Author Topic: Let's Study The Holy Bible (Read 33750 times)

benelynne · « **Reply #80 on:** July 13, 2008, 07:05:24 am »

I attend a Bible Study almost every Sunday evening and we go one chapter at a time, starting from Genesis. We are now in 1st Kings 22. The New Testament is easier to read and the thread of thought easier to follow, so I advise beginners to start here. The Old Testament can be very challenging because it has to be understood on different levels--from the literal and historical to the highly figurative and spiritual plane.

It is good to study the O.T. with the guidance of someone well-versed in it because one can be confused by passages seemingly contrary to Christian thinking--like why God blessed Abraham who lied about many things and slept with his maid, Jacob who cheated his brother Esau and slept with both sisters, why David who slept with his general's wife and schemed to kill him is called a "man after God's own heart", why God ordered total annihilation of pagans when the Israel moved into the Promised Land, etc. etc.

In our group, we have a Taiwanese pastor, Filipino PhD candidates in the natural sciences, undergraduate students and plain housewives. The most interesting questions--which force us to think really deeply--come from one Japanese housewife whose question always gives rise to more questions, most of them really hilarious. (I recall the interjections of Belle here.) We attempt to answer in the best way we can, without taking offense, and we sometimes go home without really clear answers to those questions. We don't feel we have one muscle less in the strength of our faith, and we always look forward to the next session.

Somehow, the process of addressing these questions, more than giving any definitive answer itself, is what builds our faith...

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #81 on:** July 13, 2008, 08:57:08 am »

hi guys, this is my first time in this thread and read lots of interesting insights. I am very aware about the BIBLE. Ever since I stepped in to a Catholic school up to I graduated college, I thought I know everything about it. It was when I came to the US with so much materials to read and see that I came to realize that there are plenty of things to know more about it. And it even became more interesting when I get the chance to go into the Vatican City in Rome Italy. That was the time when my Faith finally gets into the point where I say, I know where I stand now.

but here's my question, did you know who wrote the bible? this question is for you Bran specially since you are the one who started the thread. From then on I'll see what I can add.

Beth, I will try to answer this to the best of my ability, but I also invite persons who know and have studied the Bible more than I; per se Tito Benne and Brod Mike.

For me, Beth,

The Bible itself are works of men who have been inspired by the Power of the Holy Spirit. Or as what Tito Benne put it as, "God-Breathed".

"Who wrote the Bible” is a question that can be definitively answered by examining the biblical texts in light of the external evidences that supports its claims. 2 Timothy 3:16 states that “All scripture is inspired by God….” In 2 Peter 1:20-21, Peter reminds the reader to “know this first of all, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, … but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.” The Bible itself tells us that it is God who is the author of His book.

God does not leave us with just claims of His divine handiwork in the Bible, but also supports it with compelling evidence. The design of the Bible itself is a miracle. Written over more than 1,500 years by vastly different writers, yet every book in the Bible is consistent in its message. These 66 books talk about history, prophecy, poetry, and theology. Despite their complexity, differences in writing styles and vast time periods, the books of the Bible agree miraculously well in theme, facts and cross-referencing. No human beings could have planned such an intricate combination of books over a 1,500-year time span. Bible manuscripts (remember, there were no printing presses until 1455) have survived despite weather, persecution and time. Most ancient writings written on weak materials like papyrus have vanished all together. Yet many copies of the Old Testament scriptures survived. For instance, the Dead Sea Scrolls contain all books of the Old Testament, except Esther, and have been dated to before the time of Christ. Consider Julius Caesar’s Gallic Wars. Only ten copies written about 1,000 years after the event are in existence. In comparison, there are over 24,000+ New Testament manuscripts, the earliest one dating to within 24 years after Christ.

The Bible also validates its divine authorship through fulfilled prophecies. An astonishing 668 prophecies have been fulfilled and none have ever been proven false (three are unconfirmed). An honest study of biblical prophecy will compellingly show the divine authorship of the Bible. Further, archeology confirms (or in some cases supports) accounts in the biblical record. No other holy book comes close to the Bible in the amount of evidence supporting its divine authorship.

During services for Adoration of the Holy Sacrament, whenever the priest reads the stories within the gospel (for that particular day), I will cry. And for me, I've started attending Adorations for the Blessed Sacrament as of late, and have come to know elderly women who attend it on a regular basis.

Talking to them, and hearing their interpretations and their life experiences that revolves around the particular scriptural lesson within the gospel reading empowers me.

For me, I find strength in their faith. My faith increases in seeing their own faith. Ako, ma moved man jud ko to see elderly women in their golden ages of 80+ who have unwavering faith. And call on the Name of Jesus. Seeing them cry when the Priest presents the chalice that holds the Blessed Host--even evokes me to cry.

You can feel a presence of Holiness. Naa'y sense of peace. One that can even move a stubborn man such as myself to tears. Christ Have Mercy. Christ IS Mercy.

