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Author Topic: Ara gid ba Porgatoryo?  (Read 14997 times)

BolBuhol

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Ara gid ba Porgatoryo?
« on: September 20, 2012, 12:09:50 AM »
Tabangan daw ko ninyo ani gid pag intindi gid ya, kung may ara gid ba sang bible ma kita.

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hubag bohol

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Re: Ara gid ba Porgatoryo?
« Reply #1 on: September 20, 2012, 05:51:37 AM »
Dinhi sa TB damo gid hang maalamon sang ini nga hilisgotan pero indi gid sila makaibot sang sampak nga hambal mo haw...

;D



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hubag bohol

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Re: Ara gid ba Porgatoryo?
« Reply #2 on: September 20, 2012, 06:01:52 AM »
Maghulat ka gid lang kay Fr. Pikoy Bonicol, sampaton siya sang debate2x sang ini nga dogtrina sang simbahan...

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BolBuhol

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Re: Ara gid ba Porgatoryo?
« Reply #3 on: September 20, 2012, 03:44:39 PM »
Dinhi sa TB damo gid hang maalamon sang ini nga hilisgotan pero indi gid sila makaibot sang sampak nga hambal mo haw...

;D



sang imo opingyon sir hubag bohol may ara o way gid haw?

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Re: Ara gid ba Porgatoryo?
« Reply #4 on: September 20, 2012, 04:17:41 PM »
sang imo opingyon sir hubag bohol may ara o way gid haw?

Hmm, may naa gid porgatoryo diri sang duta, nakita ko gid man sang duha kong mata. Indi ko mahambal kung may naa ba sang ibang kinabuhi, ini lang hang nasinati ko ya...

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Re: Ara gid ba Porgatoryo?
« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2012, 04:31:13 PM »
Wa jud koy nasabtan bisan gamay! Hahahahaha.

Ang doktrina nahimo nang DOGTRINA. Mao ba gud ni sa Ilonggo? ;D

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Pikoy

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Re: Ara gid ba Porgatoryo?
« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2012, 04:51:30 PM »
ang ginahambal mo gid to..bahin sang purgatoryo kung ara ba? ehh..para gid malaman mo kung ara ba..

sa pag kaka alam ko tungkol nito isa itong stop over, kung wala na ang isang tao sa lupa, ang kanyang kaloluwa ay maglakbay @ mag stop over muna dito sa tinawag na purgatoryo para husgahan ka kung saan ka papunta sa Impyerno(hell) ba O sa Langit..(heaven).

haha seryoso :D

pero ako2x rani to ha..ito ang paniniwala ko..

no more debates to..hehehe


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Re: Ara gid ba Porgatoryo?
« Reply #7 on: September 20, 2012, 04:56:04 PM »
ang ginahambal mo gid to..bahin sang purgatoryo kung ara ba? ehh..para gid malaman mo kung ara ba..

sa pag kaka alam ko tungkol nito isa itong stop over, kung wala na ang isang tao sa lupa, ang kanyang kaloluwa ay maglakbay @ mag stop over muna dito sa tinawag na purgatoryo para husgahan ka kung saan ka papunta sa Impyerno(hell) ba O sa Langit..(heaven).

haha seryoso :D



milagro kay wa ka mosimang karon.. hehehe ^__^ peace ~__^

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Pikoy

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Re: Ara gid ba Porgatoryo?
« Reply #8 on: September 20, 2012, 04:59:16 PM »

milagro kay wa ka mosimang karon.. hehehe ^__^ peace ~__^

hheheh..la syaman sugdan na natog simang..:D :D

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Re: Ara gid ba Porgatoryo?
« Reply #9 on: September 20, 2012, 05:25:10 PM »
mosimang lang ko kadiyot una ko mo-bye-bye kadiyot... abi nakog morag arabo si pikoy.  makita na man hinoon sa iyang avatar nga mora diay siyag si justin bieber.  ambot, langit ba na o purgatoryo para niya.  tira to! ;D

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Re: Ara gid ba Porgatoryo?
« Reply #10 on: September 20, 2012, 05:32:03 PM »
mosimang lang ko kadiyot una ko mo-bye-bye kadiyot... abi nakog morag arabo si pikoy.  makita na man hinoon sa iyang avatar nga mora diay siyag si justin bieber.  ambot, langit ba na o purgatoryo para niya.  tira to! ;D

pareha ta ma'am isles.. mo bye bye na pod ko karon samtang maayo ang panahon magwara wara sa ko karong gabie..

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BolBuhol

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Re: Ara gid ba Porgatoryo?
« Reply #11 on: September 20, 2012, 09:35:52 PM »
ang ginahambal mo gid to..bahin sang purgatoryo kung ara ba? ehh..para gid malaman mo kung ara ba..

sa pag kaka alam ko tungkol nito isa itong stop over, kung wala na ang isang tao sa lupa, ang kanyang kaloluwa ay maglakbay @ mag stop over muna dito sa tinawag na purgatoryo para husgahan ka kung saan ka papunta sa Impyerno(hell) ba O sa Langit..(heaven).

haha seryoso :D

pero ako2x rani to ha..ito ang paniniwala ko..

no more debates to..hehehe


ang hambal ko gid kong magkita gid na siya sang bibliya haw, kasi may ara gid partner ko namangkot gid sang akon kun san o gid sang sulat maigkita sang bibliya.

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BolBuhol

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Re: Ara gid ba Porgatoryo?
« Reply #12 on: September 20, 2012, 09:37:13 PM »
mosimang lang ko kadiyot una ko mo-bye-bye kadiyot... abi nakog morag arabo si pikoy.  makita na man hinoon sa iyang avatar nga mora diay siyag si justin bieber.  ambot, langit ba na o purgatoryo para niya.  tira to! ;D

madam isles tabangan mo gid ya ako, sayod gid ko ba na may ara ka gid ginatipigang kahingbalo mahitongod sang isyu na ginapamangkot ko gid ya.

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Lorenzo

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Re: Ara gid ba Porgatoryo?
« Reply #13 on: September 21, 2012, 12:21:49 AM »
Tabangan daw ko ninyo ani gid pag intindi gid ya, kung may ara gid ba sang bible ma kita.


The Bible does not mention the exact word "purgatory," but instead it makes reference to a place which can be understood as what is referred to as purgatory. To claim that purgatory does not exist because the exact word does not appear in Scripture is a failure to understand Scripture.

You might as well even deny that there is a book called the Bible because no such name is found in the inspired writings.

One might as well deny the Trinity, Incarnation, and so forth because these exact words are not found in the Bible.

The name does not make the place; the place must exist first, then we give it a name. We call this place "purgatory" because it means "a cleansing place." Therein souls are purged from the small stains of sin, which prevent their immediate entrance into Heaven.


In the Old Testament

The first mention of Purgatory in the Bible is in 2 Maccabees 12:46: "Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from sin."

Granted, 2 Maccabees may not be in Protestant Bibles, but even if it cannot be used doctrinally then it at least has to have some historical worth. In it we can see what the pre-Christian community believed.

In Chapter 12 we can see Scriptural proof for Purgatory and evidence that the Jews had sacrifices offered for those of their brothers who had lost their lives in battle. That the Jews prayed for the dead shows that they believed in a place where they could be helped (now called Purgatory) and that the prayers of their living brothers and sisters could help them in that place.

These words in the book of Maccabees had so clearly favored the Catholic custom, that the whole book was removed from the Protestant Bible. Unfortunately for them, even if the book was not inspired, it still tells us of the practice of God's chosen people.



In the New Testament

In Matthew 5:26 Christ is condemning sin and speaks of liberation only after expiation. "Amen, I say to you, you will not be released until you have paid the last penny." Now we know that no last penny needs to be paid in Heaven and from Hell there is no liberation at all; hence the reference must apply to a third place.

Matthew 12:32 says, "And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come."

The same person as in the previously mentioned verse, Matthew, speaks of sin against the Holy Spirit. The implication is that some sins can be forgiven in the world to come. But not in Hell from which there is no liberation; nor in Heaven because nothing imperfect can enter it as we see in the next part. Any remission of sin cannot occur in either of these places because they are a final destination unlike purgatory.

Revelation 21:27: "...but nothing unclean will enter it, nor anyone who does abominable things or tells lies." The place that is to be entered (the place to which this passage refers) is heaven (read the text around it for context).

The Bible clearly implies a place for temporary punishment after we die in the many passages which tell that God will reward or punish according to man's works.


Reference:
http://www.aboutcatholics.com/life_in_christ/where_purgatory_bible/


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Lorenzo

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Re: Ara gid ba Porgatoryo?
« Reply #14 on: September 21, 2012, 12:24:58 AM »



III. THE FINAL PURIFICATION, OR PURGATORY

1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:607

    As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.608

1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."609 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.610 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:

    Let us help and commemorate them. If Job's sons were purified by their father's sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.611



Reference:

The Catechism of the One, Holy, Roman Catholic Church
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a12.htm

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Lorenzo

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Re: Ara gid ba Porgatoryo?
« Reply #15 on: September 21, 2012, 12:28:13 AM »
I. A State After Death of Suffering and Forgiveness



Matt. 5:26,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 – Jesus teaches us, “Come to terms with your opponent or you will be handed over to the judge and thrown into prison. You will not get out until you have paid the last penny.” The word “opponent” (antidiko) is likely a reference to the devil (see the same word for devil in 1 Pet. 5:8 ) who is an accuser against man (c.f. Job 1.6-12; Zech. 3.1; Rev. 12.10), and God is the judge. If we have not adequately dealt with satan and sin in this life, we will be held in a temporary state called a prison, and we won’t get out until we have satisfied our entire debt to God. This “prison” is purgatory where we will not get out until the last penny is paid.

Matt. 5:48 - Jesus says, "be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect." We are only made perfect through purification, and in Catholic teaching, this purification, if not completed on earth, is continued in a transitional state we call purgatory.

Matt. 12:32 – Jesus says, “And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.” Jesus thus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. The phrase “in the next” (from the Greek “en to mellonti”) generally refers to the afterlife (see, for example, Mark 10.30; Luke 18.30; 20.34-35; Eph. 1.21 for similar language). Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for 2,000 years has called this state purgatory.

Luke 12:47-48 - when the Master comes (at the end of time), some will receive light or heavy beatings but will live. This state is not heaven or hell, because in heaven there are no beatings, and in hell we will no longer live with the Master.

Luke 16:19-31 - in this story, we see that the dead rich man is suffering but still feels compassion for his brothers and wants to warn them of his place of suffering. But there is no suffering in heaven or compassion in hell because compassion is a grace from God and those in hell are deprived from God's graces for all eternity. So where is the rich man? He is in purgatory.

