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Author Topic: Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?  (Read 11702 times)

ms da binsi

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Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?
« on: July 28, 2008, 11:10:03 AM »
Many believe that religious images help them to worship God. Is this view correct? How does God feel about the matter?



P.s. I just got this article today and find it very interesting to talk about....

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Lorenzo

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Re: Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?
« Reply #1 on: July 28, 2008, 11:16:56 AM »
 Catholics agree that Jesus is the sole mediator between God and man, but that in no way makes prayer to the saints useless or wrong.

Many times one finds the New Testament recommending intercessory prayer (cf. Col 1:9; 2 Thes 1:11; 2 Thes 3:1; Jas 5:16), and very few Christians seem to have a problem with seeking the prayers of a fellow believer. A difficulty appears to emerge only when that believer has left this earth. But what difference should that make to one who affirms the resurrection of the dead? After all, we read that all are alive in Christ (cf. 1 Cor 15:22).

To recap, then, Jesus Christ is the sole mediator between God and man. No other person in heaven or on earth can take His place. The role of Mary or any other saint is to lead the believer to Christ. This subordinate form of mediation derives its meaning and efficacy from the Lord Himself and is not something the saints possess on their own.

Intercessory prayer is a powerful expression of the beautiful doctrine of the Communion of Saints whereby the saints in heaven, the souls in purgatory, and the faithful on earth are involved and concerned with one another's eternal salvation. Intercessory prayer declares our love for one another in the Church, as well as our faith that the bonds to Christ and His Church forged in baptism cannot be dissolved by death.


--

 As pointed out above, the teaching of the Church is clear: Jesus Christ is the sole mediator between God and man. No other person in heaven or on earth can take His place. The role of Mary or any other saint is to lead the believer to Christ. This subordinate form of mediation derives its meaning and effectiveness from the Lord Himself and is not something the saints possess on their own. Therefore, it is important to distinguish between the adoration owed to the Persons of the Blessed Trinity and the veneration given to the saints.

Similarly, Catholics use medals and statues, but not as talismans or as objects of worship in violation of the First Commandment. Rather, these things are intended to be reminders or aids to devotion which focus one's attention on prayer and the practice of virtue. It would be a rare husband who did not carry in his wallet a photo of his wife and children, not because he worships the photo or his family, but because he loves his family and wishes to have a visual representation of them on his person. Nor have I ever heard a Fundamentalist take offense at the presence of statues of our country's heroes at national monuments. If the heroes of the nation can be so honored, why not the heroes of the Church? Catholics use sacred art in just this way, never fashioning "idols" for false worship.

Prayer to Mary (or to any of the other saints) is not an end in itself but is intended to be a means by which one is led to a deeper union with her Son. Classical spirituality even had a Latin maxim to illustrate the point: Ad Jesum per Mariam ("To Jesus through Mary"). True devotion to Mary never obscures the uniqueness of Christ because Catholics know that the only command of Mary recorded in the Scriptures is one that must be scrupulously obeyed: "Do whatever he [Jesus] tells you" (Jn 2:5).

In the final analysis, devotion to the saints can best be appreciated when one sees the saints in glory as the friends of God and fellow members of the household of faith. If our Fundamentalist friends are to understand this aspect of Catholic spirituality, that is probably the grounds which will make the most sense to them.

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musiclover0526

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Re: Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?
« Reply #2 on: July 28, 2008, 11:20:12 AM »

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ms da binsi

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Re: Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?
« Reply #3 on: July 28, 2008, 11:20:38 AM »
Dodong what about  Exodus 20:4, 5 that says...


"You must not make yourself a carved image or a form like anything that is in the heavens above or that is on the earth underneath or that is in the waters under the earth. You must not bow down to them nor be unduced to serve them, because I your God am a God exacting exclusive devotion."


"To no one else shal I give my own glory, neither my praise to graven images..."

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Re: Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?
« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2008, 11:21:29 AM »
morag kadungog ko ana nag kumbati og debate sa radio...

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Re: Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?
« Reply #5 on: July 28, 2008, 11:24:54 AM »
Dodong what about  Exodus 20:4, 5 that says...


"You must not make yourself a carved image or a form like anything that is in the heavens above or that is on the earth underneath or that is in the waters under the earth. You must not bow down to them nor be unduced to serve them, because I your God am a God exacting exclusive devotion."


"To no one else shal I give my own glory, neither my praise to graven images..."

This is one of the most common misconceptions about the Catholic faith. Many well-intentioned, God-loving Christians of various denominations have heard this mistruth from trusted but ignorant teachers over the years, or have read it in books that claim to “expose” what they believe to be the Catholic faith. Unfortunately, as with most misconceptions, these conclusions are drawn with little or no true understanding of the faith or of the practice, or the purpose in question.

Before I answer this question, I’d like to quote a wonderful man of God, the late Archbishop Fulton Sheen, who said, “There are not one hundred people in this world who hate Catholicism, but there are millions who hate what they mistakenly believe Catholicism to be.”

So, is worshipping a statue wrong? Yes. The Roman Catholic Church teaches that it is wrong, in line with the Sacred Scriptures as it states in Exodus 20:4-5, “You shall not carve idols for yourselves in the shape of anything in the sky above or on the earth below or in the waters beneath the earth; you shall not bow down before them or worship them”.

That being said…

There are several places in the Bible where God commissions statues and images for religious usage:

Exodus 25:10-22
1 Kings 6:23; 7:13-51
Numbers 21:6-9
Judges 17:1-6

Is God sending Two Different Messages?

Not necessarily…keep reading.

God ordered His children to construct these statues and images, but He did not intend for His children to worship them. God was using the images to help them to recall situations, to see places as holy and set apart, and to help them to open their minds and hearts and turn them back to God.

You see, an image is not an idol. There is a difference.

“An image is simply a spiritual ‘visual aid’ that is used by the faithful to increase their spirit of prayerfulness and devotion to God. An idol, on the other hand, is an image that is worshipped by the unfaithful in place of the one true God (i.e., the ‘golden calf’ described in Ex. 32:7-8).”

In the Old Testament, images of God were forbidden because folks had not yet seen God in human form. In the New Testament, God HAS taken on human form…an image that we can see.

“He (Jesus) is the image of the invisible God…” – Colossians 1:15

“For in Jesus dwells the whole fullness of the Deity, bodily…” – Colossians 2:9

“What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we looked upon and touched with our hands concerns the Word of life – for the life was made visible…” – 1 John 1:1-2

When we profess that Jesus Christ is Lord, we must remember that we are professing the Incarnation…that is, that God became flesh…flesh in human form, Who we could see, smell, hear, touch and (through the Eucharist) taste!