Cheers,

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asianfairy · « **Reply #82 on:** July 13, 2008, 01:41:41 pm »

Hala mora ug natouch nako ang G point ani.Kadugayan basin duna nay magdala ug sundang. he..he,

Seriously: I must apologized for my injudicious way of describing my comments re the bible.
However I stand firm in my persuasion that some religious interpretations of the words in the bible made is not consistent with the worlds present reality.

The bible has been a subject of confute for many great men in the past and present and albeit I am no expert in the study of religious doctrines and matters of divinity, I do have my own way of understanding the bible and still I am amazed that the catholic church and the protestant is NOT in harmony in their interpretation of the scriptures when both have studied the same ONE Bible.

A few vivid examples:

Ok ra sa mga protestant nga ang pastor magminyo ug manganak,
ang katoliko di gyod paminyoon ang pari.

Ang protestante di motoo or moworship aning mga birhen2x , ang mga katoliko sigi gihapon ug worship ani.
Ang katoliko ila gihapon pangadyean ang tawo nga patay na para daw mahilangit ang protestante dili na.

And even protestants in the Philippines and Europe are NOT agreeable about how they practised their beliefs. Here protestant dont consider PS a sin. In Phils, it is.

So who among these two great religious denomination is being literal or superficial in reading the bible?

We all are sinners and no one is better than the other. Who gives the heads of the church the right to declare that homos are guilty of wrongdoings according to the bible when they themselves are?

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asianfairy · « **Reply #83 on:** July 13, 2008, 02:43:03 pm »

PS:

Ako na gimodify tong akong earlier comments sa page 8 para di tanto ostentatious paminawon.

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #84 on:** July 13, 2008, 10:19:02 pm »

Very good points, Tita.

Despite the differences between Catholics, Orthodox and Protestants; differences in preaching scripture, differences in tradition, differences in methodology. In the long run, my dear Tita, we are all praising and worshiping the same ONE and ETERNAL and LIVING GOD. To whom there is no equal, no impossibilities, no one too 'small' for his mercies and his Love.

Katoliko, Baptist, Methodist, Orthodox, Born Again, etc. Why must we persecute each other when we all believe and accept Christ Jesus. God The Father and God the Holy Spirit.

I take these things with a grain of salt and accept the circumstances as it is presented to us. As what History has presented to us.

Tita, even the apostles Paul and Simon Peter disputed and disagreed. Like us, they were also human. But looking at their teachings in perspective, one cannot help but acquiesce to the fact that they both preached the same theme. The manner of ministery differed, but the Word that was taught was the same.

I have no problems with Protestants. Many of my closest friends are protestants and I used to attend a Protestant Bible Study in college; I had very colorful and genuinely spiritual lessons with them. Same theme, but different perspective--which is, almost if not exactly similar to that of what Catholic Church teaches.

Sige, let us all get back to biblical studies here. Who wants to start next? Tito Benne. By your lead, please.

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C2H4 · « **Reply #85 on:** July 13, 2008, 10:25:32 pm »

PS.
Dong Bran, ang ako buot ipaibot sa akong "dili logical" nga comments nga ang ubang nasulat sa bibliya morag lisod ipractise in reality. And you are aware yourself that even priest commits really BIG sins by sexually abusing young boys and not getting married but have many mistresses.

Mao na angay nalang unta itugot nalang na na sa catholic church nga paminyoon ang mga pari kay sa makasala ra sila.

Unya I dont believe nga kon way tuli di mahilangit???
OMG.

Sa una ako baya na nahurot basa ang New testament pero pagkahuman nalibog rako.

Ms. Bams...mobasa bapod ka ug bibliya?

Hala, tinuod gyud nang ubang mga pari gyud. Ambot na mention naman cguro nako nga akong uncle sa una naay problema sa iyang asawa mag cge sila adto sa kumbento kay magpa counseling ni Pader, na unsa naba nga lahi man nga klase sa counseling gihimo ni Pader oi. Hangtod karon, toa pa ang ex-wife sa akong uncle cgeg pa counseling ni Pader. Ngeks.

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benelynne · « **Reply #86 on:** July 13, 2008, 10:32:35 pm »

Hala, tinuod gyud nang ubang mga pari gyud. Ambot na mention naman cguro nako nga akong uncle sa una naay problema sa iyang asawa mag cge sila adto sa kumbento kay magpa counseling ni Pader, na unsa naba nga lahi man nga klase sa counseling gihimo ni Pader oi. Hangtod karon, toa pa ang ex-wife sa akong uncle cgeg pa counseling ni Pader. Ngeks.

I was raised a Catholic and received education from the Jesuits until college. When I got married, I started attending my wife's Protestant church just so we could be together on Sundays, and I found the free expression of worship liberating and exhilarating. I think there is an abundance of common ground in both for me to dwell in the differences.

I believe we can't be saved by religion. We are saved by our faith. Daghan pud ko disillusionments sa mga pari, but I also have first-hand experience of the weaknesses of pastors. So I don't focus on the frailties of man but on the perfection of God.

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simplylee · « **Reply #87 on:** July 13, 2008, 10:32:48 pm »

Sa una ako baya na nahurot basa ang New testament pero pagkahuman nalibog rako.

