

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Eventually, when the Eastern Catholic Rite is fully augmented into the Body of Christ, these extrajudiciary rights for Eastern Catholics to marry will eventually abate.



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BISHOPS, ELDERS AND DEACONS MUST BE HUSBANDS OF ONE WIFE
 
  If deacons, elders and bishops from non Catholic churches can be a husband of one wife, why priests
are not allowed to be husbands  of one wife? This is Biblical.


The Bible says in 1Timothy 3:2 that bishops and elders should be "husband of one wife". So we see that monogamy is a holier way and spiritual leaders should be exemplary in this. Polygamy thus is the permissive and not the perfect will of God.

Taken that the translation of the passage regarding bishops, elders and deacons having only one wife is right, it does imply that it is acceptable in the scriptures for other men in the congregation to be polygamous. When something is not the perfect will of God for a particular person, but it is also not sinful and thus permitted by God, it becomes the permissive will of God. God will never accept anything sinful to be permissible. Thus if something is permissible, it cannot be sinful. Polygamy thus cannot be considered sinful. Just like monogamy and celibacy, polygamy may be God's permissive will for some while it may be the perfect will of God for others. Each will have to seek God for what is specific for his life. If polygamy is sinful, then the Bible would, as with other sins, have constantly admonish and remind all men to be strictly monogamous, but the warning against polygamy is never addressed anywhere in the Scriptures. 

Now, further examination of the contextual understanding of this verse tells us that the instructions given in this particular passage were very cultural in context. Paul, in the same epistle, said in 1Tim 2:9-12 that women should not have braided hair or be adorned with gold, pearls nor costly clothing. He also said that women are not permitted to teach. We see that these are all acceptable today and even much more. Today, we have God-anointed, God-vindicated women teachers, senior pastors, prophets, missionaries and renowned preachers. This passage was a part of Paul’s personal letter to advise the young minister Timothy, his protege and pastor who was faced with all sorts of pressures, conflicts, and challenges from the church and the surrounding culture. The emphasis of the passage was a guideline, not strict qualifications for the appointment of faithful and responsible leaders who should be capable of running their own household well. He also said that their children must be in submission with all reverence. We cannot penalize a spiritual man of service just because he has delinquent children. Samuel had children who took bribes, but God did not disqualify him from service. It was evil men who took occasion to fault him. Moreover, if one is to stick to the "non-compromising" stand of husband of one wife, then he should also disqualify the countless anointed male pastors who are single, whether still unmarried or widowed or divorced and all female pastors. Even Apostle Paul would be disqualified.

I would venture to emphasize that we would have to use the instructions as a guide only. Rigid adherence to this entire passage without using an intelligent discernment of cultural and contextual application can be disastrous. It would mean:

Women are not allowed to have hair-dos nor wear gold, pearl or costly clothing, and if they so do, they would have to be considered improper.
Countless anointed women who are called to be pastors, teachers and leaders would have to be taken down from serving God.
Even unmarried single men would have to be removed from the position of a pastor, elder or deacon. Even Jesus, and perhaps Paul and some apostles would not be qualified.
Also, a man who has problematic children would be disqualified, so would the prophet Samuel if he lives today.
If a person is not actively hospitable, he would also be disqualified.
If he does not have a good standing with the world because he had committed some crimes before, he also stands no chance at all.
If they have  wives that seem problematic or are not considered by others to be virtuous enough, they would also be disqualified.
We know that hardly anybody stands a chance to be an overseer or elder of a church if we put him through this laundry check-list. What about other qualifications like sound theological degrees and good social etiquette? Has Paul forgotten them? I also wonder if Paul's outward disposition is gentle enough for the job. So we realize that the items on the check-list only serve as a guide, which also means that the "husband of one wife" is not to be taken as a rigid instruction but a guide to measure one's availability and capacity, especially when one was not raised in the Jewish ways of patriarchy and house management. If this instruction is to be adhered to rigidly, then the rest of the qualifications must be rigidly fulfilled too, implying that countless pastors and elders are not acceptable before God.

Also interestingly, this "strictly monogamy" line of interpretation would also mean that great leaders like Moses, David and Abraham are all going to be disqualified from ruling with Christ. One may contend that they would then be neither male nor female. But they can never erase the fact that their lives were polygamous when God qualified them as leaders and exemplars, and into eternity they still acknowledge their wives. When Jesus said that they would be neither male nor female in the resurrection, He merely meant that they no longer have sexual relationships - a good answer to the trick questions of the doubting Pharisees. It's not that they would not recognize or disown their wives. If a monogamist would acknowledge his wife, so would a polygamist. So a continual polygamous relationship if deemed sinful would imply a sin that goes into eternity. We would have to first answer the question as to whether Abraham and David and their multiple wives would be in Heaven. The answer of course is YES. Thus it is clear that the enforcement of strict monogamy on leaders of the church is inconsistent with the ways of the unchanging God. It is definitely out.

Yet there is more than meets the eye. The word "one" (Strong No. 3391) has been translated elsewhere also as "first". We see this same instructional guideline repeated in Titus 1:6, where the same word "one" is translated as "first" in Titus 3:10 to reject a divisive man after the first and second admonition. This same word "mia" in Greek is also translated in several other places in the New Testament as "first" rather than "one", for example "first day of the week" in John 20:1. Easterners like the Chinese still call the "first day of the week" also as "number one day of the week". Thus, it is also possible to translate the passages of 1Tim 3:2 and Titus 1:6 as saying that bishops and elders should be a blameless, "first wife husband" who is capable of taking care of his household. This means that he should be capable of keeping his first wife and managing his children well, which means that he can be polygamous. This flows well with the teaching of Christ about divorce and also with the verses in Malachi 3:15,16 that say God is against one who deals treacherously with the wife of his youth (forsaking first wife) and that he hates divorce. God is not against addition and added responsibility. He is against subtraction and irresponsibility. Since polygamy is in order, many divorcees including ministers should attempt to bring back their first wives and love them. I am not in any way saying that because of "first wife husband", all bishops and elders must be polygamous. But rather, because the word "mia" can be translated as "one" and "first", this verse cannot be used to support the proposition that bishops and elders must be monogamous, not forgetting the cultural and contextual "guidance" aspect of the instructions. There is simply no ground against leaders being polygamous in these pastoral passages. No way. Also, in 1Tim 5:9, the specific numeric "one" is used in application to "wife of one husband" (Strong No. 1520). Why wouldn't the same author of the same epistle use the same word if he had meant a same absolute numerical "one" in both cases? The answer is obvious, the meaning of "first wife" as in the case of elders and bishops and the numerical "one husband" as in the latter case of the same epistle. 

There has been further contention (as would always be) that according to some 'authoritative' resources, the word "mia" in Greek language is to be correctly translated as "one", referring to a number because the word for sequential order ("first") of things and persons is the word "protos". Thus it means that the people in the congregation can be polygamous while pastors, bishops and deacons should be monogamous. For this I have 4 comments:

1. For all I know, the sources of such Greek "experts" were basically materials written by western Christians who made specific reference to this verse in their linguistic works. Thus we cannot discount the fact that such authorities may still be bias.

2. In the present time when God is using a royal priesthood where leadership and influence are not confined to bishops, pastors and deacons alone, making such a guide into a Law for just these 3 categories of leaders would be inappropriate. Also, where is it in the epistles that says the lifestyle of a spiritual leader should be religiously or naturally different from others believers? Anything that is inappropriate for the leaders would also be inappropriate for the others. This pattern is consistent throughout the NT of royal priesthood. God in His sovereign will, shifted the priesthood to include the laity and the line which separates them from the clergy is fast disappearing. We know there are those "ordinary" members of the congregation who are doing much more ministry than the clergy, influencing and leading the people as never before. So where then do we draw the line as to who should be polygamous and who should not be?

3. Leaders are supposed to be examples and imposing monogamy on them violates the overall context of the Word, watering down its timeless value and application, undermining the spirituality of the Patriarchs and making those who are polygamous, second class and unspiritual. Thus taking such line of interpretation that it's a must for leaders to be monogamous also means that polygamy is Biblically discriminated against.

4. It also means that a member who is polygamous would have to put away his other wives or wait for them to leave him or die, otherwise he is condemned to be only a follower and a member in the church, no matter how well he runs his family or how anointed he becomes. There is no more hope for him to advance in God's Kingdom.  It seems he can polygamous while he is a younger believer and a ordinary member of the congregation, yet he is condemned by this same scriptural right and be barred from becoming an spiritual leader as he advances in the Lord. This is absolutely ridiculous! God is not like that. This line of theology condemns polygamous people to be unspiritual followers. 