When we look upon a statue as we meditate in prayer to God, our senses are illuminated. We are not worshipping the wood, plaster, plastic or paint. The image, though, appeals to our sense of sight, aiding in our visualization and helping us to focus on the pure, consistent and holy life lived by that saint…like the Blessed Virgin Mary, for instance.

Here’s a few more things to keep in mind:

Stained glass windows with images can work in the same way…but most people don’t seem to have a problem with those, because “they’re just pretty”.

Images were very important in the early times of our Church’s history, especially when most of the faithful were illiterate, and could not read the word of God on their own. The images helped them recall instances and situations in the Word that they had heard about, but could not read on their own.

We put framed pictures of loved ones on mantles and walls of our homes, but that doesn’t mean that we worship them.

If I hold my Bible during worship, and hold it close to my heart…am I worshipping the God who inspired and wrote it, or am I worshipping the leather, glue and paper?

The weatherman uses a visual aid of maps when forecasting the weather, but couldn’t he just tell us the facts and read the temperatures?

Is a Children’s picture Bible that includes animations and drawings throughout it, the worshipping of images? Those are images, too, just not 3-D.

Catholics may pray in front of a statue, but never to a statue…that would be idolatry.

Finally, consider these last two thoughts regarding what the early Christians did:

“Previously God, who has neither a body nor a face, absolutely could not be represented by an image. But now that he has made himself visible in the flesh and has lived with men, I can make an image of what I have seen of God…and contemplate the glory of the Lord, his face unveiled.” – St. John Damascene (749 AD)

“The early Church used statues and images as aids to devotion and as expressions of faith. One need only to visit the catacombs in Rome to see statues and frescoes representing no only Christ but also scenes from Scripture. When the Church emerged from the catacombs, it continued to decorate its houses of worship with statues, mosaics, frescoes, and oil paintings, all designed to increase a spirit of prayerfulness.” -Albert Nevins, M.M.

(Based, in part, on Unabridged Christianity, by Fr. Mario Romero)

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musiclover0526

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Re: Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?
« Reply #6 on: July 28, 2008, 11:26:35 AM »
matud pa nila...kung love nimo ang isa ka tawo..naa sila pictures..tan aw tan awon..hagkan hagkan..mao ra sad na sa images sa mga god..tungod kay love nila ang god,ilang simbahon bisan mga rebulto.

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ms da binsi

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Re: Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?
« Reply #7 on: July 28, 2008, 11:28:34 AM »
Is God sending Two Different Messages?


Are there diff'rent versions? o yeah there are, but who do we believe now??? hahahha

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Re: Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?
« Reply #8 on: July 28, 2008, 11:29:31 AM »
"Thou shalt not make any graven image"
By Wayne Blank

"Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I The Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate Me; And showing mercy unto thousands of them that love Me, and keep My Commandments" (Exodus 20:4-6 KJV)

The Second Commandment

Violation of the Second Commandment takes two general forms; first, the worship of false gods by means of religious statues or pictures, and second, the worship of the True God by means of religious statues or pictures.

The first form of idolatry is rendered obviously wrong by The First Commandment which makes plain not to worship false gods (see "Thou shalt have no other gods before Me"). The First Commandment covers the false-god aspect of the Second Commandment.

The second form of idolatry should also be seen as obviously wrong to anyone with a Bible, and who reads it, and who reads it with an attitude of truly obeying God, but millions of people who merely claim (to their eventual regret, if they don't repent, see I Did It My Way...) to be good Christians defy God by having religious statues or pictures in their churches or homes. The true God is not a picture, the true God is not a statue, and as the Scriptures plainly state, by God's own Word, the true God is not to be worshiped or prayed to by the use of statues or pictures. It is a blasphemous insult to Almighty God to portray Him in such a lowly and grossly-inaccurate way!

Imagine, if when someone wanted to talk to you, they made themselves a hollow, lifeless plaster doll, that they said represented you, brought it into your presence and instead of talking to you directly, they talked to the lifeless plaster doll, as if it were you, all the while ignoring the real you who was right there with them. Would you think someone who did that was very foolish? Would you be offended by someone who "sees you" as a plaster dummy? And if, after your telling them that you don't like them doing that, and emphatically telling them not to do it, they kept doing it anyway, would you become angry with them? By His own words, it makes God very angry too. You aren't a dummy (unless, after you've read this, you keep any religious statues or images that you happen to have), and God isn't a dummy either. If you have any such religious statues or pictures as your lawful personal possession, destroy them immediately! (do not touch anything that is someone else's property, but show them this study if you can - everyone is responsible for themselves before God after they know the Truth).

The same holds true for using statues or images to worship or pray to the dead saints of the past (just as it's wrong to worship or pray to the living saints of the present - see What Is A Saint?). Only God is to be prayed to or worshiped (see also What Would Mary Really Say About Idolatry?). All of the saints of the past were merely people the same as anyone today, and all of the dead saints of the past cannot hear anything, or do anything, for anyone because they are dead at the moment. Dead does not mean "alive and dead," dead means dead (see What Happens When You Die?). If they were not dead, if the dead were already alive, there would be no need for a future resurrection of the dead (see Resurrections). Again, if you have any such religious statues or pictures as your lawful personal possession, destroy them immediately! (and again, do not touch anything that is someone else's property, but show them this study if you can - everyone is responsible for themselves before God after they know the Truth)

What does the Bible warn about the use of statues and pictures for worship?

God will shame and condemn those who use statues or images for worship:

    "Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? Ye are even My witnesses. Is there a God beside Me? Yea, there is no God; I know not any. They that make a graven image are all of them vanity; and their delectable things shall not profit; and they are their own witnesses; they see not, nor know; that they may be ashamed. Who hath formed a god, or molten a graven image that is profitable for nothing? Behold, all his fellows shall be ashamed: and the workmen, they are of men: let them all be gathered together, let them stand up; yet they shall fear, and they shall be ashamed together." (Isaiah 44:8-11 KJV)

God is not made of wood, plastic, or cement - God is not to be represented by wood, plastic, or cement:

    "Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Because He hath appointed a day, in the which He will judge the world [see When Will You Be Judged?] in righteousness by that man whom He hath ordained; whereof He hath given assurance unto all men, in that He hath raised Him from the dead" (Acts 17:29-31 KJV)

source: Bible Study

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Re: Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?
« Reply #9 on: July 28, 2008, 11:30:46 AM »
Ate Belle,

I go to church and kneel before the blessed crucifix of Jesus Christ, and take of the Bread and Wine. I am not praying to anyone besides my Lord and Savior. Who is Jesus Christ.

The statue of Mother Mary, we do not pray to her but to ask her intercession to Her Son in Heaven.

These misconceptions many have is something that needs to be 'eradicated'. For it is destructive and untrue.