Ms. Bams...mobasa bapod ka ug bibliya?

makalibog bitaw basahon na ang bibliya. kinahanglan dili lang na basahon tun-an gyod. pareha sa schoolroom situation nga naay maestro ug naa pod mga studyante.

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benelynne · « **Reply #88 on:** July 13, 2008, 10:42:22 pm »

makalibog bitaw basahon na ang bibliya. kinahanglan dili lang na basahon tun-an gyod. pareha sa schoolroom situation nga naay maestro ug naa pod mga studyante.

Tinuod jud ni, Tita Lee. My interest in the Bible was aroused by a brilliant Japanese preacher whose expertise is the Old Testament. I was requested to interpret his preaching from Japanese to English everytime he preached at church. I had confidence in my language ability, but I realized that if you don't have a firm grasp of the content, you can't really interpret from one language to another effectively. So I started reading the Bibile, especially the Old Testament and the history of Israel. Auspiciously, I had a Christian study group that really patiently egged me on until I was able to catch up. Until now, I am still attending our Sunday evening sessions. Today, we finished 1 Kings 21 having more questions than answers... But if God's Word were so easily comprehensible, it would perhaps be because we are reducing His message to human terms. So we have learned to appreciate what we do not fully understand.

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C2H4 · « **Reply #89 on:** July 13, 2008, 10:43:49 pm »

I was raised a Catholic and received education from the Jesuits until college. When I got married, I started attending my wife's Protestant church just so we could be together on Sundays, and I found the free expression of worship liberating and exhilarating. I think there is an abundance of common ground in both for me to dwell in the differences.

I believe we can't be saved by religion. We are saved by our faith. Daghan pud ko disillusionments sa mga pari, but I also have first-hand experience of the weaknesses of pastors. So I don't focus on the frailties of man but on the perfection of God.

Very well said, Mr Bene. Sakto gyud, religion doesn't save us. Ang mga pari mga tawo ra man pud na sila, kung makasala sila, it's between them and God. It doesn't disillusion me, coz mas daghan man ko kaila nga mga maayo kaayo nga pari. Do you know Fr. Chapman SJ? He was my most beloved priest. I cried for days when he died.

With regards adtong pari nga cgeg counseling adtong ex-wife sa akong uncle, na affected baya gyud ang parish. Kay giluod siguro ang mga tawo maminaw niya magwali sa misa about God's teachings, unya cge siyag counseling on the side. I think the counseling has been going on for close to ten years now. What I don't understand is why wala gi futbol sa Obispo ning paria.

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ms da binsi · « **Reply #90 on:** July 13, 2008, 10:49:29 pm »

because the bishop himself knows that these priest are also human beings! Thyl as long as dili batang laki ang ilang gi on the side i really dont care bahalag daghan pa nga baje ilang gi kulokadidang, i dont care too cuz that is very normal.

Mao bitaw na nga until now sigi pa na gi debate sa Vatican nga ang pari should get married. Mo opposed tinali sad ang mga BADIDAT nga pari. haaay i dont know. I never went to church anymore for a long time. Bahala mo agree mo ug dili, basta I feel like am in HEAVEN now.

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simplylee · « **Reply #91 on:** July 13, 2008, 10:53:09 pm »

i agree! it is not advisable to study the bible on your own you have to have your right pastor-teacher(one of the spiritual gifts given by the Holy Spirit) who can help you understand the meaning of the written WORD. understanding the WORD needs isagogical, categorical and exegetical explanation.

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benelynne · « **Reply #92 on:** July 13, 2008, 10:54:07 pm »

Very well said, Mr Bene. Sakto gyud, religion doesn't save us. Ang mga pari mga tawo ra man pud na sila, kung makasala sila, it's between them and God. It doesn't disillusion me, coz mas daghan man ko kaila nga mga maayo kaayo nga pari. Do you know Fr. Chapman SJ? He was my most beloved priest. I cried for days when he died.

With regards adtong pari nga cgeg counseling adtong ex-wife sa akong uncle, na affected baya gyud ang parish. Kay giluod siguro ang mga tawo maminaw niya magwali sa misa about God's teachings, unya cge siyag counseling on the side. I think the counseling has been going on for close to ten years now. What I don't understand is why wala gi futbol sa Obispo ning paria.

We should at least be answerable to the laws of man before we can claim to stand for the laws of God and claim to be His servants. Erring clergymen, whether Catholic or Protestant, should be made to answer for their action. Ang problema ron sa Catholic Church, which the Church itself honestly admits, is the shortage of seminarians ug katong gusto mupari, so removal of a priest may deprive some parishes of a shepherd. Galing lang kay ug nasalaag ang shepherd, labin na jud ang mga kordero. Bitaw, affected parties should instigate formal action to relieve him.

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Bambi · « **Reply #93 on:** July 14, 2008, 04:33:39 am »

Hala, tinuod gyud nang ubang mga pari gyud. Ambot na mention naman cguro nako nga akong uncle sa una naay problema sa iyang asawa mag cge sila adto sa kumbento kay magpa counseling ni Pader, na unsa naba nga lahi man nga klase sa counseling gihimo ni Pader oi. Hangtod karon, toa pa ang ex-wife sa akong uncle cgeg pa counseling ni Pader. Ngeks.

