Author Topic: The belief on one true religion  (Read 10735 times)

TOPAC

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Re: The belief on one true religion
« Reply #40 on: January 15, 2009, 08:40:46 AM »
sad to say mdb and ayessa, murag wala na sa tb ng ecunemism, religious tolerance and respect.

at least kabalo na ta run.

let's work on that guys!

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:-)

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leoello

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Re: The belief on one true religion
« Reply #41 on: January 15, 2009, 09:12:24 AM »
Religious intolerance may be purely religious, but can be a "cover story" for an underlying political or cultural motive.


very true.  To me, we can never separate religion and politics, because religion is how man (at the expense of woman often) organized society's spiritual needs.

On the other hand, it's the foundation that has built my loving family, our unity was symbolized by our nightly prayers of the novena.

i am raised an ardent Catholic and still practice, but do not support the foreign policies our Religious Right in the US has stood behind.  Maybe it is the backlash of fundamentalist violence, but patriotism, nationalism, (sometimes xenaphobia) and Christianity are extremely tied together in towns across the US.

In mass we always pray our fallen soldiers but I can't stop thinking of the millions of civilians that are often left out of our minds and the media. Does that make me less Christian?

For some of you that's been closer to the autonomous Muslim region in Mindanao, how was the relationship during Spanish rule? Did violence heightened after the US took over? or stayed the same?






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Re: The belief on one true religion
« Reply #42 on: January 15, 2009, 09:14:25 AM »
one true and cosmic religion is LOVE.

kinsay magpa bunjag? hehehe!

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Lorenzo

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Re: The belief on one true religion
« Reply #43 on: January 15, 2009, 09:25:37 AM »
Leo,

When the United States initiated the Philippine-American War, the United States' military engaged the Filipino Revolutionary Army and within a year, the Philippines' First Republican Army was annihilated, forcing the military to engage in guerilla tactics. By 1901, most of the Filipino Revolutionary Army had surrendered to American forces.

The United States, however, had problems in supressing the Moro Uprising even after the declaration of peace between the Philippines and the United States' by the surrender of President Emilio Aguinaldo.

It is important for us to understand that there are two Philippines, in regard. The one I'm talking about is the Philippines involving Manila, Illocos, The Visayas and northern Mindanao, the provinces that signed the accord with the Malolos Republic and was under the Imperial Bureaucracy of Spain--Christian Philippines. The other is the deep south--Muslim Philippines.

The United States went inside Jolo and parts of Moroland in order to suppress and eradicate the slavery that was practiced in the region, as most of Muslim Mindanao even resisted the cultural assimilation that the Spanish had imposed over the entire archipelago. The Moro Wars, or as what the United States labels them in its military history is regarded by military historians and strategists as the "Taming of the Moros".

In fact it was the United States, that was able to tame the Moros and force their compliance after over 10 years of bloody conflict. Even the Spanish Empire, even after almost half a millenia in reigning over the Philippines, was unable to completely subdue the Moro.

The United States Military developed the revolver pistol as a way to augment and to properly fight the bolo-carrying and gruesome guerilla warriors of the Moro.

Over 4,000 Americans were killed in the war with the Filipino Revolutionary Army; over 20,000 American soldiers were wounded.

But in the war against the Moros--double that amount was sustained.



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Lorenzo

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Re: The belief on one true religion
« Reply #44 on: January 15, 2009, 09:33:35 AM »


For some of you that's been closer to the autonomous Muslim region in Mindanao, how was the relationship during Spanish rule? Did violence heightened after the US took over? or stayed the same?






The policy of Spain in regard to its colonies was "Pax Hispanicana con relacciones de Madre Espana"

It was a cultural and economic policy. The Spanish Empire facilitated cultural assimilation and amalgamation with the Philippines--infusing its European-Hispanic culture into the "Filipino" (note that even the term "filipino" is a Spanish term--it once referred to a Spaniard born in the Philippines; only to be later used to describe anyone born in the Philippines--or specifically a Malay of the Philippines).

Spain's policy in empire building was continual growth--peripheral growth. Meaning, building on what was already conquered since the time of the beginning of the Imperial Epoch per se the World that was established by Philip the Great.

In regards to Muslim Mindanao, the Spaniards did their best in Christianizing most of Northern Mindanao as well as even southern Mindanao. They augmented this process by sending Christian Visayans to work in the haciendas and encomiendas that was established in Surigao del Sur, in Zamboanga and surrounding regions. A success, in terms of Christianization, when concerning the fact that all of Mindanao was the base of Islamic spread in the Philippines during pre-Magellanic/ pre-Legaspic epochs.

