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Author Topic: Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?  (Read 13691 times)

ms da binsi

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Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?
« on: July 28, 2008, 11:10:03 AM »
Many believe that religious images help them to worship God. Is this view correct? How does God feel about the matter?



P.s. I just got this article today and find it very interesting to talk about....

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Lorenzo

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Re: Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?
« Reply #1 on: July 28, 2008, 11:16:56 AM »
 Catholics agree that Jesus is the sole mediator between God and man, but that in no way makes prayer to the saints useless or wrong.

Many times one finds the New Testament recommending intercessory prayer (cf. Col 1:9; 2 Thes 1:11; 2 Thes 3:1; Jas 5:16), and very few Christians seem to have a problem with seeking the prayers of a fellow believer. A difficulty appears to emerge only when that believer has left this earth. But what difference should that make to one who affirms the resurrection of the dead? After all, we read that all are alive in Christ (cf. 1 Cor 15:22).

To recap, then, Jesus Christ is the sole mediator between God and man. No other person in heaven or on earth can take His place. The role of Mary or any other saint is to lead the believer to Christ. This subordinate form of mediation derives its meaning and efficacy from the Lord Himself and is not something the saints possess on their own.

Intercessory prayer is a powerful expression of the beautiful doctrine of the Communion of Saints whereby the saints in heaven, the souls in purgatory, and the faithful on earth are involved and concerned with one another's eternal salvation. Intercessory prayer declares our love for one another in the Church, as well as our faith that the bonds to Christ and His Church forged in baptism cannot be dissolved by death.

--

 As pointed out above, the teaching of the Church is clear: Jesus Christ is the sole mediator between God and man. No other person in heaven or on earth can take His place. The role of Mary or any other saint is to lead the believer to Christ. This subordinate form of mediation derives its meaning and effectiveness from the Lord Himself and is not something the saints possess on their own. Therefore, it is important to distinguish between the adoration owed to the Persons of the Blessed Trinity and the veneration given to the saints.

Similarly, Catholics use medals and statues, but not as talismans or as objects of worship in violation of the First Commandment. Rather, these things are intended to be reminders or aids to devotion which focus one's attention on prayer and the practice of virtue. It would be a rare husband who did not carry in his wallet a photo of his wife and children, not because he worships the photo or his family, but because he loves his family and wishes to have a visual representation of them on his person. Nor have I ever heard a Fundamentalist take offense at the presence of statues of our country's heroes at national monuments. If the heroes of the nation can be so honored, why not the heroes of the Church? Catholics use sacred art in just this way, never fashioning "idols" for false worship.

Prayer to Mary (or to any of the other saints) is not an end in itself but is intended to be a means by which one is led to a deeper union with her Son. Classical spirituality even had a Latin maxim to illustrate the point: Ad Jesum per Mariam ("To Jesus through Mary"). True devotion to Mary never obscures the uniqueness of Christ because Catholics know that the only command of Mary recorded in the Scriptures is one that must be scrupulously obeyed: "Do whatever he [Jesus] tells you" (Jn 2:5).

In the final analysis, devotion to the saints can best be appreciated when one sees the saints in glory as the friends of God and fellow members of the household of faith. If our Fundamentalist friends are to understand this aspect of Catholic spirituality, that is probably the grounds which will make the most sense to them.

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musiclover0526

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Re: Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?
« Reply #2 on: July 28, 2008, 11:20:12 AM »

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ms da binsi

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Re: Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?
« Reply #3 on: July 28, 2008, 11:20:38 AM »
Dodong what about  Exodus 20:4, 5 that says...


"You must not make yourself a carved image or a form like anything that is in the heavens above or that is on the earth underneath or that is in the waters under the earth. You must not bow down to them nor be unduced to serve them, because I your God am a God exacting exclusive devotion."


"To no one else shal I give my own glory, neither my praise to graven images..."

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Re: Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?
« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2008, 11:21:29 AM »
morag kadungog ko ana nag kumbati og debate sa radio...

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Re: Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?
« Reply #5 on: July 28, 2008, 11:24:54 AM »
Dodong what about  Exodus 20:4, 5 that says...


"You must not make yourself a carved image or a form like anything that is in the heavens above or that is on the earth underneath or that is in the waters under the earth. You must not bow down to them nor be unduced to serve them, because I your God am a God exacting exclusive devotion."


"To no one else shal I give my own glory, neither my praise to graven images..."

This is one of the most common misconceptions about the Catholic faith. Many well-intentioned, God-loving Christians of various denominations have heard this mistruth from trusted but ignorant teachers over the years, or have read it in books that claim to “expose” what they believe to be the Catholic faith. Unfortunately, as with most misconceptions, these conclusions are drawn with little or no true understanding of the faith or of the practice, or the purpose in question.

Before I answer this question, I’d like to quote a wonderful man of God, the late Archbishop Fulton Sheen, who said, “There are not one hundred people in this world who hate Catholicism, but there are millions who hate what they mistakenly believe Catholicism to be.”

So, is worshipping a statue wrong? Yes. The Roman Catholic Church teaches that it is wrong, in line with the Sacred Scriptures as it states in Exodus 20:4-5, “You shall not carve idols for yourselves in the shape of anything in the sky above or on the earth below or in the waters beneath the earth; you shall not bow down before them or worship them”.

That being said…

There are several places in the Bible where God commissions statues and images for religious usage:

Exodus 25:10-22
1 Kings 6:23; 7:13-51
Numbers 21:6-9
Judges 17:1-6

Is God sending Two Different Messages?

Not necessarily…keep reading.

God ordered His children to construct these statues and images, but He did not intend for His children to worship them. God was using the images to help them to recall situations, to see places as holy and set apart, and to help them to open their minds and hearts and turn them back to God.

You see, an image is not an idol. There is a difference.

“An image is simply a spiritual ‘visual aid’ that is used by the faithful to increase their spirit of prayerfulness and devotion to God. An idol, on the other hand, is an image that is worshipped by the unfaithful in place of the one true God (i.e., the ‘golden calf’ described in Ex. 32:7-8).”

In the Old Testament, images of God were forbidden because folks had not yet seen God in human form. In the New Testament, God HAS taken on human form…an image that we can see.

“He (Jesus) is the image of the invisible God…” – Colossians 1:15

“For in Jesus dwells the whole fullness of the Deity, bodily…” – Colossians 2:9

“What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we looked upon and touched with our hands concerns the Word of life – for the life was made visible…” – 1 John 1:1-2

When we profess that Jesus Christ is Lord, we must remember that we are professing the Incarnation…that is, that God became flesh…flesh in human form, Who we could see, smell, hear, touch and (through the Eucharist) taste!

When we look upon a statue as we meditate in prayer to God, our senses are illuminated. We are not worshipping the wood, plaster, plastic or paint. The image, though, appeals to our sense of sight, aiding in our visualization and helping us to focus on the pure, consistent and holy life lived by that saint…like the Blessed Virgin Mary, for instance.

Here’s a few more things to keep in mind:

Stained glass windows with images can work in the same way…but most people don’t seem to have a problem with those, because “they’re just pretty”.

Images were very important in the early times of our Church’s history, especially when most of the faithful were illiterate, and could not read the word of God on their own. The images helped them recall instances and situations in the Word that they had heard about, but could not read on their own.

We put framed pictures of loved ones on mantles and walls of our homes, but that doesn’t mean that we worship them.

If I hold my Bible during worship, and hold it close to my heart…am I worshipping the God who inspired and wrote it, or am I worshipping the leather, glue and paper?

The weatherman uses a visual aid of maps when forecasting the weather, but couldn’t he just tell us the facts and read the temperatures?

Is a Children’s picture Bible that includes animations and drawings throughout it, the worshipping of images? Those are images, too, just not 3-D.

Catholics may pray in front of a statue, but never to a statue…that would be idolatry.

Finally, consider these last two thoughts regarding what the early Christians did:

“Previously God, who has neither a body nor a face, absolutely could not be represented by an image. But now that he has made himself visible in the flesh and has lived with men, I can make an image of what I have seen of God…and contemplate the glory of the Lord, his face unveiled.” – St. John Damascene (749 AD)

“The early Church used statues and images as aids to devotion and as expressions of faith. One need only to visit the catacombs in Rome to see statues and frescoes representing no only Christ but also scenes from Scripture. When the Church emerged from the catacombs, it continued to decorate its houses of worship with statues, mosaics, frescoes, and oil paintings, all designed to increase a spirit of prayerfulness.” -Albert Nevins, M.M.

(Based, in part, on Unabridged Christianity, by Fr. Mario Romero)

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musiclover0526

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Re: Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?
« Reply #6 on: July 28, 2008, 11:26:35 AM »
matud pa nila...kung love nimo ang isa ka tawo..naa sila pictures..tan aw tan awon..hagkan hagkan..mao ra sad na sa images sa mga god..tungod kay love nila ang god,ilang simbahon bisan mga rebulto.

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ms da binsi

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Re: Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?
« Reply #7 on: July 28, 2008, 11:28:34 AM »
Is God sending Two Different Messages?


Are there diff'rent versions? o yeah there are, but who do we believe now??? hahahha

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Re: Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?
« Reply #8 on: July 28, 2008, 11:29:31 AM »
"Thou shalt not make any graven image"
By Wayne Blank

"Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I The Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate Me; And showing mercy unto thousands of them that love Me, and keep My Commandments" (Exodus 20:4-6 KJV)

The Second Commandment

Violation of the Second Commandment takes two general forms; first, the worship of false gods by means of religious statues or pictures, and second, the worship of the True God by means of religious statues or pictures.

The first form of idolatry is rendered obviously wrong by The First Commandment which makes plain not to worship false gods (see "Thou shalt have no other gods before Me"). The First Commandment covers the false-god aspect of the Second Commandment.

The second form of idolatry should also be seen as obviously wrong to anyone with a Bible, and who reads it, and who reads it with an attitude of truly obeying God, but millions of people who merely claim (to their eventual regret, if they don't repent, see I Did It My Way...) to be good Christians defy God by having religious statues or pictures in their churches or homes. The true God is not a picture, the true God is not a statue, and as the Scriptures plainly state, by God's own Word, the true God is not to be worshiped or prayed to by the use of statues or pictures. It is a blasphemous insult to Almighty God to portray Him in such a lowly and grossly-inaccurate way!

Imagine, if when someone wanted to talk to you, they made themselves a hollow, lifeless plaster doll, that they said represented you, brought it into your presence and instead of talking to you directly, they talked to the lifeless plaster doll, as if it were you, all the while ignoring the real you who was right there with them. Would you think someone who did that was very foolish? Would you be offended by someone who "sees you" as a plaster dummy? And if, after your telling them that you don't like them doing that, and emphatically telling them not to do it, they kept doing it anyway, would you become angry with them? By His own words, it makes God very angry too. You aren't a dummy (unless, after you've read this, you keep any religious statues or images that you happen to have), and God isn't a dummy either. If you have any such religious statues or pictures as your lawful personal possession, destroy them immediately! (do not touch anything that is someone else's property, but show them this study if you can - everyone is responsible for themselves before God after they know the Truth).

The same holds true for using statues or images to worship or pray to the dead saints of the past (just as it's wrong to worship or pray to the living saints of the present - see What Is A Saint?). Only God is to be prayed to or worshiped (see also What Would Mary Really Say About Idolatry?). All of the saints of the past were merely people the same as anyone today, and all of the dead saints of the past cannot hear anything, or do anything, for anyone because they are dead at the moment. Dead does not mean "alive and dead," dead means dead (see What Happens When You Die?). If they were not dead, if the dead were already alive, there would be no need for a future resurrection of the dead (see Resurrections). Again, if you have any such religious statues or pictures as your lawful personal possession, destroy them immediately! (and again, do not touch anything that is someone else's property, but show them this study if you can - everyone is responsible for themselves before God after they know the Truth)

What does the Bible warn about the use of statues and pictures for worship?