Oh my dear BB...lucky aunt or poor uncle? whahahahaha

I'm sorry and do excuse I could just help myself. I think this Pader has more Power!

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Bambi · « **Reply #94 on:** July 14, 2008, 04:35:20 am »

i agree! it is not advisable to study the bible on your own you have to have your right pastor-teacher(one of the spiritual gifts given by the Holy Spirit) who can help you understand the meaning of the written WORD. understanding the WORD needs isagogical, categorical and exegetical explanation.

Well said Ms. simplylee

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #95 on:** July 14, 2008, 06:40:21 am »

Very well said, Mr Bene. Sakto gyud, religion doesn't save us. Ang mga pari mga tawo ra man pud na sila, kung makasala sila, it's between them and God. It doesn't disillusion me, coz mas daghan man ko kaila nga mga maayo kaayo nga pari. Do you know Fr. Chapman SJ? He was my most beloved priest. I cried for days when he died.

With regards adtong pari nga cgeg counseling adtong ex-wife sa akong uncle, na affected baya gyud ang parish. Kay giluod siguro ang mga tawo maminaw niya magwali sa misa about God's teachings, unya cge siyag counseling on the side. I think the counseling has been going on for close to ten years now. What I don't understand is why wala gi futbol sa Obispo ning paria.

This is true that religion does not save, it is in Faith and in Acting on Faith itself. The structure of religion does encourage the increase and development of faith through the reading and interpretation of scripture with fellow worshipers. This also includes in the act of adoration of the Blessed Sacrament, Prayers, Litanies, and the act of consecration.

As one who struggled with faith during my adolescent years, particularly all throughout my high school years, I particularly found it hard to accept the rules and structure of the Catholic Church. At the time.

When I left for college, it was when I was alone and distant from my parents and family, physically, that I found and reaffirmed my faith. Kai sa una when ever we would go to church, all liturgical teachings would pass me; that or i would dismiss the words as mere heresay, as mere stories and nothing more.

In college, I immediately realized that I needed something to hold me together. Even logical understandings and scientific methodology could not explain a natural need to 'believe'. I befriended a very good friend of mine to this day, Fr. Mark Hoffman, the catholic chaplain in my college. And I must say that we would have long-ended, glorious, and mind-refreshing conversations. Ranging to questions and talks on scripture, on politics, history and deeply on prayer.

I will always remember the words of Fr. Mark because he always stressed to me the power of PRAYER. He would tell me, "Al, you must open yourself to the Holy Spirit, open yourself to the word of God. To the name of Jesus. Many Americans, are deaf. Not physically deaf, but deaf to the call of God as it is in prayer that He communicates with us and it is in solid and candid prayer that we can truly understand what He has planned for us. Or accept the things that we cannot change and to find strength in what will and what has already happened."

My relationship with Fr. Mark Hoffman has reconnected me. I always thank him for allowing me to be "Born Again" Catholic . On the September of 2006 my sister and I enrolled for Catholic Confirmation with many catholic students as well as municipal members. We studied scripture with Fr. Mark and other ecclesiastical members. We read the entire bible; story per story, and our meetings were 3 times a week. Sometimes it would last from 3 hours to even 5 hours. Depending on the questions we had. LoL

Oh How I loved it! It has allowed me to accept and understand the structure of the Holy Catholic Church, and the teachings, the adoration of the sacraments, and most of all the adoration and consecration of the Holy Gospel.

There is no feeling that can describe the beauty of prayer, of worshiping and singing praises to Our Father. It is true though, that religion does not save, but religion itself can influence and increase Faith itself. Faith comes to the individual. God Claims His Own in due time. Trust me.

For me, mo add lang ko sa aning mga priestly order. I do understand the points of what you guys are saying; and do agree with you that some of these instances of priests molesting young children is completely abhorable. These individuals do not represent the holy order of priests. These are exceptions, and I can only pray for them for the forgiveness of their souls for their actions. It is not right for us to condemn, but to pray for them so that mercy shall be given to them from God. But on a human level, I believe that they should be punished harshly and accordingly to their actions.

Outside of that, the holy orders of priesthood and sisterhood, brotherhood and missionary work are holy orders. God has spoken to them to join in order to spread His Word. And these callings are genuine and true. For that I truly respect priests and those who are seminarian majors and seminarian minors. For they have answered what many do not.

Blessed Be God The Most High,
and Peace to His People on Earth,

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ms da binsi · « **Reply #96 on:** July 14, 2008, 06:52:43 am »

Ay! i have a question?

What is that Holy Water for?