Despite all theological and technical exposition regarding this word "mia, to those who are still insistent on a being erroneously religious about being "a husband of one wife" I would like to tell them that a guideline is to be precisely a guide, not a Law. What Paul wrote was contextually a guide (taken that "mia" must mean "one", which is proven wrong) for the new church at that time, not always. Even so, the Law is for man and not man for the Law. We must be careful lest we be like the Jews, who fell into legalistically and ritualistically living out the Law and not the spirit of the Law. As what Martin Luther said, "Learn from me, how difficult a thing it is to throw off errors confirmed by the example of all the world, and which, through long habit, have become a second nature to us."

Further technical reading of the word "mia":
http://home.sprynet.com/sprynet/jbwwhite/HEIS_MIA.html
Jeff White is a friend and a wonderful teacher of the Word.

Copyright © Israel CS Lim, 1998



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glacier_71

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We are dealing with both doctrine and ministry. As ministry affects doctrine, and vice versa.

To preach the Word of God, completely and unabated, one must focus fully on Christ. Mind and Body.

This is manifest in the Holy Roman Catholic Church. The anointed Church of Jesus Christ. The very rock the he had established in Apostle Peter.

One cannot serve two masters.
You are arguing with extramedullary examples, Glacier, though I credit you.

There was a great schism between the Western and Universal Roman Catholic Church with the Primacy of the East in such a way that was influenced by the Imperial disposition of Constantinople to monopolize Imperial Authority and Imperial Religion.

It was pride, ultimately, of the Eastern Roman Empire (Constantinole) that forgoed its oaths to the early church fathers, and its apostacy from the Roman Catholic Church. It branched from the true church teachings. History has not judged Constantinople favorably. As it was conquored the Muslim Turks in 1451, and its Primacy was moved continuously, moving to Bulgaria, then to Kiev in Ukraine, then even to Moscow Russia. There is no singular religious body in Eastern Orthodoxy, after its schism with Rome. Simply because the East dropped its recognition of Apostolic Primacy, that was in the Pope.

The presence of 'Eastern Catholics' and or 'Greek Catholics' is a recent phenomenon, that we see, which is an attempt of the East to reunify and re-integrate with the Western Roman Catholic Church.

Additionally, there are extradordinary clauses for Eastern Catholic Priests because Eastern Orthodox priests are allowed to marry. The main difference here is that eastern orthodox does not recognize the primacy of the Holy Father, the Pope of the Holy Roman Catholic Church.

So, what we see, in the development of 'Eastern Catholicism' is the mingling of Eastern Orthodox tradition with Catholic Tradition.

It is a recent phenomenon that has occured, Thank the Lord Jesus Christ, that has allowed the development of reunification between Catholics and Orthodox.

Traditionally, and gospel-wise, Catholic teachings are similar to Orthodoxy.

Pragmatics, my dear, it was pragmatics that led to the schism.

Praise be to God Almighty in Heaven, that there is unison in His Church and bridging of brothers.
i make myself clear here. my argument is that does married state of priests inhibit/lessen his ability to provide faithful ministry to people. i say: No. Why from our experience with other  denominations and brethren of Eastern rites, there is no absolute proof of denying its possibility. Married ministers have served as effectively as non-married priests do. i'm not talking of doctrine here. it's reality.
futhermore, early leaders of the church (post-apostoic times), called "elders", were married, chosen from among the faithful to SERVE and LEAD. celibacy was not a prerequisite. to cite an example, in the Acts, the apostles laid their hands upon Stephen and 6 others to serve the Word but there was no imposition of such rule that they should not marry, or only single can be allowed to serve the "ecclesia". yet, the communities grew each day.
the theologians of the church say that celibacy is not intrinsic to the priesthood. the priesthood of Christ is not about celibacy; it is about service (to put it simply) liturgically and pastorally. it's the ministry that defines the priesthood, not his state of celibate life. that's why anyone can serve, whether ordained or not, married or celibate. "kalooy sab sa pari no. inig human sa ordinasyon, moingon dayon ang mga tawo, AY SI FATHER DI NA MAKAASAWA. ingon pod tawn tong usa ka pari, "anu ba sa tingin nyo ang pagpapari, pigil lang nang pigil?"
 i am saying i don't admire priests who are faithful to their celibate life and have done their service well to their flock. i do.
it is only that with my observation and understanding of this particular issue, the Roman Catholic Church has to be more open and listen to Spirit and the signs of the times...

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fdaray

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I  agree with you glacier that Roman Catholic church must be open minded at this time and that the truth will not  be hide not like in the early centuries AD. Being  a married pastor does not lessen his ability for  faithful service to God.
i make myself clear here. my argument is that does married state of priests inhibit/lessen his ability to provide faithful ministry to people. i say: No. Why from our experience with other  denominations and brethren of Eastern rites, there is no absolute proof of denying its possibility. Married ministers have served as effectively as non-married priests do. i'm not talking of doctrine here. it's reality.
futhermore, early leaders of the church (post-apostoic times), called "elders", were married, chosen from among the faithful to SERVE and LEAD. celibacy was not a prerequisite. to cite an example, in the Acts, the apostles laid their hands upon Stephen and 6 others to serve the Word but there was no imposition of such rule that they should not marry, or only single can be allowed to serve the "ecclesia". yet, the communities grew each day.
the theologians of the church say that celibacy is not intrinsic to the priesthood. the priesthood of Christ is not about celibacy; it is about service (to put it simply) liturgically and pastorally. it's the ministry that defines the priesthood, not his state of celibate life. that's why anyone can serve, whether ordained or not, married or celibate. "kalooy sab sa pari no. inig human sa ordinasyon, moingon dayon ang mga tawo, AY SI FATHER DI NA MAKAASAWA. ingon pod tawn tong usa ka pari, "anu ba sa tingin nyo ang pagpapari, pigil lang nang pigil?"
 i am saying i don't admire priests who are faithful to their celibate life and have done their service well to their flock. i do.
it is only that with my observation and understanding of this particular issue, the Roman Catholic Church has to be more open and listen to Spirit and the signs of the times...

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The verses from the Bible need no further explanation for it already tells the turth about celibacy.


MAT 19:10  The disciples said to him, "If this is the situation between a
husband and wife, it is better not to marry."

11  Jesus replied, "Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to
whom it has been given.

12  For some are eunuchs because they were born that way; others were made
that way by men; and others have renounced marriage because of the kingdom
of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it."

1CO 7:1  Now for the matters you wrote about: It is good for a man not to
marry.

2  But since there is so much immorality, each man should have his own
wife, and each woman her own husband.

7  I wish that all men were as I am. But each man has his own gift from
God; one has this gift, another has that.

8  Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay
unmarried, as I am.

9  But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is
better to marry than to burn with passion.

25  Now about virgins: I have no command from the Lord, but I give a
judgment as one who by the Lord's mercy is trustworthy.

26  Because of the present crisis, I think that it is good for you to
remain as you are.

32  I would like you to be free from concern. An unmarried man is concerned
about the Lord's affairs--how he can please the Lord.

33  But a married man is concerned about the affairs of this world--how he
can please his wife--

34  and his interests are divided. An unmarried woman or virgin is
concerned about the Lord's affairs: Her aim is to be devoted to the Lord in
both body and spirit. But a married woman is concerned about the affairs of
this world--how she can please her husband.

35  I am saying this for your own good, not to restrict you, but that you
may live in a right way in undivided devotion to the Lord.

36  If anyone thinks he is acting improperly toward the virgin he is
engaged to, and if she is getting along in years and he feels he ought to
marry, he should do as he wants. He is not sinning. They should get
married.

37  But the man who has settled the matter in his own mind, who is under no
compulsion but has control over his own will, and who has made up his mind
not to marry the virgin--this man also does the right thing.

38  So then, he who marries the virgin does right, but he who does not
marry her does even better.

39  A woman is bound to her husband as long as he lives. But if her husband
dies, she is free to marry anyone she wishes, but he must belong to the
Lord.

40  In my judgment, she is happier if she stays as she is--and I think that
I too have the Spirit of God.

1TI 4:1  The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the
faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.

2  Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have
been seared as with a hot iron.

3  They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain
foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who
believe and who know the truth.

REV 14:4  These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for
they kept themselves pure. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were
purchased from among men and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb.

     

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Lorenzo

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I  agree with you glacier that Roman Catholic church must be open minded at this time and that the truth will not  be hide not like in the early centuries AD. Being  a married pastor does not lessen his ability for  faithful service to God.