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Re: Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?
« Reply #10 on: July 28, 2008, 11:34:02 AM »
Acts 7:47

47 but it was Solomon who built a house for him. 48. However, the Most High does not live in buildings made by human[ii] hands. As the prophet says,

49      “‘Heaven is my throne,

and the earth is my footstool.

What kind of house can you build for me,’ declares the Lord,

“or what place is there in which I can rest?

50      It was my hand that made all these things, wasn't it?
'”

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Re: Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?
« Reply #11 on: July 28, 2008, 11:35:39 AM »
  If there is one area that a Catholic might be unwittingly guilty of is this. In fact ask a practicing Catholic about their beloved statues of saints, if they pray TO the statue of the saint. Most likely, you’ll get an answer saying, they pray TO the saint. However, if you look at the actual prayers, they’re requests for intercession between God and us, and definitely NOT worshiping the statue. That would be pagan idolatry.

So why do we keep statues and pictures of saints, and for that matter the

Virgin Mary? If you happen to visit any park or memorial, you’ll most likely find a statue or a depiction of a hero or a political figure. Those are there because we honor and cherish their memory. In the same token, then we honor saints and righteous men and women. There are several passages in the Bible that actually require us do just that, such as 1 Pet 2:17 :

    "Give honor to all, love the community, fear God, honor the king."

and Rom 12:10

    "love one another with mutual affection; anticipate one another in showing honor.
    Do not grow slack in zeal, be fervent in spirit, serve the Lord.
    Rejoice in hope, endure in affliction, persevere in prayer.
    Contribute to the needs of the holy ones, exercise hospitality."

And in Heb 12:22-23:

    "No, you have approached Mount Zion and the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and countless angels in festal gathering,
    and the assembly of the firstborn enrolled in heaven, and God the judge of all, and the spirits of the just made perfect,"

"the assembly of the firstborn enrolled in heaven" is an expression that may refer to the angels, or to the heroes of the Old Testament, or to the entire assembly of the new covenant. Statues and pictures are visual reminders of our great saints and heroes of the faith (Heb 11) whose life and faith God intended for us to imitate, as in Heb 13:7. 7 Remember your leaders who spoke the word of God to you. Consider the outcome of their way of life and imitate their faith.

God never intended for the saints in heaven to be completely separated from the body of Christ on earth. They are involved in intercession, just as the saints on earth are, and they are described as "so great a cloud of witnesses" (Heb 12:1).

    "Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us rid ourselves of every burden and sin that clings to us and persevere in running the race that lies before us"

Christian life is to be inspired not only by the men and women of faith in the Old Testament but above all by Jesus, whose suffering at the cross gave His followers the courage to continue the struggle, if necessary even to the shedding of blood.

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ms da binsi

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Re: Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?
« Reply #12 on: July 28, 2008, 11:38:26 AM »
Flags can also be objects of veneration but heroes and flags are diff'rent...we dont worhip them.

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Re: Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?
« Reply #13 on: July 28, 2008, 11:43:46 AM »
God Said To Make Them

People who oppose religious statuary forget about the many passages where the Lord commands the making of statues. For example: "And you shall make two cherubim of gold [i.e., two gold statues of angels]; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. Make one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end; of one piece of the mercy seat shall you make the cherubim on its two ends. The cherubim shall spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, their faces one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubim be" (Ex. 25:18–20).

David gave Solomon the plan "for the altar of incense made of refined gold, and its weight; also his plan for the golden chariot of the cherubim that spread their wings and covered the ark of the covenant of the Lord. All this he made clear by the writing of the hand of the Lord concerning it all, all the work to be done according to the plan" (1 Chr. 28:18–19). David’s plan for the temple, which the biblical author tells us was "by the writing of the hand of the Lord concerning it all," included statues of angels.

Similarly Ezekiel 41:17–18 describes graven (carved) images in the idealized temple he was shown in a vision, for he writes, "On the walls round about in the inner room and [on] the nave were carved likenesses of cherubim."


The Religious Uses of Images

During a plague of serpents sent to punish the Israelites during the exodus, God told Moses to "make [a statue of] a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and every one who is bitten, when he sees it shall live. So Moses made a bronze serpent, and set it on a pole; and if a serpent bit any man, he would look at the bronze serpent and live" (Num. 21:8–9).

One had to look at the bronze statue of the serpent to be healed, which shows that statues could be used ritually, not merely as religious decorations.

Catholics use statues, paintings, and other artistic devices to recall the person or thing depicted. Just as it helps to remember one’s mother by looking at her photograph, so it helps to recall the example of the saints by looking at pictures of them. Catholics also use statues as teaching tools. In the early Church they were especially useful for the instruction of the illiterate. Many Protestants have pictures of Jesus and other Bible pictures in Sunday school for teaching children. Catholics also use statues to commemorate certain people and events, much as Protestant churches have three-dimensional nativity scenes at Christmas.

If one measured Protestants by the same rule, then by using these "graven" images, they would be practicing the "idolatry" of which they accuse Catholics. But there’s no idolatry going on in these situations. God forbids the worship of images as gods, but he doesn’t ban the making of images. If he had, religious movies, videos, photographs, paintings, and all similar things would be banned. But, as the case of the bronze serpent shows, God does not even forbid the ritual use of religious images.

It is when people begin to adore a statue as a god that the Lord becomes angry. Thus when people did start to worship the bronze serpent as a snake-god (whom they named "Nehushtan"), the righteous king Hezekiah had it destroyed (2 Kgs. 18:4).


Hiding the Second Commandment?



Another charge sometimes made by Protestants is that the Catholic Church "hides" the second commandment. This is because in Catholic catechisms, the first commandment is often listed as "You shall have no other gods before me" (Ex. 20:3), and the second is listed as "You shall not take the name of the Lord in vain." (Ex. 20:7). From this, it is argued that Catholics have deleted the prohibition of idolatry to justify their use of religious statues. But this is false. Catholics simply group the commandments differently from most Protestants.

In Exodus 20:2–17, which gives the Ten Commandments, there are actually fourteen imperative statements. To arrive at Ten Commandments, some statements have to be grouped together, and there is more than one way of doing this. Since, in the ancient world, polytheism and idolatry were always united—idolatry being the outward expression of polytheism—the historic Jewish numbering of the Ten Commandments has always grouped together the imperatives "You shall have no other gods before me" (Ex. 20:3) and "You shall not make for yourself a graven image" (Ex. 20:4). The historic Catholic numbering follows the Jewish numbering on this point, as does the historic Lutheran numbering. Martin Luther recognized that the imperatives against polytheism and idolatry are two parts of a single command.