1 Cor. 15:29-30 - Paul mentions people being baptized on behalf of the dead, in the context of atoning for their sins (people are baptized on the dead’s behalf so the dead can be raised). These people cannot be in heaven because they are still with sin, but they also cannot be in hell because their sins can no longer be atoned for. They are in purgatory. These verses directly correspond to 2 Macc. 12:44-45 which also shows specific prayers for the dead, so that they may be forgiven of their sin.

Phil. 2:10 - every knee bends to Jesus, in heaven, on earth, and "under the earth" which is the realm of the righteous dead, or purgatory.

2 Tim. 1:16-18 - Onesiphorus is dead but Paul asks for mercy on him “on that day.” Paul’s use of “that day” demonstrates its eschatological usage (see, for example, Rom. 2.5,16; 1 Cor. 1.8; 3.13; 5.5; 2 Cor. 1.14; Phil. 1.6,10; 2.16; 1 Thess. 5.2,4,5,8; 2 Thess. 2.2,3; 2 Tim. 4.8 ). Of course, there is no need for mercy in heaven, and there is no mercy given in hell. Where is Onesiphorus? He is in purgatory.

Heb. 12:14 - without holiness no one will see the Lord. We need final sanctification to attain true holiness before God, and this process occurs during our lives and, if not completed during our lives, in the transitional state of purgatory.

Heb. 12:23 - the spirits of just men who died in godliness are "made" perfect. They do not necessarily arrive perfect. They are made perfect after their death. But those in heaven are already perfect, and those in hell can no longer be made perfect. These spirits are in purgatory.

1 Peter 3:19; 4:6 - Jesus preached to the spirits in the "prison." These are the righteous souls being purified for the beatific vision.

Rev. 21:4 - God shall wipe away their tears, and there will be no mourning or pain, but only after the coming of the new heaven and the passing away of the current heaven and earth. Note the elimination of tears and pain only occurs at the end of time. But there is no morning or pain in heaven, and God will not wipe away their tears in hell. These are the souls experiencing purgatory.

Rev. 21:27 - nothing unclean shall enter heaven. The word “unclean” comes from the Greek word “koinon” which refers to a spiritual corruption. Even the propensity to sin is spiritually corrupt, or considered unclean, and must be purified before entering heaven. It is amazing how many Protestants do not want to believe in purgatory. Purgatory exists because of the mercy of God. If there were no purgatory, this would also likely mean no salvation for most people. God is merciful indeed.

Luke 23:43 – many Protestants argue that, because Jesus sent the good thief right to heaven, there can be no purgatory. There are several rebuttals. First, when Jesus uses the word "paradise,” He did not mean heaven. Paradise, from the Hebrew "sheol," meant the realm of the righteous dead. This was the place of the dead who were destined for heaven, but who were captive until the Lord's resurrection. Second, since there was no punctuation in the original manuscript, Jesus’ statement “I say to you today you will be with me in paradise” does not mean there was a comma after the first word “you.” This means Jesus could have said, “I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise” (meaning, Jesus could have emphasized with exclamation his statement was “today” or “now,” and that some time in the future the good thief would go to heaven). Third, even if the thief went straight to heaven, this does not prove there is no purgatory (those who are fully sanctified in this life – perhaps by a bloody and repentant death – could be ready for admission in to heaven).

Gen. 50:10; Num. 20:29; Deut. 34:8 - here are some examples of ritual prayer and penitent mourning for the dead for specific periods of time. The Jewish understanding of these practices was that the prayers freed the souls from their painful state of purification, and expedited their journey to God.

Baruch 3:4 - Baruch asks the Lord to hear the prayers of the dead of Israel. Prayers for the dead are unnecessary in heaven and unnecessary in hell. These dead are in purgatory.

Zech. 9:11 - God, through the blood of His covenant, will set those free from the waterless pit, a spiritual abode of suffering which the Church calls purgatory.

2 Macc. 12:43-45 - the prayers for the dead help free them from sin and help them to the reward of heaven. Those in heaven have no sin, and those in hell can no longer be freed from sin. They are in purgatory. Luther was particularly troubled with these verses because he rejected the age-old teaching of purgatory. As a result, he removed Maccabees from the canon of the Bible.






Reference
Retrieved from:
http://www.scripturecatholic.com/purgatory.html

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Re: Ara gid ba Porgatoryo?
« Reply #16 on: September 21, 2012, 02:35:02 AM »
madam isles tabangan mo gid ya ako, sayod gid ko ba na may ara ka gid ginatipigang kahingbalo mahitongod sang isyu na ginapamangkot ko gid ya.

kompleto na ang ginahambal ni lorenz sa imong pamangkot, bolbs.  kontento ka na?  these are doctrinal issues, catholic ones.

sa akon simple lang ang relihiyon and all things related to my faith.  our lives, and the human laws that we abide by in our lives, are ideally bible-based.  it is in the interpretation of the bible, in the discernment, that we could differ.  some are better at discerning than others. 

as a catholic, i'd rather put my trust in our doctrinal experts for the bible's interpretation (as compared to other christian religions whose adherents tend to read the bible literally).  i believe the bible is too complicated a book with too many literary devices to be taken too literally.  the wisdom of the ages thus must take the upper hand.  it is in this context that i believe there is purgatory because our church's doctrinal experts and thinkers have said so since way, way back. 

the word purgatory may not be in the bible, but it does not mean that the state of cleansing, that state of atonement and forgiveness, which is not necessarily a physical place, does not exist.  that our church fathers gave it a name, well, so much the better; it makes it easier to understand.

may ara gid ako ngalan.  kun wala pa, o kun iba pa akon ngalan, wala kana magkahulugan nga wala gid ako dinhi.  karon lang, kun molingi ka, naa gid ko sa imon luyo. ;D

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Re: Ara gid ba Porgatoryo?
« Reply #17 on: September 21, 2012, 01:19:53 PM »
kompleto na ang ginahambal ni lorenz sa imong pamangkot, bolbs.  kontento ka na?  these are doctrinal issues, catholic ones.

sa akon simple lang ang relihiyon and all things related to my faith.  our lives, and the human laws that we abide by in our lives, are ideally bible-based.  it is in the interpretation of the bible, in the discernment, that we could differ.  some are better at discerning than others. 

as a catholic, i'd rather put my trust in our doctrinal experts for the bible's interpretation (as compared to other christian religions whose adherents tend to read the bible literally).  i believe the bible is too complicated a book with too many literary devices to be taken too literally.  the wisdom of the ages thus must take the upper hand.  it is in this context that i believe there is purgatory because our church's doctrinal experts and thinkers have said so since way, way back. 

the word purgatory may not be in the bible, but it does not mean that the state of cleansing, that state of atonement and forgiveness, which is not necessarily a physical place, does not exist.  that our church fathers gave it a name, well, so much the better; it makes it easier to understand.

may ara gid ako ngalan.  kun wala pa, o kun iba pa akon ngalan, wala kana magkahulugan nga wala gid ako dinhi.  karon lang, kun molingi ka, naa gid ko sa imon luyo. ;D

I second that, Isles. The benefits of siding with doctrinal explanation is that one evades committing heresy that way. Many of our protestant christian brothers & sisters who depend solely on personal interpretation without Roman Catholic Ecclesiastic Doctrinal Teaching have the propensity of committing heresy.

The protestant rejection of the existence of purgatory as unbiblical is the thesis of heresy. Their basis is on Lutheran methodology, which in itself,  is heretical. Martin Luther, may God have mercy on his eternal soul, was responsible for removing 7 books from Holy Scripture. He was, of course, excommunicated from the Roman Catholic Church, even unto death.

The St. James version of the bible, since it is devoid of the 7 books (Tobit, Judith, Baruch, Wisdom, Sirach, 1 and 2 Maccabees, and parts of Esther and Daniel) is heretical in regards to the True, and Complete Version of the Holy Bible, which is Roman Catholic Bible.

Incidentally, it was the Early Church Fathers of the One, Holy Roman Catholic Church who compiled Holy Scripture in its entirety. It was the protestant heretic, Martin Luther, who removed 7 books without any authority whatsoever.





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Re: Ara gid ba Porgatoryo?
« Reply #18 on: September 21, 2012, 03:22:48 PM »
ang hambal ko gid kong magkita gid na siya sang bibliya haw, kasi may ara gid partner ko namangkot gid sang akon kun san o gid sang sulat maigkita sang bibliya.

hindi mn gid ako naka intindi sang ginahabal mo to...pero lahat ng naririnig ko tungkol sang purgaryo ehh.ala man daw gid na sang bibliya naka sulat, ehh..baka hindi lang nila nakita don kasi binura ni bro bugsay @ kapatid hubag..:D :D

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Re: Ara gid ba Porgatoryo?
« Reply #19 on: September 21, 2012, 03:51:23 PM »
hehehe, wa na lang gyod diay laing sad-an... naturalmente.

si bro bugsay, el shaddai?  si kapatid hubag, iglesia ni cristo?  sakto ba ini, to? ;D

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Re: Ara gid ba Porgatoryo?
« Reply #20 on: September 21, 2012, 05:57:59 PM »
hindi mn gid ako naka intindi sang ginahabal mo to...

Bwahaha! Bay Piks, hinihikayat kagid ni To Bol nga mag-aral sang Hilonggo haw... ;D




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Re: Ara gid ba Porgatoryo?
« Reply #21 on: September 21, 2012, 08:21:36 PM »
Bwahaha! Bay Piks, hinihikayat kagid ni To Bol nga mag-aral sang Hilonggo haw... ;D

ini haw, ginahabal sang sampak gid lang ang nalaman ko sang hilonggo bai hubag,,..ehhh..:D :D

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Re: Ara gid ba Porgatoryo?
« Reply #22 on: September 21, 2012, 08:48:36 PM »
ini haw, ginahabal sang sampak gid lang ang nalaman ko sang hilonggo bai hubag,,..ehhh..:D :D

Ang pulong "sang" lang hang Hilonggo haw. Binol-anon ini ya... ;D

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Re: Ara gid ba Porgatoryo?
« Reply #23 on: September 21, 2012, 10:00:04 PM »
hehehe, wa na lang gyod diay laing sad-an... naturalmente.

si bro bugsay, el shaddai?  si kapatid hubag, iglesia ni cristo?  sakto ba ini, to? ;D

baw gid ya kon sakto gid hang pamangkot mo madam isles, no comins gid ako diha ya.  sila lang gid hang maka hambal sang ilang kaogalingong pangotok.