In defense of the Holy Mother the Church, the church does not need to defend or proove its case as it has been canon law in its position in priestly celibacy.

The arguments against it, will remain abound. If you are protestant, your will have, naturally, different theological assumptions and stance as to the Holy Living Roman Catholic Church.

Do not touch what is not within your grasp. If you are not Catholic, don't involve yourself in matters that do not concern you.

Preach and read scripture. Live in Christ. That should be sufficient for you.

In His Name,

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Lorenzo

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The verses from the Bible need no further explanation for it already tells the turth about celibacy.


MAT 19:10  The disciples said to him, "If this is the situation between a
husband and wife, it is better not to marry."

11  Jesus replied, "Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to
whom it has been given.

12  For some are eunuchs because they were born that way; others were made
that way by men; and others have renounced marriage because of the kingdom
of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it."

1CO 7:1  Now for the matters you wrote about: It is good for a man not to
marry.

2  But since there is so much immorality, each man should have his own
wife, and each woman her own husband.

7  I wish that all men were as I am. But each man has his own gift from
God; one has this gift, another has that.

8  Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay
unmarried, as I am.

9  But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is
better to marry than to burn with passion.

25  Now about virgins: I have no command from the Lord, but I give a
judgment as one who by the Lord's mercy is trustworthy.

26  Because of the present crisis, I think that it is good for you to
remain as you are.

32  I would like you to be free from concern. An unmarried man is concerned
about the Lord's affairs--how he can please the Lord.

33  But a married man is concerned about the affairs of this world--how he
can please his wife--

34  and his interests are divided. An unmarried woman or virgin is
concerned about the Lord's affairs: Her aim is to be devoted to the Lord in
both body and spirit. But a married woman is concerned about the affairs of
this world--how she can please her husband.

35  I am saying this for your own good, not to restrict you, but that you
may live in a right way in undivided devotion to the Lord.

36  If anyone thinks he is acting improperly toward the virgin he is
engaged to, and if she is getting along in years and he feels he ought to
marry, he should do as he wants. He is not sinning. They should get
married.

37  But the man who has settled the matter in his own mind, who is under no
compulsion but has control over his own will, and who has made up his mind
not to marry the virgin--this man also does the right thing.

38  So then, he who marries the virgin does right, but he who does not
marry her does even better.

39  A woman is bound to her husband as long as he lives. But if her husband
dies, she is free to marry anyone she wishes, but he must belong to the
Lord.

40  In my judgment, she is happier if she stays as she is--and I think that
I too have the Spirit of God.

1TI 4:1  The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the
faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.

2  Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have
been seared as with a hot iron.

3  They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain
foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who
believe and who know the truth.

REV 14:4  These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for
they kept themselves pure. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were
purchased from among men and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb.

    

This was a great scriptural source, Gener. Amen, brother.

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In reply towards Glacier and Sir Daray,

The only good answer and retort I have for you is scripture itself. So I will share it with you, good sir.

1Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.

 2For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus.

 3For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:

 4That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;

 5Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God:

 6That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.

 7For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.

 8He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.

 9But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another.

 10And indeed ye do it toward all the brethren which are in all Macedonia: but we beseech you, brethren, that ye increase more and more;

 11And that ye study to be quiet, and to mind your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you.

--1 Thessalonians 4: 1-11


God Bless all of Us. Most of all, May the Love of God continue to bless and protect His Holy Living and Anointed Church.

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Lorenzo

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i make myself clear here. my argument is that does married state of priests inhibit/lessen his ability to provide faithful ministry to people. i say: No. Why from our experience with other  denominations and brethren of Eastern rites, there is no absolute proof of denying its possibility. Married ministers have served as effectively as non-married priests do. i'm not talking of doctrine here. it's reality.
futhermore, early leaders of the church (post-apostoic times), called "elders", were married, chosen from among the faithful to SERVE and LEAD. celibacy was not a prerequisite. to cite an example, in the Acts, the apostles laid their hands upon Stephen and 6 others to serve the Word but there was no imposition of such rule that they should not marry, or only single can be allowed to serve the "ecclesia". yet, the communities grew each day.
the theologians of the church say that celibacy is not intrinsic to the priesthood. the priesthood of Christ is not about celibacy; it is about service (to put it simply) liturgically and pastorally. it's the ministry that defines the priesthood, not his state of celibate life. that's why anyone can serve, whether ordained or not, married or celibate. "kalooy sab sa pari no. inig human sa ordinasyon, moingon dayon ang mga tawo, AY SI FATHER DI NA MAKAASAWA. ingon pod tawn tong usa ka pari, "anu ba sa tingin nyo ang pagpapari, pigil lang nang pigil?"
 i am saying i don't admire priests who are faithful to their celibate life and have done their service well to their flock. i do.
it is only that with my observation and understanding of this particular issue, the Roman Catholic Church has to be more open and listen to Spirit and the signs of the times...

The Church teaches in basis and according to the purity of Apostolic Tradition. Not on the fleeting feelings of the times. Not on basis of individual interpretation, nay, The Gospel warns about that.

The Holy Mother the Church is the rock, built on the foundation of Peter. Built in the name of Christ, and is the light, by the Grace of God,  the constant in these turbulent and imprudent times.



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fdaray

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Topic: Should Catholic Priests be Allowed to Get Married?  (Read 3651 views) 
ProfBills (m)   Should Catholic Priests be Allowed to Get Married?
« on: December 15, 2005, 08:18 PM » 

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Should Reverend Fathers Get Married?

In 1 Corinthians 7, Paul talks about marriage.  In that same verse, he puts it clear that if you can not be like him, it is better to get married, than to mess yourself up.

I have heard several cases, home and abroad, where Reverend fathers and sisters commit untold sins, fit enough to make any pagan vow to remain in paganism. And I have asked many a times without a cogent answer as yet. Must you be a celibate, before you can serve God?  Where did did catholics get the doctrine of mandatory celibacy, for reverend fathers, even when they are conspicuously not keeping to it?

As usual, I beg for fathomable answers please.
 
  
 
 
 
trisha   Re: Should Catholic Priests be Allowed to Get Married?
« #1 on: December 20, 2005, 08:42 AM » 

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the originator of marriage God asked his fellow creation to be fruitful and fill the earth and this can only be done when we get married and have children i mean all of Gods creation including catholic priest, there is no where in the bible that states that some people should not get married because of their responsibilities in church rather if a person should decide to stay single it is his or her choice ,so staying single because you are a priest is not biblical
 
 It is clear that celibacy is a  man made doctrine and not biblical. In Rev. 22: 18 to 19  ...if anyone add of these  things, God will add to him the plagues. Therefore we can add human doctrine to the teachings of God.

It is so clear in 1 Timothy  3:2 ." A Bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate,sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable and able to teach.

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buwadsanga

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way asawahay ang mga pari - siguro apil nis ilang silot o pagsunod sa calbaryo sa atong Ginoo.

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Religion and its teachings are areas where argument is never ending.
Since Biblical times, Saul (Apostle Pablo) was very much concerned when he learned that people are arguing whether is it necessary to follow the law that has been given to Moses or the teachings of Saul as given to him by Jesus; that the death and resurrecion of Jesus free us form the angst of sin. Saul mentioned that it is not worthy to argue and quarrel about teachings and to set aside pride for it only breeds quarrels, but wisdom is found in those who take
advice.

A hot-tempered man stirs up dissension, but a patient man calms a
quarrel.  Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on
disputable matters. Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to
mutual edification. After all, religion could not save us all.


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fdaray

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Buwad,... please your opinion on this debate or act as the moderator.

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Life is what you make.
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A Layman

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Kanang magpari ka mao ra na ug ningtabok ka sa usa ka tulay sa imong kinabuhi, a bridge towards living a celebate life. To live in celibacy is just like playing  BRIDGE game. If you don't have a good partner you better have a good hand.

Bisayan Express Pronunciation:
Celibate- (sil-ay-bate): playing with something using one's hands

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way asawahay ang mga pari - siguro apil nis ilang silot o pagsunod sa calbaryo sa atong Ginoo.

way asawa, silot, calbaryo = kinsa na may ganahan moalagad ana. wa pa gani makasugod og serbisyo...opaw nas "kasakit" ang pari..LOL..

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pwede gud  wa may magboot nila basta mogahi boot pasabot ana pwede.

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milyonaryo na si vito nakakuha ug perlas sa isla berde...