The military force that Spain stationed in Mindanao was mainly to protect the peace and the Christian lands. Muslim Mindanao had its own sovereignty, despite 400 years of cultural wars.

The United States was far more militant in Muslim Mindanao in comparison to Spain. The United States utilized military tactics and hit the heart of the the Muslim Philippines. Sulu and Jolo. Conquered the region through diasporic military adventures. Compared to Spain's cultural and economic means of conquest.


Lorenzo,

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Re: The belief on one true religion
« Reply #45 on: January 15, 2009, 09:51:05 AM »
Additionally, Leo,

One has to understand that when the Spanish arrived in the Philippines, its effect on the archipelago was overall--growth. And evolution. An evolution from a bronze aged culture relying in small unorganized villages--to the development of European-styled communities.

The development of barangays (a Spanish invention; identical to the Pueblo unit), the municipalidad, the cuidad, the provincia, the region, and the colonia. Establishment of encomiendas, haciendas, puertas, mercados etc. led to the revolutionary growth of the entire archipelago. This led to growth of culture, easier communication and information sharing, expedited religious orders and conversions into the Christian faith, development of jurisprudencias (Spanish-Roman Law) that was foreign to the Philippines prior to post Magellanic/ post Legaspic epochs.

From 1565, the population of the archipelago was at 500-600k as documented by missionary priests. By the mid 19th century, the Philippines, a Royal Spanish Colony, had hit a population mark of over 5 million. And by the end of the 19th century, when the PHilippines declared independence from Spain, the Philippine Archipelago had a population of an unprecedented 8 million.

This unprecedented population boom is a direct effect of Spanish Imperialism and Spanish Organization and Spanish Trade to the archipelago.

When the United States entered the Philippines and declared war with the 1st Philippine Republic in Malolos, over 1-2 million FIlipinos died in that conflict.
A massive population genocide, even the situation in Iraq pales in comparison to the damage that the Philippines suffered in terms of cultural loss, demographic change.
Though, the United States' presence in the Philippines did lead to positive gains, one cannot mitigate the fact that over 1 million to 2 million Filipinos were killed in the conflict. Out of a population of 8 million. That is equivalent to 38.5 Million Americans being killed in a war (out of the 305 million in the US population).



Lorenzo,

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leoello

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Re: The belief on one true religion
« Reply #46 on: January 15, 2009, 09:57:06 AM »
Lorenzo,

Thank you for that great & concise historical summary.  So on one hand, we had Christianization through culture and economy; on the other, Americanization by military force and the .45 caliber pistol.

It's interesting to see the viewpoints of US policy, "Taming of the Moro" people to the "Protracted War"  that a lot of our Leftist Filipino American lit reports.

Would you say the American military effort in Mindanao was also an extension to secure "Manifest Destiny" ? Otherwise, if they really advocated the conquering of the Moro lands based on practicing slavery, that's very hard to believe with what 1900s Jim-Crow US looked like.


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Re: The belief on one true religion
« Reply #47 on: January 15, 2009, 10:02:07 AM »
Yes. I am aware of that genocide, unfortunately, even that is left out of our US History textbooks.  You know I didn't even learn about the Philippine-American war until college in my own readings??  There are so many parallels with Iraq-US and Philippine-US.

Have you read "The Forbidden Book" by Helen Toribio? It connects US racism/Indian genocide to US colonization and imperialism in our homeland.  All of the Filipinos drawn in our political editorial 19th century cartoons were "Blackenized" to denigrate us as uncivilized people together with Africans Americans at the same time.



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Lorenzo

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Re: The belief on one true religion
« Reply #48 on: January 15, 2009, 10:13:41 AM »
Leo,

I would have to submit to the fact that the United States definitely went inside Muslim Mindanao to uphold the American notion of 'Manifest Destiny'. The very same notion that led to the American mastery of the present 48 mainland states.

During the late 19th century, there was a rather intense discourse within the United States congress in regards to Empire and growth. Though there were a great many Americans that sided with McKinley in the acquisition of the Philippines, there were, however, a great many American politicians who were isolationists that demanded that the United States accept the Filipino right to sovereignty and self determination. One has to understand that the vote to acquire the Philippines from Spain was by less than 20 votes.