God will shame and condemn those who use statues or images for worship:

    "Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? Ye are even My witnesses. Is there a God beside Me? Yea, there is no God; I know not any. They that make a graven image are all of them vanity; and their delectable things shall not profit; and they are their own witnesses; they see not, nor know; that they may be ashamed. Who hath formed a god, or molten a graven image that is profitable for nothing? Behold, all his fellows shall be ashamed: and the workmen, they are of men: let them all be gathered together, let them stand up; yet they shall fear, and they shall be ashamed together." (Isaiah 44:8-11 KJV)

God is not made of wood, plastic, or cement - God is not to be represented by wood, plastic, or cement:

    "Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Because He hath appointed a day, in the which He will judge the world [see When Will You Be Judged?] in righteousness by that man whom He hath ordained; whereof He hath given assurance unto all men, in that He hath raised Him from the dead" (Acts 17:29-31 KJV)

source: Bible Study

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Lorenzo

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Re: Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?
« Reply #9 on: July 28, 2008, 11:30:46 AM »
Ate Belle,

I go to church and kneel before the blessed crucifix of Jesus Christ, and take of the Bread and Wine. I am not praying to anyone besides my Lord and Savior. Who is Jesus Christ.

The statue of Mother Mary, we do not pray to her but to ask her intercession to Her Son in Heaven.

These misconceptions many have is something that needs to be 'eradicated'. For it is destructive and untrue.



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Re: Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?
« Reply #10 on: July 28, 2008, 11:34:02 AM »
Acts 7:47

47 but it was Solomon who built a house for him. 48. However, the Most High does not live in buildings made by human[ii] hands. As the prophet says,

49      “‘Heaven is my throne,

and the earth is my footstool.

What kind of house can you build for me,’ declares the Lord,

“or what place is there in which I can rest?

50      It was my hand that made all these things, wasn't it?'”

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Lorenzo

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Re: Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?
« Reply #11 on: July 28, 2008, 11:35:39 AM »
  If there is one area that a Catholic might be unwittingly guilty of is this. In fact ask a practicing Catholic about their beloved statues of saints, if they pray TO the statue of the saint. Most likely, you’ll get an answer saying, they pray TO the saint. However, if you look at the actual prayers, they’re requests for intercession between God and us, and definitely NOT worshiping the statue. That would be pagan idolatry.

So why do we keep statues and pictures of saints, and for that matter the

Virgin Mary? If you happen to visit any park or memorial, you’ll most likely find a statue or a depiction of a hero or a political figure. Those are there because we honor and cherish their memory. In the same token, then we honor saints and righteous men and women. There are several passages in the Bible that actually require us do just that, such as 1 Pet 2:17 :

    "Give honor to all, love the community, fear God, honor the king."

and Rom 12:10

    "love one another with mutual affection; anticipate one another in showing honor.
    Do not grow slack in zeal, be fervent in spirit, serve the Lord.
    Rejoice in hope, endure in affliction, persevere in prayer.
    Contribute to the needs of the holy ones, exercise hospitality."

And in Heb 12:22-23:

    "No, you have approached Mount Zion and the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and countless angels in festal gathering,
    and the assembly of the firstborn enrolled in heaven, and God the judge of all, and the spirits of the just made perfect,"

"the assembly of the firstborn enrolled in heaven" is an expression that may refer to the angels, or to the heroes of the Old Testament, or to the entire assembly of the new covenant. Statues and pictures are visual reminders of our great saints and heroes of the faith (Heb 11) whose life and faith God intended for us to imitate, as in Heb 13:7. 7 Remember your leaders who spoke the word of God to you. Consider the outcome of their way of life and imitate their faith.

God never intended for the saints in heaven to be completely separated from the body of Christ on earth. They are involved in intercession, just as the saints on earth are, and they are described as "so great a cloud of witnesses" (Heb 12:1).

    "Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us rid ourselves of every burden and sin that clings to us and persevere in running the race that lies before us"

Christian life is to be inspired not only by the men and women of faith in the Old Testament but above all by Jesus, whose suffering at the cross gave His followers the courage to continue the struggle, if necessary even to the shedding of blood.

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ms da binsi

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Re: Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?
« Reply #12 on: July 28, 2008, 11:38:26 AM »
Flags can also be objects of veneration but heroes and flags are diff'rent...we dont worhip them.

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Re: Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?
« Reply #13 on: July 28, 2008, 11:43:46 AM »
God Said To Make Them

People who oppose religious statuary forget about the many passages where the Lord commands the making of statues. For example: "And you shall make two cherubim of gold [i.e., two gold statues of angels]; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. Make one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end; of one piece of the mercy seat shall you make the cherubim on its two ends. The cherubim shall spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, their faces one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubim be" (Ex. 25:18–20).

David gave Solomon the plan "for the altar of incense made of refined gold, and its weight; also his plan for the golden chariot of the cherubim that spread their wings and covered the ark of the covenant of the Lord. All this he made clear by the writing of the hand of the Lord concerning it all, all the work to be done according to the plan" (1 Chr. 28:18–19). David’s plan for the temple, which the biblical author tells us was "by the writing of the hand of the Lord concerning it all," included statues of angels.

Similarly Ezekiel 41:17–18 describes graven (carved) images in the idealized temple he was shown in a vision, for he writes, "On the walls round about in the inner room and [on] the nave were carved likenesses of cherubim."


The Religious Uses of Images

During a plague of serpents sent to punish the Israelites during the exodus, God told Moses to "make [a statue of] a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and every one who is bitten, when he sees it shall live. So Moses made a bronze serpent, and set it on a pole; and if a serpent bit any man, he would look at the bronze serpent and live" (Num. 21:8–9).

One had to look at the bronze statue of the serpent to be healed, which shows that statues could be used ritually, not merely as religious decorations.

Catholics use statues, paintings, and other artistic devices to recall the person or thing depicted. Just as it helps to remember one’s mother by looking at her photograph, so it helps to recall the example of the saints by looking at pictures of them. Catholics also use statues as teaching tools. In the early Church they were especially useful for the instruction of the illiterate. Many Protestants have pictures of Jesus and other Bible pictures in Sunday school for teaching children. Catholics also use statues to commemorate certain people and events, much as Protestant churches have three-dimensional nativity scenes at Christmas.

If one measured Protestants by the same rule, then by using these "graven" images, they would be practicing the "idolatry" of which they accuse Catholics. But there’s no idolatry going on in these situations. God forbids the worship of images as gods, but he doesn’t ban the making of images. If he had, religious movies, videos, photographs, paintings, and all similar things would be banned. But, as the case of the bronze serpent shows, God does not even forbid the ritual use of religious images.

It is when people begin to adore a statue as a god that the Lord becomes angry. Thus when people did start to worship the bronze serpent as a snake-god (whom they named "Nehushtan"), the righteous king Hezekiah had it destroyed (2 Kgs. 18:4).


Hiding the Second Commandment?



Another charge sometimes made by Protestants is that the Catholic Church "hides" the second commandment. This is because in Catholic catechisms, the first commandment is often listed as "You shall have no other gods before me" (Ex. 20:3), and the second is listed as "You shall not take the name of the Lord in vain." (Ex. 20:7). From this, it is argued that Catholics have deleted the prohibition of idolatry to justify their use of religious statues. But this is false. Catholics simply group the commandments differently from most Protestants.

In Exodus 20:2–17, which gives the Ten Commandments, there are actually fourteen imperative statements. To arrive at Ten Commandments, some statements have to be grouped together, and there is more than one way of doing this. Since, in the ancient world, polytheism and idolatry were always united—idolatry being the outward expression of polytheism—the historic Jewish numbering of the Ten Commandments has always grouped together the imperatives "You shall have no other gods before me" (Ex. 20:3) and "You shall not make for yourself a graven image" (Ex. 20:4). The historic Catholic numbering follows the Jewish numbering on this point, as does the historic Lutheran numbering. Martin Luther recognized that the imperatives against polytheism and idolatry are two parts of a single command.

Jews and Christians abbreviate the commandments so that they can be remembered using a summary, ten-point formula. For example, Jews, Catholics, and Protestants typically summarize the Sabbath commandment as, "Remember the Sabbath to keep it holy," though the commandment’s actual text takes four verses (Ex. 20:8–11).

When the prohibition of polytheism/idolatry is summarized, Jews, Catholics, and Lutherans abbreviate it as "You shall have no other gods before me." This is no attempt to "hide" the idolatry prohibition (Jews and Lutherans don’t even use statues of saints and angels). It is to make learning the Ten Commandments easier.

The Catholic Church is not dogmatic about how the Ten Commandments are to be numbered, however. The Catechism of the Catholic Church says, "The division and numbering of the Commandments have varied in the course of history. The present catechism follows the division of the Commandments established by Augustine, which has become traditional in the Catholic Church. It is also that of the Lutheran confession. The Greek Fathers worked out a slightly different division, which is found in the Orthodox Churches and Reformed communities" (CCC 2066).




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Re: Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?
« Reply #14 on: July 28, 2008, 11:46:10 AM »
John 4:23-24 (ESV) But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship him. God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.“

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Re: Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?
« Reply #15 on: July 28, 2008, 11:47:23 AM »
The Form of God?

Some anti-Catholics appeal to Deuteronomy 4:15–18 in their attack on religious statues: "Since you saw no form on the day that the Lord spoke to you at Horeb out of the midst of the fire, beware lest you act corruptly by making a graven image for yourselves, in the form of any figure, the likeness of male or female, the likeness of any beast that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged bird that flies in the air, the likeness of anything that creeps on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the water under the earth."

We’ve already shown that God doesn’t prohibit the making of statues or images of various creatures for religious purposes (cf. 1 Kgs. 6:29–32, 8:6–66; 2 Chr. 3:7–14). But what about statues or images that represent God? Many Protestants would say that’s wrong because Deuteronomy 4 says the Israelites did not see God under any form when he made the covenant with them, therefore we should not make symbolic representations of God either. But does Deuteronomy 4 forbid such representations?


What About Bowing?



Sometimes anti-Catholics cite Deuteronomy 5:9, where God said concerning idols, "You shall not bow down to them." Since many Catholics sometimes bow or kneel in front of statues of Jesus and the saints, anti-Catholics confuse the legitimate veneration of a sacred image with the sin of idolatry.

Though bowing can be used as a posture in worship, not all bowing is worship. In Japan, people show respect by bowing in greeting (the equivalent of the Western handshake). Similarly, a person can kneel before a king without worshiping him as a god. In the same way, a Catholic who may kneel in front of a statue while praying isn’t worshiping the statue or even praying to it, any more than the Protestant who kneels with a Bible in his hands when praying is worshiping the Bible or praying to it.



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Re: Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?
« Reply #16 on: July 28, 2008, 11:51:16 AM »
"Catholics worship statues!" People still make this ridiculous claim. Because Catholics have statues in their churches, goes the accusation, they are violating God’s commandment: "You shall not make for yourself a graven image or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: you shall not bow down to them or serve them" (Ex. 20:4–5); "Alas, this people have sinned a great sin; they have made for themselves gods of gold" (Ex. 32:31).

It is right to warn people against the sin of idolatry when they are committing it. But calling Catholics idolaters because they have images of Christ and the saints is based on misunderstanding or ignorance of what the Bible says about the purpose and uses (both good and bad) of statues.

Anti-Catholic writer Loraine Boettner, in his book Roman Catholicism, makes the blanket statement, "God has forbidden the use of images in worship" (281). Yet if people were to "search the scriptures" (cf. John 5:39), they would find the opposite is true. God forbade the worship of statues, but he did not forbid the religious use of statues. Instead, he actually commanded their use in religious contexts!

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Re: Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?
« Reply #17 on: July 28, 2008, 11:56:40 AM »
The argument to prejudice Catholic practices in regards to the passage, (Ex. 20:4–5); "Alas, this people have sinned a great sin; they have made for themselves gods of gold" (Ex. 32:31) is of no basis.

Such particular excerpt was made to admonish the worship of pagan gods. Most exceptionally Egypt.

I do not worship anyone other than my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. Who is Alive in Church. In the Holy Gospel.

In the Bread of Life, and in Wine.

We glorify his Mighty Name in Church, In Mass.

For who do we pray if not for Our Father In Heaven. Our prayers rises to him like sweet incense.

We pray O Lord for your protection of Your Holy Church. Whom was built for you. For the Salvation of Souls.



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Re: Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?
« Reply #18 on: July 28, 2008, 12:09:21 PM »
I read something concerning Orthodox and Catholic practices and would be best to reiterate it in here to elucidate the matter for those who have distorted and wrong interpretations of the matter.


WHY were the Israelites commanded not to make graven images?...Graven images were the standard method of pagan worship. They were representations of false gods...an "image" NOT made for worship is acceptable. In fact, we should not really call things like the cherubims "images" at all -- an "image" in ancient thought is not merely something that has an appearance, like a statue or a picture, but something that serves as a focal point for the presence and power of a deity. Thus for example ancient rulers in Egypt, Babylon, and elsewhere were referred to as the "image" of a certain deity, not because they looked like the deity, but because the deity's power and authority was thought to operate through them.