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The Church teaches in basis and according to the purity of Apostolic Tradition. Not on the fleeting feelings of the times. Not on basis of individual interpretation, nay, The Gospel warns about that.

The Holy Mother the Church is the rock, built on the foundation of Peter. Built in the name of Christ, and is the light, by the Grace of God,  the constant in these turbulent and imprudent times.



it's only a matter of right time, right place and right people lorenz. the church has been always like that...slow and reactive, not because an issue is fleeting or not, but because SHE addresses the issue with wisdom. like for example, it took time for Her to accept Heliocentric System of Copernicus and of Galileo's . likewise, when heresies came out, the Church formulated doctrines to foil them...or anathemize them. there were social injustices in Latin America, thus the idea of social justice, of Basic Ecclesial Communities is born. 1960s, need for renewal of the church and of going back to the basic/root, so the Vatican-II was called. etc. etc.
there's no telling when can the church move its way on this matter. but i believe God would not protest if law/s(like celibacy) be changed in the Church if it is, when it is time, only for the spiritual well-being and service of His people. the Church is called "to serve, not to be served." that is Wisdom.

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Lorenzo

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it's only a matter of right time, right place and right people lorenz. the church has been always like that...slow and reactive, not because an issue is fleeting or not, but because SHE addresses the issue with wisdom. like for example, it took time for Her to accept Heliocentric System of Copernicus and of Galileo's . likewise, when heresies came out, the Church formulated doctrines to foil them...or anathemize them. there were social injustices in Latin America, thus the idea of social justice, of Basic Ecclesial Communities is born. 1960s, need for renewal of the church and of going back to the basic/root, so the Vatican-II was called. etc. etc.
there's no telling when can the church move its way on this matter. but i believe God would not protest if law/s(like celibacy) be changed in the Church if it is, when it is time, only for the spiritual well-being and service of His people. the Church is called "to serve, not to be served." that is Wisdom.

The Holy Mother The Church is a large body, and the reason why the ordainment of priests required celibacy was because the 1139 by the Second Lateran Council specifically ordered it so. Prior to the Second Lateran Council, priests who were married and had children were passing church money to their relatives and families, and thus were limiting the church funds. That is why the Second Lateran Council was called, and it remained ever since.

It has remained so for almost an entire millenia and I doubt it changing.

Then again, no one can predict for certainty. Perhaps, or maybe not. Only History will decide.

Until then, I have faith in whatever decision the Holy The Mother Church decides.

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"Then again, no one can predict for certainty. Perhaps, or maybe not. Only History will decide.

Until then, I have faith in whatever decision the Holy The Mother Church decides."

Yes! Because Ecclesia Semper Reformanda...

 let's always have faith and never be afraid of renewal if we believe the Spirit lives in US, the Church.

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Abi ninjo noh? di nalang nato hisgutan ang reliheyon diri kay lain lain man ta ug tinuohan. Magsumbangi na laman ta diri imbis mag ngisi2x ta inig EB mag esnabanay na kay naay gidebatehan...

Di man sad na angayan debatehan kay di man ta kinahanglan but-an sa atong gituohan. Bisan unsaon ninyo ug post pwerteng taasa sa injung post wa may mo tuo ana kundi ikaw ra kay di man ta pwede maka dani ni bisan kinsa, it is only God will. Kon tawgon na mo ni Lord mao na na.

O laban mo ana?

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A Layman

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Hala jod MsDaBins, awata jod na sila!!! We know they are just expressing their own side using their own points of view. So there's the seemingly never ending argument debatable since time immemorial and we still expect this argument to be carried further 'till the next generations to come. Only time will tell the truth with certainty when we all pass away from this earth. For now, we have to accept the fact there are three sides of an argumentation, one is the positive side, the other is the negative side, and the side which is often disregarded is the right side not the left. Now, question which side do you side? Hmmmm....

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lindy

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manga upaw na lang mog lantugi ana, dili gyud mo magdaug.

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hahaha! tinuod ka linds! mga huso pa ang ngipon di gyud ma sulbad ni!

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Hala jod MsDaBins, awata jod na sila!!! We know they are just expressing their own side using their own points of view. So there's the seemingly never ending argument debatable since time immemorial and we still expect this argument to be carried further 'till the next generations to come. Only time will tell the truth with certainty when we all pass away from this earth. For now, we have to accept the fact there are three sides of an argumentation, one is the positive side, the other is the negative side, and the side which is often disregarded is the right side not the left. Now, question which side do you side? Hmmmm....

BED SIDE KO...lol

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A Layman

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Oi lami sab nang imong choice no Glace...duha na ta. Labi nag ang akong dog si Karolina Kurkova! Asus, ginoong dagko ug gagmay...tabang!

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Lorenzo

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The Apostolic Exhortation, "Pastores Dabo Vobis," reaffirmed the traditional foundation of priestly celibacy  in the nuptial union of Christ with the Church: as the priest is ordained to offer sacrifice in persona Christi,  so he acts in the Person of the second Adam vis-à-vis the second Eve, the Church.  This vindication of the tradition which discovers the foundation of celibacy in the priestly offering of the Eucharistic sacrifice  must itself be the basis for any further clarification of the nature of such celibacy.

At the same time, the Apostolic Exhortation raises questions whose difficulty is enhanced by the very clarity of its statement of the tradition concerning the priesthood. Here, we will examine further some of the many implications of the Eucharistic foundation of clerical celibacy and continence;  particularly, we will be concerned with those which arise out of the traditional interrelation of the radical liturgical authority of the priest to offer the One Sacrifice in persona Christi, with an obligation to continence which would appear to be liturgically inherent in that offering: i.e., demanded by the symbolism of the Mass. For if we would ask why in fact priests, and generally, all those who serve the altar in proximity to the mystery of the One Sacrifice, should eschew marriage, it can only be the liturgical tradition itself that holds the answers we seek, for here everything in the Church has its source and its principle of explanation.

It is a commonplace objection, one made, ironically enough, by Protestant scholars, that priestly celibacy involves some derogation from the high dignity of marriage. But of course it is the Catholic liturgical tradition which, against the Reform, has insisted in season and out upon the sacramentality of marriage, upon its irrevocability, and upon its symbolic efficacy in the undergirding of all civilized life. One may not seriously contend that the apostolic tradition which honors celibacy and continence, whether of virgins, of widows and widowers, or of the clergy, is in tension or conflict with that equally ancient and yet more foundational — because Eucharistic — tradition which celebrates the One Flesh of the second Adam and the second Eve, the New Covenant instituted by the One Sacrifice of Christ.

Yet it is at this point that the two traditions intersect to form the concrete paradox whose explanation is sought: it is precisely of those who offer the One Sacrifice that continence is required, and it is required, as the Pope has reminded us, precisely because of that high priestly responsibility.

The task of discovering the inner intelligibility of the strict association of celibacy and continence with priestly orders is made yet the more difficult by the fact, which Pope John Paul II was careful to point out in this Exhortation, of the exceptions to the obligation of celibacy for major clerics (bishops, priests, deacons) which are now in place, whether by indult or by law. Clearly, given the fact of such exceptions, and the yet further fact of an apostolic tradition of clerical celibacy and continence for the higher clergy — firmly established by the recent and exhaustive research of Fr. Christian Cochini and Fr. Roman Cholij as solidly as historical facts are capable of being established,  it is clear on the one hand, that in clerical celibacy and continence we have to do with something more than a mere disciplinary velleity urging such celibacy for merely practical reasons;  on the other hand, we are dealing with something less absolute than an unconditioned obligation pertaining to the recipient of orders simply as such.

Celibacy cannot be said to be essential to the priesthood in the strict sense of being indispensable — for it has been and is being dispensed, and "Pastores Dabo Vobis," following Paul VI's "Sacerdotalis Caelibatus,"  contemplates that it will continue to be dispensed in special circumstances — yet the continual conciliar and Papal emphasis upon the nonnegotiability of priestly celibacy would seem to assign it an importance and significance far more vital to the Church than comports with its being merely a dimension of the clerical and ecclesial bene esse. The nearly bimillennial preoccupation of the Fathers, the Councils and the Popes is too insistent and too persistent for such a relativization of that commitment.