When the United States conquered the Philippines, it did so by military might. The United States conquered the Philippines not by cultural assmilation, as had the Spaniards some 400 years prior, but by the point of a gun.

What I do find rather entertaining is that the anti-Imperialists arguments in not taking the Philippines was for rather racist reasons. They feared that acquiring the Philippines would lead to the migration of 'Asiatics' into the United States. Most of the unedecuated American referred to the Filipino at the time as a , "Brown Nigger". Which is rather correlative to your mention of the Jim Crow Laws.

One can even feel lucky that the United States Administration under Roosevelt, though was 'Imperialistic', wasn't as suppressive as the laws made into effect against the African Americans at the time.

If you look at the policies that the American Administration under Taft put in place in the Philippines--is nothing but a direct mirror of what the Spaniards had in place in the PHilippines some 20 some years earlier.

The only difference is that the United States enforced an anti-Spanish rhetoric in the Philippines.

The Yellow journalism seen in the Philippines by American journalists is completely biased. They reported that the Philippines and the Filipino was illterate. Hard to believe when most if not all the Filipinos were fluent in their own dialect as well as the Lingua Franca of the day, Spanish. Every Filipino either knew how to read, and write in Spanish.

And I cannot help but laugh at McKinley's reference in needing to 'Christianize' the Philippines. It is ludicrous considering that by the end of the 19th century, over 95% of the entire Philippines was Roman Catholic. Christian.

Yes, Leo, you can say that American policy in the Philippines--was definitely a form of 'Manifest Destiny'.

Or as what Twain would eventually write as, "The White Man's Burden."



Lorenzo,

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Re: The belief on one true religion
« Reply #49 on: January 15, 2009, 10:19:05 AM »
Yes. I am aware of that genocide, unfortunately, even that is left out of our US History textbooks.  You know I didn't even learn about the Philippine-American war until college in my own readings??  There are so many parallels with Iraq-US and Philippine-US.

Have you read "The Forbidden Book" by Helen Toribio? It connects US racism/Indian genocide to US colonization and imperialism in our homeland.  All of the Filipinos drawn in our political editorial 19th century cartoons were "Blackenized" to denigrate us as uncivilized people together with Africans Americans at the same time.




I took AP US History in high school and we barely even touched the topic of the Philippine-American War. Or as our teacher referred it as the Philippine "Insurrection". Let's say that--that led to a heated debate, lol.


Indeed, Leo, i was so fascinated in Spanish Philippines that I studied that as one of my majors in college. Imperial Spanish Colonialism.

Agreed, that there are so many parallels between Philippine and Iraqi Wars. I feel so vindicated to hear this from another Filipino.

I did read that work by Toribio, albeit a commentary on it only. It is truly disgusting how the United States portrayed our people in its Yellow Journalism. In my opinion, the United States was far more racial to the Filipino than the Spaniard.

At least the Spaniards didn't send indian hunters to butcher and kill Filipino children; as what the US cavalry did to the citizens in Samar.





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Re: The belief on one true religion
« Reply #50 on: January 15, 2009, 10:28:04 AM »
Also, one thing I noticed which I would like to inquire from you, Leo, is that after the United States arrived in the Philippines--so did the growth of Protestantism. Did you know that? Growth of Baptists, Lutherans, Seventh Day Adventists, Evangelical Born Agains, and even Mormonism, etc.

Did you notice that?

Compared to the homogeneity of Roman Catholicism by the Spaniards?
A cultural-religious discourse. Since Americans are mostly Protestant compared to Catholic Spain.


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Re: The belief on one true religion
« Reply #51 on: January 15, 2009, 10:29:07 AM »

What I do find rather entertaining is that the anti-Imperialists arguments in not taking the Philippines was for rather racist reasons. They feared that acquiring the Philippines would lead to the migration of 'Asiatics' into the United States. Most of the unedecuated American referred to the Filipino at the time as a , "Brown Nigger". Which is rather correlative to your mention of the Jim Crow Laws.

I really forgot that angle.  It would be interesting seeing an Anti-War coalition today complete with peace activist and ardent White Supremacist and Minute Men!

So knowing your history obviously, I have to push back and factor in the racist/anti-immigrant logic for your past article.  Wouldn't ardent isolationist and anti-immigrant/nativists/conservative Christians be the first to reject a hypothetical Philippines' application for US statehood?

We can move this over to that topic...


(question answered) you have a knack at conjuring pretty detailed essays in 5min!