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Re: Ara gid ba Porgatoryo?
« Reply #24 on: September 21, 2012, 10:07:25 PM »
salamat gid sang mga hambal hambal dinhi gid hang mga ixplinasyon ninyo gid toto sir  Lorenz kag nene madam isles    :)

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Re: Ara gid ba Porgatoryo?
« Reply #25 on: September 22, 2012, 07:15:39 AM »
Hmm, angdam na gid hang Bols nga magpaporga ya...

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Re: Ara gid ba Porgatoryo?
« Reply #26 on: September 22, 2012, 04:08:08 PM »
salamat gid sang mga hambal hambal dinhi gid hang mga ixplinasyon ninyo gid toto sir  Lorenz kag nene madam isles    :)

sang hambal habal gid diay ni bro bugsay ug kapatid hubag to bohl lagid labot man diay??

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Re: Ara gid ba Porgatoryo?
« Reply #27 on: September 22, 2012, 04:46:57 PM »
Way gid mabasa sa Bibliya ang pong purgatoryo. Sa King James mabasa nato ang, "forgot to you."

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Re: Ara gid ba Porgatoryo?
« Reply #28 on: September 22, 2012, 06:17:00 PM »
Way gid mabasa sa Bibliya ang pong purgatoryo. Sa King James mabasa nato ang, "forgot to you."

Sa atong pagsabot sa Bibliya dunay duha ka paagi, una ang gitawag og DEFINITUS kun Explicit, dali Makita ang kahulugan pinaagi sa mabasa letra por letra. Ang ikaduha mao ang gitawag nga IMPLICATIO kun Implicit.Dili nato Makita dayon ang kahulogan kay dili man mabasa letra por letra, apan masabtan pinaagi sa naglimin nga kahulogan.
Ang pananglit sa Definitus kun Explicit, kun pruybahon nga si Cristo, Dios letra por letra: “Kay nagpaabot kita sa bulahan nga pagpadayag sa atong dakong Dios ug Manluluwas nga si Cristo: nga mihatag sa iyang kaugalingon alang kanato…” (Tito 2:13-14). Ang pagpruyba nga si Cristo Dios sa paagi nga IMPLICATIO mao ang Iyang pagbuhi og minatay, kang Lazaro. Wala siya moingon nga Siya Dios apan sayod nga makabuhi og patay sa Iyang kaugalingong gahom mao ang Dios (Deut. 32:39). “Ako mao ang Dios, Ako ang magkahatag og kinabuhi ug Ako usab ang makapatay sa tawo”.
Laing pruyba sa IMPLICATIO kun implicit mao ang pagtagna bahin sa manglupad nga puthaw ang ayroplano: “Ang Iyang mga caroo sama sa alimpuos…” (Jer. 4:13). Ang kanhi nga mga caroo sa gubat hinimo’g puthaw
Ang Purgatoryo anaa sa kategoriya nga IMPLICATIO kun Implicit dili letra por letra apan matin-aw kon sabton ang iyang kahulogan. Kay ang Dios mosilot sa kasal-anan sa tawo agad sa gidak-on o gigamyon sa maong sala. Kon dako ang sala, dako usab ang isilot kon gamay ra ang sala, gamay ra usab ang isilot (Lukas 12:47-48).
Ug kadtong mga nangamatay nga gamay ra ang sala, wala kini mahinulsoli, silotan sila apan adto sa silot nga makagawas pa sila human sila malimpiyohi. “Kon ang buhat ni bisan kinsa mahulog sa kapildihan walay dapayan nga moagi og kalayo apan maluwas pa siya,” (1 Cor. 3:15). Ug ang maong mga kalag katabangan pa sa atong mga pag-ampo: “Kay balaanon ug makaluwas ang pag-ampo alang sa mga nangamatay aron sila mabadbaran sa ilang mga sala,” (2 Macabeo 12:45). “Ug human nila mabayri ang diriyut nila nga sala makagawas pa sa sila sa prisohan,” (Mat. 5:26). Kay may sala nga mapasaylo pa sa sunod nga kinabuhi (Mat. 12:32).

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EXPLICIT = precisely & clearly expressed or readily observable.
IMPLICIT / IMPLIED =  “napasabot” (express or state indirectly)
        Ex: The water shortage, it means that we have to stop taking long showers.




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Re: Ara gid ba Porgatoryo?
« Reply #29 on: September 22, 2012, 07:02:12 PM »
very, very interesting.  kini nga whole explanation as posted by bolbs is truly definitus.

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Re: Ara gid ba Porgatoryo?
« Reply #30 on: September 22, 2012, 07:06:19 PM »
very, very interesting.  kini nga whole explanation as posted by bolbs is truly definitus.

naka intindi gid kaha sang baitobs ani, basin ipatranslate pa ni niya sang hilonggo..haw..:D

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Re: Ara gid ba Porgatoryo?
« Reply #31 on: September 22, 2012, 07:07:20 PM »
he would welcome your translation, piks.

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Re: Ara gid ba Porgatoryo?
« Reply #32 on: September 22, 2012, 07:14:51 PM »
he would welcome your translation, piks.

no....,,not me ms isle, si bai hubag ani kay experto sang hinilonggoy man gid ya, kay kining akoa tira pasagad raman ni sak sak sinagol bahal kaau paminawon basin ma highblood si baitubs..;D ;D

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Re: Ara gid ba Porgatoryo?
« Reply #33 on: September 22, 2012, 07:27:31 PM »
no....,,not me ms isle, si bai hubag ani kay experto sang hinilonggoy man gid ya, kay kining akoa tira pasagad raman ni sak sak sinagol bahal kaau paminawon basin ma highblood si baitubs..;D ;D

tira 'to piks... ;D

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Re: Ara gid ba Porgatoryo?
« Reply #34 on: September 22, 2012, 07:38:25 PM »
tira 'to piks... ;D

tira to bots bai bugs...! ;D

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Re: Ara gid ba Porgatoryo?
« Reply #35 on: September 22, 2012, 09:25:25 PM »
Way nakaadto sa purgatoryo.
Si Jesus misaka na sa langit. Mga bersikulo nga nagpamatuod:
The Lord Jesus Christ, demonstrated by the Ascension to be Lord (Matthew 28:18; Acts 2:36), entered upon His work as King; He is seated at the right hand of God (Matthew 26:64; Acts 2:33; Romans 8:34; Colossians 3:1; Hebrews 1:3; Hebrews 10:12; Hebrews 12:2; 1 Peter 3:22), a picture of the unique position the Father has given Him of kingly power and authority over angels, authorities and powers in heaven and on earth (Daniel 7:13,14; Matthew 26:64; Ephesians 1:21,22; Ephesians 4:10; Colossians 1:16-18; Hebrews 1:13; 1 Peter 3:22).

The Lord Jesus Christ ascended to receive, as Conqueror, the gifts promised Him for His Church (Ephesians 4:8; Psalms 68:18): He ascended to send forth the Holy Spirit (John 7:39; 16:7; Acts 2:33).

The Ascension of Christ and the consequent outpouring of the Spirit made possible the numerous gifts of the Spirit that the Church enjoys (Ephesians 4:8,11-13).

The Lord Jesus Christ ascended to prepare a place for Christians (John 14:2): He is their forerunner, preparing the way for them (Hebrews 6:20; compared with Acts 7:56).

Christians are already set with the Lord Jesus Christ in heavenly places, for they are made to share by grace, through faith, the Resurrection and Ascension of Christ (Ephesians 2:6): their citizenship is now in heaven and their thoughts and affections should be set there (Philippians 3:20; Colossians 3:1,2).

In Christ's Ascension Christians have the assurance of a place in heaven (2 Corinthians 4:14; John 14:19) and of their own glorification (Philippians 3:21): God's purpose in giving Christians a share in the Resurrection and Ascension of their Lord is that in the coming ages He might show the immeasurable riches of His grace in kindness toward them in Christ Jesus (John 17:24; Ephesians 2:7).

Ang datu nga namatay didto na sa impiyerno. Mga bersikulo nga nagpamatuod:
Luke 16:19-31

[19] "There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. [20] At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores [21] and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

[22] "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. [23] In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. [24] So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'

Dunay bay bersikulo nga nagpamatuod nga nakaadto sa porgatoryo.

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Re: Ara gid ba Porgatoryo?
« Reply #36 on: September 22, 2012, 09:27:39 PM »
Sa atong pagsabot sa Bibliya dunay duha ka paagi, una ang gitawag og DEFINITUS kun Explicit, dali Makita ang kahulugan pinaagi sa mabasa letra por letra. Ang ikaduha mao ang gitawag nga IMPLICATIO kun Implicit.Dili nato Makita dayon ang kahulogan kay dili man mabasa letra por letra, apan masabtan pinaagi sa naglimin nga kahulogan.
Ang pananglit sa Definitus kun Explicit, kun pruybahon nga si Cristo, Dios letra por letra: “Kay nagpaabot kita sa bulahan nga pagpadayag sa atong dakong Dios ug Manluluwas nga si Cristo: nga mihatag sa iyang kaugalingon alang kanato…” (Tito 2:13-14). Ang pagpruyba nga si Cristo Dios sa paagi nga IMPLICATIO mao ang Iyang pagbuhi og minatay, kang Lazaro. Wala siya moingon nga Siya Dios apan sayod nga makabuhi og patay sa Iyang kaugalingong gahom mao ang Dios (Deut. 32:39). “Ako mao ang Dios, Ako ang magkahatag og kinabuhi ug Ako usab ang makapatay sa tawo”.
Laing pruyba sa IMPLICATIO kun implicit mao ang pagtagna bahin sa manglupad nga puthaw ang ayroplano: “Ang Iyang mga caroo sama sa alimpuos…” (Jer. 4:13). Ang kanhi nga mga caroo sa gubat hinimo’g puthaw
Ang Purgatoryo anaa sa kategoriya nga IMPLICATIO kun Implicit dili letra por letra apan matin-aw kon sabton ang iyang kahulogan. Kay ang Dios mosilot sa kasal-anan sa tawo agad sa gidak-on o gigamyon sa maong sala. Kon dako ang sala, dako usab ang isilot kon gamay ra ang sala, gamay ra usab ang isilot (Lukas 12:47-48).
Ug kadtong mga nangamatay nga gamay ra ang sala, wala kini mahinulsoli, silotan sila apan adto sa silot nga makagawas pa sila human sila malimpiyohi. “Kon ang buhat ni bisan kinsa mahulog sa kapildihan walay dapayan nga moagi og kalayo apan maluwas pa siya,” (1 Cor. 3:15). Ug ang maong mga kalag katabangan pa sa atong mga pag-ampo: “Kay balaanon ug makaluwas ang pag-ampo alang sa mga nangamatay aron sila mabadbaran sa ilang mga sala,” (2 Macabeo 12:45). “Ug human nila mabayri ang diriyut nila nga sala makagawas pa sa sila sa prisohan,” (Mat. 5:26). Kay may sala nga mapasaylo pa sa sunod nga kinabuhi (Mat. 12:32).

http://catholicfaithdefender.wordpress.com



EXPLICIT = precisely & clearly expressed or readily observable.
IMPLICIT / IMPLIED =  “napasabot” (express or state indirectly)
        Ex: The water shortage, it means that we have to stop taking long showers.