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There converge upon this liturgical purity a number of themes: perhaps the most insistent is taken from First Corinthians where, in a discussion of the mutual rights of husband and wife, Paul counsels his readers:

      Do not refuse one another except perhaps by agreement for a season, that you may devote yourselves to prayer; but then come together again, lest Satan tempt you through lack of self-control. I say this by way of concession, not of command. I wish that all were as I myself am. (I Cor 7:5-7)

There can be little doubt of Paul's conviction of the close relationship between prayer as such and a purity that is understood as abstention from conjugal intercourse. The entire seventh chapter of I Corinthians is redolent of this theme. Paul, with the patristic tradition relying upon him, sees this abstention to be the necessary condition for the freedom and simplicity which alone can attain the intimacy with God at once befitting and demanded of the priest by reason of his continual intercession, in persona Christi, for his flock. The patristic meditation upon I Corinthians 7 consequently linked success in prayer, particularly in the intercessory prayer of the priest, to "purity;" the Latin is pudicitia, which translates also as chastity: in the case at hand, it is a chastity which would be violated by the use of marriage.  Cochini has pointed out that this liturgical "purity," in its application to those who serve at the altar, is the only Old Testament liturgical "cleanliness" of which the apostolic tradition has retained an analogue; all the other demands made by the Old Law concerning the means for attaining liturgical purity — bathing, for example — were simply dropped. One hears much nowadays in deprecation of priestly celibacy as largely rooted in the obsolete law requiring ritual cleanliness in the Levitical priest when offering sacrifice;  such analyses leave unaccountable the dismissal of such uncleanliness as the Old Testament held to be caused, e.g., by any physical contact with a cadaver.

Further, Cochini has shown that this Old Testament requirement of temporary continence for Levites was subsumed, in the patristic tradition, to a hermeneutic derived from the figura-veritas relation of the Old Testament to the New.  De Lubac has shown this relation to be normative for the patristic hermeneutic.  The relation is historical: it is given concretely in the Eucharistic transcendence of the many sacrifices of the Old Law. This is to say that the patristic hermeneutic is inescapably a Eucharistic hermeneutic, whose ground is the liturgical consciousness of the free Eucharistic integration of the Old Covenant, the New Covenant, and the Kingdom of God into the history of our salvation in Christ. Consequently the patristic interpretation of such scriptural passages as I Cor 7:5-7 cannot but refer back to and in fact be simultaneous with the traditio which is the Church's central act of worship, the offering in the person of Christ of the Eucharistic sacrifice, whose original celebration was apostolic.

Thus the ritual cleanliness, the continence, required for the exercise of the Levitical priesthood was understood by the Fathers to be simply a foreshadowing of the full reality of the liturgical purity as it is fulfilled in Christ, the High Priest of the New and more perfect Covenant, and which is immediately implicit in those who are ordained to offer his One Sacrifice, because from the beginning they have been authorized to offer it, and have done so, only in his person, and by his authority.  As the service of sacrificial intercession by the Levitical priesthood at the altar of the sacrifices of the Old Law was temporary, so also was the continence required of the Levite; as the Catholic priest offers continually the One Sacrifice of the one High Priest in persona Christi, so also is a continual continence required of his Eucharistic sacrificial intercession. This is not a mere speculative conclusion nor mere conformity to law: it is an integrating element of the self-awareness of the priest in the full realization of his orders, in the identification with the Christ that is explicit and effective in the words of consecration: "This is my Body," "This is my Blood."

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Lorenzo

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PRIESTLY CONTINENCE IS TO BE UNDERSTOOD AS THE SPIRITUALITY OF THE PRIESTHOOD,
THE RES TANTUM SACRAMENTI OF ORDERS


Celibacy and continence are normative for the spirituality of the priesthood; this is the clear message of "Pastores Dabo Vobis," and of the ancient liturgical practice of the Roman Church upon which that papal teaching rests. Yet celibacy is not essential to the priesthood, as is proven by the possibility of its papal dispensation.

Further, even granted that, apart from a dispensation from laicization and a celibacy, the priesthood is a "diriment impediment" to marriage, it cannot easily be established that the marriage of an unlaicized and undispensed priest who has abdicated his priestly office is a sacramental nullity: with that abdication, his original sacramental capacity to marry may revive: the question is beyond the range of this study. Nonetheless, the purported marriage of a priest who is engaged in the active exercise of his orders is regarded as a canonical nullity: from the viewpoint of the canon law, such a priest may "attempt" marriage, but cannot in fact marry, and this fact is dealt with as a simple sacramental incapacity, incapable of any papal dispensation.

Thus in the practice of the Church, the actual exercise of major orders is an indispensable diriment impediment to marriage, an impediment, that is, arising out of the natural law: arising out of the factual sacramental incapacity of a bishop, priest or deacon engaged in the exercise of his orders. The purported marriage of such a person, as "attempted" only, is not a valid sacramental sign, and so cannot effect the sacramental bond. Simply put, such a priest is incapable of actual entry into the sacramentum tantum of marriage.

However, even after all that has been said, it is not easy to state with precision the relation of celibacy and continence to the priesthood: although Cochini has shown that these requirements are clearly more than disciplinary, celibacy is yet dispensable; granted that celibacy is somehow intrinsic to the priesthood, demanded by it, even pertaining to its spiritual integrity, nonetheless celibacy is not indispensable to the priesthood. In short, while the intrinsic interrelation of celibacy and continence with priestly orders is an objective fact, it is not a fact which can be accounted for in the terms of intrinsically necessary reasons which we too easily associate with intrinsic intelligibility.

If the question of their relation is to be answered, we first must transcend that latent rationalism, for the factual requirement of celibacy and continence as inherent the priesthood is a free requirement; one freely assumes celibacy before ordination, and one freely accepts the obligation of celibacy and continence thereafter.

This ecclesial confrontation with the symbols of slavery, and their vanquishing by the truth of Christ, is achieved primarily in marriage. Therefore the teaching and preaching of the dignity and meaning of marriage is so important a priestly duty, for it is this effective nuptial symbolism alone which guards the free society from all the civil temptations to tyranny, and guards the Catholic people from succumbing to the temptation continually set before them by modernity to abdicate their personal dignity in favor of the faceless irresponsibility that is paganism, whether old or new.

http://www.renewamerica.us/columns/abbott/061118

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"Then again, no one can predict for certainty. Perhaps, or maybe not. Only History will decide.

Until then, I have faith in whatever decision the Holy The Mother Church decides."

Yes! Because Ecclesia Semper Reformanda...

 let's always have faith and never be afraid of renewal if we believe the Spirit lives in US, the Church.

Absolutely. Through Christ, Our Lord.

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Oi lami sab nang imong choice no Glace...duha na ta. Labi nag ang akong dog si Karolina Kurkova! Asus, ginoong dagko ug gagmay...tabang!

brad pitt lang akoa...whahahahahhaha

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A Layman

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Dong Enzo, sa akong pagsabot sa imong side morag ni pabor ka nga pwede magminyo ang pari kon gusto niya. Basta, during the seasons of prayer, he has to devote himself to prayers. Then assumes his family obligation after. Sukwahi kini sa proverbial saying nga, "You cannot serve two masters at a time...". Tinood nga dili jod ni mahimo sa mga pari bisan kanatong tanan. Pero kon atong i-modify kana with a positive thinking ug himoong, "You can serve two masters one at a time..." pwede. It's just a matter of tasking, diba? I can clip you the quotes of this particular argument in your previous posting should you like to expound further.

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fdaray

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GIVE COMMENTS OF THESE TWO VERSIONS.

Nuns and priests are Catholic, not Christians. The Catholic church does not allow its priests to marry. Supposedly this is because the Catholic church believes that Peter, allegedly the first "priest" did not marry. But the Bible makes at least two references to Peter's wife. See 1 Corinthians 9:5 (which uses Peter's Greek name "Cephas") and Matthew 8:14 (which references Peter's mother in-law).

Christian pastors can marry and, in fact, are encouraged to marry, so they can teach the congregation on issues related to marriage and parenting. Something Catholic priests can't really do a good job at having no first hand experience in these matters.



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Dong Enzo, sa akong pagsabot sa imong side morag ni pabor ka nga pwede magminyo ang pari kon gusto niya. Basta, during the seasons of prayer, he has to devote himself to prayers. Then assumes his family obligation after. Sukwahi kini sa proverbial saying nga, "You cannot serve two masters at a time...". Tinood nga dili jod ni mahimo sa mga pari bisan kanatong tanan. Pero kon atong i-modify kana with a positive thinking ug himoong, "You can serve two masters one at a time..." pwede. It's just a matter of tasking, diba? I can clip you the quotes of this particular argument in your previous posting should you like to expound further.

Sir Layman,

Ang stance nako ani is with the Holy Roman Catholic Church and in communion with the 2nd Lateran Council edict of the 12th century.