With this understanding in mind, does the Orthodox use of icons violate the command against graven images? Based on Sparks' and Whiteford's description, and even though they seem unaware of this understanding of "image," the answer seems to be no. Although Sparks correctly notes the use of cherubim on the Ark (which Barker saw as contrary to the restriction), as well as the fact that the other images were used as idols; and though he also notes the existence of paintings and statues depicting the likes of Peter and Paul, and notes that people were apparently "deeply moved" by them, he does not apparently know the background meaning of the Hebrew and Greek words for "image". Still, if he did, it would not work against Orthodox use of icons as Sparks and Whiteford describe them. His defense offers these points, however:

   1. The icons make no effort to depict God. If they did, then they would be objectionable.
   2. Icons are actually word-pictures. In fact, Sparks uses the very proverb above ("a picture is worth a thousand words") to describe the purpose of icons.

On this accounting, reason 1 is a good point, but does not address the key argument. Reason 2 has a much stronger basis -- the early church (indeed the ancient world as a whole) was 90-95% illiterate. If icons are understood as memory aids, then they are far, far from being "images" of the sort forbidden by the Bible, no more so than would be a Children's Picture Bible. Whiteford quotes Pope Gregory (590-604) as saying, "For what writing presents to readers, this a picture presents to the unlearned who behold, since in it even the ignorant see what they ought to follow; in it the illiterate read." He then notes the problems of functional illiteracy today, and notes as well that many people (especially children) are pre-literate.

But that leads to the question, what of the parishoner I saw praying before the icon? What of those who kiss or bow before icons in reverence (and also may make the sign of the cross, recalling Christ's sacrifice)? Sparks replies that icons are "windows to heaven, revealing the glory of God" and actually "help to protect us from idolatry" by pointing us in the right direction. They also "bring a revelation, a manifestation of the unseen heavenly host of angels, saints and martyrs--yes, even the eternal saving events--into our presence." [8-9] By comparison he points to Daniel and Joshua bowing in veneration before an angel of God, and the honor persons give one another in daily life (such as honoring one's father and mother).

Sparks' example of Joshua and Daniel is open to question; Joshua at least may have been seeing an example of the pre-incarnate Christ. Yet Sparks' description, if we take it as doing justice to the Orthodox view, does make it clear that icons and their use are not a violation of the graven images command, even if they appear to be on the surface. Though Sparks' language is a little vague, it does not indicate that the icons are points of presence for a deity in the same sense that the ancient Baal or Dagon figurine was. As he describes them, icons are visual aids, and those who kiss and bow before them are giving respect, not worship. Whiteford compares it to an American saluting a flag as a "veneration" not of course of the cloth and dye, but of the ideal represented by the flag; or he compares it to Jews kissing their copy of the Torah.

Whiteford does, however, provide a rather questionable example as well. He notes that when Polycarp was martyred, several disciples tried very hard to retrieve his body. This actually reflects an ancient desire that ANY body should be buried honorably -- not any particular veneration for Polycarp. The ancients were deeply concerned for the preservation of ANY body for reasons of honor, and this was an honorable burial for a person deserving of honor, which to the ancients was as important as we would regard paying the bills (per the work of Malina and Rohrbaugh). The further observations of the date of martyrdom are a similar reflection.

Sparks notes the reply, "Why not just worship God?" His response: blank walls are of no use, for "such barrenness [does not] serve to speak of the presence of a living God." [9] One might remark in reply that the Holy Spirit indwelling the believer bespeaks of that well enough. But if we follow Sparks' explanation, icons might be best described as visual aids for visual thinkers; the kissing and praying as a way (if rather emotional and by Western standards, excessive) of saying "thank you" and giving respect to those depicted, as one may kiss one's mother or father and give them a hug. And if that is all there is to it, the "no graven images" command is not applicable. (I will admit that as a "verbal" thinker I personally find the idea of icons pointless.)

Of course one would not say that some Orthodox adherent may not fall into the mistake of false worship through icons -- the line between simple respect and outright worship is not very well-defined, and Orthodoxy uses more Eastern modes of expression which Westerners find too "mushy" -- just as one may point out that any Southern Baptist may fall into the error of salvation by works or a God with a human body. At the same time one cannot agree with Sparks that such things are "indispensable for those who sincerely pursue and desire the fullness of Christian worship" [20] -- for visually-oriented persons, or for the illiterate, such things may be eminently useful and helpful for worship, but they are hardly "indispensable." In short: The Orthodox use of icons is no violation of the graven image command in and of itself; which is not to say that it is not, like anything else, open for abuse and subject to misuse or excess. Indeed, in the Western world it may be far more open for abuse than in the East.

A helpful reader has passed on some material that may be of interest, and express at the very least a cautionary note. We should note as well that some of these cites may reflect an understanding of "image" in a way not quite the same as that of the definition we showed in our work on Mormonism, and that these writers were writing centuries before the Church really worked out and resolved the issue in the iconoclast controversy.

    "Works of art cannot then be sacred and divine." - Clement of Alexandria (The Stromata, 7:5)

    "In a word, if we refuse our homage to statues and frigid images, the very counterpart of their dead originals, with which hawks, and mice, and spiders are so well acquainted, does it not merit praise instead of penalty, that we have rejected what we have come to see is error?" - Tertullian (The Apology, 12)

    "We know that the names of the dead are nothing, as are their images; but we know well enough, too, who, when images are set up, under these names carry on their wicked work, and exult in the homage rendered to them, and pretend to be divine--none other than spirits accursed, than devils." - Tertullian (De Spectaculis, 10)

    "For how could he [Peter on the Mount of Transfiguration] have known Moses and Elias, except by being in the Spirit? People could not have had their images, or statues, or likenesses; for that the law forbade." - Tertullian (Against Marcion, 4:22)

    "But, they say, we do not fear the images themselves, but those beings after whose likeness they were formed, and to whose names they are dedicated. You fear them doubtless on this account, because you think that they are in heaven; for if they are gods, the case cannot be otherwise. Why, then, do you not raise your eyes to heaven, and, invoking their names, offer sacrifices in the open air? Why do you look to walls, and wood, and stone, rather than to the place where you believe them to be?...Wherefore it is undoubted that there is no religion wherever there is an image. For if religion consists of divine things, and there is nothing divine except in heavenly things; it follows that images are without religion, because there can be nothing heavenly in that which is made from the earth." - Lactantius (The Divine Institutes, 2:2, 2:19)

    "Moreover, I have heard that certain persons have this grievance against me: When I accompanied you to the holy place called Bethel, there to join you in celebrating the Collect, after the use of the Church, I came to a villa called Anablatha and, as I was passing, saw a lamp burning there. Asking what place it was, and learning it to be a church, I went in to pray, and found there a curtain hanging on the doors of the said church, dyed and embroidered. It bore an image either of Christ or of one of the saints; I do not rightly remember whose the image was. Seeing this, and being loth that an image of a man should be hung up in Christ's church contrary to the teaching of the Scriptures, I tore it asunder and advised the custodians of the place to use it as a winding sheet for some poor person. They, however, murmured, and said that if I made up my mind to tear it, it was only fair that I should give them another curtain in its place. As soon as I heard this, I promised that I would give one, and said that I would send it at once. Since then there has been some little delay, due to the fact that I have been seeking a curtain of the best quality to give to them instead of the former one, and thought it right to send to Cyprus for one. I have now sent the best that I could find, and I beg that you will order the presbyter of the place to take the curtain which I have sent from the hands of the Reader, and that you will afterwards give directions that curtains of the other sort--opposed as they are to our religion--shall not be hung up in any church of Christ. A man of your uprightness should be careful to remove an occasion of offence unworthy alike of the Church of Christ and of those Christians who are committed to your charge." (Jerome's Letter 51:9)

We close with these observations: One should not exaggerate the dangers of falling into idolatry, no matter how strange icon-veneration may seem to members of theological traditions that have traditionally been suspicious of liturgical art. Protestantism is the "unusual" party in this respect, not Orthodoxy (and specifically Evangelicalism: cf. e.g. the stained-glass windows, etc of Episcopalian Protestantism). It is a debate that should be approached with caution and not with our perceptions in the fore.

http://www.tektonics.org/gk/icons.html


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Re: Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?
« Reply #19 on: July 29, 2008, 09:56:32 AM »
Early in its history, Israel was forbidden to make any depictions of God because he had not revealed himself in a visible form. Given the pagan culture surrounding them, the Israelites might have been tempted to worship God in the form of an animal or some natural object (e.g., a bull or the sun).

But later God did reveal himself under visible forms, such as in Daniel 7:9: "As I looked, thrones were placed and one that was Ancient of Days took his seat; his raiment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like pure wool; his throne was fiery flames, its wheels were burning fire." Protestants make depictions of the Father under this form when they do illustrations of Old Testament prophecies.

The Holy Spirit revealed himself under at least two visible forms—that of a dove, at the baptism of Jesus (Matt. 3:16; Mark 1:10; Luke 3:22; John 1:32), and as tongues of fire, on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2:1–4). Protestants use these images when drawing or painting these biblical episodes and when they wear Holy Spirit lapel pins or place dove emblems on their cars.

But, more important, in the Incarnation of Christ his Son, God showed mankind an icon of himself. Paul said, "He is the image (Greek: ikon) of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation." Christ is the tangible, divine "icon" of the unseen, infinite God.

We read that when the magi were "going into the house they saw the child with Mary his mother, and they fell down and worshipped him. Then, opening their treasures, they offered him gifts, gold, frankincense, and myrrh" (Matt. 2:11). Though God did not reveal a form for himself on Mount Horeb, he did reveal one in the house in Bethlehem.

The bottom line is, when God made the New Covenant with us, he did reveal himself under a visible form in Jesus Christ. For that reason, we can make representations of God in Christ. Even Protestants use all sorts of religious images: Pictures of Jesus and other biblical persons appear on a myriad of Bibles, picture books, T-shirts, jewelry, bumper stickers, greeting cards, compact discs, and manger scenes. Christ is even symbolically represented through the Icthus or "fish emblem."

Common sense tells us that, since God has revealed himself in various images, most especially in the incarnate Jesus Christ, it’s not wrong for us to use images of these forms to deepen our knowledge and love of God. That’s why God revealed himself in these visible forms, and that’s why statues and pictures are made of them.

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Re: Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?
« Reply #20 on: July 29, 2008, 01:21:10 PM »

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Re: Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?
« Reply #21 on: July 29, 2008, 03:02:42 PM »
Should God Be Worshipped Through Images? John 4:23&24(please read)
It is a matter of personal choice, if you want to worship God through images then go ahead. yet if you read the two verses you will know how to worship GOD. the two verses are self explanatory of whom the FATHER seek as true worshippers. GOD's plan for mankind will continue regardless of what fashion you worship HIM.
:)

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Re: Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?
« Reply #22 on: July 29, 2008, 09:35:26 PM »
I agree with you completely Ate Lee.

When I attended collegiate bible study and inter-collegiate christian groups, we discussed this very issue.

I would like to say that by the end of our year-long meetings, many of us Catholics befriended protestants: lutherans, presbyterians, baptists, born-agains.

The general consensus we agreed on was that Christ Jesus is the Savior. The particular way of worship may differ from congregation to congregation, denomination to denomination, but the solid understanding of scripture, reading it, internalizing it is seen in all forms. Some may be orthodox in its ways as in retaining not only scriptural readings, but also a strong sense of religious practice in sacred methodology; then there are those who lean more on scriptural readings.

All of which, are beautiful and illustrate the worshiper's obeisance and Love of Our Father in Heaven.

I have been to baptist churches, been to orthodox churches (Greek and Russian), I have attended Presbyterian, United Methodist. I am a Roman Catholic, but I cannot help but smile in elation to see that in the very bottom line; we all worship the very same God. And read the very same scripture; though some have different translations from the original; the overall messages are reiterated.

Give Glory to God. And Only to God.



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Re: Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?
« Reply #23 on: July 29, 2008, 09:53:02 PM »
People surround themselves with symbols and trinkets to show off , if there were no symbols, and people were judged based on the lives they lead, nobody would know who the christians were! Symbols are there to make christians feel important in front of everyone else.
 


