MikeLigalig.com

This was a great scriptural source, Gener. Amen, brother.

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The Church teaches in basis and according to the purity of Apostolic Tradition. Not on the fleeting feelings of the times. Not on basis of individual interpretation, nay, The Gospel warns about that.

The Holy Mother the Church is the rock, built on the foundation of Peter. Built in the name of Christ, and is the light, by the Grace of God,  the constant in these turbulent and imprudent times.



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way asawahay ang mga pari - siguro apil nis ilang silot o pagsunod sa calbaryo sa atong Ginoo.

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Buwad,... please your opinion on this debate or act as the moderator.

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way asawa, silot, calbaryo = kinsa na may ganahan moalagad ana. wa pa gani makasugod og serbisyo...opaw nas "kasakit" ang pari..LOL..

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it's only a matter of right time, right place and right people lorenz. the church has been always like that...slow and reactive, not because an issue is fleeting or not, but because SHE addresses the issue with wisdom. like for example, it took time for Her to accept Heliocentric System of Copernicus and of Galileo's . likewise, when heresies came out, the Church formulated doctrines to foil them...or anathemize them. there were social injustices in Latin America, thus the idea of social justice, of Basic Ecclesial Communities is born. 1960s, need for renewal of the church and of going back to the basic/root, so the Vatican-II was called. etc. etc.
there's no telling when can the church move its way on this matter. but i believe God would not protest if law/s(like celibacy) be changed in the Church if it is, when it is time, only for the spiritual well-being and service of His people. the Church is called "to serve, not to be served." that is Wisdom.

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"Then again, no one can predict for certainty. Perhaps, or maybe not. Only History will decide.

Until then, I have faith in whatever decision the Holy The Mother Church decides."

Yes! Because Ecclesia Semper Reformanda...

 let's always have faith and never be afraid of renewal if we believe the Spirit lives in US, the Church.

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Hala jod MsDaBins, awata jod na sila!!! We know they are just expressing their own side using their own points of view. So there's the seemingly never ending argument debatable since time immemorial and we still expect this argument to be carried further 'till the next generations to come. Only time will tell the truth with certainty when we all pass away from this earth. For now, we have to accept the fact there are three sides of an argumentation, one is the positive side, the other is the negative side, and the side which is often disregarded is the right side not the left. Now, question which side do you side? Hmmmm....

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Ako...beside.

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hahaha! tinuod ka linds! mga huso pa ang ngipon di gyud ma sulbad ni!

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Oi lami sab nang imong choice no Glace...duha na ta. Labi nag ang akong dog si Karolina Kurkova! Asus, ginoong dagko ug gagmay...tabang!

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There converge upon this liturgical purity a number of themes: perhaps the most insistent is taken from First Corinthians where, in a discussion of the mutual rights of husband and wife, Paul counsels his readers:

      Do not refuse one another except perhaps by agreement for a season, that you may devote yourselves to prayer; but then come together again, lest Satan tempt you through lack of self-control. I say this by way of concession, not of command. I wish that all were as I myself am. (I Cor 7:5-7)

There can be little doubt of Paul's conviction of the close relationship between prayer as such and a purity that is understood as abstention from conjugal intercourse. The entire seventh chapter of I Corinthians is redolent of this theme. Paul, with the patristic tradition relying upon him, sees this abstention to be the necessary condition for the freedom and simplicity which alone can attain the intimacy with God at once befitting and demanded of the priest by reason of his continual intercession, in persona Christi, for his flock. The patristic meditation upon I Corinthians 7 consequently linked success in prayer, particularly in the intercessory prayer of the priest, to "purity;" the Latin is pudicitia, which translates also as chastity: in the case at hand, it is a chastity which would be violated by the use of marriage.  Cochini has pointed out that this liturgical "purity," in its application to those who serve at the altar, is the only Old Testament liturgical "cleanliness" of which the apostolic tradition has retained an analogue; all the other demands made by the Old Law concerning the means for attaining liturgical purity — bathing, for example — were simply dropped. One hears much nowadays in deprecation of priestly celibacy as largely rooted in the obsolete law requiring ritual cleanliness in the Levitical priest when offering sacrifice;  such analyses leave unaccountable the dismissal of such uncleanliness as the Old Testament held to be caused, e.g., by any physical contact with a cadaver.