I am conservative in this aspect, sir. The Great Reformation in the 16th and 17th centuries addressed the grievances of the Church, and what was clear in ecclesiastic rite was the continuation of the celibacy of the Royal Priesthood.

So, since it was the Holy Roman Catholic Church who compiled the Holy Bible, and with infallible authority to compile the Holy Book itself, by the Grace of God, then I assure my stance with that of the Catholic Church.


Yours,

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GIVE COMMENTS OF THESE TWO VERSIONS.

Nuns and priests are Catholic, not Christians. The Catholic church does not allow its priests to marry. Supposedly this is because the Catholic church believes that Peter, allegedly the first "priest" did not marry. But the Bible makes at least two references to Peter's wife. See 1 Corinthians 9:5 (which uses Peter's Greek name "Cephas") and Matthew 8:14 (which references Peter's mother in-law).

Christian pastors can marry and, in fact, are encouraged to marry, so they can teach the congregation on issues related to marriage and parenting. Something Catholic priests can't really do a good job at having no first hand experience in these matters.



Mr. Daray,

Catholics are Christian. The word 'Christian' in the Greek root "Kristos" means 'Christ', the 'annointed one'. Jesus The Christ.

The old greek word Kristosin/ Kristosan means 'Christian'.

Later on when Christianity spread to Rome, the word 'Krostisin' was changed to the latin Christo/ Cristo. And the religion was regarded as 'Cristianum, or Christosanum'.

In Spanish it is regarded as 'Cristiano, Cristianisimo'. In english, it is simplified as 'CHRISTIAN'

What does that mean? To be Christian?

Simple ra ni.

Christian is a follower of Christ A BELIEVER of Christ.

Roman Catholics are believers of CHRIST. Anyone can be catholic. Catholic in Latin means "UNIVERSAL" or "ALL". In sacred scripture and in christian historiagraphy, the references of the Old Church Fathers and the 'Church' was the same Catholic Church.

The Catholic Church is THE First Christian Church.

From the Catholic Church, all christian denominations would come about. Either it be conservative orthodoxy, to anglican, to more simple lutheran, episcopalian to modern simplified baptist, methodist, 7th day adventist etc.

Catholic IS Christian. Christian IS Catholic.

The 7 sacraments of the ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH preach of Christ. Baptized in Christ, Purified in Christ, read the word of Christ, adore the body and blood of Christ. Adoration of Christ's sufferings on the cross, his birth, his resurrection.


I just had to correct that misinterpretation. As I think it is dangerous to differentiate it.

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"a one christian is not a christian."  ;D

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"a one christian is not a christian."  ;D

unswa, glace?  ;D

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unswa, glace?  ;D

what do you think of that, graze? hehehe. (it;s not for personal attack...haha)

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if he said yes to HIM, he should not say yes to others.

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 Catholic Church does not represent Christian Faith?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It is often said by Christian scholars that the Catholic church does not represent the christian faith or the bible. Can someone tell me why this is the case?


 
I found this:

"Since we are searching for the historical Jesus, I notice that on this site and in many peoples opinions, there is a strong misunderstanding about Catholicism/christianity. The church which Jesus claims He was going to build (Spiritually in Matt. 16:18-21) began at Pentacost around 33a.d.. This church thrived and grew by the day. The church's which had been planted continued to grow as the Apostle taught them. However the Roman Empire began to see christianity first as a harmless jewish cult and then as a possible enemy that needed to be dealt with. A series of persecutions began which also resulted in the deaths of Peter and Paul the apostles and eventually all the Apostles were dead except John who was banished to the island of Patmos where he wrote the book of Revelation. Jesus had already stated in advance in 33a.d. that John would live on to do a special work for Him (John 21:22-here Jesus says He will come back to deal with John which was fulfilled when Jesus gave to John the book of Revelation). Eventually all the Apostles died and the early church fathers continued on. Rome continued to persecute the true christian church which included the horrible death of being fed to the lions in the roman coliseum. The persecution of the church failed however because christians were so strong in their belief that Roman citizens saw that they were willing to die for their faith and many would become converted. The Roman Empire under Constantine eventually decided to legalize christianity in 450a.d. and even make it the state church. However, getting Roman Pagans to go along with this was not easy. Constantine was adamant to make this work because he was convinced he had seen a sign in the sky which was a cross saying "under this sign conquer". The Roman Empire decided to merge its religious pagan idol system with christianity and join them into one church. The Roman Catholic Church. The traditon of celebrating Tammuz 25 of dec birthday was now given to Jesus who was never born on dec 25th. All the pagan idols were eventually given the names of catholic saints. The church grew to enormous proportions and when the political Empire of Rome began its decline, the church became even stronger. During this time, there were remnants and pockets of true christians who resisted this great compromise. This time period is known as the Dark Ages where the catholic church stifled science by saying the earth was flat even though scientists and the Old Testament clearly stated it was circular (Isaiah 40:22 written around 700b.c). The Catholic church began to take all bibles and keep them from the people not wanting them to read the bible. Therefore this merger of paganism and christianity continues to this day. The Protestant Reformation however broke the chains of Rome and lead to a resurgence of the true gospel which is salvation by grace through faith plus nothing. This is where we stand today. Therefore as far as the inquisition, crusades , etc, these were not christians who did this, it was lead by the Roman Catholic church. I even heard one person on this site say Hitler was a christian. He was not a christian, he was a pagan member of the Thule Society which was an occult group who believed in Pan-Germanic paganism which is where the aryan thing came from as well as from theosophy which is a complicated occult system made up of hinduism/buddhism/kabbalah mixed with science and evolution. Hitler did idolize the Catholic church especially the way the Jesuits were set up and he used them as a model for his dreaded SS. It is possible to be saved in the Catholic church but there obstacles because the catholic church teaches many things one must do to be saved which conflicts with what the bible says in Ephesians 2:8-9."

Source link.

"The bible is sufficient to establish that the RCC does not represent the Bible. Incidently, I grew up in the Catholic church and went to catholic school. I have been baptized, confirmed, etc. I know a little something about the RCC. I have been to the vatican many times with my family which is an Italian family. I can assure you that catholicism is not nor has it ever been bible based. I mean no offense to catholics. My points deal with catholic teachings and tradition not to catholics who love Jesus etc. But the cathoic church teaches works are necessary for salvation and this goes against the bible. The bible says anyone who adds to the gospel is to be accursed. This warning applies to the catholic church because it adds works to a gospel which the bible teaches is freely given and must be freely received. The bottom line is Martin Luther was correct.

Also, in Matthew 16 Jesus handed the keys of the Kingdom over to His church. This church began at pentecost. Not in 311ad.

I know that some catholics would disagree. I know this because I was once one. I went to catholic school for 8 years. I was never given a bible. This is common practice in catholicism. In catholic mass, there is no bible used, just quotations and bits and pieces to make sure that the conflicts between catholicism and christianity are never found out. Many priests like Martin Luther who read their bibles realized these conflicts and were forced to make the decision to leave the catholic church. Bottom line, catholicm became legal in Rome in 311 ad while christianity began in 33 ad. After this fact, what else is there really to debate?"



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there are plenty of us here who claim we are christians and boast of thier knowledge on christianity. but its a sad story to say, they are only christians on their belief but not on their deeds!

God forbid to all hypocrites!   :-\

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 The Roman Catholic "Church" is Not Christian
       Practically all precepts of the Roman Catholic religion contradict the Bible repeatedly. It is the largest cult in the world and most preachers will not openly say so because it is so large. For Catholics who read this, please remember this: the person that tells you the truth is the one that cares.

For a glimpse of the atrocities committed by the Roman Catholic religion, do a net search on the Inquisition or the Crusades. During the Inquisition, the Catholic religion killed millions. Why? Primarily to suppress any and all opposition to the pope. Side "benefits" included taking the material wealth of its victims and showing the pope's power. The Catholic Inquisitors tortured, crippled, burned, and imprisoned millions of people. Whatever happened to love your enemies? (Matthew 5:44)

Before we get to specific problems with Catholic doctrine, let's review how this bloodthirsty organization treated a man who simply wanted to get the Bible into the hands of the common people. In the late 1300s John Wycliffe translated the scriptures from the Latin Vulgate. Some 40 odd years after his death, the Catholic religion dug up his bones and burned them calling him an arch-heretick. In the 1500's William Tyndale sought to translate the Bible into the language of the common people, English. He could not gain approval from the Catholic religion so he worked as an outlaw on the run in Europe, translating the Bible. He was eventually captured, condemned and executed in 1536. It is because of people like these men, Tyndale and Wycliffe, that we have the scriptures today. If the Catholic religion had its way, we'd still be in ignorance about the Bible and enslaved to the pope. Time fails me here to tell of other martyrs like John Hus, John Rogers, etc. who were killed by popish persons.