Wa koy hilig mogahin og higayon sa academic discussions nga sama niini, apan kon si To Bol moseryoso ani nga tema, sakay na lang pud ko.

Biyaan ta na lang ang prologue bahin sa paggamit sa mga pulong definitus ug implicatio (which, sorry folks, reminds me of coitus and fellatio), pero atoa ning ginagmayon kay bug-at jamo ang tema.

Random lang una. Adto ta sa usa ka Biblical reference. Sigon sa Cathoilic Defender website, as quoted by my friend: "Ang Purgatoryo anaa sa kategoriya nga IMPLICATIO kun Implicit dili letra por letra apan matin-aw kon sabton ang iyang kahulogan. Kay ang Dios mosilot sa kasal-anan sa tawo agad sa gidak-on o gigamyon sa maong sala. Kon dako ang sala, dako usab ang isilot kon gamay ra ang sala, gamay ra usab ang isilot. (Lukas 12:47-48)

Karon, unsa may gisulti sa maong mga berso? Mao ni (sorry, Iningles ray akong nakit-an):

47 “The servant who knows the master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows. 48 But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked. --New International Version (NIV)

Kamo na lay pinsar...

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Re: Ara gid ba Porgatoryo?
« Reply #37 on: September 22, 2012, 09:34:33 PM »
no....,,not me ms isle, si bai hubag ani kay experto sang hinilonggoy man gid ya, kay kining akoa tira pasagad raman ni sak sak sinagol bahal kaau paminawon basin ma highblood si baitubs..;D ;D

He he, indi gid heksperto hang Hilonggo ko ya, sugat2x gid lang man, pero sang iban nga adlaw pati hugos2x pode gid haw...

;D



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Re: Ara gid ba Porgatoryo?
« Reply #38 on: September 22, 2012, 10:07:44 PM »
Way gid mabasa sa Bibliya ang pong purgatoryo. Sa King James mabasa nato ang, "forgot to you."

Mr. Daray,

In defense of Roman Catholic Magesterium, which was responsible for the promulgation of Holy Scripture, any and all other variants of the HOLY SCRIPTURE that are missing any books in old and new testament are all heretical variants. It is impossible for protestants to conceptually understand the existence of purgatory because the version of Holy Scripture that you read are the ones that were prepared by the heretic Martin Luther, who was responsible for removing 7 books from HOLY SCRIPTURE. For our protestant brothers and sisters to understand this concept, they must  accept that the St. James version is incomplete , and must read the Roman Catholic Holy Bible for the dispensation of the True Gospel's teachings.

The biblical version that you and other protestant brothers and sisters use are incomplete and devoid of 7 books that we, Roman Catholics, read and listen to during the Celebration of Holy Mass.

Purgatory exists. It is defined so and declared so by the incorruptibility and authority of the One, Holy Roman Catholic Church, which is guided by the Vicar of Christ, His Holiness the Pope.

Extra Ecclesiam  Nulla Salus
"Outside The Church, there is no salvation"





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Lorenzo

 

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Lorenzo

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Re: Ara gid ba Porgatoryo?
« Reply #39 on: September 22, 2012, 10:20:41 PM »
Sa atong pagsabot sa Bibliya dunay duha ka paagi, una ang gitawag og DEFINITUS kun Explicit, dali Makita ang kahulugan pinaagi sa mabasa letra por letra. Ang ikaduha mao ang gitawag nga IMPLICATIO kun Implicit.Dili nato Makita dayon ang kahulogan kay dili man mabasa letra por letra, apan masabtan pinaagi sa naglimin nga kahulogan.
Ang pananglit sa Definitus kun Explicit, kun pruybahon nga si Cristo, Dios letra por letra: “Kay nagpaabot kita sa bulahan nga pagpadayag sa atong dakong Dios ug Manluluwas nga si Cristo: nga mihatag sa iyang kaugalingon alang kanato…” (Tito 2:13-14). Ang pagpruyba nga si Cristo Dios sa paagi nga IMPLICATIO mao ang Iyang pagbuhi og minatay, kang Lazaro. Wala siya moingon nga Siya Dios apan sayod nga makabuhi og patay sa Iyang kaugalingong gahom mao ang Dios (Deut. 32:39). “Ako mao ang Dios, Ako ang magkahatag og kinabuhi ug Ako usab ang makapatay sa tawo”.
Laing pruyba sa IMPLICATIO kun implicit mao ang pagtagna bahin sa manglupad nga puthaw ang ayroplano: “Ang Iyang mga caroo sama sa alimpuos…” (Jer. 4:13). Ang kanhi nga mga caroo sa gubat hinimo’g puthaw
Ang Purgatoryo anaa sa kategoriya nga IMPLICATIO kun Implicit dili letra por letra apan matin-aw kon sabton ang iyang kahulogan. Kay ang Dios mosilot sa kasal-anan sa tawo agad sa gidak-on o gigamyon sa maong sala. Kon dako ang sala, dako usab ang isilot kon gamay ra ang sala, gamay ra usab ang isilot (Lukas 12:47-48).
Ug kadtong mga nangamatay nga gamay ra ang sala, wala kini mahinulsoli, silotan sila apan adto sa silot nga makagawas pa sila human sila malimpiyohi. “Kon ang buhat ni bisan kinsa mahulog sa kapildihan walay dapayan nga moagi og kalayo apan maluwas pa siya,” (1 Cor. 3:15). Ug ang maong mga kalag katabangan pa sa atong mga pag-ampo: “Kay balaanon ug makaluwas ang pag-ampo alang sa mga nangamatay aron sila mabadbaran sa ilang mga sala,” (2 Macabeo 12:45). “Ug human nila mabayri ang diriyut nila nga sala makagawas pa sa sila sa prisohan,” (Mat. 5:26). Kay may sala nga mapasaylo pa sa sunod nga kinabuhi (Mat. 12:32).

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EXPLICIT = precisely & clearly expressed or readily observable.
IMPLICIT / IMPLIED =  “napasabot” (express or state indirectly)
        Ex: The water shortage, it means that we have to stop taking long showers.




Approve ko ani ! So long as we stick to doctrinal teachings, approve ko. :)

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Pikoy

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Re: Ara gid ba Porgatoryo?
« Reply #40 on: September 22, 2012, 10:21:45 PM »
here's more bai tobs ito nabasa ko na:

kung naka post mn gani kini pasensya lanako nabasa, basin nasal angan. ;D

The doctrine of purgatory is based on the biblical truth that God’s judgment will be based on what we have done. [Revelation 20-12-13] From this, it follows that punishment will be based on the gravity of sins. Those who died committing grave or mortal sins will be condemned in Hell. But we must realize that:

1. Not all sins are mortal. [1 John 5:16]
2. Nothing impure enters heaven. [Revelation 21:27]

So if a man dies with sins that are not mortal [i.e., do not lead to death], he will not go to Hell because his sins are not grave enough to warrant eternal punishment. However, he will not be able to go to Heaven immediately because he is not pure enough to enter in it. He will first need to undergo purification to enter Heaven. Purification in the afterlife is what we call PURGATORY. This is not a stretch because the bible says that the “forgiveness of sins” happens not only in this world but even in the afterlife [Matthew 12:32; 2 Maccabees 12:46], and that alongside Heaven and Earth there is a place called “under the Earth” where people worship Christ [Philippians 2:10], which points to Purgatory. So Purgatory is biblical. You just have to exercise diligence in understanding the scriptures. The bible says: “whoso readeth, let him understand.” [Matthew 24:15]




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Re: Ara gid ba Porgatoryo?
« Reply #41 on: September 22, 2012, 10:31:09 PM »
That's an excellent addendum, Bai Piks, to this discussion in defense of the Truths that the Catechism teaches all of us. Thanks also for the scriptural verses.  :D

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Re: Ara gid ba Porgatoryo?
« Reply #42 on: September 22, 2012, 11:07:53 PM »
Way gid mabasa sa Bibliya ang pong purgatoryo. Sa King James mabasa nato ang, "forgot to you."

You will sometimes hear it said that the word ‘Purgatory’ is not to be found in Holy Scripture, and it is true that the word itself did not come into common use until the Middle Ages, but the doctrine whereby souls are detained prior to their entry into Heaven is proved by references to the dead in the Old Testament, the New Testament, the Councils of Florence and of Trent and by Tradition.

An example of prayers being offered for the dead in the Old Testament is contained in the Book of Machabees.  It was written long before the coming of Christ. We learn from it that Judas Machabeus, commander of the Jewish army, lost a large number of his soldiers in a successful battle against the Syrians. When these soldiers came to be buried, heathen charms were discovered under their tunics. It worried Judas to think that some of his soldiers had been unfaithful to the one true God. In an effort to beg pardon of God for their sins, he collected 12,000 drachmas of silver and sent them to the temple in Jerusalem to have sacrifices offered for the dead soldiers, expressing the generally-held belief that ‘it is a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from sins’.

In the New Testament a declaration made by St. Paul in a letter to the Corinthians (1 Corinthians 3: 14-15) is generally taken to refer to what we now think of as Purgatory. It reads: ‘If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.’

excerpt from An Explanation of Purgatory by Jim Dunning
http://www.mysticsofthechurch.com/2010/04/explanation-of-purgatory-part-1-of-2.html
underscoring mine


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Re: Ara gid ba Porgatoryo?
« Reply #43 on: September 22, 2012, 11:23:32 PM »
had anyone seen purgatory?  fortunately, or unfortunately, the answer is yes.

the mystic and visionary st. faustina (1905-1938) in her diary had described purgatory as follows:

" ...I saw my Guardian Angel, who ordered me to follow him. In a moment I was in a misty place full of fire in which there was a great crowd of suffering souls. They were praying fervently, but to no avail, for themselves; only we can come to their aid. The flames, which were burning them, did not touch me at all. My Guardian Angel did not leave me for an instant. I asked these souls what their greatest suffering was. They answered me in one voice that their greatest torment was longing for God. I saw Our Lady visiting the souls in Purgatory. The souls call Her “The Star of the Sea”. She brings them refreshment. I wanted to talk with them some more, but my Guardian Angel beckoned me to leave. We went out of that prison of suffering. [I heard an interior voice which said] ‘My mercy does not want this, but justice demands it. Since that time, I am in closer communion with the suffering souls.’” (Diary, 20) - http://cloudoffire.blogspot.com

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Re: Ara gid ba Porgatoryo?
« Reply #44 on: September 22, 2012, 11:35:59 PM »
Brothers and Sisters, let us pray for the forgiveness of sins of the eternal souls of our fellow departed dead; be they Catholic, Protestant, let us pray for the forgiveness of their sins.