Further, Cochini has shown that this Old Testament requirement of temporary continence for Levites was subsumed, in the patristic tradition, to a hermeneutic derived from the figura-veritas relation of the Old Testament to the New.  De Lubac has shown this relation to be normative for the patristic hermeneutic.  The relation is historical: it is given concretely in the Eucharistic transcendence of the many sacrifices of the Old Law. This is to say that the patristic hermeneutic is inescapably a Eucharistic hermeneutic, whose ground is the liturgical consciousness of the free Eucharistic integration of the Old Covenant, the New Covenant, and the Kingdom of God into the history of our salvation in Christ. Consequently the patristic interpretation of such scriptural passages as I Cor 7:5-7 cannot but refer back to and in fact be simultaneous with the traditio which is the Church's central act of worship, the offering in the person of Christ of the Eucharistic sacrifice, whose original celebration was apostolic.

Thus the ritual cleanliness, the continence, required for the exercise of the Levitical priesthood was understood by the Fathers to be simply a foreshadowing of the full reality of the liturgical purity as it is fulfilled in Christ, the High Priest of the New and more perfect Covenant, and which is immediately implicit in those who are ordained to offer his One Sacrifice, because from the beginning they have been authorized to offer it, and have done so, only in his person, and by his authority.  As the service of sacrificial intercession by the Levitical priesthood at the altar of the sacrifices of the Old Law was temporary, so also was the continence required of the Levite; as the Catholic priest offers continually the One Sacrifice of the one High Priest in persona Christi, so also is a continual continence required of his Eucharistic sacrificial intercession. This is not a mere speculative conclusion nor mere conformity to law: it is an integrating element of the self-awareness of the priest in the full realization of his orders, in the identification with the Christ that is explicit and effective in the words of consecration: "This is my Body," "This is my Blood."

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Absolutely. Through Christ, Our Lord.

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Dong Enzo, sa akong pagsabot sa imong side morag ni pabor ka nga pwede magminyo ang pari kon gusto niya. Basta, during the seasons of prayer, he has to devote himself to prayers. Then assumes his family obligation after. Sukwahi kini sa proverbial saying nga, "You cannot serve two masters at a time...". Tinood nga dili jod ni mahimo sa mga pari bisan kanatong tanan. Pero kon atong i-modify kana with a positive thinking ug himoong, "You can serve two masters one at a time..." pwede. It's just a matter of tasking, diba? I can clip you the quotes of this particular argument in your previous posting should you like to expound further.

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Sir Layman,

Ang stance nako ani is with the Holy Roman Catholic Church and in communion with the 2nd Lateran Council edict of the 12th century.

I am conservative in this aspect, sir. The Great Reformation in the 16th and 17th centuries addressed the grievances of the Church, and what was clear in ecclesiastic rite was the continuation of the celibacy of the Royal Priesthood.

So, since it was the Holy Roman Catholic Church who compiled the Holy Bible, and with infallible authority to compile the Holy Book itself, by the Grace of God, then I assure my stance with that of the Catholic Church.


Yours,

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"a one christian is not a christian." 

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what do you think of that, graze? hehehe. (it;s not for personal attack...haha)

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 Catholic Church does not represent Christian Faith?

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It is often said by Christian scholars that the Catholic church does not represent the christian faith or the bible. Can someone tell me why this is the case?


 
I found this:

"Since we are searching for the historical Jesus, I notice that on this site and in many peoples opinions, there is a strong misunderstanding about Catholicism/christianity. The church which Jesus claims He was going to build (Spiritually in Matt. 16:18-21) began at Pentacost around 33a.d.. This church thrived and grew by the day. The church's which had been planted continued to grow as the Apostle taught them. However the Roman Empire began to see christianity first as a harmless jewish cult and then as a possible enemy that needed to be dealt with. A series of persecutions began which also resulted in the deaths of Peter and Paul the apostles and eventually all the Apostles were dead except John who was banished to the island of Patmos where he wrote the book of Revelation. Jesus had already stated in advance in 33a.d. that John would live on to do a special work for Him (John 21:22-here Jesus says He will come back to deal with John which was fulfilled when Jesus gave to John the book of Revelation). Eventually all the Apostles died and the early church fathers continued on. Rome continued to persecute the true christian church which included the horrible death of being fed to the lions in the roman coliseum. The persecution of the church failed however because christians were so strong in their belief that Roman citizens saw that they were willing to die for their faith and many would become converted. The Roman Empire under Constantine eventually decided to legalize christianity in 450a.d. and even make it the state church. However, getting Roman Pagans to go along with this was not easy. Constantine was adamant to make this work because he was convinced he had seen a sign in the sky which was a cross saying "under this sign conquer". The Roman Empire decided to merge its religious pagan idol system with christianity and join them into one church. The Roman Catholic Church. The traditon of celebrating Tammuz 25 of dec birthday was now given to Jesus who was never born on dec 25th. All the pagan idols were eventually given the names of catholic saints. The church grew to enormous proportions and when the political Empire of Rome began its decline, the church became even stronger. During this time, there were remnants and pockets of true christians who resisted this great compromise. This time period is known as the Dark Ages where the catholic church stifled science by saying the earth was flat even though scientists and the Old Testament clearly stated it was circular (Isaiah 40:22 written around 700b.c). The Catholic church began to take all bibles and keep them from the people not wanting them to read the bible. Therefore this merger of paganism and christianity continues to this day. The Protestant Reformation however broke the chains of Rome and lead to a resurgence of the true gospel which is salvation by grace through faith plus nothing. This is where we stand today. Therefore as far as the inquisition, crusades , etc, these were not christians who did this, it was lead by the Roman Catholic church. I even heard one person on this site say Hitler was a christian. He was not a christian, he was a pagan member of the Thule Society which was an occult group who believed in Pan-Germanic paganism which is where the aryan thing came from as well as from theosophy which is a complicated occult system made up of hinduism/buddhism/kabbalah mixed with science and evolution. Hitler did idolize the Catholic church especially the way the Jesuits were set up and he used them as a model for his dreaded SS. It is possible to be saved in the Catholic church but there obstacles because the catholic church teaches many things one must do to be saved which conflicts with what the bible says in Ephesians 2:8-9."

Source link.

"The bible is sufficient to establish that the RCC does not represent the Bible. Incidently, I grew up in the Catholic church and went to catholic school. I have been baptized, confirmed, etc. I know a little something about the RCC. I have been to the vatican many times with my family which is an Italian family. I can assure you that catholicism is not nor has it ever been bible based. I mean no offense to catholics. My points deal with catholic teachings and tradition not to catholics who love Jesus etc. But the cathoic church teaches works are necessary for salvation and this goes against the bible. The bible says anyone who adds to the gospel is to be accursed. This warning applies to the catholic church because it adds works to a gospel which the bible teaches is freely given and must be freely received. The bottom line is Martin Luther was correct.

Also, in Matthew 16 Jesus handed the keys of the Kingdom over to His church. This church began at pentecost. Not in 311ad.

I know that some catholics would disagree. I know this because I was once one. I went to catholic school for 8 years. I was never given a bible. This is common practice in catholicism. In catholic mass, there is no bible used, just quotations and bits and pieces to make sure that the conflicts between catholicism and christianity are never found out. Many priests like Martin Luther who read their bibles realized these conflicts and were forced to make the decision to leave the catholic church. Bottom line, catholicm became legal in Rome in 311 ad while christianity began in 33 ad. After this fact, what else is there really to debate?"



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 The Roman Catholic "Church" is Not Christian
       Practically all precepts of the Roman Catholic religion contradict the Bible repeatedly. It is the largest cult in the world and most preachers will not openly say so because it is so large. For Catholics who read this, please remember this: the person that tells you the truth is the one that cares.