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benelynne · « **Reply #97 on:** July 14, 2008, 06:57:44 am »

Dong Lorenzo,

I really admire intelligent, young men, pursuing academic study in the sciences whose foundation of faith is strong. You seem just like one of the guys I sit down with every Sunday evening for a Bible study. Among the really active members of our group are PhD candidates in Chemistry, Remote Sensing Technology, Biotechnology, Physics, etc. in the University of Tsukuba and research institutes surrounding it. Our Taiwanese pastor is himself a master's degree holder in Mechanical Engineering, aside from his M.A. in divinity at an American theological school. With such a multi-disciplinary background, our discussion and reflection of the Word becomes even more interesting. We do express wonder, surprise, confusion, and sometimes a generous dose of laughter at passages we don't understand, but we believe that the insufficiency of our understanding does not detract from the immensity of His truth.

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #98 on:** July 14, 2008, 07:12:53 am »

Tito Benne,

There is a side story that I would like to share with you.

During the Fall of 2007 and during Spring of 2006, I taught Ecological Biology Lab with my Adviser, Dr. Ostrofsky. There was one time when we went up the Allegheny Mountains next to the Boussard National Wild Life Conservatory, which my college owns.

Dr. Ostrofsky ra and me. Then he asked me something that has been printed in my mind. "Isn't it beautiful?" (He was regarding the evergreen trees, the ecological wilde life that we were looking and observing at). I answered him, "Yes, Professor." And he responded with something that bewildered me, "His creations are too good."

This shocked me, Tito, because I always thought Dr. Ostrofsky was an agnostic or an atheist. Because he never made reference to his faith during class, during labs or during our weekly meetings. I found out that he was, indeed, a born again. But for me it was something because this man not only specializes in environmental biology (limnology, ecology, streams aquatics, toxicology and evolution). Yet he believes.

I would say that I stand with Dr. Ostrofsky when it comes to The Most High.

When I worked in Organics Laboratory, when I taught Molecular Biology Laboratory, Ecology, etc you deal with science on a daily basis. And can't help but notice that there is so much beauty within these given fields. How electrons, react to protons, neutrons. Why the transcriptional processes works and how it works--its relation to the translational pathway and the elongational pathway. And the necessary proteins, activators, inhibitors etc. Everything is perfectly created. Perfectly Designed. The Almighty's fingerprints are written in science. And it bears testament to His intelligence.

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B:) · « **Reply #99 on:** July 14, 2008, 08:19:11 am »

Bran, thank you for taking your time in answering my question.
You don't have to pick a context from the bible to confirm who wrote it.

Here's the thing that I'm not sure you know and everyone here know about the Bible:

The bible was written hundreds and hundreds of years ago by men, and NO ONE knows who they were. When the CATHOLIC Church knows about it, they call the highest possible leaders of the church and gather around to study about it. They found out that some context were really bad that they literally removed it. And didn't tell anyone about it. So if they were able to do this, that means, they add and remove anything according to their likes and dislikes. So do you think God the Holy Spirit told them to do this?

So now that I'm older and knows a lot of it, I was kind of skeptical about the whole thing. And I will go crazy if I follow it word for word. Or context by context and try to makes some reflections after.

The bible is basically written by men that no one knows who they were. Someone out there hundreds of years ago claimed that it came from the word of God. The Catholic church loves the power and grab every possible thing to let the people know that this is it! The Popes, Cardinals and what have you were the most brutal people I could imagine. They burned people, hang them, cut their heads....I mean....what kind of work is that?
So as not to confuse you guys to where I really stand, for me whatever I believe and do? all I know...God is there and we all seek to him, it's just that all of us have different roads or path to go and follow Him.
The bible is a book to remind me that God is there but to really read it again and again and again and memorize it, no I think i've done that many years ago already and that was more than enough. It's only a matter of how you interpret it and apply it in our day to day life.
For as long as I live my life peacefully and be good to others as much as they are to me, God is with me.
I don't have to re-read the bible over and over and tell everyone about it.
Each one of us was given 2 gifts from God.. INTELLECT and FREE WILL. Therefore I use it wisely as much as I can. I don't have to shout the whole world and tell them this is what I do and this is not what I didn't do and for what? let the people judge me?....for short...I don't need anybody to tell me and remind me that God is there and read the Bible...why would I? GOD IS ALREADY WITH ME..I feel his presents in me and that's all I need to know.

So pardon me guys if I'm a little too strong, I do respect all what you are talking about here...some I agree and some I don't, that's normal right!
These are just my opinions.. possibly the first and my last. This is pobably what happen after all what I've been through at an early age, lows and highs and lows and high again...what can I say that's life. And NO ONE knows when will I die, not even the Bible can answer that. And I don't even want to know...I am more than ready anytime God wants me.

Afraid of death is another story. And sad to say some people loves to read the bible, to feel secure and feed their minds because it gives them comfort and divert their attention out of possible death.

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #100 on:** July 14, 2008, 09:44:05 am »

Tito Benne,

Shall we continue on? By your lead, Tito.

To Beth,

Thanks for sharing your opinion.

Let us proceed to studies. The next question:

For what reason was Lucifer thrust out of Heaven? What scriptural passage indicates this. What exactly did Lucifer want that warranted punishment? Please add any personal interpretation and or views if you want.