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Re: Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?
« Reply #24 on: July 31, 2008, 02:23:38 PM »
This is my story about religion we are very familiar with. First, more than 2 thousand years ago there was no Christianity but Judaism or the religion of the Jews. Then in 49 AD Paul or Saul, a pharisee, after his conversion to Christianity wrote the first 6 books of the new testament. He wrote about Jesus. Then after his death in 68 AD 15 years later gospels or good news were written about Jesus. Mind you... There are not only 4 gospels but more than 30 gospels were written about Jesus.

The books in the new testament were written in Greek. The books in the old testament were written in Hebrew. Therefore the bible is divided into 2 religious philosophical principles, Jewish and Greek.

The Hebrews believe in God as a spirit so they worship God in spirit which is why there is no statue in their synagogue. The Greeks believe that God became man. The Greeks admire the religion of the Jews but they don't want to follow it because of its so many traditional rituals. When Jesus came through the new testament the Greeks rebuked the religion of the Jews and its traditions as obsolete because Jesus said that, 'he is the new covenant promised by God'. Jesus in his so many of his teachings rebuked the traditions of the Jews. Since Greek tradition worship statue in their temples like the statue of Zeus they also brought that tradition when they were converted to Christianity. In olden times most of the people does not know how to read and write so to convert them is to show pictues, icons and sculptures. The Jews since they do not believe in Jesus vilified Christianity that the bickering cannot be settled by love and friendly persuasion but by hate.

This religious bickering lasted for almost 2 thousand years until the Jews were slaughtered by Christians in Hitler's Germany. Did you remember the late Pope Paul VI asking for forgiveness from the Jews for what Christians had done to the Jews for the last 1,900 years?

Salamat!

Way Nada

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Re: Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?
« Reply #25 on: July 31, 2008, 08:45:19 PM »
Excellent point of view, Mr. Nada. As always, thank you for that view.

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Re: Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?
« Reply #26 on: August 01, 2008, 01:29:14 AM »
This is my story about religion we are very familiar with. First, more than 2 thousand years ago there was no Christianity but Judaism or the religion of the Jews. Then in 49 AD Paul or Saul, a pharisee, after his conversion to Christianity wrote the first 6 books of the new testament. He wrote about Jesus. Then after his death in 68 AD 15 years later gospels or good news were written about Jesus. Mind you... There are not only 4 gospels but more than 30 gospels were written about Jesus.

The books in the new testament were written in Greek. The books in the old testament were written in Hebrew. Therefore the bible is divided into 2 religious philosophical principles, Jewish and Greek.

The Hebrews believe in God as a spirit so they worship God in spirit which is why there is no statue in their synagogue. The Greeks believe that God became man. The Greeks admire the religion of the Jews but they don't want to follow it because of its so many traditional rituals. When Jesus came through the new testament the Greeks rebuked the religion of the Jews and its traditions as obsolete because Jesus said that, 'he is the new covenant promised by God'. Jesus in his so many of his teachings rebuked the traditions of the Jews. Since Greek tradition worship statue in their temples like the statue of Zeus they also brought that tradition when they were converted to Christianity. In olden times most of the people does not know how to read and write so to convert them is to show pictues, icons and sculptures. The Jews since they do not believe in Jesus vilified Christianity that the bickering cannot be settled by love and friendly persuasion but by hate.

This religious bickering lasted for almost 2 thousand years until the Jews were slaughtered by Christians in Hitler's Germany. Did you remember the late Pope Paul VI asking for forgiveness from the Jews for what Christians had done to the Jews for the last 1,900 years?

Salamat!

Way Nada


i like your point Nads! sajun ra kaajo sabton! sumpayi pa daw kay murag hajag na gamay!

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Re: Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?
« Reply #27 on: August 01, 2008, 01:41:18 AM »
we need to have them in order for us to have a reminder..
its just a representative..
as long as you dont worship the statue itself..then all is fine

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Re: Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?
« Reply #28 on: August 01, 2008, 10:40:09 AM »

i like your point Nads! sajun ra kaajo sabton! sumpayi pa daw kay murag hajag na gamay!

Q: Who converted Paul to Christianity?

A: Jesus, when he was walking on his way to Damascus he was blinded by a light and heard a voice from heaven saying; Saul! Saul! Why are you persecuting me? It happened in 36 AD three years after the death of Christ.

Q: Which came first in the New Testament... the story of Jesus in the four Gospels or Paul's conversion on the way to Damascus?

It's your judgement!

Some people read the bible as a subject of historical studies but most people read the bible as a foundation of faith in God. My understanding is in the Jewish religion every person is free to say something pertaining to religion as long as they don't abandon the Commandments of Moses or the Torah. There was Simon Bar Kochbah who the Jews believed as the Christ when in 68 AD led the Jews to a revolt against the Romans. Another was John the Baptist or in the Talmud he was called Bannu the baptizer who established a religion before Christianity appeared.

In Christianity it is different because Jesus taught to abandon the Jewish traditions and the law of Moses especially the Sabbath. In Jesus the commandments is divided into two; Love of God and love of your neighbors.

In my opinion the bible is part history, part theology and most cases the stories are allegorical like Sodom and Gomorrah, the walls of Jericho or the flood during Noah's time in the bible. In the New Testament there is a story about the temple. When Jesus went to the temple he saw it as a place of commerce among the Jews. So he drove away all the people doing business in the temple telling them not to make the house of his Father a den of thieves. He challenge the Jews to destroy this temple and in three days he will rebuild it. This is allegorical because this story is written in the bible after the destruction of the temple. The gospels were written in 75 to 130 AD while the destruction of the temple was in 70 AD. Allegorical story is to disregard the real event in place of theological reason. The theological idea here is the resurrection of Christ in 3 days.

Salamat!

Way Nada





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Re: Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?
« Reply #29 on: August 01, 2008, 12:26:38 PM »
Ang ako jud gikalibugan noh? kay si Jesus jewish man na sha...pero gi abandon man nija ang Jewish tradition nga ang mga Jewish sa una ug karon nga PRO GOD man na sila...they worhip the God The Father man...

libog ko....

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Re: Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?
« Reply #30 on: August 04, 2008, 12:38:18 AM »
The argument to prejudice Catholic practices in regards to the passage, (Ex. 20:4–5); "Alas, this people have sinned a great sin; they have made for themselves gods of gold" (Ex. 32:31) is of no basis.

Such particular excerpt was made to admonish the worship of pagan gods. Most exceptionally Egypt.

I do not worship anyone other than my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. Who is Alive in Church. In the Holy Gospel.

In the Bread of Life, and in Wine.

We glorify his Mighty Name in Church, In Mass.

For who do we pray if not for Our Father In Heaven. Our prayers rises to him like sweet incense.

We pray O Lord for your protection of Your Holy Church. Whom was built for you. For the Salvation of Souls.



Siguro, kon sa unang panahon pa mi uso ang mga bible studies, fellowships, prayer meetings etc....  ang mga katoliko, may klarong pagsabot sa ilang tinohuan.

Sukad nga nag attend ko ug mga bible studies ug mga fellowships, diha p ko nakatugkad kon unsa ang pakikipagrelasyon kay Kristo. Nakakat-on ko kun unsaon pag-ampo nga deretso n sa Ginoo pinaagi kay Kristo. Nabag-o ang akong pagsabut sa akong namat-an nga tinohuan. I praise God for the blessings and wonderful things, bisan sa mga problema & hardships I praise Him that he always make me strong, I praise You Lord in the name of Jesus, hallelujah amen and amen!!!

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Re: Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?
« Reply #31 on: August 04, 2008, 01:20:47 AM »

Way Nada

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Re: Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?
« Reply #32 on: August 04, 2008, 11:01:44 AM »
Ang ako jud gikalibugan noh? kay si Jesus jewish man na sha...pero gi abandon man nija ang Jewish tradition nga ang mga Jewish sa una ug karon nga PRO GOD man na sila...they worhip the God The Father man...

libog ko....

Ms Da Binsi,

Jesus Christ is Jewish... You are correct! But why is it that in the bible Jesus preached to abandon the Jewish tradition?

Well, I put up already an answer to this question in my previous message that; the whole bible is divided between the two religious philosophical principles. The OT which is Hebrew and the NT which is Greek.

The NT which is principally in Greek wanted to reconcile with the OT which is why Christians always philosophize that the NT is the fulfillment of the prophets in the OT. But this Christian logic is always blocked by the owner of the OT who are the Jews. The Jews are not believers of Jesus as the Christ until today. Christianity during the days of the early Church Fathers is called heretics by the Jews. This caused the Christians to hate the Jews and accused the Jews of killing the Christ which the Christians wrote in the NT. Which is why the NT is a filibuster against the Jews as wicked people.

Ms Da Binsi, I hope you can get an idea to what I said. If Christ is a Jew and he wanted to abandon his Jewish tradition therefore the people who wrote the gospels might not be Jewish but Greek. Christ is only a subject to convert the Jews and gentiles to Christianity. In the gospels 3 are synoptic which means that they have almost the same idea... Matthew, Luke and Mark but John is different. The book of John according to bible experts was intellectually written in Greek. The gospels if they were really written by the Apostles it should be in Hebrew and it should not be a message to abandon their tradition. Some believed that the gospels are only pseudepigraphical books, meaning that the authors were not Jews but Greeks. I'll give you an example; The Apostles the way they dressed as pictured by Christians are in Greek style and not like Jewish.

Salamat!

WN   

 

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Re: Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?
« Reply #33 on: September 15, 2008, 08:26:28 AM »
Ms Da Binsi,

Jesus Christ is Jewish... You are correct! But why is it that in the bible Jesus preached to abandon the Jewish tradition?

Well, I put up already an answer to this question in my previous message that; the whole bible is divided between the two religious philosophical principles. The OT which is Hebrew and the NT which is Greek.

The NT which is principally in Greek wanted to reconcile with the OT which is why Christians always philosophize that the NT is the fulfillment of the prophets in the OT. But this Christian logic is always blocked by the owner of the OT who are the Jews. The Jews are not believers of Jesus as the Christ until today. Christianity during the days of the early Church Fathers is called heretics by the Jews. This caused the Christians to hate the Jews and accused the Jews of killing the Christ which the Christians wrote in the NT. Which is why the NT is a filibuster against the Jews as wicked people.

Ms Da Binsi, I hope you can get an idea to what I said. If Christ is a Jew and he wanted to abandon his Jewish tradition therefore the people who wrote the gospels might not be Jewish but Greek. Christ is only a subject to convert the Jews and gentiles to Christianity. In the gospels 3 are synoptic which means that they have almost the same idea... Matthew, Luke and Mark but John is different. The book of John according to bible experts was intellectually written in Greek. The gospels if they were really written by the Apostles it should be in Hebrew and it should not be a message to abandon their tradition. Some believed that the gospels are only pseudepigraphical books, meaning that the authors were not Jews but Greeks. I'll give you an example; The Apostles the way they dressed as pictured by Christians are in Greek style and not like Jewish.

Salamat!

WN   

 

Way Nada,

For me, I do not care what anyone else says if they criticize me how I worship my Lord, my Creator, and my Redeemer. We do things and we pray the way we do because we are invigorated in Faith and called to pray by The Most High.

I care not what a man calls me, or what his views are in how I worship. Scripture strengthens me because it says, ""Do not judge, and you will not be judged; and do not condemn, and you will not be condemned; pardon, and you will be pardoned." (Luke 6:37)

Sacred Tradition in lieu with Sacred Scripture helps me to see forward and to find my Lord and Savior. If a person has a problem with it, then I say to them, "God Bless You!"


Through Christ Jesus, Our Lord.

Amen.

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Re: Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?
« Reply #34 on: September 17, 2008, 01:17:16 PM »
Way Nada,

For me, I do not care what anyone else says if they criticize me how I worship my Lord, my Creator, and my Redeemer. We do things and we pray the way we do because we are invigorated in Faith and called to pray by The Most High.

I care not what a man calls me, or what his views are in how I worship. Scripture strengthens me because it says, ""Do not judge, and you will not be judged; and do not condemn, and you will not be condemned; pardon, and you will be pardoned." (Luke 6:37)

Sacred Tradition in lieu with Sacred Scripture helps me to see forward and to find my Lord and Savior. If a person has a problem with it, then I say to them, "God Bless You!"


Through Christ Jesus, Our Lord.

Amen.

Lorenzo,

I am not questioning or criticizing your way of worship. You are correct! You should worship your God according to your faith. I think you are putting my opinion emotionally instead of having an open mind.