Jews and Christians abbreviate the commandments so that they can be remembered using a summary, ten-point formula. For example, Jews, Catholics, and Protestants typically summarize the Sabbath commandment as, "Remember the Sabbath to keep it holy," though the commandment’s actual text takes four verses (Ex. 20:8–11).

When the prohibition of polytheism/idolatry is summarized, Jews, Catholics, and Lutherans abbreviate it as "You shall have no other gods before me." This is no attempt to "hide" the idolatry prohibition (Jews and Lutherans don’t even use statues of saints and angels). It is to make learning the Ten Commandments easier.

The Catholic Church is not dogmatic about how the Ten Commandments are to be numbered, however. The Catechism of the Catholic Church says, "The division and numbering of the Commandments have varied in the course of history. The present catechism follows the division of the Commandments established by Augustine, which has become traditional in the Catholic Church. It is also that of the Lutheran confession. The Greek Fathers worked out a slightly different division, which is found in the Orthodox Churches and Reformed communities" (CCC 2066).




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Re: Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?
« Reply #14 on: July 28, 2008, 11:46:10 AM »
John 4:23-24 (ESV) But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship him. God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.“

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Re: Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?
« Reply #15 on: July 28, 2008, 11:47:23 AM »
The Form of God?

Some anti-Catholics appeal to Deuteronomy 4:15–18 in their attack on religious statues: "Since you saw no form on the day that the Lord spoke to you at Horeb out of the midst of the fire, beware lest you act corruptly by making a graven image for yourselves, in the form of any figure, the likeness of male or female, the likeness of any beast that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged bird that flies in the air, the likeness of anything that creeps on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the water under the earth."

We’ve already shown that God doesn’t prohibit the making of statues or images of various creatures for religious purposes (cf. 1 Kgs. 6:29–32, 8:6–66; 2 Chr. 3:7–14). But what about statues or images that represent God? Many Protestants would say that’s wrong because Deuteronomy 4 says the Israelites did not see God under any form when he made the covenant with them, therefore we should not make symbolic representations of God either. But does Deuteronomy 4 forbid such representations?


What About Bowing?



Sometimes anti-Catholics cite Deuteronomy 5:9, where God said concerning idols, "You shall not bow down to them." Since many Catholics sometimes bow or kneel in front of statues of Jesus and the saints, anti-Catholics confuse the legitimate veneration of a sacred image with the sin of idolatry.

Though bowing can be used as a posture in worship, not all bowing is worship. In Japan, people show respect by bowing in greeting (the equivalent of the Western handshake). Similarly, a person can kneel before a king without worshiping him as a god. In the same way, a Catholic who may kneel in front of a statue while praying isn’t worshiping the statue or even praying to it, any more than the Protestant who kneels with a Bible in his hands when praying is worshiping the Bible or praying to it.



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Re: Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?
« Reply #16 on: July 28, 2008, 11:51:16 AM »
"Catholics worship statues!" People still make this ridiculous claim. Because Catholics have statues in their churches, goes the accusation, they are violating God’s commandment: "You shall not make for yourself a graven image or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: you shall not bow down to them or serve them" (Ex. 20:4–5); "Alas, this people have sinned a great sin; they have made for themselves gods of gold" (Ex. 32:31).

It is right to warn people against the sin of idolatry when they are committing it. But calling Catholics idolaters because they have images of Christ and the saints is based on misunderstanding or ignorance of what the Bible says about the purpose and uses (both good and bad) of statues.

Anti-Catholic writer Loraine Boettner, in his book Roman Catholicism, makes the blanket statement, "God has forbidden the use of images in worship" (281). Yet if people were to "search the scriptures" (cf. John 5:39), they would find the opposite is true. God forbade the worship of statues, but he did not forbid the religious use of statues. Instead, he actually commanded their use in religious contexts!


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Re: Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?
« Reply #17 on: July 28, 2008, 11:56:40 AM »
The argument to prejudice Catholic practices in regards to the passage, (Ex. 20:4–5); "Alas, this people have sinned a great sin; they have made for themselves gods of gold" (Ex. 32:31) is of no basis.

Such particular excerpt was made to admonish the worship of pagan gods. Most exceptionally Egypt.

I do not worship anyone other than my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. Who is Alive in Church. In the Holy Gospel.

In the Bread of Life, and in Wine.

We glorify his Mighty Name in Church, In Mass.

For who do we pray if not for Our Father In Heaven. Our prayers rises to him like sweet incense.

We pray O Lord for your protection of Your Holy Church. Whom was built for you. For the Salvation of Souls.



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Re: Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?
« Reply #18 on: July 28, 2008, 12:09:21 PM »
I read something concerning Orthodox and Catholic practices and would be best to reiterate it in here to elucidate the matter for those who have distorted and wrong interpretations of the matter.


WHY were the Israelites commanded not to make graven images?...Graven images were the standard method of pagan worship. They were representations of false gods...an "image" NOT made for worship is acceptable. In fact, we should not really call things like the cherubims "images" at all -- an "image" in ancient thought is not merely something that has an appearance, like a statue or a picture, but something that serves as a focal point for the presence and power of a deity. Thus for example ancient rulers in Egypt, Babylon, and elsewhere were referred to as the "image" of a certain deity, not because they looked like the deity, but because the deity's power and authority was thought to operate through them.

With this understanding in mind, does the Orthodox use of icons violate the command against graven images? Based on Sparks' and Whiteford's description, and even though they seem unaware of this understanding of "image," the answer seems to be no. Although Sparks correctly notes the use of cherubim on the Ark (which Barker saw as contrary to the restriction), as well as the fact that the other images were used as idols; and though he also notes the existence of paintings and statues depicting the likes of Peter and Paul, and notes that people were apparently "deeply moved" by them, he does not apparently know the background meaning of the Hebrew and Greek words for "image". Still, if he did, it would not work against Orthodox use of icons as Sparks and Whiteford describe them. His defense offers these points, however:

   1. The icons make no effort to depict God. If they did, then they would be objectionable.
   2. Icons are actually word-pictures. In fact, Sparks uses the very proverb above ("a picture is worth a thousand words") to describe the purpose of icons.

On this accounting, reason 1 is a good point, but does not address the key argument. Reason 2 has a much stronger basis -- the early church (indeed the ancient world as a whole) was 90-95% illiterate. If icons are understood as memory aids, then they are far, far from being "images" of the sort forbidden by the Bible, no more so than would be a Children's Picture Bible. Whiteford quotes Pope Gregory (590-604) as saying, "For what writing presents to readers, this a picture presents to the unlearned who behold, since in it even the ignorant see what they ought to follow; in it the illiterate read." He then notes the problems of functional illiteracy today, and notes as well that many people (especially children) are pre-literate.

