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Lorenzo

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Re: The belief on one true religion
« Reply #60 on: January 15, 2009, 12:07:43 PM »
Sometimes, however, in our pursuits to discuss with others and to learn from others--there will always be others who take offense to our position on things. No matter what it may be. So for me, as much as I respect others points of views, when in dealing with such a subject, I will answer it according to my views as asked from others. Giving a dilute answer to appease a set of people at the expense of the reality of my views is, for me, not being true to others.


In this life, we all come into conflict with people, either we mean to do it or just simply because they don't agree with us. For me, that is and will always be inevitable.

We all will have different views on the matter, despite the clashes here and there, we should always remain civil and respectful of others views, even if they are different from ours. But in no way should we mitigate our own views to suite and appease them.

In my opinion, that is betraying your own self. Your own identity.

Even if I disagree with a person, if that person is able to carry a proper dialogue and proper refutes, I begin to admire that person. Not because he is in the opposition, but because of one's resiliency, and their own defense. In fact, one of my closest friends was in the opposing side of a Political Science Debate in my 2nd year class in college. He was assigned by my professor to defend the Israeli Border Wall, and I, was assigned to the opposition. We debated before the class vehemently, lasting for over 4 hours (not including break times). And though our debate was rather frictional, I developed a lasting friendship with Robert. And he was my best friend.

I will always remember him because of his intellect, his ability to defend himself, and his refutes.

To me, that demonstrates character, it demonstrates ability, and most of all, it demonstrates eloquence.

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ayessa

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Re: The belief on one true religion
« Reply #61 on: January 15, 2009, 04:16:44 PM »
The sense of God makes every believer hope on a better future, justice and equality.  Where the concept of justice and equality are hardly achieved in this seemingly unfair and unjust world,  the belief of a God gives every person a sense of meaning and purpose.

The concept of a religion which is a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs, defines societies.

More than the tangible evidence of the human color, a person is basically identified by his religion.  Some sociologists even claim that religion is even more powerful than gender.  Ones concept of morality and values are formed and honed by religion and as what we know, our morals and values defines who we are as persons.

I remember my Philosophy professor  saying that morality is universal among all other religion but the understanding of which maybe different. 
The etymological meaning of morality comes  from L.L. moralitatem (nom. moralitas) "manner, character," from L. moralis.  Simply said, morality is an institutionalized manner , conduct or character.   A lot of people refute that they have their own morality indepedent of social morals defined by any religion or any institution for that matter, but then and again, we must also remember that morality is a societal concept.  Whether atheist or pagans, their concept of morality did not sprout out anywhere, it is formed and influenced by institutions within the society.


Where there is no free agency, there can be no morality. Where there is no temptation, there can be little claim to virtue. Where the routine is rigorously proscribed by law, the law, and not the man, must have the credit of the conduct." - William H. Prescott, "History of the Conquest of Peru," 1847



ayessa

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Re: The belief on one true religion
« Reply #62 on: January 15, 2009, 07:13:41 PM »
It is when we impose our religious ideals and beliefs on others that leads to unreasonably conflict and unworthy discourse. 

We remember how the framework of religion is reflective of our personality, our ego.
If our religion is being at stake and attacked, our ego is attacked too.
That is why I find it necessary to discuss religion in this thread not on religious basis but on sociological perspective, on how societies evolved because of religion.

Because, the discussion on claim of  one and true religion would never end. Like what I said before, religion is a matter of believing without seeking proofs.  Because no religion in this world has categorically ( by science and by solid evidence) proven the existence of their God. It is a matter of believing, it is a matter of faith.

There is God of course. He has different names, worshipped by different people of different color, traditions and beliefs.