WN










 

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Re: Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?
« Reply #35 on: September 17, 2008, 01:33:51 PM »
maw, open up your mind.

for us catholics, we do not worship that statue, it is only a representation. we worship to God. if you think otherwise you better think twice on judging the way you see catholics pray.

well for me it's better to pray infront of a statue than praying infront of a blank wall!

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Re: Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?
« Reply #36 on: September 17, 2008, 07:11:45 PM »
Buwad is right.

For others who are not catholic, they think we pray to a statue. They think so because they are not Catholic, and do not understand our motive of prayer.

We pray in Faith. In the Spirit.

For Our Father in Heaven is in the Heavens. All the world is His. The statues that are inside chuches are nothing but beautifications that are similarly found in the Jewish Temples. It is to glorify His wonders, His church that He created when He came down from Heaven into Earth.

When Christ came down to Earth, man saw Him. Man saw how our Lord looked like. St. Peter the Apostle, the first Pope of the Church, saw him, kissed him, hugged him, and was there with Him.

There is a reason for the things. The Catholic Church has survived revolutions, wars, protestant splinterring, survived the plagues that the Devil has given to attack the faith of those within the Church.

And Like as Jesus told Peter, ""I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it."
-Matthew 16:18


There are reasons for things that we cannot understand. And as a lowly man who is made from dust, I acquiesce to that. Faith, it is faith that calls me to pray. And it is Faith in Christ Jesus that brings 1.5 billion Catholics to pray as well.

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Re: Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?
« Reply #37 on: September 17, 2008, 08:33:31 PM »
well for me it's better to pray infront of a statue than praying infront of a blank wall!


Asa naman tong giingon sa Biblia nga "Bulahan kadtong ming tuo bisan wa nakakita nako"?

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Re: Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?
« Reply #38 on: September 18, 2008, 08:32:58 AM »
whats your point mam dabinz? lorenz, mag ka sinabut ta ani pre youre right inspite of the ups and downs abuses of some church authorities and from defectors. nia gihapon ang simbahan for more than thousand years proclaiming the glory of God!

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Re: Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?
« Reply #39 on: September 18, 2008, 10:05:09 AM »
whats your point mam dabinz? lorenz, mag ka sinabut ta ani pre youre right inspite of the ups and downs abuses of some church authorities and from defectors. nia gihapon ang simbahan for more than thousand years proclaiming the glory of God!

Buwad,

Despite the positions of our priests, and men and women of holy Orders, we are all sublimely and imperfectly HUMAN.

And because of that, fall prey to all the sins, imperfections, and vices that are attributed to Human Kind.

The sins that you, myself and our brothers and sisters experience and are tempted with, so too are our priests, our nuns, ministers, bishops, cardinals and even the Pope himself.

But despite our imperfections and our gregarious sins, we submit to the FACT that our Saviour and Redeemer, Christ Jesus, God Blessed Forever, has come to renounce our sins and redeem us through our submission to His Will. Salvation of our eternal soul is for Him and his Heavenly Father to prescribe. Not Man.

But even with our sins, we praise and look to direction of our Lord and Savior. And that is what it means to be a follower of Christ. To be a Catholic.


Unending glorious praise are Yours, Heavenly Father.
Now and Forever.



Through Christ Jesus, God Blessed Forever.

Peace be with everyone. :)

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Re: Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?
« Reply #40 on: September 18, 2008, 10:49:49 AM »
may God bless us all my friend!

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Re: Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?
« Reply #41 on: September 18, 2008, 04:59:45 PM »
Many believe that religious images help them to worship God. Is this view correct? How does God feel about the matter?



P.s. I just got this article today and find it very interesting to talk about....


Ms. DaBinsi,

Yes your view is correct. Religious worshippers ever since tend to believe that images as objects of worship help them to go to heaven. But there is one religion that differs from the other, that religion is Judaism.

When the Romans came to conquer Jerusalem the first place the Roman soldiers went is the temple mount to look for images of gods and goddesses to be destroyed and be replaced with their own Roman gods and godesses. To their surprise the Roman soldiers cannot see any images inside the temple that is used as an object of worship. This is so because the Jews faithfully follow the laws of Moses of not worshipping any other gods.

But before the Romans came Alexander the Great conquered Jerusalem and the Middle East. This is the start of the hellenization of the Jews meaning the Greek conqueror wanted to change the culture of the Jews. One of the changes imposed upon the Jewish people was to change their religion and worship Greek gods and godesses. The Jews resisted and they revolted against the Greek. The leader of this revolt was a man named Judas Maccabees. In the OT his books are included as Maccabees I and II.

Some of the Jews were converted when Paul a hellenized Jew preached about the life of Jesus. They were converted not by force but by evangelization.

WN

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Re: Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?
« Reply #42 on: September 18, 2008, 06:22:41 PM »
This topic is very much interesting, we might have some brothers and sisters from different sector of religions who were viewing this thread, For me as a Roman Catholic it is our tradition that we prayed infront of the image of our saviour, even inside in our church you can find it there but it does not mean that we worshipped the image, instead we sent directly our prayers to the almighty God, Ms Belskie might have a point to say that it's better to pray infront of a statue than praying infront of a blank wall!


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Re: Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?
« Reply #43 on: September 20, 2008, 02:00:58 PM »
aron dili mo maglalis basaha Kini nga verse: John 4:23 & 24

                  DOCTRINE CONQUERS ALL!

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Re: Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?
« Reply #44 on: September 20, 2008, 11:41:49 PM »
This topic is very much interesting, we might have some brothers and sisters from different sector of religions who were viewing this thread, For me as a Roman Catholic it is our tradition that we prayed infront of the image of our saviour, even inside in our church you can find it there but it does not mean that we worshipped the image, instead we sent directly our prayers to the almighty God, Ms Belskie might have a point to say that it's better to pray infront of a statue than praying infront of a blank wall!


haha ning kurog akong bolang kristal pagkadungog nako sa akong ngalan! Brown, i was born a Catholic, raised by my Catholic parents but  when i was growing i felt that Catholicism was not my heart was longing to follow so i searched the right church for me. In deed i found several and im sticking to it.

What i learned from what i believed that God is everywhere and HE is in You when embraced HIM. As to the image, thus I dont worshiped him through any kinds of images.

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Re: Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?
« Reply #45 on: September 21, 2008, 02:37:47 AM »
Madam Lee,

The verse from John 4:23-24 preaches, "Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."

And we do worship Him in the spirit. The presence of Church and Tradition are what strengthens the Family of Christ and invigorates the faith of many. It is a constant reminder of the need to pray, the need to seek redemption and to NEVER forget one's covenant with the Almighty. By right of the compact with Prophet Abraham. The prayers of men that are directed unto the Throne of the MOST HIGH, rises to him like incense that is burnt in offering.

As it is told to us in Sacred Scripture:

Let my prayer be incense before you; my uplifted hands an evening sacrifice.
Psalm 141: 2

And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, went up before God out of the angel's hand.
Revelations 8:4


As a Roman Catholic, I pray in the Spirit. Through mind and heart. And know that the Blessed Holy Spirit, the sanctifying Grace of The Lord dwells within me and all of those who believest in Him.

As it is said in scripture:

What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost
which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and
in your spirit, which are God's.

1 Corinthians 6:15-20




Salvation and Communion with the Almighty is Given to Me and my brothers and sisters.
Christ Jesus Has come to Save. His merciful hand has wiped away my sins and the sins of all even the wicked who believes in Him and finds sanctifying grace in Him, has been saved by that right.

AS IT IS PRONOUNCED in Sacred Scripture:

Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man,in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.
Romans 8:1

and again,

You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.
Romans 8:9




In the Name of Jesus Christ, Who is Lord and Saviour.
Who has died for our sins and rose on the 3rd day.
And who sits on the right hand of the Almighty Father in Heaven.





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Re: Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?
« Reply #46 on: September 21, 2008, 06:42:55 AM »
nothing can strengthen a believer except the Word of God (metabolized doctrine)which are circulating in the stream of consciousness in his soul.

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Re: Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?
« Reply #47 on: September 21, 2008, 07:19:13 AM »
Today is Sunday in Asia it is our tradition to go to church with our families, let's devote time for our almighty saviour, God Bless everyone.

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Re: Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?
« Reply #48 on: September 21, 2008, 07:23:37 AM »
Brownman,

Maayong Gabii to you (its night time over here for us)!

God Bless you, and all of us.

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Re: Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?
« Reply #49 on: September 22, 2008, 08:27:22 AM »
to all,
please understand, Catholic never worship a statue, they are only representations. Just like a picture of your father, it represent your father. as i said it's better to pray in front of an statue than in a blankwall.

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Re: Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?
« Reply #50 on: September 22, 2008, 09:27:53 AM »
to all,
please understand, Catholic never worship a statue, they are only representations. Just like a picture of your father, it represent your father. as i said it's better to pray in front of an statue than in a blankwall.


Yes the picture of yuor father is really your father, but the picture of Jesus was not even Jesus. For Heaven's sake who have ever seen Jesus?

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Re: Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?
« Reply #51 on: September 22, 2008, 11:54:28 AM »
then thats your belief mis dabinz. remember God move in mysterious ways and with all the miracles happened in this world you may can or cant tell that its not Gods image. but the point is it's better to pray infront of a statue than in a blankwall. in my view being raised in a catholic church i will never transfer to another religion unless it will really save my soul and they pay my bills. what the heck?

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Re: Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?
« Reply #52 on: September 22, 2008, 07:04:41 PM »
Amen!


For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
-Isaiah 55:9

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Re: Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?
« Reply #53 on: September 23, 2008, 02:07:30 AM »
then thats your belief mis dabinz. remember God move in mysterious ways and with all the miracles happened in this world you may can or cant tell that its not Gods image. but the point is it's better to pray infront of a statue than in a blankwall. in my view being raised in a catholic church i will never transfer to another religion unless it will really save my soul and they pay my bills. what the heck?



Then are you believing a religion can save one's soul? hell no!

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Re: Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?
« Reply #54 on: September 23, 2008, 02:23:18 AM »

Yes the picture of yuor father is really your father, but the picture of Jesus was not even Jesus. For Heaven's sake who have ever seen Jesus?
sa marbo kita ko 3 ka jesus

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hmmmmm

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Re: Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?
« Reply #55 on: September 23, 2008, 08:23:54 AM »
I'M NOT SAYING ITS A GUARANTEE THATS THE CATHOLIC CHURCH OR A RELIGION IS THE ASSURANCE IN HEAVEN! WE ALL KNOW THAT.

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oliver

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Re: Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?
« Reply #56 on: September 23, 2008, 08:53:06 AM »
Folks,
    As logical as you imply, there are many ways of killing a cat. Point being! you are all arguing about  translation differences.
    God will not judge us by our imperfection, but by faith in Jesus, therefore, get rid of that statue, read the bible yourself and prrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrraaaaaaaaaaaayyy to find your conviction..and the presence of the holy spirit in your heart. God is spirit, and is worship in spirit...oh did i hang myself?
   This would be the same issue of - Should priest marry or not? find GOd thru prayers and mediation of His word" the bible", then all of us will find peace and fulfillment in our faith.
 

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LEOGIRL

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Re: Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?
« Reply #57 on: September 23, 2008, 08:56:18 AM »
Agree on you brod.  For me, it is not the images I worship but the Lord.  About Mother Mary and the saints, it is not them I prayed, but I just asked their help to help me pray to the Lord to hear my prayers.  Especially Mother Mary coz she is the most faithful to the Lord.


Catholics agree that Jesus is the sole mediator between God and man, but that in no way makes prayer to the saints useless or wrong.

Many times one finds the New Testament recommending intercessory prayer (cf. Col 1:9; 2 Thes 1:11; 2 Thes 3:1; Jas 5:16), and very few Christians seem to have a problem with seeking the prayers of a fellow believer. A difficulty appears to emerge only when that believer has left this earth. But what difference should that make to one who affirms the resurrection of the dead? After all, we read that all are alive in Christ (cf. 1 Cor 15:22).

To recap, then, Jesus Christ is the sole mediator between God and man. No other person in heaven or on earth can take His place. The role of Mary or any other saint is to lead the believer to Christ. This subordinate form of mediation derives its meaning and efficacy from the Lord Himself and is not something the saints possess on their own.

Intercessory prayer is a powerful expression of the beautiful doctrine of the Communion of Saints whereby the saints in heaven, the souls in purgatory, and the faithful on earth are involved and concerned with one another's eternal salvation. Intercessory prayer declares our love for one another in the Church, as well as our faith that the bonds to Christ and His Church forged in baptism cannot be dissolved by death.