But that leads to the question, what of the parishoner I saw praying before the icon? What of those who kiss or bow before icons in reverence (and also may make the sign of the cross, recalling Christ's sacrifice)? Sparks replies that icons are "windows to heaven, revealing the glory of God" and actually "help to protect us from idolatry" by pointing us in the right direction. They also "bring a revelation, a manifestation of the unseen heavenly host of angels, saints and martyrs--yes, even the eternal saving events--into our presence." [8-9] By comparison he points to Daniel and Joshua bowing in veneration before an angel of God, and the honor persons give one another in daily life (such as honoring one's father and mother).

Sparks' example of Joshua and Daniel is open to question; Joshua at least may have been seeing an example of the pre-incarnate Christ. Yet Sparks' description, if we take it as doing justice to the Orthodox view, does make it clear that icons and their use are not a violation of the graven images command, even if they appear to be on the surface. Though Sparks' language is a little vague, it does not indicate that the icons are points of presence for a deity in the same sense that the ancient Baal or Dagon figurine was. As he describes them, icons are visual aids, and those who kiss and bow before them are giving respect, not worship. Whiteford compares it to an American saluting a flag as a "veneration" not of course of the cloth and dye, but of the ideal represented by the flag; or he compares it to Jews kissing their copy of the Torah.

Whiteford does, however, provide a rather questionable example as well. He notes that when Polycarp was martyred, several disciples tried very hard to retrieve his body. This actually reflects an ancient desire that ANY body should be buried honorably -- not any particular veneration for Polycarp. The ancients were deeply concerned for the preservation of ANY body for reasons of honor, and this was an honorable burial for a person deserving of honor, which to the ancients was as important as we would regard paying the bills (per the work of Malina and Rohrbaugh). The further observations of the date of martyrdom are a similar reflection.

Sparks notes the reply, "Why not just worship God?" His response: blank walls are of no use, for "such barrenness [does not] serve to speak of the presence of a living God." [9] One might remark in reply that the Holy Spirit indwelling the believer bespeaks of that well enough. But if we follow Sparks' explanation, icons might be best described as visual aids for visual thinkers; the kissing and praying as a way (if rather emotional and by Western standards, excessive) of saying "thank you" and giving respect to those depicted, as one may kiss one's mother or father and give them a hug. And if that is all there is to it, the "no graven images" command is not applicable. (I will admit that as a "verbal" thinker I personally find the idea of icons pointless.)

Of course one would not say that some Orthodox adherent may not fall into the mistake of false worship through icons -- the line between simple respect and outright worship is not very well-defined, and Orthodoxy uses more Eastern modes of expression which Westerners find too "mushy" -- just as one may point out that any Southern Baptist may fall into the error of salvation by works or a God with a human body. At the same time one cannot agree with Sparks that such things are "indispensable for those who sincerely pursue and desire the fullness of Christian worship" [20] -- for visually-oriented persons, or for the illiterate, such things may be eminently useful and helpful for worship, but they are hardly "indispensable." In short: The Orthodox use of icons is no violation of the graven image command in and of itself; which is not to say that it is not, like anything else, open for abuse and subject to misuse or excess. Indeed, in the Western world it may be far more open for abuse than in the East.

A helpful reader has passed on some material that may be of interest, and express at the very least a cautionary note. We should note as well that some of these cites may reflect an understanding of "image" in a way not quite the same as that of the definition we showed in our work on Mormonism, and that these writers were writing centuries before the Church really worked out and resolved the issue in the iconoclast controversy.

    "Works of art cannot then be sacred and divine." - Clement of Alexandria (The Stromata, 7:5)

    "In a word, if we refuse our homage to statues and frigid images, the very counterpart of their dead originals, with which hawks, and mice, and spiders are so well acquainted, does it not merit praise instead of penalty, that we have rejected what we have come to see is error?" - Tertullian (The Apology, 12)

    "We know that the names of the dead are nothing, as are their images; but we know well enough, too, who, when images are set up, under these names carry on their wicked work, and exult in the homage rendered to them, and pretend to be divine--none other than spirits accursed, than devils." - Tertullian (De Spectaculis, 10)

    "For how could he [Peter on the Mount of Transfiguration] have known Moses and Elias, except by being in the Spirit? People could not have had their images, or statues, or likenesses; for that the law forbade." - Tertullian (Against Marcion, 4:22)

    "But, they say, we do not fear the images themselves, but those beings after whose likeness they were formed, and to whose names they are dedicated. You fear them doubtless on this account, because you think that they are in heaven; for if they are gods, the case cannot be otherwise. Why, then, do you not raise your eyes to heaven, and, invoking their names, offer sacrifices in the open air? Why do you look to walls, and wood, and stone, rather than to the place where you believe them to be?...Wherefore it is undoubted that there is no religion wherever there is an image. For if religion consists of divine things, and there is nothing divine except in heavenly things; it follows that images are without religion, because there can be nothing heavenly in that which is made from the earth." - Lactantius (The Divine Institutes, 2:2, 2:19)

    "Moreover, I have heard that certain persons have this grievance against me: When I accompanied you to the holy place called Bethel, there to join you in celebrating the Collect, after the use of the Church, I came to a villa called Anablatha and, as I was passing, saw a lamp burning there. Asking what place it was, and learning it to be a church, I went in to pray, and found there a curtain hanging on the doors of the said church, dyed and embroidered. It bore an image either of Christ or of one of the saints; I do not rightly remember whose the image was. Seeing this, and being loth that an image of a man should be hung up in Christ's church contrary to the teaching of the Scriptures, I tore it asunder and advised the custodians of the place to use it as a winding sheet for some poor person. They, however, murmured, and said that if I made up my mind to tear it, it was only fair that I should give them another curtain in its place. As soon as I heard this, I promised that I would give one, and said that I would send it at once. Since then there has been some little delay, due to the fact that I have been seeking a curtain of the best quality to give to them instead of the former one, and thought it right to send to Cyprus for one. I have now sent the best that I could find, and I beg that you will order the presbyter of the place to take the curtain which I have sent from the hands of the Reader, and that you will afterwards give directions that curtains of the other sort--opposed as they are to our religion--shall not be hung up in any church of Christ. A man of your uprightness should be careful to remove an occasion of offence unworthy alike of the Church of Christ and of those Christians who are committed to your charge." (Jerome's Letter 51:9)

We close with these observations: One should not exaggerate the dangers of falling into idolatry, no matter how strange icon-veneration may seem to members of theological traditions that have traditionally been suspicious of liturgical art. Protestantism is the "unusual" party in this respect, not Orthodoxy (and specifically Evangelicalism: cf. e.g. the stained-glass windows, etc of Episcopalian Protestantism). It is a debate that should be approached with caution and not with our perceptions in the fore.

http://www.tektonics.org/gk/icons.html


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Re: Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?
« Reply #19 on: July 29, 2008, 09:56:32 AM »
Early in its history, Israel was forbidden to make any depictions of God because he had not revealed himself in a visible form. Given the pagan culture surrounding them, the Israelites might have been tempted to worship God in the form of an animal or some natural object (e.g., a bull or the sun).