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slackware · « **Reply #101 on:** July 14, 2008, 12:04:55 pm »

Story of Lucifer â€“ His Status
What kind of iniquity was found of him? In the book of Ezekiel, God has let us stand with Him at the very beginning, to see the origin and the creation of Satan. But, why does God say this? What is this iniquity? We must look back to Isaiah 14:12, which tells us of Lucifer/Satan's choice. "I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit on the mount of assembly on the heights of Zaphon; I will ascend to the tops of the clouds, I will make myself like the Most High." Did you notice in this passage all of the "I wills. " He said he would exalt his throne above the stars of God. The word "stars" here does not refer to what we see in the night sky. It refers to the angels of God. In other words, "I will take over heaven, I will be God." That is Lucifer/Satan's sin and that is the iniquity that was found in him. He does not want to be God's servant. He does not want to do what he was created to do. He wants to be served and there are millions who have chosen to do just that; serve him. They have listened to his lies and chosen to follow him. Eve believed the lie that she would be like God. The reason Lucifer/Satan tempted her with that was because it is the very thing that he wants -- to be God.

more details on http://www.allaboutgod.com/story-of-lucifer.htm

sa Islam wala man ang term na fallen angels kay according to The Noble Quran, angels were created by God without the gift of freewill. They only serve and obey the will of God. dili sila maka bo-ot2x ug ilaha. Mas maayo pa ang tao kay naa pay freewill.

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asianfairy · « **Reply #102 on:** July 14, 2008, 02:40:44 pm »

Ms Beth, I can only say: AMEN!

Bran, thank you for taking your time in answering my question.
You don't have to pick a context from the bible to confirm who wrote it.

Here's the thing that I'm not sure you know and everyone here know about the Bible:

The bible was written hundreds and hundreds of years ago by men, and NO ONE knows who they were. When the CATHOLIC Church knows about it, they call the highest possible leaders of the church and gather around to study about it. They found out that some context were really bad that they literally removed it. And didn't tell anyone about it. So if they were able to do this, that means, they add and remove anything according to their likes and dislikes. So do you think God the Holy Spirit told them to do this?

So now that I'm older and knows a lot of it, I was kind of skeptical about the whole thing. And I will go crazy if I follow it word for word. Or context by context and try to makes some reflections after.

The bible is basically written by men that no one knows who they were. Someone out there hundreds of years ago claimed that it came from the word of God. The Catholic church loves the power and grab every possible thing to let the people know that this is it! The Popes, Cardinals and what have you were the most brutal people I could imagine. They burned people, hang them, cut their heads....I mean....what kind of work is that?
So as not to confuse you guys to where I really stand, for me whatever I believe and do? all I know...God is there and we all seek to him, it's just that all of us have different roads or path to go and follow Him.
The bible is a book to remind me that God is there but to really read it again and again and again and memorize it, no I think i've done that many years ago already and that was more than enough. It's only a matter of how you interpret it and apply it in our day to day life.
For as long as I live my life peacefully and be good to others as much as they are to me, God is with me.
I don't have to re-read the bible over and over and tell everyone about it.
Each one of us was given 2 gifts from God.. INTELLECT and FREE WILL. Therefore I use it wisely as much as I can. I don't have to shout the whole world and tell them this is what I do and this is not what I didn't do and for what? let the people judge me?....for short...I don't need anybody to tell me and remind me that God is there and read the Bible...why would I? GOD IS ALREADY WITH ME..I feel his presents in me and that's all I need to know.

So pardon me guys if I'm a little too strong, I do respect all what you are talking about here...some I agree and some I don't, that's normal right!
These are just my opinions.. possibly the first and my last. This is pobably what happen after all what I've been through at an early age, lows and highs and lows and high again...what can I say that's life. And NO ONE knows when will I die, not even the Bible can answer that. And I don't even want to know...I am more than ready anytime God wants me.

Afraid of death is another story. And sad to say some people loves to read the bible, to feel secure and feed their minds because it gives them comfort and divert their attention out of possible death.

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ms da binsi · « **Reply #103 on:** July 14, 2008, 09:02:42 pm »

Ms Beth, I can only say: AMEN!

I second the motion A.

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benelynne · « **Reply #104 on:** July 14, 2008, 10:22:49 pm »

I second the motion A.

Belle, didto pohon sa atong Green TubagBohol Village, mag-organize kog choir para sa three-fold Amen composed of you, A and Beth.

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #105 on:** July 15, 2008, 12:17:42 am »

Story of Lucifer â€“ His Status
What kind of iniquity was found of him? In the book of Ezekiel, God has let us stand with Him at the very beginning, to see the origin and the creation of Satan. But, why does God say this? What is this iniquity? We must look back to Isaiah 14:12, which tells us of Lucifer/Satan's choice. "I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit on the mount of assembly on the heights of Zaphon; I will ascend to the tops of the clouds, I will make myself like the Most High." Did you notice in this passage all of the "I wills. " He said he would exalt his throne above the stars of God. The word "stars" here does not refer to what we see in the night sky. It refers to the angels of God. In other words, "I will take over heaven, I will be God." That is Lucifer/Satan's sin and that is the iniquity that was found in him. He does not want to be God's servant. He does not want to do what he was created to do. He wants to be served and there are millions who have chosen to do just that; serve him. They have listened to his lies and chosen to follow him. Eve believed the lie that she would be like God. The reason Lucifer/Satan tempted her with that was because it is the very thing that he wants -- to be God.

more details on http://www.allaboutgod.com/story-of-lucifer.htm

sa Islam wala man ang term na fallen angels kay according to The Noble Quran, angels were created by God without the gift of freewill. They only serve and obey the will of God. dili sila maka bo-ot2x ug ilaha. Mas maayo pa ang tao kay naa pay freewill.