Heavenly Father, in union with the merits of Jesus and Mary, I offer to You for the sake of the poor souls all the satisfactory value of my works during life, as well as all that will be done for me after death. I give You my all through the hands of the Immaculate Virgin Mary that she may set free whatever souls she pleases, according to her heavenly wisdom and mother's love for them. Recieve this offering, O God, and grant me in return an increase of Your grace. Amen.


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Re: Ara gid ba Porgatoryo?
« Reply #45 on: September 22, 2012, 11:36:53 PM »
Eternal Father, I offer Thee the Most Precious Blood of Thy Divine Son, Jesus, in union with the masses said throughout the world today, for all the holy souls in purgatory, for sinners everywhere, for sinners in the universal church, those in my own home and within my family. Amen.


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Re: Ara gid ba Porgatoryo?
« Reply #46 on: September 23, 2012, 08:49:48 AM »
Unya sa panahon sa paghukom, Revelation 20:15,  Ug kon ang ngalan ni bisan kinsa dili makaplagan sa basahon sa kinabuhi, siya itambog sa linaw ng kalayo sa imperno. Duha lang ka destinasyon ang padulngan sa mga kalag, ang nakita sa lista adto sa langit. Unsa may basihan kon kinsa ang moadto sa purgatoryo. Wala. Mabaw kaayo nga pagtulun-an, dili Biblical, kay walay verse nga magpamatuod.

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Re: Ara gid ba Porgatoryo?
« Reply #47 on: September 23, 2012, 07:42:18 PM »
That's an excellent addendum, Bai Piks, to this discussion in defense of the Truths that the Catechism teaches all of us. Thanks also for the scriptural verses.  :D

way sapayan doc lorenz...

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Re: Ara gid ba Porgatoryo?
« Reply #48 on: September 24, 2012, 05:07:48 AM »
Unya sa panahon sa paghukom, Revelation 20:15,  Ug kon ang ngalan ni bisan kinsa dili makaplagan sa basahon sa kinabuhi, siya itambog sa linaw ng kalayo sa imperno. Duha lang ka destinasyon ang padulngan sa mga kalag, ang nakita sa lista adto sa langit. Unsa may basihan kon kinsa ang moadto sa purgatoryo. Wala. Mabaw kaayo nga pagtulun-an, dili Biblical, kay walay verse nga magpamatuod.


Matthew 5:25-26 Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison; truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny.



St. Francis de Sales:

Origen, St. Cyprian, St. Hilary, St. Ambrose, St. Jerome, and St. Augustine say that the way which is meant in the whilst thou art in the way [while you are going with him to court] is no other than the passage of the present life: the adversary [accuser] will be our own conscience, . . . as St. Ambrose expounds, and Bede, St. Augustine, St. Gregory [the Great], and St. Bernard. Lastly, the judge is without doubt Our Lord . . . The prison, again, is . . . the place of punishment in the other world, in which, as in a large jail, there are many buildings; one for those who are damned, which is as it were for criminals, the other for those in Purgatory, which is as it were for debt. The farthing, [penny] . . . are little sins and infirmities, as the farthing is the smallest money one can owe.

Now let us consider a little where this repayment . . . is to be made. And we find from most ancient Fathers that it is in Purgatory: Tertullian, [11] Cyprian, [12] Origen, [13] . . . St. Ambrose, [14] St. Jerome [15] . . . Who sees not that in St. Luke the comparison is drawn, not from a murderer or some criminal, who can have no hope of escape, but from a debtor who is thrown into prison till payment, and when this is made is at once let out? This then is the meaning of Our Lord, that whilst we are in this world we should try by penitence and its fruits to pay, according to the power which we have by the blood of the Redeemer, the penalty to which our sins have subjected us; since if we wait till death we shall not have such good terms in Purgatory, when we shall be treated with severity of justice. [16]




Reference
Retrieved from: http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2008/02/biblical-evidence-for-purgatory.html

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Re: Ara gid ba Porgatoryo?
« Reply #49 on: September 24, 2012, 05:08:48 AM »
Unya sa panahon sa paghukom, Revelation 20:15,  Ug kon ang ngalan ni bisan kinsa dili makaplagan sa basahon sa kinabuhi, siya itambog sa linaw ng kalayo sa imperno. Duha lang ka destinasyon ang padulngan sa mga kalag, ang nakita sa lista adto sa langit. Unsa may basihan kon kinsa ang moadto sa purgatoryo. Wala. Mabaw kaayo nga pagtulun-an, dili Biblical, kay walay verse nga magpamatuod.



Matthew 12:32 And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.




If sins can be pardoned in the "age to come" (the afterlife), again, in the nature of things, this must be in purgatory. We would laugh at a man who said that he would not marry in this world or the next (as if he could in the next -- see Mark 12:25). If this sin cannot be forgiven after death, it follows that there are others which can be. Accordingly, this interpretation was held by St. Augustine, [17] St. Gregory the Great, [18] Bede, [19] and St. Bernard, [20] among others.



Reference
Retrieved from: http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2008/02/biblical-evidence-for-purgatory.html

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Re: Ara gid ba Porgatoryo?
« Reply #50 on: September 24, 2012, 05:11:51 AM »
1 Corinthians 3:11-15 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble - each man's work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.


---

This is a clear and obvious allusion to purgatory, or at least, even for the most skeptical person, something exceedingly similar to it. Thus thought the Fathers, such as St. Cyprian, [25] St. Ambrose, [26] St. Jerome, [27] St. Gregory the Great, [28] Origen, [29] and St. Augustine:

Lord, rebuke me not in Your indignation, nor correct me in Your anger [Psalm 38:1]. . . . In this life may You cleanse me and make me such that I have no need of the corrective fire, which is for those who are saved, but as if by fire . . . For it is said: He shall be saved, but as if by fire [1 Corinthians 3:15]. And because it is said that he shall be saved, little is thought of that fire. Yet plainly, though we be saved by fire, that fire will be more severe than anything a man can suffer in this life. [30]


St. Francis de Sales observes:

The Apostle uses two similitudes. The first is of an architect who with solid materials builds a valuable house on a rock: the second is of one who on the same foundation erects a house of boards, reeds, straw. Let us now imagine that a fire breaks out in both the houses. That which is of solid material will be out of danger, and the other will be burnt to ashes. And if the architect be in the first he will be whole and safe; if he be in the second, he must, if he would escape, rush through fire and flame, and shall be saved yet so that he will bear the marks of having been in fire . . . The fire by which the architect is saved can only be understood of the fire of Purgatory . . . . . .

When he . . . speaks of him who has built on the foundation, wood, straw, stubble, he shows that he is not speaking of the fire which will precede the day of judgment, since by this will pass not only those who have built with these light materials, but also those who shall have built in gold, silver, etc. All this interpretation, besides that it agrees very well with the text, is also most authentic, as having been followed with common consent by the ancient Fathers. [31]



Retrieved from: http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2008/02/biblical-evidence-for-purgatory.html

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Lorenzo

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Re: Ara gid ba Porgatoryo?
« Reply #51 on: September 24, 2012, 05:17:54 AM »
The Lord answered, "Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom the master puts in charge of his servants to give them their food allowance at the proper time? It will be good for that servant whom the master finds doing so when he returns. I tell you the truth, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. But suppose the servant says to himself, 'My master is taking a long time in coming,' and he then begins to beat the menservants and maidservants and to eat and drink and get drunk. The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers. "That servant who knows his master's will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows. But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.”


Luke 12:42-48



---



Notice that there are not two but three categories of servants in this parable: 1) the “wise and faithful manager” who is rewarded (heaven); 2) the unfaithful servant who knows his master’s will but does not do it and who is “cut to pieces and assigned a place with the unbelievers (hell)l; and 3) the one “who does not know and does things deserving punishment.” This final servant is beaten with “few blows” (purgatory).



Taken from Catholic Answer Forum
Retrieved from: http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=368701

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Why Go To Purgatory?
« Reply #52 on: September 24, 2012, 05:22:52 AM »
Why Go To Purgatory?




Why would anyone go to purgatory? To be cleansed, for "nothing unclean shall enter [heaven]" (Rev. 21:27). Anyone who has not been completely freed of sin and its effects is, to some extent, "unclean." Through repentance he may have gained the grace needed to be worthy of heaven, which is to say, he has been forgiven and his soul is spiritually alive. But that’s not sufficient for gaining entrance into heaven. He needs to be cleansed completely.

Fundamentalists claim, as an article in Jimmy Swaggart’s magazine, The Evangelist, put it, that "Scripture clearly reveals that all the demands of divine justice on the sinner have been completely fulfilled in Jesus Christ. It also reveals that Christ has totally redeemed, or purchased back, that which was lost. The advocates of a purgatory (and the necessity of prayer for the dead) say, in effect, that the redemption of Christ was incomplete. . . . It has all been done for us by Jesus Christ, there is nothing to be added or done by man."

It is entirely correct to say that Christ accomplished all of our salvation for us on the cross. But that does not settle the question of how this redemption is applied to us. Scripture reveals that it is applied to us over the course of time through, among other things, the process of sanctification through which the Christian is made holy. Sanctification involves suffering (Rom. 5:3–5), and purgatory is the final stage of sanctification that some of us need to undergo before we enter heaven. Purgatory is the final phase of Christ’s applying to us the purifying redemption that he accomplished for us by his death on the cross.



Retrieved from:
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Re: Ara gid ba Porgatoryo?
« Reply #53 on: September 24, 2012, 05:25:04 AM »
No Contradiction





The Fundamentalist resistance to the biblical doctrine of purgatory presumes there is a contradiction between Christ’s redeeming us on the cross and the process by which we are sanctified. There isn’t. And a Fundamentalist cannot say that suffering in the final stage of sanctification conflicts with the sufficiency of Christ’s atonement without saying that suffering in the early stages of sanctification also presents a similar conflict. The Fundamentalist has it backward: Our suffering in sanctification does not take away from the cross. Rather, the cross produces our sanctification, which results in our suffering, because "[f]or the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant; later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness" (Heb. 12:11).