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Re: The belief on one true religion
« Reply #63 on: January 15, 2009, 11:03:38 PM »
Would you believe that a strong, united, and shall we say peaceful society is founded by a strong religious belief among its contituents, and not based on morality? Or, is religious belief a coincidence with morality?
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ayessa

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Re: The belief on one true religion
« Reply #64 on: January 16, 2009, 12:59:51 AM »
Morals are formed because of careful observance of acceptable traits or social attitude in a society and this is institutionlized in any free agency, be it religion, education, traditions, customs, practices and beliefs.  Religion may be only one of the institutionalizing agencies of morality,but it reserves the most legitimate authority, most especially in the Philippines.

Theoretically, not.  A strong and peaceful society may not be founded by religious  beliefs.  A strong and peaceful society is built by people who knows how to respect other religion and its beliefs.


ms da binsi

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Re: The belief on one true religion
« Reply #65 on: January 16, 2009, 02:39:28 AM »
re: A strong and peaceful society may not be founded by religious  beliefs.  A strong and peaceful society is built by people who knows how to respect other religion and its beliefs.


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ms da binsi

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Re: The belief on one true religion
« Reply #66 on: January 16, 2009, 02:40:11 AM »
echo:

re: A strong and peaceful society may not be founded by religious  beliefs.  A strong and peaceful society is built by people who knows how to respect other religion and its beliefs.

KOREK!!!

Lorenzo

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Re: The belief on one true religion
« Reply #67 on: January 16, 2009, 03:04:51 AM »

A strong, united, and peaceful society is an idealistic concept.

The closest one can have in having such a utopia-esque society is living in a secular society. Complete separation between church and state; with implementation of rules and regulations that forbids one religious order/sect from over-stepping another or influencing policy. It relies on the basis of the individual within the said society to hold sensitive and respectful views on each person. Inhibition of personal biases and prejudices.

It relies on the supremacy of the state, and the infallibility of Human Law.


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Re: The belief on one true religion
« Reply #68 on: January 16, 2009, 03:23:47 AM »
A strong, united and peaceful society is not a concept alone but a vision.
There is no political leader who envisioned a weak, defragmented and chaotic society..

A concept of a strong , united and peaceful society is not a utopian concept.  It can be achieved.
Equality is a utopian concept, remember.

Lorenzo

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Re: The belief on one true religion
« Reply #69 on: January 16, 2009, 03:31:26 AM »
It is a utopian concept.

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Re: The belief on one true religion
« Reply #70 on: January 16, 2009, 03:35:44 AM »
if it is a utopian concept why do states and political leaders envision a stong, united and peaceful society?


are political leaders hallucinating too?

Lorenzo

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Re: The belief on one true religion
« Reply #71 on: January 16, 2009, 03:43:09 AM »
Of course not.

They aim and target the ideal concept. A utopoiac concept.

Simple.



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Re: The belief on one true religion
« Reply #72 on: January 16, 2009, 03:44:00 AM »
If we refrain from believing the concept of peace? where would our world go?
If we stop envisioning a strong and united society, how do we extend our hands to our separatists brothers and sisters in Mindanao?

It is sad to hear it from you.

Lorenzo

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Re: The belief on one true religion
« Reply #73 on: January 16, 2009, 03:50:15 AM »
When did I say that I was against a utopiac concept? Not once.

I merely stated that the the idea of purely peaceful society, united society, is an idealistic one.

An idea; that helps and guides governments to making the right decisions. Yes, I agree with your last statment that the concept of equality is a utopiac concept. Are there cases of racism and prejudice in our societies (Germany and the US etc )? of course there are, but the purist idea of a Equal society helps us, members of the society, and those that are in the political helm, try to maneuver and make laws that allow --as much as possible--to the realization of that purist utopiac concept.


A utopiac concept is what guides us, its what helps us correct our mistakes; fix our wrongs and see what can be better augmented.

I apologize if you took my position in the wrong way.

Perhaps I didn't explain my position completely.



Lorenzo,

Lorenzo

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Re: The belief on one true religion
« Reply #74 on: January 16, 2009, 04:00:40 AM »
The situation in the south can only be solved when government and the people are able to live and coexist. It's only in a secular society that such coexistance can occur. There must be respect from each side, even if one has personal and religious differences--the rule of Law and the infallbility of the Human Law must be upheld in order to safeguard the unalienable rights of the citizens of the Philippines. And allow the realization of the Filipino to live in a peaceful, and fairly accepting, united land.