--

 As pointed out above, the teaching of the Church is clear: Jesus Christ is the sole mediator between God and man. No other person in heaven or on earth can take His place. The role of Mary or any other saint is to lead the believer to Christ. This subordinate form of mediation derives its meaning and effectiveness from the Lord Himself and is not something the saints possess on their own. Therefore, it is important to distinguish between the adoration owed to the Persons of the Blessed Trinity and the veneration given to the saints.

Similarly, Catholics use medals and statues, but not as talismans or as objects of worship in violation of the First Commandment. Rather, these things are intended to be reminders or aids to devotion which focus one's attention on prayer and the practice of virtue. It would be a rare husband who did not carry in his wallet a photo of his wife and children, not because he worships the photo or his family, but because he loves his family and wishes to have a visual representation of them on his person. Nor have I ever heard a Fundamentalist take offense at the presence of statues of our country's heroes at national monuments. If the heroes of the nation can be so honored, why not the heroes of the Church? Catholics use sacred art in just this way, never fashioning "idols" for false worship.

Prayer to Mary (or to any of the other saints) is not an end in itself but is intended to be a means by which one is led to a deeper union with her Son. Classical spirituality even had a Latin maxim to illustrate the point: Ad Jesum per Mariam ("To Jesus through Mary"). True devotion to Mary never obscures the uniqueness of Christ because Catholics know that the only command of Mary recorded in the Scriptures is one that must be scrupulously obeyed: "Do whatever he [Jesus] tells you" (Jn 2:5).

In the final analysis, devotion to the saints can best be appreciated when one sees the saints in glory as the friends of God and fellow members of the household of faith. If our Fundamentalist friends are to understand this aspect of Catholic spirituality, that is probably the grounds which will make the most sense to them.

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Lorenzo

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Re: Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?
« Reply #58 on: September 23, 2008, 09:06:35 AM »
To you my brothers and sisters,
Catholics, Protestants, Orthodox etc,


Do not harken to the words of people. Do not let the words of people reduce your own faith and dimmer your path toward Christ Jesus.

Pray and continue to PRAY in the spirit and in the manner of which PROVIDENCE has chosen for you. And called you.

Mind not the words of men. As man does not judge your eternal soul in the end. It is in the NAME OF ALMIGHTY GOD who calls us to His Son, Christ Jesus.

Peace be with all of you.


In the Name of Jesus Christ, Our Lord.

Trust your own faith! As the Holy Spirit dwells within ALL of Us.





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Re: Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?
« Reply #59 on: September 23, 2008, 09:08:07 AM »
Agree on you brod.  For me, it is not the images I worship but the Lord.  About Mother Mary and the saints, it is not them I prayed, but I just asked their help to help me pray to the Lord to hear my prayers.  Especially Mother Mary coz she is the most faithful to the Lord.



Amen to you, sister!

And I pray that your faith is invigorated!

May our Lord continue to shine His graces on Us.

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Lorenzo

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Re: Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?
« Reply #60 on: September 23, 2008, 09:19:37 AM »
Folks,
    As logical as you imply, there are many ways of killing a cat. Point being! you are all arguing about  translation differences.
    God will not judge us by our imperfection, but by faith in Jesus, therefore, get rid of that statue, read the bible yourself and prrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrraaaaaaaaaaaayyy to find your conviction..and the presence of the holy spirit in your heart. God is spirit, and is worship in spirit...oh did i hang myself?
   This would be the same issue of - Should priest marry or not? find GOd thru prayers and mediation of His word" the bible", then all of us will find peace and fulfillment in our faith.
 

Amen, Brother.

Sacred Scripture in lieu with Sacred Tradition, gives one a better understanding.

Kita tanan mga tawo naa daghang sala. Walay yamo tawo diri sa yuta nang wa yamo ug sala. Tanan, kita tanan.

But all, despite our imperfections, faults and sins, are offeredthe promises of Christ. It depends on the individual to accept His grace into our own life.

Amen! I say to you, Amen!

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Lorenzo

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Re: Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?
« Reply #61 on: September 23, 2008, 10:02:02 AM »
Agree on you brod.  For me, it is not the images I worship but the Lord.  About Mother Mary and the saints, it is not them I prayed, but I just asked their help to help me pray to the Lord to hear my prayers.  Especially Mother Mary coz she is the most faithful to the Lord.



And you are correct, Sister.

When we ask for consolation and pray for the Blessed Mary to pray for us, it is in lieu with sacred scripture.

As it is said,

"My soul proclaims the greatness of the LORD,
my spirit rejoices in GOD my saviour.
For he has looked upon this handmaid's lowliness;
behold, from now on will ages call me Blessed. "
--Luke 1: 46-47


And she is Blessed, who was chosen out of all the women because of her Holiness and because of her faith in the Lord. To bear in her womb, the Lord God. When Jesus Christ was a baby, he was protected and fed by Blessed Mary. And even in his ministries and unto His death, His mother, Blessed Mary, was there with him even unto the very end.


Thus, it is reiterated in prayer:

Hail Mary!
Full of Grace!
Blessed are you amongst women!
And Blessed is the Fruit of thy own womb, Jesus!

Holy Mary!
Mother of God!
Pray for US, Sinners
Now, and at the hour of OUR death.

AMEN


:)

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ms da binsi

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Re: Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?
« Reply #62 on: September 23, 2008, 10:17:52 AM »
Folks,
    As logical as you imply, there are many ways of killing a cat. Point being! you are all arguing about  translation differences.
    God will not judge us by our imperfection, but by faith in Jesus, therefore, get rid of that statue, read the bible yourself and prrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrraaaaaaaaaaaayyy to find your conviction..and the presence of the holy spirit in your heart. God is spirit, and is worship in spirit...oh did i hang myself?
   This would be the same issue of - Should priest marry or not? find GOd thru prayers and mediation of His word" the bible", then all of us will find peace and fulfillment in our faith.
 


Mao jud...

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buwadsanga

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Re: Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?
« Reply #63 on: September 23, 2008, 03:24:53 PM »
AMEN to you Lorenzo and LeoGirl.

Long live the Holy Roman Catholic Church and with all The Saints! Who proclaim the glory of God from St. Peter to Pope Benedict for more than a thousand years!

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Way Nada

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Re: Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?
« Reply #64 on: September 23, 2008, 03:29:52 PM »

Yes the picture of yuor father is really your father, but the picture of Jesus was not even Jesus. For Heaven's sake who have ever seen Jesus?

Ms. Da Binsi,

You are correct! No person has ever seen Jesus, even among the people believed to be the first Christians, they mentioned Christ in their writings but not Jesus. The people I am refering to were the Essenes. These are also the people mentioned by Josephus in his historical records as the people who wanted to separate away from Judaism. By the way, Josephus was a Jewish historian whose writings date back to the time of Jesus in the bible.

The Essenes were also the people who were waiting for the coming of Christ and the end of the world. In modern times they can be called as a doomsday cult.

The worship of statues were already practiced by the first Christians. The Greeks were amazed by the way the Jews practiced their religion because they worshipped only one God and without idols in their temple. During those times all other religions worshipped idols except Judaism. The Jews used to call them idolaters. In Greek mythology they worshipped their gods and godesses symbolized by idols and statues. When the Greeks started preaching Christianity they portrayed the statue of the apostles in Greek clothing and not in Jewish clothing.

When Constantine the Great the emperor of Rome was converted to Christianity he incorporated all religions into  the Roman Empire and the more the worship of idols and paganism was strengthened. The religion of Rome which is Mithraism was incorporated with Catholicism, which is why there are Catholic religious practices today that originated from pagan Rome. Modern teaching of the church today prohibits in the worship of idols. Even if the essence is not to worship idols the majority of the catholic faithful who are naive and ignorant of the teaching of the Church still cannot get rid of old habits of worshipping statues and idols.

WN

         

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rayborze

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Re: Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?
« Reply #65 on: September 27, 2008, 01:08:53 PM »
Hello Bohol,

kumusta na!

I think i will approve to what my brother or sister WN has stated, If we only study the Bible and understand what it says, it is plain and simple. I think the problem is, wrong theology and wrong doctrine. I recommend reading the gospel according to Jesus written by John Mcarthur, it might help those who are confused. You see if you are exposed to wrong doctrine and theology, it's only a matter of time. Jesus said a good tree cannot bear bad fruit nor a bad tree bear good fruit...we must take it to the very core of our being, who we really are and what are we wired to do, but before we can experience truth or freedom we must be broken and contrite then perhaps the Lord Jesus through His Holy Spirit will dwell in us as the scripture has said.

We can spend a lifetime debating just about anything, but if an individual is not baptize by the Holy Spirit, everything is just but knowledge.

By their fruits you will know them, their is a way that seemed right to a man, but it's end is death.

God is not coming to those people who are religious,wise in their own understanding,or anything that is opposite of the character of the Holy Spirit....

I think we all know who the Holy Spirit Is, If we do then we should understand each other because it is one Spirit that proceeds from the Father>>>


cheers
rayborze

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Re: Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?
« Reply #66 on: September 30, 2008, 02:18:46 AM »
Good Morning to Everyone, May the Love of Christ continue to flourish in our hearts,


Dear Ray,

There is something wrong in your rhetoric, which is rather condemning of many people and the manner of spiritual worship. It is an unhealthy view, Ray, to be hold such condemnatory view point. Especially when that particular theology has been the very basis and footstool of biblical discourse throughout the past millennium.

I recommend you, Ray, to read Proverbs 2: The Blessing of Wisdom . A healthy understanding of history and religious discourse increases one's understanding and the grace of understanding is a gift of the Holy Spirit, my dear friend.

As did not our Savior, Christ Jesus go unto the Temple and discuss with the priests and learned men on religious theology?

Sacred Scripture declares:

When Joseph and Mary had done everything required by the Law of the Lord, they returned to Galilee to their own town of Nazareth. And the child grew and became strong; he was filled with wisdom, and the grace of God was upon him.Every year his parents went to Jerusalem for the Feast of the Passover. When he was twelve years old, they went up to the Feast, according to the custom. After the Feast was over, while his parents were returning home, the boy Jesus stayed behind in Jerusalem, but they were unaware of it. Thinking he was in their company, they traveled on for a day. Then they began looking for him among their relatives and friends. When they did not find him, they went back to Jerusalem to look for him. After three days they found him in the temple courts, sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions. Everyone who heard him was amazed at his understanding and his answers. When his parents saw him, they were astonished. His mother said to him, "Son, why have you treated us like this? Your father and I have been anxiously searching for you."
"Why were you searching for me?" he asked. "Didn't you know I had to be in my Father's house?" But they did not understand what he was saying to them. Then he went down to Nazareth with them and was obedient to them. But his mother treasured all these things in her heart. And Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men.


--Luke 2:39-52




Ray,

Additionally, no where does the Lord Jesus Christ condemns the worship of His name and the glories of His Father. In actuality, the Lord Jesus Christ, when confronted about the news of people driving demons away from people in HIS Name, the Lord Jesus Christ accepted it and glorified them and their acts.

Sacred Scripture declares:

Then he sat down, called the Twelve, and said to them, "If anyone wishes to be first, he shall be the last of all and the servant of all." Taking a child he placed it in their midst, and putting his arms around it he said to them, " Whoever receives one child such as this in my name, receives me; and whoever receives me, receives not me but the one who sent me."
John said to him, "Teacher, we saw someone driving out demons in your name, and we tried to prevent him because he does not follow us." Jesus replied, "Do not prevent him. There is no one who performs a mighty deed in my name who can at the same time speak ill of me.

For whoever is not against us is for us.


--Mark 9: 36-40



Christ Jesus, God Blessed Forever, personally rectifies the works of those who glorify HIS name and call upon HIS name. Had the Lord Jesus Christ not, then he would have made it known by rebuking those who did works in His name. Am I right? The Lord accepted it. And reiterated the powerful and loving phrase of "For whoever is not against us is for us."

The teachings and participation of Catholics, Orthodox, Anglicans, Protestants in church activity have the ultimate goal in glorifying the Lord and His Father in Heaven.

And ultimately, brother Ray, you need to keep your mind on that main picture.


Amen I say to you and all of you my beloved brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus!

---
Judge not, that ye be not judged.

For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
--Matthew 7: 1-3



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Lorenzo

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Re: Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?
« Reply #67 on: September 30, 2008, 02:26:58 AM »
Again, I want to make it known that Jesus Christ, Lord God who is Blessed Forever, The Word Incarnate, reiterates and calls the Temple and Religious Center as the 'My Father's House'. You can see this in Luke 2.