Mao ba, Anastacio? Thanks for the answer, interesting pood ang explanation gi hatag nimo in reference to the Q'uran's stance on the topic.

It is quite puzzling sometimes when one reads Isaiah 14, which states, (In reference to what Lucifer Declared in Heaven) "But you said in your heart, I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God, and I will sit on the mount of assembly in the recesses of the north. I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High."

And The Lord responded, as what Isaiah 14:15 reveals to us, "Nevertheless you will be thrust down to Sheol, to the recesses of the pit."

For me, reading this particular verse is puzzling. Because one understands that the Angel Lucifer already saw the face of God, and was given the beatific vision. Complete and Ultimate bliss in communion with The Almighty. Yet he was able to turn away from God? He rejected Complete and Eternal Communion with The Most High?

We even witness this in reading Ezekiel 28, "You were the anointed cherub who covers, and I placed you there, you were on the holy mountain of God; you walked in the midst of the stones of fire. You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created, until unrighteousness was found in you."

as well as in Rev. 12:4, 9, "Even though created beautiful and good, Satan, the top angel of God fell into sin and took a third of the other angels with him."

And it is in this particular passage that we see the entrance of Sin into the world. The Rebellion of Lucifer against The Most High. Lucifer even went far enough to tempt Adam and Eve, whom The Lord created in His own image.

But my question, or rhetorical question if I may, is that why was Lucifer able to reject God? He was given the beautific vision of The Most High. And was the First to be created. What compelled Lucifer to rebel against His Father in Heaven? And, accordingly, why did not The Most High dispose of Lucifer with a mere thought? Did He know that this will come to pass? Does Lucifer and His Legion of Fallen Angels know that their time is nigh? That their doom has been secured by the coming of the Christ?

I do know that after the war in Heaven, after Archangel Michael, the Prince of the Heavenly Host thrust Lucifer, the Most abominable, Most Unclean, Most Unrighteous, Father of Lies, Hate Incarnate, Most Untrue--that all the remaining Angels were given the beatific vision. And therefore are linked to The Almighty. Theirs is the responsibility of Exalting The Most High for Everlasting Time.

Tito Benne, Ma'am Lee, Brod Mike, can you guys please answer some of my questions.

Cheers,

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B:) · « **Reply #106 on:** July 15, 2008, 04:16:41 am »

Belle, didto pohon sa atong Green TubagBohol Village, mag-organize kog choir para sa three-fold Amen composed of you, A and Beth.

Nong Benny, I will certainly would love that

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ms da binsi · « **Reply #107 on:** July 15, 2008, 04:21:07 am »

Belle, didto pohon sa atong Green TubagBohol Village, mag-organize kog choir para sa three-fold Amen composed of you, A and Beth.

Sure! unsa man ngalan sa Choir?

Amen trio? hahaha

i always love to be in a choir pero wa jud na matuman nga dream.

one day matuman na jud na when you will organize that...

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #108 on:** July 16, 2008, 03:32:46 am »

When I read these particular excerpts from Ezekiel and Isaiah, I am left in complete abhoration as well as in discernment. How is it that 1/3rd of all the Angels in Heaven were fooled into the service of Lucifer to rebel against the Throne of The Almighty?

How is it that they, the Hosts of Heaven, were able to rebel and reject Divine Communion with the Almighty?

What was it that allowed them to side with Lucifer against the Name of God? Did they truly believe that they could usurp the throne of God? How can They, in their minds, think that they could depose the Creator of All Things?

Did they not think that they too could be destroyed by the Being that created them with a mere thought? The Almighty Father in Heaven.

Truly, this being named Lucifer, was wise and daring enough to temp 1/3rd of all the Angels in Heaven.

If he can do that, easily he can influence the world of men. Who are inferior to the Divine Angels.

Contemplating these words from Holy Scripture sends chills down my spine. And look only to God and His Mighty Power, Archangel Michael for protection. The same Angel that thrust Satan and his Legion of usurpers out of Heaven and into the Pit of Sheol (Hell).

Blessed be God the Mighty and Highest!
Whom All Things are Possible.

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #109 on:** July 16, 2008, 11:13:57 am »

Circumcision was part of God's covenant with Abraham and the Jews:

Genesis 17

10 This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep: Every male among you shall be circumcised. 11 You are to undergo circumcision, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and you. 12 For the generations to come every male among you who is eight days old must be circumcised, including those born in your household or bought with money from a foreigner— those who are not your offspring.