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Re: The belief on one true religion
« Reply #52 on: January 15, 2009, 10:39:35 AM »
Ah yes, I think so, most probably.

LoL, it is a pleasure to find another Historian in this forum.

Leo, I really am pleasured to meet you acquaintance!








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Re: The belief on one true religion
« Reply #53 on: January 15, 2009, 10:40:06 AM »
Yes. LOVE, the greatest messagee of the true religion or any religion.
...God so love the world....,    Salam ....... whcih mean peace for Islam.

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Lorenzo

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Re: The belief on one true religion
« Reply #54 on: January 15, 2009, 10:41:03 AM »


(question answered) you have a knack at conjuring pretty detailed essays in 5min!



haha, this is what I love, bro. History.
It's a side passion of mine.

Where are you based at in the 'states, btw?

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Re: The belief on one true religion
« Reply #55 on: January 15, 2009, 10:43:12 AM »
Also, one thing I noticed which I would like to inquire from you, Leo, is that after the United States arrived in the Philippines--so did the growth of Protestantism. Did you know that? Growth of Baptists, Lutherans, Seventh Day Adventists, Evangelical Born Agains, and even Mormonism, etc.

Did you notice that?

Compared to the homogeneity of Roman Catholicism by the Spaniards?
A cultural-religious discourse. Since Americans are mostly Protestant compared to Catholic Spain.


fantastic observation.  that topic im sure has been thesis-worthy: to look at the Americanization of Philippines through religion through the Protestant missionary work in contrast to Spain.  I wonder if the same missionary work promoted a more aggressive form of Capitalism, that history still exists today as (cheesy) it is my star football quarterback from Univ of Florida proudly flaunts his missionary work to our homeland!

I knew that the indigenous development of the Iglesia Ni Cristo was connected to Manalo's experiences in America.   What's your take on that development, I see it as an importance for Filipinos to claim a Christian faith as our own, but its not without critiques of their practice.

I'd like to ask everyone's experience with INC in the Philippines?   Or if you are Iglesia, what is your take on its acceptance and relationships with other faiths? As a Catholic, I was really shocked at their approach in trying to recruit me by denouncing what I've practiced all my life.

Ka lisod ni religion ka sabot! pls correct my grammar someone...

I value their principles of forming a relationship directly to God, but not at the expense of demonizing the Catholic faith.

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Lorenzo

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Re: The belief on one true religion
« Reply #56 on: January 15, 2009, 10:54:25 AM »
Eloquently written, Leo,

You brought up a very strong point--the missionaries in the Philippines by different Christian denominations. I know for a fact that there are many Baptist missionary works in Manila--which is rather interesting in how much these Christian denominations are vying for the same population--competing with one another in the goal to 'save souls'. (No pun intended at all). I know that even in Korea, there is a growing Mormon mission there--leading to thousands of South Koreans converting to the Mormon faith.

I really don't have much information on the INC. Perhaps someone else in Tubag Bohol with a far more deeper knowledge on that can answer your question. I myself would also like to know.

I sympathize for you, Leo, if what they tried to do to you was an affront to your Catholic upbringing.




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Re: The belief on one true religion
« Reply #57 on: January 15, 2009, 11:07:11 AM »
Lorenzo----im based out of south mississippi, but soon going back to my hometown in jacksonville, florida.....you?

I'm really longing to go to Bohol and Northern Mindanao to connect with family.  Na mingaw ko!

If you're a history lover, there's a few of us in blogworld.  Some places to start would be these places:

http://filamfunk.blogspot.com,  my friend who talks Filipino colonization through a hiphop cultural performance lens

and myself:

http://poplockpoetry.wordpress.com, a place where i'm going to unpack some personal history being Filipino in America, activism, breakdancing, and some poetry.

if you have a blog, please post it! 

back to the Religion topic....I broke up with my first girlfriend because she was INC and I was Catholic, sayang.

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Re: The belief on one true religion
« Reply #58 on: January 15, 2009, 11:31:53 AM »
I remember a book on etiquette that proscribed three topics in any social gathering: politics, sex and religion.

I believe a virtual gathering such as we have here at TB is no different, unless everyone agrees to disagree, and disagrees graciously.

As a topic, religion is especially hard to navigate, unless I am asked to speak of it from a personal point of view without prejudice to those who believe otherwise.