As all churches, be they Roman Catholic, Conservative Orthodox, Coptic, Anglican, Lutheran, Baptist, Presbyterian, Methodist are the Houses of God.

:)



May the Lord Jesus Christ Bless all of US.

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Re: Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?
« Reply #68 on: September 30, 2008, 04:20:26 AM »
Ms. Da Binsi,

You are correct! No person has ever seen Jesus, even among the people believed to be the first Christians, they mentioned Christ in their writings but not Jesus. The people I am refering to were the Essenes. These are also the people mentioned by Josephus in his historical records as the people who wanted to separate away from Judaism. By the way, Josephus was a Jewish historian whose writings date back to the time of Jesus in the bible.

The Essenes were also the people who were waiting for the coming of Christ and the end of the world. In modern times they can be called as a doomsday cult.

The worship of statues were already practiced by the first Christians. The Greeks were amazed by the way the Jews practiced their religion because they worshipped only one God and without idols in their temple. During those times all other religions worshipped idols except Judaism. The Jews used to call them idolaters. In Greek mythology they worshipped their gods and godesses symbolized by idols and statues. When the Greeks started preaching Christianity they portrayed the statue of the apostles in Greek clothing and not in Jewish clothing.

When Constantine the Great the emperor of Rome was converted to Christianity he incorporated all religions into  the Roman Empire and the more the worship of idols and paganism was strengthened. The religion of Rome which is Mithraism was incorporated with Catholicism, which is why there are Catholic religious practices today that originated from pagan Rome. Modern teaching of the church today prohibits in the worship of idols. Even if the essence is not to worship idols the majority of the catholic faithful who are naive and ignorant of the teaching of the Church still cannot get rid of old habits of worshipping statues and idols.

WN

         


That is why, Way Nada, it is supplemental for us to learn and read the bible in the original Hebrew, Greek, Latin and understand the transliteration of each. Ultimately, though, the main theme should not be lost in the processes of time and historical discourse that has happened throughout the past 2 millenias.

Sacred Scripture, either it be in the original Hebrew, Greek and Latin have the same theme and conceptus as in the English transliteration (as well as other lingual versions). Let us not loose the sight of that, shall we?

As for the matter concerning Emperor Constantine I of the Roman Empire, his conversion into Christianity and reasons for it are far more complex than what you provided. I've taken classes (in undergraduate college) on Roman History, as well as Christian History and I submit that it is one of a journey.

Emperor Constantine (Flavius Valerius Aurelius Constantinus) was influenced to Christianity even before his rise to the thrown of Emperorship. Rather, Constantine's own mother, Helena, was a christian convert, one of the few who practiced christianity in the catacombs of Rome for fear of being caught. Which was, then, punishable by death in the gladiatorial games. Christianity was already introduced to Constantine and one that played a role in his life since it eventually lead to his conversion. His own mother, Helena, made a special pilgrimage to the Holy Land to visit the site of Jesus' crucifixion.

Constantine's conversion to Christianity occured in the Battle of Milvian Bridge, where it is said that before the battle, Constantine had a dream of his victory against the Emperor Maxentius the Great. Both of whom were vying for the Imperial Throne. When both armies were rallied forth to begin the battle, Constantine was said to have been riding his horse and looked to the sky and saw Cross where the sun was at. And with it were the words in Latin "In Hoc Signo Vinces" which is translated to "By this, Conquer!"

In his glorious epiphany, Constantine ordered his legions to adorn their shields with the sign of the Chi-Ro, which, in Greek, means 'CHRIST'. {ΧΡΙΣΤΟΣ}

Roman legions went to war with their standards, and for centuries it was always the Roman Eagle that was adorned in battle. Many Roman generals and emperors such as Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius, Hadrian, Diocletian etc went to war with the Roman Eagle as standard. Since the dawn of the Roman Republic, the Roman Eagle was fashioned to battle from the Punic Wars, the Greco Wars, the Thracian Wars, Parthian Wars, Gaulic Wars, Visigothian Wars, Slavic Wars etc.

However, Constantine not only did he order his legions to adorn the Chi-Ro on their shields, which is Greek for 'CHRIST', as I said before. He also ordered the removal of the Roman Eagle on their standard and had it replaced with the Christian Cross.

Suffice to say, Constantine's victory against Emperor Maxentius, who was a Pagan, is symbolism of Providence's own blessing. The WILL of Providence.

It is also important to know that the office of the Roman Emperor, as indicated by Augustus's Precepts some 3 centuries before the time of Constantine, made it mandatory to offer Divine praises to the Emperor and the Office of the Emperor. The cult of the Emperor, one can dare say. The coronation of an emperor and his rise to the seat of power included a speech to the Senatorium as well as required the newly-crowned emperor to offer sacrifices to the Pantheon of Deities. After the sacrifices were made, then could the newly-crowned emperor take the seat in the Imperial Palace.


Constantine was different compared to his predecessors. How was he different?

Following the Battle of Milvian Bridge, Constantine ignored the altars to the Roman gods prepared on the Capitoline to receive sacrifices appropriate for the celebration of his victorious entry into Rome, and the new emperor instead went straight to the imperial palace without performing any sacrifice. Constantine, unlike his predecessors, was rather insular and introverted and did not like it when Divine Praises were given to him by Senators, Generals, Plebeians, Priests etc. Normally, Roman Emperors of the past would have prided themselves in being referred to as Gods as well as many of them demanded the citizenry to offer sacrifice to their own divinity.

Constantine was different in that he rejected Divine praises on his persona. Additionally, upon taking the throne of Rome, his refusal and rejection of offering sacrifices to the Roman gods angered and alienated him amongst the members of the Senatorium and from many pagans in the city.

Constantine, upon his first year term as Emperor, passed the Edict of Milan. Which legalized the practice of christianity and ordered the return of all confiscated christian buildings, churches, relics and writings. All christians who were imprisoned because of their religion were released by the order of the Emperor himself.

Constantine's action made him target of multiple assassination attempts, and by the Grace of God, survived them.

Constantine's own legal reforms reflected his own Christian zealotry. Constantine's laws enforced and reflected his Christian reforms. Crucifixion was abolished for reasons of Christian piety, but was replaced with hanging, to show there was Roman law and justice. Sunday was declared the official day of rest, on which markets were banned and public offices were closed. Constantine also ordered the creation and proliferation of bibles throughout the Empire!

One can even dare say that he was an early Christian evangelist!





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Lorenzo

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Re: Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?
« Reply #69 on: September 30, 2008, 04:24:15 AM »
(CONTINUED)




In a letter to the King of Persia, Constantine wrote how he shunned the "abominable blood and hateful odors" of pagan sacrifices, and instead worshiped the High God "on bended knee".

When he sat on the Roman Throne and in the new capital city he built, Constantine made sure that there were no pagan temples built.

During the course of his life he progressively became more Christian and turned away from any syncretic tendencies he appeared to favor at times and thus demonstrating, according to his biographers, that "The God of the Christians was indeed a jealous God who tolerated no other gods beside him. The Church could never acknowledge that she stood on the same plane with other religious bodies, she conquered for herself one domain after another"

According to the historian Ramsay MacMullen Constantine desired to obliterate non-Christians but lacking the means he had to be content with robbing their temples towards the end of his reign.
He resorted to derogatory and contemptuous comments relating to the old religion; writing of the "obstinacy" of the pagans, of their "misguided rites and ceremonial", and of their "temples of lying" contrasted with "the splendours of the home of truth".





I dare to say, WN, Constantine, in actuality was a VEHEMENT Christian. Given the time he was in and the means that he had. He did so much given the limitations.

:)


CHRIST IS LOVE.


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Re: Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?
« Reply #70 on: September 30, 2008, 04:29:00 AM »
(CONTINUED)

Constantine was over 40 when he finally declared himself a Christian, publically, to the dismay of his colleagues in the Senate and the Military (The majority of Romans were still PAGAN).

Writing to Christians, Constantine made clear that he owed his successes to the protection of that High God alone.

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Re: Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?
« Reply #71 on: September 30, 2008, 04:49:04 AM »
The Roman Catholic Church is the direct line of the Early Christians in Rome, the very same ones who prayed in the catacombs, who celebrated Eucharist, the very same ones who passed on the stories of Christ and His Miracles that is written in scripture.

It is important to know that there is a logical reason for the presence of symbolism in the church fathers of the past. Naturally, when the disciples of Christ such as Peter went to Rome and preached the message of Christ, the majority of those who listened and converted were illiterate. Literacy in those times were rare; secured only for the elite aristocracy of Roman political life or military families.

The majority of Romans were illiterate. The way teachings and glorification of Christ and His Word was passed on to converts was by oratory means and by physically professing their faith. This is where Sacred Tradition comes in line and joins the milieu of Christian Scripture.

The traditions we see in Catholic Church are the same ones (identical) to the early christians who professed their faith in fear of death! Many early Catholics prayed and gathered in the catacombs to share the word of God; as it was the only way to practice their faith without getting caught.

It is the Catholic Christians who are mentioned to us who died as martyrs of Christ.
Devoured by lions, speared, burned alive, skinned alive, beheaded, mauled to death etc; but NEVER refusing to relinquish their faith in Christ!

The zealotry of our early Catholics! I pray that we Catholics could have the same zealotry of our brothers and sisters of the past. To battle the storms that come at us.

And to never loose our sight of Christ Jesus.

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Lorenzo

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Re: Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?
« Reply #72 on: September 30, 2008, 08:41:52 AM »
Ms. Da Binsi,

You are correct! No person has ever seen Jesus, even among the people believed to be the first Christians, they mentioned Christ in their writings but not Jesus. The people I am refering to were the Essenes. These are also the people mentioned by Josephus in his historical records as the people who wanted to separate away from Judaism. By the way, Josephus was a Jewish historian whose writings date back to the time of Jesus in the bible.

The Essenes were also the people who were waiting for the coming of Christ and the end of the world. In modern times they can be called as a doomsday cult.

The worship of statues were already practiced by the first Christians. The Greeks were amazed by the way the Jews practiced their religion because they worshipped only one God and without idols in their temple. During those times all other religions worshipped idols except Judaism. The Jews used to call them idolaters. In Greek mythology they worshipped their gods and godesses symbolized by idols and statues. When the Greeks started preaching Christianity they portrayed the statue of the apostles in Greek clothing and not in Jewish clothing.

When Constantine the Great the emperor of Rome was converted to Christianity he incorporated all religions into  the Roman Empire and the more the worship of idols and paganism was strengthened. The religion of Rome which is Mithraism was incorporated with Catholicism, which is why there are Catholic religious practices today that originated from pagan Rome. Modern teaching of the church today prohibits in the worship of idols. Even if the essence is not to worship idols the majority of the catholic faithful who are naive and ignorant of the teaching of the Church still cannot get rid of old habits of worshipping statues and idols.

WN

         


Way Nada,

Historians and Theologians who have poured their resources in the analysis of the historiography of biblical history as well as contextual history agree that Constantine I, who you question gregariously, as being a direct contributing factor of the proliferation of the major Christian ideology that most of us have.

Christians believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, who was sent to Earth from Heaven, was born of the Virgin Mary and became Man. He taught and preached his ministry until he was arrested by the Jews and condmned by the Romans, by request of the Jews and was crucified, was buried and rose on the third day. We, being Christians, believe that there was a resurrection of the Lord. Both in terms of the physical and spiritual.

This christian ideology that we have, that all christian denominations ranging from two original churches: The Roman Catholic Church or the Christian Orthodox Church, to major protestant denominations such as Methodism, Lutheranism, Baptism, Presbyterianism so on and so forth.

It is inarguable and manifest. It was Emperor Constantine I of Rome who called the First Council of Nicea, which was the first Ecumenical council of the (Roman Catholic) Christian Church, and most significantly resulted in the first uniform Christian doctrine, called the Nicene Creed.

 The Nicene Creed being:

"We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
and was made man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen. "



With the creation of the creed, a precedent was established for subsequent general (ecumenical) councils of Bishops' (Synods) to create statements of belief and canons of doctrinal orthodoxy— the intent being to define unity of beliefs for the whole of Christendom.

Before the First Nicean Council, there were different views on the nature of Jesus Christ in relation to The Father. In particular, whether Jesus was of the same substance as God the Father or merely of similar substance. The Council of Nicea also focused on the importance of the RESURRECTION of Christ Jesus.