But later God did reveal himself under visible forms, such as in Daniel 7:9: "As I looked, thrones were placed and one that was Ancient of Days took his seat; his raiment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like pure wool; his throne was fiery flames, its wheels were burning fire." Protestants make depictions of the Father under this form when they do illustrations of Old Testament prophecies.

The Holy Spirit revealed himself under at least two visible forms—that of a dove, at the baptism of Jesus (Matt. 3:16; Mark 1:10; Luke 3:22; John 1:32), and as tongues of fire, on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2:1–4). Protestants use these images when drawing or painting these biblical episodes and when they wear Holy Spirit lapel pins or place dove emblems on their cars.

But, more important, in the Incarnation of Christ his Son, God showed mankind an icon of himself. Paul said, "He is the image (Greek: ikon) of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation." Christ is the tangible, divine "icon" of the unseen, infinite God.

We read that when the magi were "going into the house they saw the child with Mary his mother, and they fell down and worshipped him. Then, opening their treasures, they offered him gifts, gold, frankincense, and myrrh" (Matt. 2:11). Though God did not reveal a form for himself on Mount Horeb, he did reveal one in the house in Bethlehem.

The bottom line is, when God made the New Covenant with us, he did reveal himself under a visible form in Jesus Christ. For that reason, we can make representations of God in Christ. Even Protestants use all sorts of religious images: Pictures of Jesus and other biblical persons appear on a myriad of Bibles, picture books, T-shirts, jewelry, bumper stickers, greeting cards, compact discs, and manger scenes. Christ is even symbolically represented through the Icthus or "fish emblem."

Common sense tells us that, since God has revealed himself in various images, most especially in the incarnate Jesus Christ, it’s not wrong for us to use images of these forms to deepen our knowledge and love of God. That’s why God revealed himself in these visible forms, and that’s why statues and pictures are made of them.

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Re: Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?
« Reply #20 on: July 29, 2008, 01:21:10 PM »

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Re: Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?
« Reply #21 on: July 29, 2008, 03:02:42 PM »
Should God Be Worshipped Through Images? John 4:23&24(please read)
It is a matter of personal choice, if you want to worship God through images then go ahead. yet if you read the two verses you will know how to worship GOD. the two verses are self explanatory of whom the FATHER seek as true worshippers. GOD's plan for mankind will continue regardless of what fashion you worship HIM.
:)

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Re: Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?
« Reply #22 on: July 29, 2008, 09:35:26 PM »
I agree with you completely Ate Lee.

When I attended collegiate bible study and inter-collegiate christian groups, we discussed this very issue.

I would like to say that by the end of our year-long meetings, many of us Catholics befriended protestants: lutherans, presbyterians, baptists, born-agains.

The general consensus we agreed on was that Christ Jesus is the Savior. The particular way of worship may differ from congregation to congregation, denomination to denomination, but the solid understanding of scripture, reading it, internalizing it is seen in all forms. Some may be orthodox in its ways as in retaining not only scriptural readings, but also a strong sense of religious practice in sacred methodology; then there are those who lean more on scriptural readings.

All of which, are beautiful and illustrate the worshiper's obeisance and Love of Our Father in Heaven.

I have been to baptist churches, been to orthodox churches (Greek and Russian), I have attended Presbyterian, United Methodist. I am a Roman Catholic, but I cannot help but smile in elation to see that in the very bottom line; we all worship the very same God. And read the very same scripture; though some have different translations from the original; the overall messages are reiterated.

Give Glory to God. And Only to God.



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Re: Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?
« Reply #23 on: July 29, 2008, 09:53:02 PM »
People surround themselves with symbols and trinkets to show off , if there were no symbols, and people were judged based on the lives they lead, nobody would know who the christians were! Symbols are there to make christians feel important in front of everyone else.
 


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Re: Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?
« Reply #24 on: July 31, 2008, 02:23:38 PM »
This is my story about religion we are very familiar with. First, more than 2 thousand years ago there was no Christianity but Judaism or the religion of the Jews. Then in 49 AD Paul or Saul, a pharisee, after his conversion to Christianity wrote the first 6 books of the new testament. He wrote about Jesus. Then after his death in 68 AD 15 years later gospels or good news were written about Jesus. Mind you... There are not only 4 gospels but more than 30 gospels were written about Jesus.

The books in the new testament were written in Greek. The books in the old testament were written in Hebrew. Therefore the bible is divided into 2 religious philosophical principles, Jewish and Greek.

The Hebrews believe in God as a spirit so they worship God in spirit which is why there is no statue in their synagogue. The Greeks believe that God became man. The Greeks admire the religion of the Jews but they don't want to follow it because of its so many traditional rituals. When Jesus came through the new testament the Greeks rebuked the religion of the Jews and its traditions as obsolete because Jesus said that, 'he is the new covenant promised by God'. Jesus in his so many of his teachings rebuked the traditions of the Jews. Since Greek tradition worship statue in their temples like the statue of Zeus they also brought that tradition when they were converted to Christianity. In olden times most of the people does not know how to read and write so to convert them is to show pictues, icons and sculptures. The Jews since they do not believe in Jesus vilified Christianity that the bickering cannot be settled by love and friendly persuasion but by hate.

This religious bickering lasted for almost 2 thousand years until the Jews were slaughtered by Christians in Hitler's Germany. Did you remember the late Pope Paul VI asking for forgiveness from the Jews for what Christians had done to the Jews for the last 1,900 years?

Salamat!

Way Nada

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Re: Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?
« Reply #25 on: July 31, 2008, 08:45:19 PM »
Excellent point of view, Mr. Nada. As always, thank you for that view.

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Re: Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?
« Reply #26 on: August 01, 2008, 01:29:14 AM »
This is my story about religion we are very familiar with. First, more than 2 thousand years ago there was no Christianity but Judaism or the religion of the Jews. Then in 49 AD Paul or Saul, a pharisee, after his conversion to Christianity wrote the first 6 books of the new testament. He wrote about Jesus. Then after his death in 68 AD 15 years later gospels or good news were written about Jesus. Mind you... There are not only 4 gospels but more than 30 gospels were written about Jesus.

The books in the new testament were written in Greek. The books in the old testament were written in Hebrew. Therefore the bible is divided into 2 religious philosophical principles, Jewish and Greek.