Only through the guidance of a government that holds no such bias and prejudice can such a peace happen.

And I am hopeful that it will be realized.



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Re: The belief on one true religion
« Reply #75 on: January 16, 2009, 04:01:03 AM »
Lorenzo, for all you know, a utopian concept is an unachievable concept.  Political leaders would not use utopian concept as a vision. Generally,political leaders are more pragmatic and realistic.

You are a history buff right? It can also be viewed that there are both dark ages and times of peace in human history.


If you submit to the ideals of N. Michiavelle, then you have a different understanding of peace.
Peace is interpreted in different means.  In the united nations, the new name for peace is development. If we constrain ourselves only to the present reality, then we cannot visualize a sustainable peace.
If you have a conservative understanding of peace, then it is utopian concept. If you have a liberal and sociological perspective of peace, then it is possible.


There were segments of the human history where peace and unity were achieved.

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Re: The belief on one true religion
« Reply #76 on: January 16, 2009, 04:17:22 AM »

One has to be both idealistic and realistic, less we fall into the gloom of complete nihilism.

Many of the revolutionary changes in human history were based on utopiac concept of equality, egalitarianism, fraternity, and liberty. The great European Enlightenment thinkers such as Voltaire (who famously chimed in, "I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend your right to say it to the death."), Francis Bacon, John Locke, Jefferson, Rousseau were influential in the awakening of colonies.

Why, the birth of the United States was by all means a response by the American people against British taxation without representation. The revolution against Britain was influenced by Locke's work and emphasis of the people's right to remove a government whose actions were contraindicative to the demands and the will of the people. As well as the safeguarding of the sanctity of the unalienable right to peace, prosperity, equality.

Why even the French Revolution of the late 18th century, was in effect a processes of the French people acting on the ideas of utopianism--based on the concept of Equality, Egalitarianism, Fraternity. The deposition of French absolute monarchy and the aristocracy for a republican democracy--with ideals that resound the works of the great Enlightenment Thinkers.

Why even our own Jose P. Rizal, made reference to the Great Enlightenment. His vision of LA FILIPINAS, though symbolic of the virgin Pre-Hispanic Philippines was on all counts and purposes a Utopiac vision. Where Filipinos would have the right to rule themselves--the right to acquire property, the right to speak their minds, their right to defend themselves before a court of law.

One can dare say, Roy, that indeed, utopianistic concepts , by all counts purposes, shape the classical epoch, the victorian epoch and which holds influence to the present--thereby establishing or established precedent.

Governments should always retain a sense of utopiac idealism at the same time realistic logicalism.

Else fall into the morose of political and social nihilism.



Lorenzo

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Re: The belief on one true religion
« Reply #77 on: January 16, 2009, 04:19:14 AM »

It would be accurate to say that I am a student of History. There are so much more that I have yet to learn.

Sure, im quite sure that one can argue that there are and were indeed times of peace in human history. Depending on the epoch one is referring to.


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Re: The belief on one true religion
« Reply #78 on: January 16, 2009, 04:39:12 AM »
Ergo, Lorenzo, one cannot outrightly claim that the concept of unity and peace are utopian concepts.  They are indeed ideal concepts which are hard to achieve because of current realities.  Nihilism is a denial of reality, and in this context, present realities are but carefully considered.

Even philosopers do have a hard time debating whether or not peace is a utopian concept.  Kants perpetual peace is of course a utopian concept. But peace, sustained by society through cross-cultural understanding is achievable.  Less that you have submitted that peace in Mindanao could be achieved through open communication.

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Re: The belief on one true religion
« Reply #79 on: January 16, 2009, 04:40:30 AM »
If one has an abolute and conservative definition of peace, meaning to say, a total absence of conflict, then it is utopian concept.



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