To which, that very ideology, lives and beats its truth to many christian churches to this day.

Not many know that the Nicean Council was that of a ROMAN CATHOLIC ORIGIN, which was organized and called upon by the ROMAN EMPEROR CONSTANTINUS I. In measure, did, by right of history and christian message spreading to the 4 corners of the earth, was successful in bringing the message of Jesus Christ to nations and peoples who did not know of the grace and salvation that was offered for them, beforehand.

It is inarguably evident, Way Nada, that Constantine has played a magnanimous role in the proliferation of Christian ideology, to which we all share.

I submit to the fact that the rise of Constantine I correlated to the rise of Christianity AND Christendom itself and the beginning of the evangelization of the World. I submit to the fact that Constantine, by the Grace of Almighty Providence, was able to make such accomplishments in His Name. And I submit to the fact that The Lord God of Heaven and the Holy Spirit was alive and strong in the man that was Constantine I of Rome.


Amen!


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Lorenzo

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Re: Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?
« Reply #73 on: October 08, 2008, 01:45:02 PM »
The Bible Indicates that In Addition to the Written Word, we are to accept Oral Tradition.
Perhaps the clearest Biblical support for oral tradition can be found in 2 Thessalonians 2:14, where Christians are actually commanded: "Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle."

Sacred Tradition complements our understanding of the Bible and is therefore not some extraneous source of Revelation which contains doctrines that are foreign to it. Quite the contrary: Sacred Tradition serves as the Church’s living memory, reminding her of what the faithful have constantly and consistently believed and who to properly understand and interpret the meaning of Biblical passages. In a certain way, it is Sacred Tradition which says to the reader of the Bible "You have been reading a very important book which contains God’s revelation to man. Now let me explain to you how it has always been understood and practiced by believers from the very beginning."

The Catholic Church emphasized that the Scriptures must be read in light of the apostolic Tradition that was handed down through the ages.
As Saint Peter writes in his epistle, Scripture is not a matter of personal interpretation.
It therefore must mean that it is a matter of public interpretation, and that is the interpretation of the Church.

The Church has always encouraged reading the Scriptures.

In fact, the Catholic Church is the one who first translated the Scriptures into the vernacular.
Since the Catholic Church holds that the Bible is not sufficient in itself, it naturally teaches that the Bible needs an interpreter. The reason the Catholic Church so teaches is twofold: first, because Christ established a living Church to teach with His authority. He did not simply give His disciples a Bible, whole and entire, and tell them to go out and make copies of it for mass distribution and allow people to come to whatever interpretation they may. Second, the Bible itself states that it needs an interpreter.

The doctrine of Sola Scriptura overlooks – or at least grossly underemphasizes – the fact that the Church came before the Bible, and not the other way around. It was the Church, in effect, which wrote the Bible under the inspiration of Almighty God: the Israelites as the Old Testament Church (or "pre-Catholics") and the early Catholics as the New Testament Church.

To say that the early Church believed in the notion of "the Bible alone" would be analogous to saying that men and women today could entertain the thought that our civil laws could function without Congress to legislate them, without courts to interpret them and without police to enforce them. All we would need is a sufficient supply of legal volumes in every household so that each citizen could determine for himself how to understand and apply any given law. Such an assertion is absurd, of course, as no one could possibly expect civil laws to function in this manner. The consequence of such a state of affairs would undoubtedly be total anarchy.

Since the Bible did not come with an inspired table of contents, the doctrine of Sola Scriptura creates yet another dilemma: How can one know with certainty which books belong in the Bible – specifically, in the New Testament? The unadulterated fact is that one cannot know unless there is an authority outside the Bible which can tell him. Moreover, this authority must, by necessity, be infallible, since the possibility of error in identifying the canon of the Bible would mean that all believers run the risk of having the wrong books in their Bibles, a situation which would vitiate Sola Scriptura. But if there is such an infallible authority, then the doctrine of Sola Scriptura crumbles.

Another historical fact very difficult to reconcile with the doctrine of Sola Scriptura is that it was none other than the Catholic Church which eventually identified and ratified the canon of the Bible. The three councils mentioned above were all councils of this Church. The Catholic Church gave its final, definitive, infallible definition of the Biblical canon a the Council of Trent in 1546 – naming the very same list of 73 books that had been included in the 4th century. If the Catholic Church is able, then, to render an authoritative and infallible decision concerning such an important matter as which books belong in the Bible, then upon what basis would a person question its authority on other matters of faith and morals?


God Bless,

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fdaray

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Re: Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?
« Reply #74 on: November 07, 2008, 12:11:09 PM »
The Ten Commandments: The Second Commandment - Do not worship idols
Introduction
Do you think you really know the 10 Commandments? How about the 2nd one which says we are not to have any "graven" or "carved" images? What does that mean? Is it OK to own a statue of any kind? Some religions misunderstand the second commandment; they combine the second commandment with the first. (Read the 1st commandment in Exodus 20:3 or Deuteronomy 5:7. What does it actually say?) The first commandment has to do with WHOM we worship, while the second commandment has to do with HOW we worship the true and only God. In this study guide, the meaning of the second commandment will be explored.

Commandment stated
EXODUS 20:4-6 "You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

Some people use pictures, images, or objects to REPRESENT God in their worship. How do we know that such use of art is sin?

DEUTERONOMY 4:15-16 " Take careful heed to yourselves, for you saw no form when the LORD spoke to you at Horeb out of the midst of the fire, lest you act corruptly and make for yourselves a carved image in the form of any figure…."

What was one important point that God told Moses to record about their conversation on Mt. Sinai (Horeb)?
COMMENT: Moses spoke with God and God spoke with Moses but Moses did not see God directly. Therefore we can have no detailed idea of the exact form and shape of God other than Gen 1:26. It would be presumptuous of us to think that we could design or even think up anything representational of God.

1. Why would God not approve of using an object as an aid in worshipping Him?

2. How can images, pictures, or symbols such as crucifixes interfere with proper worship?

3. Is it possible to make an image of God that is true to reality? Why or why not?

4. What about pictures or images of Jesus? Does this commandment prohibit depictions of Jesus? Why do you think so?

5. In Exodus 20:5, what does the word "jealous" mean?

6. How would you react if someone misrepresented you? What consequences occur when someone is not represented correctly?

COMMENT: For God to allow anything to represent Him, which no image or picture can, God would have to accept false witness. God jealously protects His character and Being. Read Isaiah 42:8.

7. Why should we be glad that God is jealous for His people? What is the difference between being jealous OF someone and being jealous FOR someone?

8. What does the expression "visiting the iniquity of the fathers" mean?

9. How does it get passed from generation to generation?

10. How does God distinguish between those who hate Him and those who love Him?

11. To whom does God show mercy?

Christ's words
JOHN 4:23-24 "But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."

1. How are we to worship God?

2. How can we conceive of God without images?

Some Scriptures to Consider
Read Judges 17. Note how Micah chose to worship God (verses 3,12). Do you think Micah was close to God? Why or why not?

I SAMUEL 4:2-8,10 Then the Philistines put themselves in battle array against Israel. And when they joined battle, Israel was defeated by the Philistines…. And when the people had come into the camp, the elders of Israel said, "Why has the LORD defeated us today before the Philistines? Let us bring the ark of the covenant of the LORD from Shiloh to us, that when it comes among us it may save us from the hand of our enemies." So the people sent to Shiloh, that they might bring from there the ark of the covenant of the LORD of hosts, who dwells between the cherubim…. And when the ark of the covenant of the LORD came into the camp, all Israel shouted so loudly that the earth shook. Now when the Philistines heard the noise of the shout, they said, "What does the sound of this great shout in the camp of the Hebrews mean?" Then they understood that the ark of the LORD had come into the camp. So the Philistines were afraid, for they said, "God has come into the camp!" And they said, "Woe to us! … Who will deliver us from the hand of these mighty gods? These are the gods who struck the Egyptians with all the plagues in the wilderness. (10) So the Philistines fought, and Israel was defeated….. There was a very great slaughter, and there fell of Israel thirty thousand foot soldiers.

1. Why did Israel believe the Ark of the Covenant would protect them?

COMMENT: Often people venerate an object that represents God rather than fearing and obeying God Himself. Israel trusted God would defeat their enemies because the Ark which represented God was in their presence. In truth, however, they were not close to God.

NUMBERS 21:8-9 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and it shall be that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, shall live." So Moses made a bronze serpent, and put it on a pole; and so it was, if a serpent had bitten anyone, when he looked at the bronze serpent, he lived.

Moses made an image of a snake. Why did this not violate the second commandment?
Does the second commandment forbid all works of art that represent earthly or heavenly things? How can one prove it does or doesn't? (HINT: read HEBREWS 8:1-5; 9:23-24).

Summary
1. What is the difference between the first and second commandments?

2. Name some ways in which the second commandment is broken.

3. Explain how worshipping with images or pictures prevents worshipping in spirit and truth.

4. What changes would occur in the world if everyone obeyed the second commandment?


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Re: Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?
« Reply #75 on: November 19, 2008, 10:44:41 AM »
ako ninjo mag dama, anaa pay makadaug!! he he

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Re: Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?
« Reply #76 on: November 19, 2008, 12:09:21 PM »
Very well said Daray!  good job sir1

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Re: Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?
« Reply #77 on: November 19, 2008, 12:23:54 PM »
basta ako kung muworship si Lord, dili ang image..
the image is just a visible representation of the unseen God.

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Re: Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?
« Reply #78 on: November 19, 2008, 04:07:41 PM »
First of all, I would like to commend all those in this inter-faith dialogue. And I think this discussion has provided the communication basis for understanding and enlightening of some aspects of the Roman Catholic Church, the Original Christian Faith, from which All other Christian denominations sprang forth.

So let me correct some misinterpretations some of you have concerning the Holy Roman Catholic Church.


Protestant apologists claim that the Catholic Church dropped the Second Commandment in order to allow its common practice of worshiping images, alleging that the Catholic Church condones the worship of images. To the Catholic this makes no sense. No good Catholic worships images. The reason that images are explicitly forbidden in Deuteronomy is because some of the ancient Jews really worshiped them, the images themselves, as gods. No Catholic worships statues or any kind of images. So to command that no false gods be worshiped in one commandment and then to command that images are not to be made in another commandment is very redundant. The single commandment not to worship false gods obviously covers the worshiping of images. And God does not forbid the making of graven images; see below.


Dividing Deuteronomy 21 into two commandments makes sense because lust and greed (avarice) are two different things; this division is more logical than lumping them together into one commandment. This lumping together also comes very close to categorizing women as property, which they are not. The Protestant reformers adopted their version of the Ten Commandments when they adopted the Jewish Bible as a replacement for the Catholic Bible. The Jewish Ten Commandments is similar to the Protestant because the Jews retained their traditional version which goes back to the time when image worship was a big problem. [The next article will address the difference between the Protestant and the Catholic Bibles]. When the early Church numbered the Ten Commandments, image worship was not a problem among the early Christians and a commandment to forbid their creation was deemed unnecessary.


Images and statues, to a Catholic, are no different than photographs of loved ones who have passed away. They simply serve to remind us of them and to help us focus on their memory and hence they are a way of venerating loved ones, of giving reverence. This is not worshiping. To a Catholic, only God is worthy of worship and adoration. [There are different levels of worship: latria versus dulia and hyperdulia; latria being the highest form, that reserved for God alone, which is what is being talked about here. The expression, "He worships the very ground she walks on" is an example of dulia, i.e., worship at its lowest level; English is handicapped by having only one word, "worship," while Latin has more words for "worship"]. To look at some Catholics before some images, you might think they are worshiping. Perhaps there are some misguided Catholics who do attribute divine power to a saint represented in an image or statue. But this is wrong and these Catholics are in error. The teaching of the Church is always against the worship of false gods and attributing divine power to any saint would be false worship. The only "power" a saint possesses is that of intercession wherein a saint can pray for us, just as we can ask anyone to pray for us. For to a Catholic, the saints are not dead, but alive in heaven and, as part of our family, they can hear our prayers and pray for us just as any loved one can pray for us.


There are numerous places in the Old Testament where God commands the making of graven images ("graven" simply means "sculpted"): Exodus 25:18-21 (angels), Numbers 21:8-9 (a bronze serpent), 1 Kings 6:23-28 describes statues of angels in the temple, as does Ezechiel 41:17-25. So God does not forbid the making of graven images, but only the worship (latria) of them. Catholics do not even give dulia to graven images.



Through Christ Our Lord,

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