I'll list the catholic tradition first and then what the Bible has to say about the matter.

 

* * * *

CATHOLIC TRADITION - Call priests father, e.g., Father McKinley.

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS -

Matthew 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

* * * *

CATHOLIC TRADITION - Forbidding the priesthood to marry.

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS -

1) It is devilish to forbid God's people to marry when He has given marriage to be received with thanksgiving.

1 Timothy
4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
4:3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

2) Peter was married (remember the pope is supposedly continuing the apostolic line through Peter).

Matthew
8:14 And when Jesus was come into Peter's house, he saw his wife's mother laid, and sick of a fever.

Mark
1:30 But Simon's wife's mother lay sick of a fever, and anon they tell him of her.

Luke
4:38 And he arose out of the synagogue, and entered into Simon's house. And Simon's wife's mother was taken with a great fever; and they besought him for her.

3) Paul, a great apostle, remained single; however he made it very clear that he could marry if he wanted to.

1 Corinthians
9:5 Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and as the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas?

* * * *

CATHOLIC TRADITION - Mary never had other children after the Lord Jesus. A perpetual virgin.

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS - Mary and Joseph indeed had children. They were the Lord's half brothers and sisters for their father was Joseph and mother was Mary.

Matthew
13:55 Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?
13:56 And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things?

Mark
6:3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.

* * * *

CATHOLIC TRADITION - Mary is the queen of heaven.

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS - Worshipping the queen of heaven (which is not the Mary of the Bible) is worshipping another god and it provokes the Lord to anger.

Jeremiah
7:17 Seest thou not what they do in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem?
7:18 The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.
7:19 Do they provoke me to anger? saith the LORD: do they not provoke themselves to the confusion of their own faces?
 

* * * *

CATHOLIC TRADITION - Mary is the mother of God.

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS - Mary is the mother of the earthly Jesus, not God. Jesus pre- existed from everlasting as God (see John 1:1). When He came to redeem mankind, He laid aside His glory and was made like unto sinful man so that He could take our punishment (Hebrew 2:9). God has no mother. He has lived from everlasting which means He had no beginning.

Isaiah
43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. [If Mary gave birth to God, she'd be God.]

Psalm
93:2 Thy throne is established of old: thou art from everlasting.

Micah
5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler [Jesus] in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

Philippians
2:6 Who [Jesus], being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

* * * *

CATHOLIC TRADITION - Pope called Holy Father.

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS - The term Holy Father is only found one time in the entire Bible. It was when Jesus prayed before He and His disciples went to the garden of Gethsemane. He referred to God the Father as Holy Father. It is blasphemy to call a man by God's name

John
17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

* * * *

CATHOLIC TRADITION - Purgatory, nuns, popes.

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS - None of these is mentioned in the Bible. It is a sin to add to the Bible.

Proverbs
30:6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

The pope is a man who takes upon himself honor which belongs to no human being. Even the very name by which he allows himself to be called (Holy Father) is highly presumptuous and blasphemous (see above).

One does not need the pope to determine what God's will is. The Bible says that God has given the Holy Ghost to each believer and that He (the Holy Ghost) guides and leads us into all truth. All a believer needs is the Bible and the Holy Ghost to know the will of the Lord. Popery has been treacherous, but worse, each pope has been the blind leading the blind. Jesus said that both will fall into the ditch. Catholics, come out of this system that cannot save and know Jesus for youself, intimate and up-close.

NOTE: Purgatory is supposedly a place where a person is purified of sins--even popes supposedly go there. The Bible says that Jesus Christ is the one that purifies us of our sins. Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus.... When a person dies their eternal home is sealed--heaven or hell--no in between. Hebrews 9:27 ...it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment.

* * * *

CATHOLIC TRADITION - Venerating/worshipping images. Pope bows to statues of Mary, people worship the eucharist and have statues/candles in their homes and churches.

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS - It is idolatry to venerate images. We are not even supposed to make them.

Exodus
20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God...

* * * *

CATHOLIC TRADITION - The mass. Through transubstantiation, the wafer/host and the wine supposedly become the actual blood and body of Jesus Christ when the priest prays over them.

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS - Jesus died once for sins, never to be repeated. He sits on the right hand of God and does not reappear in the mass as a mass of blood and flesh.

Hebrews
10:12 But this man [Jesus], after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
10:13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
10:15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

John
19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

1 Corinthians
11:24 And when he [Jesus] had given thanks, he brake it [bread], and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
11:25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
11:26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come (not for the forgiveness of sins or to receive Jesus).

* * * *

CATHOLIC TRADITION - Saved, in part, by good works.

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS - Good works are the fruits that grow out of being saved. They do not make you saved. An apple does not make its tree an apple tree, it was already an apple tree before any apples appeared. When you see the apples; however, you know what kind of tree it is. If a person is saved, he will shew forth good works because he has the spirit of Christ in him. The good works don't make him saved only the blood of Jesus can do that.

I John
1:7b ...the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Acts 16:31b
...believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.

Romans
3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

What about James 2:20 "faith without works is dead"?

The kind of faith that saves is a faith that shows forth the works of God. Even devils believe in Jesus and tremble (James 2:19). Many people believe in Jesus but they won't follow Him. They have a faith, but not the kind that saves. If a person has true faith in Jesus, the Holy Ghost dwells in him and will cause good works will show forth in his life. The good works confirm the faith by which the person was saved. James 2:21-23 uses Abraham as an example. Abraham believed God so when God asked him to sacrifice his son Isaac, Abraham, out of his faith in God, offered up Isaac.

 

* * * *

CATHOLIC TRADITION - The church is founded on Peter.

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS - Jesus Christ is the foundation of the church. Peter was a man like you and me. Jesus called Peter Satan in Matthew 16:23 when Peter rebuked Jesus dying. When Cornelius tried to worship Peter, Peter responded, "Stand up; I myself also am a man." (Acts 10:26). The pope needs to remember Acts 10:26 when he has men bowing to him and kissing his hand like he is worthy of worship.

1 Corinthians
3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Matthew
21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected [Jesus], the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

* * * *

CATHOLIC TRADITION - Confessing sins to a priest. Petitioning saints and Mary.

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS - We are to confess our sins and needs to God alone.

I John
1:9 If we confess our sins, he [God] is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Matthew
6:9, 12 After this manner...pray ye: Our Father... forgive us....

1 Timothy
2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus [not Mary, not saints, not priests, not the pope];

I John 2:1, ...And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

* * * *

There are many other scriptures that could have been used here to testify against the doctrines of the catholic religion. There are also many other doctrines of the catholic religion which could have been refuted (e.g. the sacraments, receiving the Holy Ghost, salvation through the catholic religion, penance, rosary, etc.).

* * * *

The Catholic religion has a history of taking the money of poor widows in order to say masses for the dead (which do no good) and collecting the material possessions of nuns. In Italy, the heart of Roman Catholicism, there is an often used saying that goes, "Without money, they don't sing the mass." That is really pitiful on several fronts: (1) mass is blasphemous and people who trust in it are hell-bound (2) there's no such thing as purgatory and (3) the gift of God is without price.

Roman Catholicism today is probably the wealthiest government in the world. It owns a good share of America's hospitals and has healthy real estate interests. The bottom line is, if you want to get right with God, you have to go through His Son, Jesus Christ, not some religious organization. Prayerfully.

SOURCE


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how come you got the discussion this far when it's only the fact of Catholic priest's unmarried state is at issue here? please stick to the topic. before we'll end up throwing mouth-full of discord against each other. should one like to discuss this issue, make another topic.


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fdaray

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It is within this topic. This  is my answer to Brod Lorenzo on page 11.

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i know. but i suggest one makes a separate topic of this issue because i don't see why these points should be dealt here

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where naman si dong lorenzo nahirapan sagutin si fdaray. fight fdaray dili kaya ni sa dojo ni lorenzo.

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Lorenzo

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Mr. Daray,

We must practice discernment when in discussing this topic. To simply debase the Church and utilize a citation from an Evangelical site which is antagonistic to the RCC is unfair.

Again, we must practice discernment.

All these examples of of charges that you posted, have been addressed already in the Great Reformation of the 16th century, and yet again in following papal addresses, and the 2nd Vatican Council.