I remind myself that my spiritual conviction should broaden my heart and my mind rather than constrict it, give me a better understanding not only of myself but most importantly of others (especially those who believe otherwise), encourage me to seek common grounds rather than drive me adrift to islands of intolerance, and build me up as a person without demolishing others.

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Re: The belief on one true religion
« Reply #59 on: January 15, 2009, 11:54:24 AM »
and build me up as a person without demolishing others.

Well said.

And to be sure, I do not mean to prejudice anyone, restrict conversation on this board or intend to have made someone uncomfortable, they are all just personal observations to understand our world, with the intent to bring us closer as human beings.

in the end, i believe the universal God-given value of love.

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Re: The belief on one true religion
« Reply #60 on: January 15, 2009, 12:07:43 PM »
Sometimes, however, in our pursuits to discuss with others and to learn from others--there will always be others who take offense to our position on things. No matter what it may be. So for me, as much as I respect others points of views, when in dealing with such a subject, I will answer it according to my views as asked from others. Giving a dilute answer to appease a set of people at the expense of the reality of my views is, for me, not being true to others.


In this life, we all come into conflict with people, either we mean to do it or just simply because they don't agree with us. For me, that is and will always be inevitable.

We all will have different views on the matter, despite the clashes here and there, we should always remain civil and respectful of others views, even if they are different from ours. But in no way should we mitigate our own views to suite and appease them.

In my opinion, that is betraying your own self. Your own identity.

Even if I disagree with a person, if that person is able to carry a proper dialogue and proper refutes, I begin to admire that person. Not because he is in the opposition, but because of one's resiliency, and their own defense. In fact, one of my closest friends was in the opposing side of a Political Science Debate in my 2nd year class in college. He was assigned by my professor to defend the Israeli Border Wall, and I, was assigned to the opposition. We debated before the class vehemently, lasting for over 4 hours (not including break times). And though our debate was rather frictional, I developed a lasting friendship with Robert. And he was my best friend.

I will always remember him because of his intellect, his ability to defend himself, and his refutes.

To me, that demonstrates character, it demonstrates ability, and most of all, it demonstrates eloquence.



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ayessa

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Re: The belief on one true religion
« Reply #61 on: January 15, 2009, 04:16:44 PM »
The sense of God makes every believer hope on a better future, justice and equality.  Where the concept of justice and equality are hardly achieved in this seemingly unfair and unjust world,  the belief of a God gives every person a sense of meaning and purpose.

The concept of a religion which is a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs, defines societies.

More than the tangible evidence of the human color, a person is basically identified by his religion.  Some sociologists even claim that religion is even more powerful than gender.  Ones concept of morality and values are formed and honed by religion and as what we know, our morals and values defines who we are as persons.

I remember my Philosophy professor  saying that morality is universal among all other religion but the understanding of which maybe different. 
The etymological meaning of morality comes  from L.L. moralitatem (nom. moralitas) "manner, character," from L. moralis.  Simply said, morality is an institutionalized manner , conduct or character.   A lot of people refute that they have their own morality indepedent of social morals defined by any religion or any institution for that matter, but then and again, we must also remember that morality is a societal concept.  Whether atheist or pagans, their concept of morality did not sprout out anywhere, it is formed and influenced by institutions within the society.


Where there is no free agency, there can be no morality. Where there is no temptation, there can be little claim to virtue. Where the routine is rigorously proscribed by law, the law, and not the man, must have the credit of the conduct." - William H. Prescott, "History of the Conquest of Peru," 1847



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ayessa

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Re: The belief on one true religion
« Reply #62 on: January 15, 2009, 07:13:41 PM »
It is when we impose our religious ideals and beliefs on others that leads to unreasonably conflict and unworthy discourse. 

We remember how the framework of religion is reflective of our personality, our ego.
If our religion is being at stake and attacked, our ego is attacked too.
That is why I find it necessary to discuss religion in this thread not on religious basis but on sociological perspective, on how societies evolved because of religion.

Because, the discussion on claim of  one and true religion would never end. Like what I said before, religion is a matter of believing without seeking proofs.  Because no religion in this world has categorically ( by science and by solid evidence) proven the existence of their God. It is a matter of believing, it is a matter of faith.

There is God of course. He has different names, worshipped by different people of different color, traditions and beliefs.



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A Layman

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Re: The belief on one true religion
« Reply #63 on: January 15, 2009, 11:03:38 PM »
Would you believe that a strong, united, and shall we say peaceful society is founded by a strong religious belief among its contituents, and not based on morality? Or, is religious belief a coincidence with morality?