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Re: Ara gid ba Porgatoryo?
« Reply #54 on: September 24, 2012, 05:28:15 AM »
Nothing Unclean





Purgatory makes sense because there is a requirement that a soul not just be declared to be clean, but actually be clean, before a man may enter into eternal life. After all, if a guilty soul is merely "covered," if its sinful state still exists but is officially ignored, then it is still a guilty soul. It is still unclean.

Catholic theology takes seriously the notion that "nothing unclean shall enter heaven." From this it is inferred that a less than cleansed soul, even if "covered," remains a dirty soul and isn’t fit for heaven. It needs to be cleansed or "purged" of its remaining imperfections. The cleansing occurs in purgatory. Indeed, the necessity of the purging is taught in other passages of Scripture, such as 2 Thessalonians 2:13, which declares that God chose us "to be saved through sanctification by the Spirit." Sanctification is thus not an option, something that may or may not happen before one gets into heaven. It is an absolute requirement, as Hebrews 12:14 states that we must strive "for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord."




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Re: Ara gid ba Porgatoryo?
« Reply #55 on: September 24, 2012, 06:45:19 PM »
Wa koy hilig mogahin og higayon sa academic discussions nga sama niini, apan kon si To Bol moseryoso ani nga tema, sakay na lang pud ko.

Biyaan ta na lang ang prologue bahin sa paggamit sa mga pulong definitus ug implicatio (which, sorry folks, reminds me of coitus and fellatio), pero atoa ning ginagmayon kay bug-at jamo ang tema.

Kamo na lay pinsar...

Siryoso gid ko ni ya sang pamangkot ko sir hubagbohol, daw may ara gid porgatoryo sigon sang mga hambalhambal dini sang porom.




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Re: Ara gid ba Porgatoryo?
« Reply #56 on: September 24, 2012, 06:53:01 PM »
Siryoso gid ko ni ya sang pamangkot ko sir hubagbohol, daw may ara gid porgatoryo sigon sang mga hambalhambal dini sang porom.


Ngano gid man interesado ka sang tinuoray, To Bol, angdam ka na bang lumabang sang suba nga nagaulang sang kabuhi kag kamatay haw?

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Re: Ara gid ba Porgatoryo?
« Reply #57 on: September 24, 2012, 07:00:07 PM »
Ngano gid man interesado ka sang tinuoray, To Bol, angdam ka na bang lumabang sang suba nga nagaulang sang kabuhi kag kamatay haw?

sang ginahambal ko gid ya na malipay gid hang makabasang sang aton trid na porgatoryo.

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Re: Ara gid ba Porgatoryo?
« Reply #58 on: September 24, 2012, 07:03:40 PM »
sang ginahambal ko gid ya na malipay gid hang makabasang sang aton trid na porgatoryo.

Hmm, indi gid tumitingsi si Sir FD haw...

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Re: Ara gid ba Porgatoryo?
« Reply #59 on: September 24, 2012, 09:54:20 PM »
Hmm, indi gid tumitingsi si Sir FD haw...
Kon ako ang Ginoo Pikoy, itambog gid ka sa purgatorya, may ara pa ko kalooy sa imo.

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Re: Ara gid ba Porgatoryo?
« Reply #60 on: September 24, 2012, 10:01:17 PM »
Kon ako ang Ginoo Pikoy, itambog gid ka sa purgatorya, may ara pa ko kalooy sa imo.

wuhuhuhh...ajaw pod padre oi..buotan bya kog ma2log.. ;D ;D

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Re: Ara gid ba Porgatoryo?
« Reply #61 on: September 25, 2012, 01:03:00 AM »
double punishment man ang imong maagoman ani, piks.  si hubag ang nakamatikod nga wa magtingsi si sir fd, ikaw ang itambog sa purgatoryo.  unsa man ning imo, the supreme sacrifice? ;D

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Re: Ara gid ba Porgatoryo?
« Reply #62 on: September 26, 2012, 04:08:41 PM »
double punishment man ang imong maagoman ani, piks.  si hubag ang nakamatikod nga wa magtingsi si sir fd, ikaw ang itambog sa purgatoryo.  unsa man ning imo, the supreme sacrifice? ;D

Bwahaha! Sakto baya, kay si Bay Piks may midepensa sa concept of purgatory. Aw, naay uban, pero basin bug-at jamo, di maalsa mao nga di matambog...

;D

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Re: Ara gid ba Porgatoryo?
« Reply #63 on: September 26, 2012, 04:22:12 PM »
double punishment man ang imong maagoman ani, piks.  si hubag ang nakamatikod nga wa magtingsi si sir fd, ikaw ang itambog sa purgatoryo.  unsa man ning imo, the supreme sacrifice? ;D

hehe..maulagi tawn ms isle oi.. :D :D

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Re: Ara gid ba Porgatoryo?
« Reply #64 on: September 26, 2012, 09:25:24 PM »
Kon duna may empirno, kinsa may nagbantay didto basin og naay molayat paingon sa langit.? Didto sa langit , tua ang mga angeles, si Kristo og ang Amahan. Dito sa imperno tua pod si Lucifer ug si Satanas.

KInsay kaha ang ilang pangulo didto. Wa kaha sila naghantak didto? Wa kahay maldito didto? basin ug ituklod ka aron mahulog sa imperno.

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Re: Ara gid ba Porgatoryo?
« Reply #65 on: September 26, 2012, 10:30:30 PM »
para nila ang langit ug impyerno deli na lugar, ang atong nakita sa taas mau kana ang kawanangan, kay wapay niadto ug nibalik aron sa pag ingun nga naa na siya. ang langit ug impyerno nagpuyo gayod kana sa atong tagsa tagsa nga pagkakita kung anaa kanimo ang kamaayo, kamapailobon ug  mahadlukon sa tanang salaud dinhi sa yuta kanimo anaa ang langit ug nagpuyo diha sa imong kasing2x ang Ginoo mau nga inig ka wa sa tawo dinhi sa yuta limpyo ug malinawon ang iyang kalag hangtud sa hangtud,, pero kung ikaw usa ka tawong salbahis, hakog ug deli mahadlok sa mga salaud dinhi sa yuta ang imong kasing2x  gubot pa sa lukot ug nagdilaab sa kainit  nga mau ang impyerno ug diha anaa gayud nagapuyo si lucifer mau nga ig kawa nimo sa yuta ang imong kalag naghigwaus, ganiwang ug  gubot hangtud sa hangtud., :D :D


mau nga be kind to others, blessed be God and mary to all of us


ug mau ni ang ilang pagtuo way makabuot wanay daghang debate kay kapoy na..:D :D


off na sad c u sa balay guys..heheh

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Re: Ara gid ba Porgatoryo?
« Reply #66 on: September 26, 2012, 10:41:07 PM »
Kon duna may empirno, kinsa may nagbantay didto basin og naay molayat paingon sa langit.? Didto sa langit , tua ang mga angeles, si Kristo og ang Amahan. Dito sa imperno tua pod si Lucifer ug si Satanas.

KInsay kaha ang ilang pangulo didto. Wa kaha sila naghantak didto? Wa kahay maldito didto? basin ug ituklod ka aron mahulog sa imperno.


Paul mentions this in 1 Corinthians 3:13-15: "Each man's work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work, which any man has built on the foundation, survives, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire."

Paul's thought calls to mind the image of God as the refiner's fire and fuller's soap mentioned in Malachi 3:2. Fuller's soap removed stains from clothing. A refiners fire was an oven of intense heat where precious metals were placed in order to purify them of their corrosion and dross. In the same way, purgatory is when a soul is immersed into the fire of God's love and lifted out of the residue of its imperfections.




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Re: Ara gid ba Porgatoryo?
« Reply #67 on: September 26, 2012, 11:20:37 PM »
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Re: Ara gid ba Porgatoryo?
« Reply #68 on: September 27, 2012, 05:34:34 AM »
pero kung ikaw usa ka tawong salbahis, hakog ug deli mahadlok sa mga salaud dinhi sa yuta ang imong kasing2x  gubot pa sa lukot ug nagdilaab sa kainit  nga mau ang impyerno

Hala! Kinsa may imong gipatamaan ani, Bay Piks? ::)

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Re: Ara gid ba Porgatoryo?
« Reply #69 on: September 27, 2012, 01:15:19 PM »
Hala! Kinsa may imong gipatamaan ani, Bay Piks? ::)

bato2x sa kawanangan ang maigo kagay..heheh..

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Re: Ara gid ba Porgatoryo?
« Reply #70 on: September 27, 2012, 01:39:48 PM »
bato2x sa kawanangan ang maigo kagay..heheh..

Hahahahaha. Kagay jud! ;D

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Re: Ara gid ba Porgatoryo?
« Reply #71 on: September 27, 2012, 01:43:52 PM »
duda na hinoon kog ex-priest ni si pikoy da.  si lorenz is priest-to-be, si fr chic is priest-now-and-forever.  hubag and bugsay are never-been-priest-and-never-will-be.  si bai tigs?  aw, seminarista.  kompleto man diay ning tbland. ;D

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Re: Ara gid ba Porgatoryo?
« Reply #72 on: September 27, 2012, 01:48:03 PM »
Kon duna may empirno, kinsa may nagbantay didto basin og naay molayat paingon sa langit.? Didto sa langit , tua ang mga angeles, si Kristo og ang Amahan. Dito sa imperno tua pod si Lucifer ug si Satanas.