This notion of Sola Scriptural is not something that the RCC holds true. As Scripture and Tradition is mandated.

Let us stick to the topic, I could also infer the RCC's notion on anathema of some heretical church groups in this day of age. But again, that is left to man's free will.



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fdaray

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Lorenzo, sorry if I have posted  something unpleasing to the  Catholics.

This is still a broad issue to resolve. LEt us leave the viewers to answer
based on the teachings of the Bible. The truth will always prevail.

Let us open our minds based on Scriptural teaching, not on manmade
doctrines.


May God bless us for seeking the truth.

                       

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Lorenzo

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This notion of priesthood is for me, not something one should consider just for the sake of considering or testing.

This is so very beautiful, you know, the Sacrament of Priesthood. The calling of the priesthood. Ive had met many who are now seminarians in their youth, because they were called.

Young men of my age, even younger, called already. Do you all understand the beauty and unparalleled magnamity of such a calling? I attended a Collegiate Catholic Conference 2 years ago at Ganon University in Erie, Pennsylvania. For just. To entertain the calling of priesthood.

Tell you the truth, I once thought I had a calling for it. In my 2nd year of college. I cannot explain the feeling, all i know is that i was in my catholic chaplain's office pouring my eyes out because of the feeling. Its like the hairs of your back being raised. Its scary and at the same time, very eye-opening. So i attended the conference, as my pastor recommended, to make sure it was genuine or not.

When I attended, i met a good friend, who was then a 1st year in collegiate seminary. Can you imagine, a boy by the age of 18, already in the seminary? I asked him, "how do you know it was the calling? when did you receive it?"

His response was, "always have had it since i was boy."

It really is scary you know, for me, looking at it in hindsight. To be called, or think to you were called? By the Holy Spirit to a sheppard of the flock. I thank the Lord i made the right decision.

Surely, I am not worthy to have been a priest. Like all of you, am a wretched sinner.

The priesthood is truly, the ultimate sacrifice.

A man not only gives his body, but his soul to Christ. Soley to Christ.

The priesthood is incomparable. And it is a sacred position. Not meant for those who are not fully discerned to its calling.

'

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To the original poster,

For those who are in the contra in the preservation of Priestly celibacy, why and what is your objective and your resolution? Is it for merely to debate? Or are you actually young men who are truly considering the Royal Priesthood, yet at the same time entertain the notion of marriage, and physical fatherhood?

It is debasing and unequivocally provocative to infer a course of action, when one isn't totally pledged to fulfill the oaths of that respective calling.

If it is so, that the debater merely debates for the sake of debating to see the others point of view, then one's reasons and resolution is moot and obliterated. It is unsubstantiated.

God established the CHURCH. WIthin the church we have : 1) Priest and 2) Laypeople.

The supreme role of Priesthood is to preach, to discern, to guide the flock. To follow scriptural mandates and APOSTOLIC Tradition. The layman, in his or her own indivdual style is to hold true to the teachings and apply it in faith and actions.

God does not count laymanship any less than priesthood; as both positions have different roles. One helps the other in making the right choice, to discern, and sheppard the other away from heretical notions that are under the influence of the Demonic enemy. MAY GOD REBUKE him!



Truly.

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buwadsanga

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dong lor, buhat ug laing topic para ma resolve ang issue ninjo ni fdaray bahin sa catholics are not christians..... tiaw mo ani dong? sugot ka?

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Lorenzo

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In the light of good debate and exchange of opinions regarding this topic, I will abstain from further dialogue concerning the Roman Catholic Church and other church's views on the RCC.

I believe that the animosity of all Christian Churches between each other is a work of the devil, who will inspire and incite negative comments on one another, the believers and followers of Christ Our Lord.

So, it is best for us to merely understand their point of view. And pray for them.
Many churches, though different in teaching as the RCC have basic truths that are in line with what the RCC has proclaimed since the rising of the Lord and following days of Pentecost.

Lets work on the common ground, rather than on the differences that divide. Let us not entertain negative notions of one another, again, such notions are demonic in nature. The devil works always to try to ambivilate the faithful.

MAY THE LORD GOD REBUKE him! I humbly pray.

Archangel Michael, Prince of the Heavenly Hosts,
Defend us, children the of the Most High, and His Church.
From the snares and futility of the devil.

Amen.

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LIFES CHALLENGES ARE DESIGNED NOT TO BREAK US
      BUT TO BEND US TOWARD GOD.
      in every desert of trial
     GOD has an oasis of comfort. 
+JLY   Ellen Poquita Racela

fdaray

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Bad Godesberg,.... please open on page 3 to 7 on this topic. You can read more views and opinions.

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there are plenty of us here who claim we are christians and boast of thier knowledge on christianity. but its a sad story to say, they are only christians on their belief but not on their deeds!

God forbid to all hypocrites!   :-\

bull's eye na sad ka bay.

as if attacking the Catholic faith is a Christian deed.

Gimbuhaton ba sa usa ka kristiyano ang pagtamay ug pagbiay biay sa iyang igsoun nga kristiyano?

Just asking!

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:-)

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huwat lang ta nga ma-Santo Papa na tong akong Lolo kay uyon to siya maminyo ang pari. hehe.

daghang mga fora nga nagbutang aning topika. unsa gyud kaha ang tumong aning maong pangutana? gawas sa tumong pagmugna og pagkigkukabildo, natumong na man ang uban hinoon sa pagbutangbutang ug pagtamay sa ubang mga tawo.

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Re: Should Roman Catholic Priest Allowed To GEt Married? (Please Help for debate)
« Reply #94 on: September 25, 2009, 11:02:38 PM »
ok lang mamenyo ang pari basta sa babae lang mamenyo!

Toeeenk !!!

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gwargz

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Re: Should Roman Catholic Priest Allowed To GEt Married? (Please Help for debate
« Reply #95 on: September 25, 2009, 11:08:08 PM »
Married Priest?

Lisora.
Ma-imagine nako nga busy na si Padre ug homily
tapos naay 4 anyos, gadagan, gahilak paingon sa altar,
sigeg singgit, "Daddy, daddy, giaway ko sa sakristan.

Unsa may buhaton sa pari?
Break muna lugar? Kugoson ang bata ug ihatod sa kumbento,
then balik na pod siya para ipadayon ang misa?

Naunsa na ni. Hehehehe.

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Re: Should Roman Catholic Priest Allowed To GEt Married? (Please Help for debate)
« Reply #96 on: September 25, 2009, 11:13:10 PM »
Married Priest?

Lisora.
Ma-imagine nako nga busy na si Padre ug homily
tapos naay 4 anyos, gadagan, gahilak paingon sa altar,
sigeg singgit, "Daddy, daddy, giaway ko sa sakristan.

Unsa may buhaton sa pari?
Break muna lugar? Kugoson ang bata ug ihatod sa kumbento,
then balik na pod siya para ipadayon ang misa?

Naunsa na ni. Hehehehe.

grwagz, ikaw man juy nakapuyo og kombento ug nakauban-uban og pari; nasayod pod ko nga naa pod kay kasayoran sa tinood nga kahimtang sa KINABUHI ni pader, unsa may imong ikatubag aning isyuha: uyon ka nga magminyo sila o dili? (kanang imong tinood nga pamalandong aning dapita.)

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gwargz

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Re: Should Roman Catholic Priest Allowed To GEt Married? (Please Help for debate
« Reply #97 on: September 25, 2009, 11:46:29 PM »
Married Priest?

Dili pwede Glac.

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Re: Should Roman Catholic Priest Allowed To GEt Married? (Please Help for debate)
« Reply #98 on: September 25, 2009, 11:49:49 PM »
Married Priest?

Dili pwede Glac.

pwede motampo kas ubang nimong maalamong pagpasabot aning bahina, gwargz? kung nganong dili pwede?

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Re: Should Roman Catholic Priest Allowed To GEt Married? (Please Help for debate)
« Reply #99 on: September 26, 2009, 12:03:43 AM »
My response:

Nope. If you want to get married, be a deacon or a eucharistic minister :)

There are 2 holy lives:

1. Life of a Priest of Christ or Brother of Christ or Sister of Christ
    1a. Life of a Deacon (religious orders that are allowed to marry)

2. Life of a Layman and Laywomen. Can marry, which the sacrament of marriage between layman and laywoman is the quintessential example of Holy Life, a manifest of God's Love, and the fruit of their Love---> Children.

:)


Sacrament of Priestly Orders are for those who are Called and ANSWER the Call by THE MOST HIGH.

It is not for everyone. :)

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