For a glimpse of the atrocities committed by the Roman Catholic religion, do a net search on the Inquisition or the Crusades. During the Inquisition, the Catholic religion killed millions. Why? Primarily to suppress any and all opposition to the pope. Side "benefits" included taking the material wealth of its victims and showing the pope's power. The Catholic Inquisitors tortured, crippled, burned, and imprisoned millions of people. Whatever happened to love your enemies? (Matthew 5:44)

Before we get to specific problems with Catholic doctrine, let's review how this bloodthirsty organization treated a man who simply wanted to get the Bible into the hands of the common people. In the late 1300s John Wycliffe translated the scriptures from the Latin Vulgate. Some 40 odd years after his death, the Catholic religion dug up his bones and burned them calling him an arch-heretick. In the 1500's William Tyndale sought to translate the Bible into the language of the common people, English. He could not gain approval from the Catholic religion so he worked as an outlaw on the run in Europe, translating the Bible. He was eventually captured, condemned and executed in 1536. It is because of people like these men, Tyndale and Wycliffe, that we have the scriptures today. If the Catholic religion had its way, we'd still be in ignorance about the Bible and enslaved to the pope. Time fails me here to tell of other martyrs like John Hus, John Rogers, etc. who were killed by popish persons.

I'll list the catholic tradition first and then what the Bible has to say about the matter.

 

* * * *

CATHOLIC TRADITION - Call priests father, e.g., Father McKinley.

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS -

Matthew 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

* * * *

CATHOLIC TRADITION - Forbidding the priesthood to marry.

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS -

1) It is devilish to forbid God's people to marry when He has given marriage to be received with thanksgiving.

1 Timothy
4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
4:3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

2) Peter was married (remember the pope is supposedly continuing the apostolic line through Peter).

Matthew
8:14 And when Jesus was come into Peter's house, he saw his wife's mother laid, and sick of a fever.

Mark
1:30 But Simon's wife's mother lay sick of a fever, and anon they tell him of her.

Luke
4:38 And he arose out of the synagogue, and entered into Simon's house. And Simon's wife's mother was taken with a great fever; and they besought him for her.

3) Paul, a great apostle, remained single; however he made it very clear that he could marry if he wanted to.

1 Corinthians
9:5 Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and as the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas?

* * * *

CATHOLIC TRADITION - Mary never had other children after the Lord Jesus. A perpetual virgin.

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS - Mary and Joseph indeed had children. They were the Lord's half brothers and sisters for their father was Joseph and mother was Mary.

Matthew
13:55 Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?
13:56 And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things?

Mark
6:3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.

* * * *

CATHOLIC TRADITION - Mary is the queen of heaven.

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS - Worshipping the queen of heaven (which is not the Mary of the Bible) is worshipping another god and it provokes the Lord to anger.

Jeremiah
7:17 Seest thou not what they do in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem?
7:18 The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.
7:19 Do they provoke me to anger? saith the LORD: do they not provoke themselves to the confusion of their own faces?
 

* * * *

CATHOLIC TRADITION - Mary is the mother of God.

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS - Mary is the mother of the earthly Jesus, not God. Jesus pre- existed from everlasting as God (see John 1:1). When He came to redeem mankind, He laid aside His glory and was made like unto sinful man so that He could take our punishment (Hebrew 2:9). God has no mother. He has lived from everlasting which means He had no beginning.

Isaiah
43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. [If Mary gave birth to God, she'd be God.]

Psalm
93:2 Thy throne is established of old: thou art from everlasting.

Micah
5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler [Jesus] in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

Philippians
2:6 Who [Jesus], being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

* * * *

CATHOLIC TRADITION - Pope called Holy Father.

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS - The term Holy Father is only found one time in the entire Bible. It was when Jesus prayed before He and His disciples went to the garden of Gethsemane. He referred to God the Father as Holy Father. It is blasphemy to call a man by God's name

John
17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

* * * *

CATHOLIC TRADITION - Purgatory, nuns, popes.

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS - None of these is mentioned in the Bible. It is a sin to add to the Bible.

Proverbs
30:6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

The pope is a man who takes upon himself honor which belongs to no human being. Even the very name by which he allows himself to be called (Holy Father) is highly presumptuous and blasphemous (see above).

One does not need the pope to determine what God's will is. The Bible says that God has given the Holy Ghost to each believer and that He (the Holy Ghost) guides and leads us into all truth. All a believer needs is the Bible and the Holy Ghost to know the will of the Lord. Popery has been treacherous, but worse, each pope has been the blind leading the blind. Jesus said that both will fall into the ditch. Catholics, come out of this system that cannot save and know Jesus for youself, intimate and up-close.