KInsay kaha ang ilang pangulo didto. Wa kaha sila naghantak didto? Wa kahay maldito didto? basin ug ituklod ka aron mahulog sa imperno.

hinoon, kun mag-abot si sir fd ug pikoy sa langit, and chances are they would, one day in the very far future, gawas nga arang paghudyaka sa kalangitan ug sa mga angheles, morag madamgo na nako kun kinsay motukmod ug kinsay itukmod. ;D   

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Re: Ara gid ba Porgatoryo?
« Reply #73 on: September 27, 2012, 01:52:05 PM »
duda na hinoon kog ex-priest ni si pikoy da.  si lorenz is priest-to-be, si fr chic is priest-now-and-forever.  hubag and bugsay are never-been-priest-and-never-will-be.  si bai tigs?  aw, seminarista.  kompleto man diay ning tbland. ;D

uyyy....ajaw usa isalikway ang mg aposibilidad, way seguro's chorus ni'ng amoa'ng bai Hubag....ulo lang daan, obispohonon na.. ;D


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Re: Ara gid ba Porgatoryo?
« Reply #74 on: September 27, 2012, 01:54:14 PM »
duda na hinoon kog ex-priest ni si pikoy da.  si lorenz is priest-to-be, si fr chic is priest-now-and-forever.  hubag and bugsay are never-been-priest-and-never-will-be.  si bai tigs?  aw, seminarista.  kompleto man diay ning tbland. ;D


hhmmm... naa pod ba kaha'y possibility nga madre ta? hehehehe

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Re: Ara gid ba Porgatoryo?
« Reply #75 on: September 27, 2012, 02:43:05 PM »
uyyy....ajaw usa isalikway ang mg aposibilidad, way seguro's chorus ni'ng amoa'ng bai Hubag....ulo lang daan, obispohonon na.. ;D


huh?  ing-ani? ;D

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Re: Ara gid ba Porgatoryo?
« Reply #76 on: September 27, 2012, 02:43:45 PM »

hhmmm... naa pod ba kaha'y possibility nga madre ta? hehehehe

madre de cacao. ;D

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Re: Ara gid ba Porgatoryo?
« Reply #77 on: September 27, 2012, 02:45:11 PM »
or dili ba kaha madre de agua.. ;D ;D

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Re: Ara gid ba Porgatoryo?
« Reply #78 on: September 27, 2012, 02:52:55 PM »
Unya sa panahon sa paghukom, Revelation 20:15,  Ug kon ang ngalan ni bisan kinsa dili makaplagan sa basahon sa kinabuhi, siya itambog sa linaw ng kalayo sa imperno. Duha lang ka destinasyon ang padulngan sa mga kalag, ang nakita sa lista adto sa langit. Unsa may basihan kon kinsa ang moadto sa purgatoryo. Wala. Mabaw kaayo nga pagtulun-an, dili Biblical, kay walay verse nga magpamatuod.

i beg your pardon, sir fd.  dili man tingali mabaw ang usa ka pagtulon-an tungod lang kay ang usa ka tawo di motuo.  besides, the bible was never there for readers to take literally.  if it were so and we ourselves must take it literally, sama sa imong giingon nga lista, kun akong tiwasan ang pagka-literal, nganong wa may verse nga nagpamatuod kun unsay gilistahan, spring notebook ba o yellow pad? 

ikaduha, way verse nga nagpamatuod nga naay nasod nga pilipinhon.  gapasabot ba na nga mabaw ang pagtulon-an kabahin sa pilipinas?  worse, wa atong mga ngan sa bibliya.  ang ipasabot ba ana nga neither here nor there ta sa panahon sa paghukom? 

faith in a divine being and the many ways of joining him at the end of our days has many nuances.  more often than not, it is more experiential and personal, as salvation should be, rather than a literal one.  the bible as the book of books is basis enough for our faith.  the churches or the different religious denominations that we adhere to are our guide.  nothing is ever literal. 

the real faithful i presume will never claim that one's personal belief is better than the other.  and that's beside the fact that all christian religious denominations can quote passages from the bible to support their specific beliefs, hands down, as can be seen in the posts of this thread.  it becomes a neverending story thus. 

but we can continue to learn from each other, if we may, in spite of or because of our personal beliefs and our religious denominations.  wa lay mas mabaw ug mas lawom.

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Re: Ara gid ba Porgatoryo?
« Reply #79 on: September 27, 2012, 02:54:36 PM »
or dili ba kaha madre de agua.. ;D ;D

oh, no.  wa ko kaila ani.  sultihi ko, pleeease, mother water!

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Re: Ara gid ba Porgatoryo?
« Reply #80 on: September 27, 2012, 03:03:35 PM »
oh, no.  wa ko kaila ani.  sultihi ko, pleeease, mother water!


all i know ....this is a plant... mao ra hehehe

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Re: Ara gid ba Porgatoryo?
« Reply #81 on: September 27, 2012, 03:25:37 PM »
mao diay ni... daoy, wa pa man ko ani makakita.  dis-a man diay ko...



samot kalisod sa scientific name, trichantera gigantean

it's a hog feed!

The leaves of trichantera gigantean is a potential source of protein, varying from 18-22 percent in crude protein form from dry matter form and apparently most of this protein is real protein with good amino acid balance. Nutritional analysis (Rosales et al, 1989) showed that the leaves also contained: either extract, 2.8 percent; crude fiber, 13.4 percent; ash, 19.7 percent, moisture, 9.6 percent and NFE, 37 percent.(http://mboard.pcarrd.dost.gov.ph/)

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Re: Ara gid ba Porgatoryo?
« Reply #82 on: September 27, 2012, 05:24:41 PM »
faith in a divine being and the many ways of joining him at the end of our days has many nuances.  more often than not, it is more experiential and personal, as salvation should be, rather than a literal one.  the bible as the book of books is basis enough for our faith.  the churches or the different religious denominations that we adhere to are our guide.  nothing is ever literal. 

the real faithful i presume will never claim that one's personal belief is better than the other.  and that's beside the fact that all christian religious denominations can quote passages from the bible to support their specific beliefs, hands down, as can be seen in the posts of this thread.  it becomes a neverending story thus. 

but we can continue to learn from each other, if we may, in spite of or because of our personal beliefs and our religious denominations.  wa lay mas mabaw ug mas lawom.

Hmm, samot kalibog ang kutaw ni Botoy. Sori nga di ko kaapas sa pinsar ninyong pandits. Pero ang buot nimong ipaibot, posible diay nga legitimate ang Pastafarianism?

::)

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islander

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Re: Ara gid ba Porgatoryo?
« Reply #83 on: September 27, 2012, 05:50:56 PM »
lajo na ta jamo, if i may remind you, SPAMmer. ;D

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Re: Ara gid ba Porgatoryo?
« Reply #84 on: September 27, 2012, 05:53:53 PM »
Pastafarianism   
   
a new religion that worships Flying Spaghetti Monster, initially created to protest the Kansas State School Board's decision to teach "Intelligent Design" in schools.

Also known as the FSM cult

Codes of conduct:

# Prayers are ended with the word RAmen rather than Amen.

Benefits of conversion:

# Like the great noodles they worship, Flying Spaghetti Monsterists have flimsy moral standards.

# Promise of a stripper factory and a beer volcano in Heaven.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/

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islander

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Re: Ara gid ba Porgatoryo?
« Reply #85 on: September 27, 2012, 05:55:08 PM »
from the looks of it, morag 3 mo nga flying spaghetti monsterists dinhi, hehe. ;D

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Re: Ara gid ba Porgatoryo?
« Reply #86 on: September 27, 2012, 05:57:09 PM »
A rival faction [of Pastafarianism], based on SPAM (Spaghetti & Pulsar Activating Meatballs), has formed and is calling for a Holy War against FSM.  SPAMation claims to have the One True Letter to the Kansas School Board.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/

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Re: Ara gid ba Porgatoryo?
« Reply #87 on: September 27, 2012, 05:58:27 PM »
ari gid ba spaghetting pababa, pataas sang meatballs sang porgatoryo? ;D

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Re: Ara gid ba Porgatoryo?
« Reply #88 on: September 27, 2012, 10:54:15 PM »
duda na hinoon kog ex-priest ni si pikoy da.  si lorenz is priest-to-be, si fr chic is priest-now-and-forever.  hubag and bugsay are never-been-priest-and-never-will-be.  si bai tigs?  aw, seminarista.  kompleto man diay ning tbland. ;D

dearest isles,

simbako lang, mahadlok pod ko mo answer sa calling sa priesthood. mo hilak ahoang ginikanan og ahoang babycakes.

:P

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Re: Ara gid ba Porgatoryo?
« Reply #89 on: September 27, 2012, 10:55:28 PM »
is it possible for physicians to become priests?

(serious question lang ni ha...)

just want to know lang.

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Re: Ara gid ba Porgatoryo?
« Reply #90 on: September 27, 2012, 11:04:44 PM »
The doctrine of purgatory has been taught to Christians since the foundation of the Christian Church, its roots go back over 2,000 years. The doctrine of sola scriptura and sola fide, which is of a protestant foundation is quite new--only some 450 years.

Let us refer to the writings of St. Augustine the Great, an early Church Father:

"There is an ecclesiastical discipline, as the faithful know, when the names of the martyrs are read aloud in that place at the altar of God, where prayer is not offered for them. Prayer, however, is offered for other dead who are remembered. It is wrong to pray for a martyr, to whose prayers we ought ourselves be commended" (Sermons 159:1 [A.D. 411]).

"But by the prayers of the holy Church, and by the salvific sacrifice, and by the alms which are given for their spirits, there is no doubt that the dead are aided, that the Lord might deal more mercifully with them than their sins would deserve. The whole Church observes this practice which was handed down by the Fathers: that it prays for those who have died in the communion of the Body and Blood of Christ, when they are commemorated in their own place in the sacrifice itself; and the sacrifice is offered also in memory of them, on their behalf. If, then, works of mercy are celebrated for the sake of those who are being remembered, who would hesitate to recommend them, on whose behalf prayers to God are not offered in vain? It is not at all to be doubted that such prayers are of profit to the dead; but for such of them as lived before their death in a way that makes it possible for these things to be useful to them after death" (ibid., 172:2).

"Temporal punishments are suffered by some in this life only, by some after death, by some both here and hereafter, but all of them before that last and strictest judgment. But not all who suffer temporal punishments after death will come to eternal punishments, which are to follow after that judgment" (The City of God 21:13 [A.D. 419]).

"That there should be some fire even after this life is not incredible, and it can be inquired into and either be discovered or left hidden whether some of the faithful may be saved, some more slowly and some more quickly in the greater or lesser degree in which they loved the good things that perish, through a certain purgatorial fire" (Handbook on Faith, Hope, and Charity 18:69 [A.D. 421]).

"The time which interposes between the death of a man and the final resurrection holds souls in hidden retreats, accordingly as each is deserving of rest or of hardship, in view of what it merited when it was living in the flesh. Nor can it be denied that the souls of the dead find relief through the piety of their friends and relatives who are still alive, when the Sacrifice of the Mediator [Mass] is offered for them, or when alms are given in the Church. But these things are of profit to those who, when they were alive, merited that they might afterward be able to be helped by these things. There is a certain manner of living, neither so good that there is no need of these helps after death, nor yet so wicked that these helps are of no avail after death" (ibid., 29:109).



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Re: Ara gid ba Porgatoryo?
« Reply #91 on: September 27, 2012, 11:06:01 PM »
Another early Church Father, John Chrysostom, wrote:


"Let us help and commemorate them. If Job’s sons were purified by their father’s sacrifice [Job 1:5], why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them" (Homilies on First Corinthians 41:5 [A.D. 392]).