The Hebrews believe in God as a spirit so they worship God in spirit which is why there is no statue in their synagogue. The Greeks believe that God became man. The Greeks admire the religion of the Jews but they don't want to follow it because of its so many traditional rituals. When Jesus came through the new testament the Greeks rebuked the religion of the Jews and its traditions as obsolete because Jesus said that, 'he is the new covenant promised by God'. Jesus in his so many of his teachings rebuked the traditions of the Jews. Since Greek tradition worship statue in their temples like the statue of Zeus they also brought that tradition when they were converted to Christianity. In olden times most of the people does not know how to read and write so to convert them is to show pictues, icons and sculptures. The Jews since they do not believe in Jesus vilified Christianity that the bickering cannot be settled by love and friendly persuasion but by hate.

This religious bickering lasted for almost 2 thousand years until the Jews were slaughtered by Christians in Hitler's Germany. Did you remember the late Pope Paul VI asking for forgiveness from the Jews for what Christians had done to the Jews for the last 1,900 years?

Salamat!

Way Nada


i like your point Nads! sajun ra kaajo sabton! sumpayi pa daw kay murag hajag na gamay!

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Re: Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?
« Reply #27 on: August 01, 2008, 01:41:18 AM »
we need to have them in order for us to have a reminder..
its just a representative..
as long as you dont worship the statue itself..then all is fine

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Re: Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?
« Reply #28 on: August 01, 2008, 10:40:09 AM »

i like your point Nads! sajun ra kaajo sabton! sumpayi pa daw kay murag hajag na gamay!

Q: Who converted Paul to Christianity?

A: Jesus, when he was walking on his way to Damascus he was blinded by a light and heard a voice from heaven saying; Saul! Saul! Why are you persecuting me? It happened in 36 AD three years after the death of Christ.

Q: Which came first in the New Testament... the story of Jesus in the four Gospels or Paul's conversion on the way to Damascus?

It's your judgement!

Some people read the bible as a subject of historical studies but most people read the bible as a foundation of faith in God. My understanding is in the Jewish religion every person is free to say something pertaining to religion as long as they don't abandon the Commandments of Moses or the Torah. There was Simon Bar Kochbah who the Jews believed as the Christ when in 68 AD led the Jews to a revolt against the Romans. Another was John the Baptist or in the Talmud he was called Bannu the baptizer who established a religion before Christianity appeared.

In Christianity it is different because Jesus taught to abandon the Jewish traditions and the law of Moses especially the Sabbath. In Jesus the commandments is divided into two; Love of God and love of your neighbors.

In my opinion the bible is part history, part theology and most cases the stories are allegorical like Sodom and Gomorrah, the walls of Jericho or the flood during Noah's time in the bible. In the New Testament there is a story about the temple. When Jesus went to the temple he saw it as a place of commerce among the Jews. So he drove away all the people doing business in the temple telling them not to make the house of his Father a den of thieves. He challenge the Jews to destroy this temple and in three days he will rebuild it. This is allegorical because this story is written in the bible after the destruction of the temple. The gospels were written in 75 to 130 AD while the destruction of the temple was in 70 AD. Allegorical story is to disregard the real event in place of theological reason. The theological idea here is the resurrection of Christ in 3 days.

Salamat!

Way Nada





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Re: Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?
« Reply #29 on: August 01, 2008, 12:26:38 PM »
Ang ako jud gikalibugan noh? kay si Jesus jewish man na sha...pero gi abandon man nija ang Jewish tradition nga ang mga Jewish sa una ug karon nga PRO GOD man na sila...they worhip the God The Father man...

libog ko....

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Re: Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?
« Reply #30 on: August 04, 2008, 12:38:18 AM »
The argument to prejudice Catholic practices in regards to the passage, (Ex. 20:4–5); "Alas, this people have sinned a great sin; they have made for themselves gods of gold" (Ex. 32:31) is of no basis.

Such particular excerpt was made to admonish the worship of pagan gods. Most exceptionally Egypt.

I do not worship anyone other than my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. Who is Alive in Church. In the Holy Gospel.

In the Bread of Life, and in Wine.

We glorify his Mighty Name in Church, In Mass.

For who do we pray if not for Our Father In Heaven. Our prayers rises to him like sweet incense.

We pray O Lord for your protection of Your Holy Church. Whom was built for you. For the Salvation of Souls.



Siguro, kon sa unang panahon pa mi uso ang mga bible studies, fellowships, prayer meetings etc....  ang mga katoliko, may klarong pagsabot sa ilang tinohuan.

Sukad nga nag attend ko ug mga bible studies ug mga fellowships, diha p ko nakatugkad kon unsa ang pakikipagrelasyon kay Kristo. Nakakat-on ko kun unsaon pag-ampo nga deretso n sa Ginoo pinaagi kay Kristo. Nabag-o ang akong pagsabut sa akong namat-an nga tinohuan. I praise God for the blessings and wonderful things, bisan sa mga problema & hardships I praise Him that he always make me strong, I praise You Lord in the name of Jesus, hallelujah amen and amen!!!

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Re: Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?
« Reply #31 on: August 04, 2008, 01:20:47 AM »

Way Nada

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Re: Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?
« Reply #32 on: August 04, 2008, 11:01:44 AM »
Ang ako jud gikalibugan noh? kay si Jesus jewish man na sha...pero gi abandon man nija ang Jewish tradition nga ang mga Jewish sa una ug karon nga PRO GOD man na sila...they worhip the God The Father man...

libog ko....

Ms Da Binsi,

Jesus Christ is Jewish... You are correct! But why is it that in the bible Jesus preached to abandon the Jewish tradition?

Well, I put up already an answer to this question in my previous message that; the whole bible is divided between the two religious philosophical principles. The OT which is Hebrew and the NT which is Greek.

The NT which is principally in Greek wanted to reconcile with the OT which is why Christians always philosophize that the NT is the fulfillment of the prophets in the OT. But this Christian logic is always blocked by the owner of the OT who are the Jews. The Jews are not believers of Jesus as the Christ until today. Christianity during the days of the early Church Fathers is called heretics by the Jews. This caused the Christians to hate the Jews and accused the Jews of killing the Christ which the Christians wrote in the NT. Which is why the NT is a filibuster against the Jews as wicked people.

Ms Da Binsi, I hope you can get an idea to what I said. If Christ is a Jew and he wanted to abandon his Jewish tradition therefore the people who wrote the gospels might not be Jewish but Greek. Christ is only a subject to convert the Jews and gentiles to Christianity. In the gospels 3 are synoptic which means that they have almost the same idea... Matthew, Luke and Mark but John is different. The book of John according to bible experts was intellectually written in Greek. The gospels if they were really written by the Apostles it should be in Hebrew and it should not be a message to abandon their tradition. Some believed that the gospels are only pseudepigraphical books, meaning that the authors were not Jews but Greeks. I'll give you an example; The Apostles the way they dressed as pictured by Christians are in Greek style and not like Jewish.