NOTE: Purgatory is supposedly a place where a person is purified of sins--even popes supposedly go there. The Bible says that Jesus Christ is the one that purifies us of our sins. Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus.... When a person dies their eternal home is sealed--heaven or hell--no in between. Hebrews 9:27 ...it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment.

* * * *

CATHOLIC TRADITION - Venerating/worshipping images. Pope bows to statues of Mary, people worship the eucharist and have statues/candles in their homes and churches.

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS - It is idolatry to venerate images. We are not even supposed to make them.

Exodus
20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God...

* * * *

CATHOLIC TRADITION - The mass. Through transubstantiation, the wafer/host and the wine supposedly become the actual blood and body of Jesus Christ when the priest prays over them.

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS - Jesus died once for sins, never to be repeated. He sits on the right hand of God and does not reappear in the mass as a mass of blood and flesh.

Hebrews
10:12 But this man [Jesus], after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
10:13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
10:15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

John
19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

1 Corinthians
11:24 And when he [Jesus] had given thanks, he brake it [bread], and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
11:25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
11:26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come (not for the forgiveness of sins or to receive Jesus).

* * * *

CATHOLIC TRADITION - Saved, in part, by good works.

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS - Good works are the fruits that grow out of being saved. They do not make you saved. An apple does not make its tree an apple tree, it was already an apple tree before any apples appeared. When you see the apples; however, you know what kind of tree it is. If a person is saved, he will shew forth good works because he has the spirit of Christ in him. The good works don't make him saved only the blood of Jesus can do that.

I John
1:7b ...the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Acts 16:31b
...believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.

Romans
3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

What about James 2:20 "faith without works is dead"?

The kind of faith that saves is a faith that shows forth the works of God. Even devils believe in Jesus and tremble (James 2:19). Many people believe in Jesus but they won't follow Him. They have a faith, but not the kind that saves. If a person has true faith in Jesus, the Holy Ghost dwells in him and will cause good works will show forth in his life. The good works confirm the faith by which the person was saved. James 2:21-23 uses Abraham as an example. Abraham believed God so when God asked him to sacrifice his son Isaac, Abraham, out of his faith in God, offered up Isaac.

 

* * * *

CATHOLIC TRADITION - The church is founded on Peter.

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS - Jesus Christ is the foundation of the church. Peter was a man like you and me. Jesus called Peter Satan in Matthew 16:23 when Peter rebuked Jesus dying. When Cornelius tried to worship Peter, Peter responded, "Stand up; I myself also am a man." (Acts 10:26). The pope needs to remember Acts 10:26 when he has men bowing to him and kissing his hand like he is worthy of worship.

1 Corinthians
3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Matthew
21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected [Jesus], the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

* * * *

CATHOLIC TRADITION - Confessing sins to a priest. Petitioning saints and Mary.

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS - We are to confess our sins and needs to God alone.

I John
1:9 If we confess our sins, he [God] is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Matthew
6:9, 12 After this manner...pray ye: Our Father... forgive us....

1 Timothy
2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus [not Mary, not saints, not priests, not the pope];

I John 2:1, ...And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

* * * *

There are many other scriptures that could have been used here to testify against the doctrines of the catholic religion. There are also many other doctrines of the catholic religion which could have been refuted (e.g. the sacraments, receiving the Holy Ghost, salvation through the catholic religion, penance, rosary, etc.).

* * * *

The Catholic religion has a history of taking the money of poor widows in order to say masses for the dead (which do no good) and collecting the material possessions of nuns. In Italy, the heart of Roman Catholicism, there is an often used saying that goes, "Without money, they don't sing the mass." That is really pitiful on several fronts: (1) mass is blasphemous and people who trust in it are hell-bound (2) there's no such thing as purgatory and (3) the gift of God is without price.

Roman Catholicism today is probably the wealthiest government in the world. It owns a good share of America's hospitals and has healthy real estate interests. The bottom line is, if you want to get right with God, you have to go through His Son, Jesus Christ, not some religious organization. Prayerfully.

SOURCE


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It is within this topic. This  is my answer to Brod Lorenzo on page 11.

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