"Weep for those who die in their wealth and who with all their wealth prepared no consolation for their own souls, who had the power to wash away their sins and did not will to do it. Let us weep for them, let us assist them to the extent of our ability, let us think of some assistance for them, small as it may be, yet let us somehow assist them. But how, and in what way? By praying for them and by entreating others to pray for them, by constantly giving alms to the poor on their behalf. Not in vain was it decreed by the apostles that in the awesome mysteries remembrance should be made of the departed. They knew that here there was much gain for them, much benefit. When the entire people stands with hands uplifted, a priestly assembly, and that awesome sacrificial Victim is laid out, how, when we are calling upon God, should we not succeed in their defense? But this is done for those who have departed in the faith, while even the catechumens are not reckoned as worthy of this consolation, but are deprived of every means of assistance except one. And what is that? We may give alms to the poor on their behalf" (Homilies on Philippians 3:9–10 [A.D. 402]).

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Re: Ara gid ba Porgatoryo?
« Reply #92 on: September 27, 2012, 11:10:31 PM »
The Biblical Case for Purgatory




Purgatory is similar to several Biblical concepts (e.g. "Trinity") in that it is not explicitly named. It's attributes and nature are deduced from reading scripture and making logical conclusions. In this sense it can be easy to confuse the facts. But what does the Bible say? Let's take a look at scripture.

Purgatory is the effect of Christ's sufficiency.

    1. God is perfect Holiness. (Isaiah 6:3)

    2. We are called to that same Holiness. (Leviticus 19:2, 1 Peter 1:15, 1, 1:16)

    3. Nothing unclean can stand in the presence of the God or enter Heaven. (Ex. 33:18-20, Ps. 15:1, 66:18, Heb. 12:14, Eph. 5:3, 5:25-2, Apocalypse 21:27)

    4. Our impurities can be cleansed. This purification and final sanctification must happen before we enter Heaven. (Hebrews 12:29, 12:6, 12:10, Isaiah 6:5-7)

    5. Remaining venial sins can be forgiven in the next world. (Matthew 12:32)

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Re: Ara gid ba Porgatoryo?
« Reply #93 on: September 27, 2012, 11:11:30 PM »
1. God is revealed as perfect interior holiness



And they cried one to another, and said: Holy, holy, holy, the Lord God of hosts, all the earth is full of his glory.
Isaiah 6:3

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Re: Ara gid ba Porgatoryo?
« Reply #94 on: September 27, 2012, 11:12:00 PM »
2. We are called to that same holiness

Leviticus 19:2
Speak to all the congregation of the children of Israel. And thou shalt say to them: Be ye holy, because I the Lord your God am holy.

1 Peter 1:15
But according to him that hath called you, who is holy, be you also in all manner of conversation holy:

1 Peter 1:16
Because it is written: You shall be holy, for I am holy.

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Re: Ara gid ba Porgatoryo?
« Reply #95 on: September 27, 2012, 11:13:04 PM »
3. Who can stand in the face of the holiness of God?



Exodus 33:18
And he said: Shew me thy glory.

Exodus 33:19
He answered: I will shew thee all good, and I will proclaim in the name of the Lord before thee: and I will have mercy on whom I will, and I will be merciful to whom it shall please me.

Exodus 33:20
And again he said: Thou canst not see my face: for man shall not see me, and live.

Psalms 15:1
A psalm for David. Lord, who shall dwell in thy tabernacle? or who shall rest in thy holy hill?

Psalms 66:18
If I have looked at iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me.

Hebrews 12:14
Follow peace with all men and holiness: without which no man shall see God.

Ephesians 5:3
But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not so much as be named among you, as becometh saints:

Ephesians 5:25
Husbands, love your wives, as Christ also loved the church and delivered himself up for it:

Ephesians 5:26
That he might sanctify it, cleansing it by the laver of water in the word of life:

Ephesians 5:27
That he might present it to himself, a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

Apocalypse 21:27
There shall not enter into it any thing defiled or that worketh abomination or maketh a lie: but they that are written in the book of life of the Lamb.

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Re: Ara gid ba Porgatoryo?
« Reply #96 on: September 27, 2012, 11:14:28 PM »
4. We are deprived of the vision of God because of our sinfulness. But there is a divine purging fire which can heal us.


Hebrews 12:29
For our God is a consuming fire.

Hebrews 12:6
For whom the Lord loveth he chastiseth: and he scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

Hebrews 12:10
And they indeed for a few days, according to their own pleasure, instructed us: but he, for our profit, that we might receive his sanctification.

Isaiah 6:5
And I said: Woe is me, because I have held my peace; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people that hath unclean lips, and I have seen with my eyes the King the Lord of hosts.

Isaiah 6:6
And one of the seraphims flew to me, and in his hand was a live coal, which he had taken with the tongs off the altar.

Isaiah 6:7
And he touched my mouth, and said: Behold this hath touched thy lips, and thy iniquities shall be taken away, and thy sin shall be cleansed.

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Re: Ara gid ba Porgatoryo?
« Reply #97 on: September 27, 2012, 11:16:09 PM »
5. Jesus implies that our sins can be forgiven in the next world.



Matthew 12:32
And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him neither in this world, nor in the world to come.

Scripture from the Greek Septuagint, the Old Testament of Christ, the Evangelists and Paul, and of the councils of Hippo and Carthage, affirm purgatory.

(Catholic and Orthodox Bibles include a larger Old Testament as did the Bible of Jesus' time. The Greek Text of the Bible used at this time is called the Septuagint.  This text was apart of scripture before Martin Luther mangled the Bible, and remained even in protestant Bibles well into the 19th Century. Some non Catholic, and non Orthodox Bibles still include them in the "Apocrypha" -- an incorrect name, which should be "Deuterocanon". )

2 Maccabees 12:42
And so betaking themselves to prayers, they besought him, that the sin which had been committed might be forgotten. But the most valiant Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves from sin, forasmuch as they saw before their eyes what had happened, because of the sins of those that were slain.

2 Maccabees 12:43
And making a gathering, he sent twelve thousand drachms of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection.

2 Maccabees 12:44
(For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead,)

2 Maccabees 12:45
And because he considered that they who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them.

2 Maccabees 12:46
It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.

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Re: Ara gid ba Porgatoryo?
« Reply #98 on: September 27, 2012, 11:20:46 PM »
Purgatory: Denial of Christ's Sufficiency?



Answer: NO!



This objection is based on a pair of erroneous presumptions: That progressive sanctification and suffering take away from Christ's work on Calvary and that the Church teaches that purgatory is work.

To address the second objection first, purgatory is not a place for those bad Catholics who didn't finish working their way to heaven while on earth. "For by grace you have been saved by faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God—not because of works, lest any man should boast" (Eph. 2:8-9). The purification that takes place in purgatory is purely a work of God's grace, since there is no chance for merit after death, and the judgment of each individual is based solely upon their earthly life. But regardless of where Christ purifies men, it is precisely because his sacrifice was sufficient that each believer can be perfected.

Though Christ paid the infinite debt of man's sins 2,000 years ago, the sanctification process in the life each Christian continues. In 1 Thessalonians 5:23, Paul tells the faithful, "May the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly; and may your spirit and soul and body be kept sound and blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." According to Scripture, sanctification is a thing of the past (1 Cor. 6:11), present (1 Thess. 4:3), and future (1 Thess. 5:23) in the Christian life.

This process often involves suffering, as Paul indicates: "Let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus as the pioneer and perfecter of our faith, for the joy that was set before him, endured the cross… 'My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, nor lose courage when you are punished by him. For the Lord disciplines whom he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives. [God] disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant; later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it" (Heb. 12:1-12).

Therefore, the presence of suffering does not detract from Christ's sacrifice. In fact, there is only one mention in all of Scripture of something "lacking in Christ's afflictions," and that missing link is the suffering of his mystical body, the Church (Col. 1:24).

In the Old Testament, God forgave David, but still took the life of his son:

2 Samuel 12:3
But the poor man had nothing at all but one little ewe lamb, which he had bought and nourished up, and which had grown up in his house together with his children, eating of his bread, and drinking of his cup, and sleeping in his bosom: and it was unto him as a daughter.

2 Samuel 12:4
And when a certain stranger was come to the rich man, he spared to take of his own sheep and oxen, to make a feast for that stranger, who was come to him, but took the poor man's ewe, and dressed it for the man that was come to him.

In the New Testament, Christ reiterates this principle:

St. Matthew 5:25
Be at agreement with thy adversary betimes, whilst thou art in the way with him: lest perhaps the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.

St. Matthew 5:26
Amen I say to thee, thou shalt not go out from thence till thou repay the last farthing.

Women still experience the temporal punishment of birth pains:

Genesis 3:16
To the woman also he said: I will multiply thy sorrows, and thy conceptions: in sorrow shalt thou bring forth children, and thou shalt be under thy husband's power, and he shall have dominion over thee.

Even though Christ paid the infinite debt of man's original sin:

Romans 5:12
Wherefore as by one man sin entered into this world and by sin death: and so death passed upon all men, in whom all have sinned.

Romans 5:13
For until the law sin was in the world: but sin was not imputed, when the law was not.

Romans 5:14
But death reigned from Adam unto Moses, even over them also who have not sinned, after the similitude of the transgression of Adam, who is a figure of him who was to come.

Romans 5:15
But not as the offence, so also the gift. For if by the offence of one, many died: much more the grace of God and the gift, by the grace of one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

Romans 5:16
And not as it was by one sin, so also is the gift. For judgment indeed was by one unto condemnation: but grace is of many offences unto justification.

Romans 5:17
For if by one man's offence death reigned through one; much more they who receive abundance of grace and of the gift and of justice shall reign in life through one, Jesus Christ.

Romans 5:18
Therefore, as by the offence of one, unto all men to condemnation: so also by the justice of one, unto all men to justification of life.

Romans 5:19
For as by the disobedience of one man, many were made sinners: so also by the obedience of one, many shall be made just.

Romans 5:20
Now the law entered in that sin might abound. And where sin abounded, grace did more abound.

Romans 5:21
That as sin hath reigned to death: so also grace might reign by justice unto life everlasting, through Jesus Christ our Lord.



CONCLUSION

The sufficiency of Christ's sacrifice is not lessened by the fact that God's work of perfecting his children is a process that often involves suffering and even temporal punishment.

It is all a part of God’s promise made through Paul:

1 Corinthians 3:15
If any mans work burn, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.

Philippians 1:6
Being confident of this very thing: that he who hath begun a good work in you will perfect it unto the day of Christ Jesus.



Reference:
https://sites.google.com/site/apostolicapologetics/


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Re: Ara gid ba Porgatoryo?
« Reply #99 on: September 28, 2012, 12:09:32 AM »
uyyy....ajaw usa isalikway ang mg aposibilidad, way seguro's chorus ni'ng amoa'ng bai Hubag....ulo lang daan, obispohonon na.. ;D

basta lagi mogamit ug greek alphabet (βυγσαψ) adto gyod na padung sa latin pax vobiscum sunod.

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