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ayessa

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Re: The belief on one true religion
« Reply #64 on: January 16, 2009, 12:59:51 AM »
Morals are formed because of careful observance of acceptable traits or social attitude in a society and this is institutionlized in any free agency, be it religion, education, traditions, customs, practices and beliefs.  Religion may be only one of the institutionalizing agencies of morality,but it reserves the most legitimate authority, most especially in the Philippines.

Theoretically, not.  A strong and peaceful society may not be founded by religious  beliefs.  A strong and peaceful society is built by people who knows how to respect other religion and its beliefs.

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Re: The belief on one true religion
« Reply #65 on: January 16, 2009, 02:39:28 AM »
re: A strong and peaceful society may not be founded by religious  beliefs.  A strong and peaceful society is built by people who knows how to respect other religion and its beliefs.


KOREK!!!

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ms da binsi

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Re: The belief on one true religion
« Reply #66 on: January 16, 2009, 02:40:11 AM »
echo:

re: A strong and peaceful society may not be founded by religious  beliefs.  A strong and peaceful society is built by people who knows how to respect other religion and its beliefs.

KOREK!!!

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Re: The belief on one true religion
« Reply #67 on: January 16, 2009, 03:04:51 AM »
Would you believe that a strong, united, and shall we say peaceful society is founded by a strong religious belief among its contituents, and not based on morality? Or, is religious belief a coincidence with morality?

A strong, united, and peaceful society is an idealistic concept.

The closest one can have in having such a utopia-esque society is living in a secular society. Complete separation between church and state; with implementation of rules and regulations that forbids one religious order/sect from over-stepping another or influencing policy. It relies on the basis of the individual within the said society to hold sensitive and respectful views on each person. Inhibition of personal biases and prejudices.

It relies on the supremacy of the state, and the infallibility of Human Law.

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Re: The belief on one true religion
« Reply #68 on: January 16, 2009, 03:23:47 AM »
A strong, united and peaceful society is not a concept alone but a vision.
There is no political leader who envisioned a weak, defragmented and chaotic society..

A concept of a strong , united and peaceful society is not a utopian concept.  It can be achieved.
Equality is a utopian concept, remember.


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Re: The belief on one true religion
« Reply #69 on: January 16, 2009, 03:31:26 AM »
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ayessa

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Re: The belief on one true religion
« Reply #70 on: January 16, 2009, 03:35:44 AM »
if it is a utopian concept why do states and political leaders envision a stong, united and peaceful society?


are political leaders hallucinating too?

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Re: The belief on one true religion
« Reply #71 on: January 16, 2009, 03:43:09 AM »
Of course not.

They aim and target the ideal concept. A utopoiac concept.

Simple.



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Re: The belief on one true religion
« Reply #72 on: January 16, 2009, 03:44:00 AM »
If we refrain from believing the concept of peace? where would our world go?
If we stop envisioning a strong and united society, how do we extend our hands to our separatists brothers and sisters in Mindanao?

It is sad to hear it from you.

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Re: The belief on one true religion
« Reply #73 on: January 16, 2009, 03:50:15 AM »
When did I say that I was against a utopiac concept? Not once.

I merely stated that the the idea of purely peaceful society, united society, is an idealistic one.

An idea; that helps and guides governments to making the right decisions. Yes, I agree with your last statment that the concept of equality is a utopiac concept. Are there cases of racism and prejudice in our societies (Germany and the US etc )? of course there are, but the purist idea of a Equal society helps us, members of the society, and those that are in the political helm, try to maneuver and make laws that allow --as much as possible--to the realization of that purist utopiac concept.


A utopiac concept is what guides us, its what helps us correct our mistakes; fix our wrongs and see what can be better augmented.

I apologize if you took my position in the wrong way.

Perhaps I didn't explain my position completely.



Lorenzo,

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Re: The belief on one true religion
« Reply #74 on: January 16, 2009, 04:00:40 AM »
The situation in the south can only be solved when government and the people are able to live and coexist. It's only in a secular society that such coexistance can occur. There must be respect from each side, even if one has personal and religious differences--the rule of Law and the infallbility of the Human Law must be upheld in order to safeguard the unalienable rights of the citizens of the Philippines. And allow the realization of the Filipino to live in a peaceful, and fairly accepting, united land.

Only through the guidance of a government that holds no such bias and prejudice can such a peace happen.