Salamat!

WN   

 

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Re: Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?
« Reply #33 on: September 15, 2008, 08:26:28 AM »
Ms Da Binsi,

Jesus Christ is Jewish... You are correct! But why is it that in the bible Jesus preached to abandon the Jewish tradition?

Well, I put up already an answer to this question in my previous message that; the whole bible is divided between the two religious philosophical principles. The OT which is Hebrew and the NT which is Greek.

The NT which is principally in Greek wanted to reconcile with the OT which is why Christians always philosophize that the NT is the fulfillment of the prophets in the OT. But this Christian logic is always blocked by the owner of the OT who are the Jews. The Jews are not believers of Jesus as the Christ until today. Christianity during the days of the early Church Fathers is called heretics by the Jews. This caused the Christians to hate the Jews and accused the Jews of killing the Christ which the Christians wrote in the NT. Which is why the NT is a filibuster against the Jews as wicked people.

Ms Da Binsi, I hope you can get an idea to what I said. If Christ is a Jew and he wanted to abandon his Jewish tradition therefore the people who wrote the gospels might not be Jewish but Greek. Christ is only a subject to convert the Jews and gentiles to Christianity. In the gospels 3 are synoptic which means that they have almost the same idea... Matthew, Luke and Mark but John is different. The book of John according to bible experts was intellectually written in Greek. The gospels if they were really written by the Apostles it should be in Hebrew and it should not be a message to abandon their tradition. Some believed that the gospels are only pseudepigraphical books, meaning that the authors were not Jews but Greeks. I'll give you an example; The Apostles the way they dressed as pictured by Christians are in Greek style and not like Jewish.

Salamat!

WN   

 

Way Nada,

For me, I do not care what anyone else says if they criticize me how I worship my Lord, my Creator, and my Redeemer. We do things and we pray the way we do because we are invigorated in Faith and called to pray by The Most High.

I care not what a man calls me, or what his views are in how I worship. Scripture strengthens me because it says, ""Do not judge, and you will not be judged; and do not condemn, and you will not be condemned; pardon, and you will be pardoned." (Luke 6:37)

Sacred Tradition in lieu with Sacred Scripture helps me to see forward and to find my Lord and Savior. If a person has a problem with it, then I say to them, "God Bless You!"


Through Christ Jesus, Our Lord.

Amen.

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Re: Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?
« Reply #34 on: September 17, 2008, 01:17:16 PM »
Way Nada,

For me, I do not care what anyone else says if they criticize me how I worship my Lord, my Creator, and my Redeemer. We do things and we pray the way we do because we are invigorated in Faith and called to pray by The Most High.

I care not what a man calls me, or what his views are in how I worship. Scripture strengthens me because it says, ""Do not judge, and you will not be judged; and do not condemn, and you will not be condemned; pardon, and you will be pardoned." (Luke 6:37)

Sacred Tradition in lieu with Sacred Scripture helps me to see forward and to find my Lord and Savior. If a person has a problem with it, then I say to them, "God Bless You!"


Through Christ Jesus, Our Lord.

Amen.

Lorenzo,

I am not questioning or criticizing your way of worship. You are correct! You should worship your God according to your faith. I think you are putting my opinion emotionally instead of having an open mind.

WN










 

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Re: Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?
« Reply #35 on: September 17, 2008, 01:33:51 PM »
maw, open up your mind.

for us catholics, we do not worship that statue, it is only a representation. we worship to God. if you think otherwise you better think twice on judging the way you see catholics pray.

well for me it's better to pray infront of a statue than praying infront of a blank wall!

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Re: Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?
« Reply #36 on: September 17, 2008, 07:11:45 PM »
Buwad is right.

For others who are not catholic, they think we pray to a statue. They think so because they are not Catholic, and do not understand our motive of prayer.

We pray in Faith. In the Spirit.

For Our Father in Heaven is in the Heavens. All the world is His. The statues that are inside chuches are nothing but beautifications that are similarly found in the Jewish Temples. It is to glorify His wonders, His church that He created when He came down from Heaven into Earth.

When Christ came down to Earth, man saw Him. Man saw how our Lord looked like. St. Peter the Apostle, the first Pope of the Church, saw him, kissed him, hugged him, and was there with Him.

There is a reason for the things. The Catholic Church has survived revolutions, wars, protestant splinterring, survived the plagues that the Devil has given to attack the faith of those within the Church.

And Like as Jesus told Peter, ""I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it."
-Matthew 16:18


There are reasons for things that we cannot understand. And as a lowly man who is made from dust, I acquiesce to that. Faith, it is faith that calls me to pray. And it is Faith in Christ Jesus that brings 1.5 billion Catholics to pray as well.

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Re: Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?
« Reply #37 on: September 17, 2008, 08:33:31 PM »
well for me it's better to pray infront of a statue than praying infront of a blank wall!


Asa naman tong giingon sa Biblia nga "Bulahan kadtong ming tuo bisan wa nakakita nako"?

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Re: Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?
« Reply #38 on: September 18, 2008, 08:32:58 AM »
whats your point mam dabinz? lorenz, mag ka sinabut ta ani pre youre right inspite of the ups and downs abuses of some church authorities and from defectors. nia gihapon ang simbahan for more than thousand years proclaiming the glory of God!

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Re: Should God Be Worshipped Through Images?
« Reply #39 on: September 18, 2008, 10:05:09 AM »
whats your point mam dabinz? lorenz, mag ka sinabut ta ani pre youre right inspite of the ups and downs abuses of some church authorities and from defectors. nia gihapon ang simbahan for more than thousand years proclaiming the glory of God!

Buwad,

Despite the positions of our priests, and men and women of holy Orders, we are all sublimely and imperfectly HUMAN.

And because of that, fall prey to all the sins, imperfections, and vices that are attributed to Human Kind.

The sins that you, myself and our brothers and sisters experience and are tempted with, so too are our priests, our nuns, ministers, bishops, cardinals and even the Pope himself.

But despite our imperfections and our gregarious sins, we submit to the FACT that our Saviour and Redeemer, Christ Jesus, God Blessed Forever, has come to renounce our sins and redeem us through our submission to His Will. Salvation of our eternal soul is for Him and his Heavenly Father to prescribe. Not Man.

But even with our sins, we praise and look to direction of our Lord and Savior. And that is what it means to be a follower of Christ. To be a Catholic.


Unending glorious praise are Yours, Heavenly Father.
Now and Forever.



Through Christ Jesus, God Blessed Forever.

Peace be with everyone. :)

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