And I am hopeful that it will be realized.



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ayessa

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Re: The belief on one true religion
« Reply #75 on: January 16, 2009, 04:01:03 AM »
Lorenzo, for all you know, a utopian concept is an unachievable concept.  Political leaders would not use utopian concept as a vision. Generally,political leaders are more pragmatic and realistic.

You are a history buff right? It can also be viewed that there are both dark ages and times of peace in human history.


If you submit to the ideals of N. Michiavelle, then you have a different understanding of peace.
Peace is interpreted in different means.  In the united nations, the new name for peace is development. If we constrain ourselves only to the present reality, then we cannot visualize a sustainable peace.
If you have a conservative understanding of peace, then it is utopian concept. If you have a liberal and sociological perspective of peace, then it is possible.


There were segments of the human history where peace and unity were achieved.

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Re: The belief on one true religion
« Reply #76 on: January 16, 2009, 04:17:22 AM »
Lorenzo, for all you know, a utopian concept is an unachievable concept.  Political leaders would not use utopian concept as a vision. Generally,political leaders are more pragmatic and realistic.

You are a history buff right? It can also be viewed that there are both dark ages and times of peace in human history.


If you submit to the ideals of N. Michiavelle, then you have a different understanding of peace.
Peace is interpreted in different means.  In the united nations, the new name for peace is development. If we constrain ourselves only to the present reality, then we cannot visualize a sustainable peace.
If you have a conservative understanding of peace, then it is utopian concept. If you have a liberal and sociological perspective of peace, then it is possible.


There were segments of the human history where peace and unity were achieved.

One has to be both idealistic and realistic, less we fall into the gloom of complete nihilism.

Many of the revolutionary changes in human history were based on utopiac concept of equality, egalitarianism, fraternity, and liberty. The great European Enlightenment thinkers such as Voltaire (who famously chimed in, "I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend your right to say it to the death."), Francis Bacon, John Locke, Jefferson, Rousseau were influential in the awakening of colonies.

Why, the birth of the United States was by all means a response by the American people against British taxation without representation. The revolution against Britain was influenced by Locke's work and emphasis of the people's right to remove a government whose actions were contraindicative to the demands and the will of the people. As well as the safeguarding of the sanctity of the unalienable right to peace, prosperity, equality.

Why even the French Revolution of the late 18th century, was in effect a processes of the French people acting on the ideas of utopianism--based on the concept of Equality, Egalitarianism, Fraternity. The deposition of French absolute monarchy and the aristocracy for a republican democracy--with ideals that resound the works of the great Enlightenment Thinkers.

Why even our own Jose P. Rizal, made reference to the Great Enlightenment. His vision of LA FILIPINAS, though symbolic of the virgin Pre-Hispanic Philippines was on all counts and purposes a Utopiac vision. Where Filipinos would have the right to rule themselves--the right to acquire property, the right to speak their minds, their right to defend themselves before a court of law.

One can dare say, Roy, that indeed, utopianistic concepts , by all counts purposes, shape the classical epoch, the victorian epoch and which holds influence to the present--thereby establishing or established precedent.

Governments should always retain a sense of utopiac idealism at the same time realistic logicalism.

Else fall into the morose of political and social nihilism.




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Re: The belief on one true religion
« Reply #77 on: January 16, 2009, 04:19:14 AM »


You are a history buff right? It can also be viewed that there are both dark ages and times of peace in human history.



It would be accurate to say that I am a student of History. There are so much more that I have yet to learn.

Sure, im quite sure that one can argue that there are and were indeed times of peace in human history. Depending on the epoch one is referring to.

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ayessa

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Re: The belief on one true religion
« Reply #78 on: January 16, 2009, 04:39:12 AM »
Ergo, Lorenzo, one cannot outrightly claim that the concept of unity and peace are utopian concepts.  They are indeed ideal concepts which are hard to achieve because of current realities.  Nihilism is a denial of reality, and in this context, present realities are but carefully considered.

Even philosopers do have a hard time debating whether or not peace is a utopian concept.  Kants perpetual peace is of course a utopian concept. But peace, sustained by society through cross-cultural understanding is achievable.  Less that you have submitted that peace in Mindanao could be achieved through open communication.

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ayessa

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Re: The belief on one true religion
« Reply #79 on: January 16, 2009, 04:40:30 AM »
If one has an abolute and conservative definition of peace, meaning to say, a total absence of conflict, then it is utopian concept.

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