Circumcision was an external sign of a spiritual relationship, which set the Jews apart from the rest of mankind as the chosen people of God. However, history showed that the Jewish people became more and more fixated to the external signs, statutes, and ceremonies rather than their inward spirituality. Of course, this tendency is not peculiar to the Jews but resonates to human nature in general. Rather than facing our frailties, we explain away our violative tendencies through legalism.

The dispensation of grace, as contrasted to that of law, ushered in by Christ in the New Testament restores the pre-eminence of our relationship to God in our practice of spirituality. For instance, Christ has redefined the legalistic frames of such common offenses as "adultery" and "murder." We commit adultery not only when we lie in bed with someone not our spouse but also when we look at another person with lust. We commit murder not only when we kill a person by intent but also when we harbor deep hatred in our hearts towards him.

Thus, as with the Jews, we can no longer use physical circumcision as a blanket affirmation of our belongingness to God. Note that even in the Old Testament, physical circumcision was meant to come together with circumcision of our hearts, as was commanded in Deuteronomy 10 and 30. Unless our hearts are marked as of God, it does not matter much if we are externally marked as God's people in circumcision. We cannot use religious appearances in place of real spirituality of the heart.

Paul preached this in his letter to the Romans:

Romans 2
29No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man's praise is not from men, but from God.

Therefore, physical circumcision is not a necessary and essential condition for salvation, but spiritual circumcision is.

Excellent points, Tito Benne.

I actually stumbled on a particular passage in Jeremiah 9:24-25 which literally dictates the worthless nature of circumcission. It supports your points, Tito.

The passage itself, "See, days are coming, says the Lord, when I will demand an account of all those circumcised in their flesh. Egypt and Judah, Edom and the Amonites, Mab and the desert dwellers who shave their temples. For all these nations, like the whole house of Israel, are uncircumcised in heart.

The WORD of the Lord

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #110 on:** July 20, 2008, 09:20:17 am »

Let's get back to discussions.

What does â€˜born of Himâ€™ mean? (1 John 2:29) From 1 John 2:29 show the connection John is making between being born of God and what kind of life he should live because of that new birth. How is this connected to 1 John 3:9? Put this verse in your own words.

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Way Nada · « **Reply #111 on:** July 31, 2008, 02:58:39 pm »

Excellent points, Tito Benne.

I actually stumbled on a particular passage in Jeremiah 9:24-25 which literally dictates the worthless nature of circumcission. It supports your points, Tito.

The passage itself, "See, days are coming, says the Lord, when I will demand an account of all those circumcised in their flesh. Egypt and Judah, Edom and the Amonites, Mab and the desert dwellers who shave their temples. For all these nations, like the whole house of Israel, are uncircumcised in heart.

The WORD of the Lord

Circumcision is a Jewish tradition. This rite of circumcision is a mark that you are a Jew. In olden times people are uncircumcised so the Jews to distinguish themselves as the chosen people of God so they branded themselves by circumcision. This look like paganistic because you are hurting a person but now we Christians accept this tradition or else you will be a 'baho ug oten kay wa kay tuli daghan ka ug tiktik'.

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #112 on:** August 10, 2008, 10:49:46 pm »

After he had fed the people, Jesus made the disciples get into a boat
and precede him to the other side,
while he dismissed the crowds.
After doing so, he went up on the mountain by himself to pray.
When it was evening he was there alone.
Meanwhile the boat, already a few miles offshore,
was being tossed about by the waves, for the wind was against it.
During the fourth watch of the night,
he came toward them walking on the sea.
When the disciples saw him walking on the sea they were terrified.
â€œIt is a ghost,â€ they said, and they cried out in fear.
At once Jesus spoke to them, â€œTake courage, it is I; do not be afraid.â€
Peter said to him in reply,
â€œLord, if it is you, command me to come to you on the water.â€
He said, â€œCome.â€
Peter got out of the boat and began to walk on the water toward Jesus.
But when he saw how strong the wind was he became frightened;
and, beginning to sink, he cried out, â€œLord, save me!â€
Immediately Jesus stretched out his hand and caught Peter,
and said to him, â€œO you of little faith, why did you doubt?â€
After they got into the boat, the wind died down.
Those who were in the boat did him homage, saying,
â€œTruly, you are the Son of God.â€

Mt 14:22-33

What are the symbolisms of the wind, and other factors?

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #113 on:** March 28, 2009, 09:36:31 am »

What does the Bible say about God's Promise to Israel in regards to the Holy Land?

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Bad Godesberg · « **Reply #114 on:** March 29, 2009, 06:45:06 am »

God has given us promises that we can rely on when we are in need of comfort
and assurance. These promises were made by a loving Heavenly Father and it is
very comforting to know that God loves us and He ALWAYS keeps His promises. When
praying to the Father, take His promises before Him.

Matthew 11 : 29
Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart:
and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

+JLY

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #115 on:** March 29, 2009, 03:19:44 pm »

What does the Bible say about God's Promise to Israel in regards to the Holy Land?

Solid answer to this question can be found in Jeremiah 31.

I will share it:

The days are coming, says the LORD, when I will seed the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the seed of man and the seed of beast.
28
As I once watched over them to uproot and pull down, to destroy, to ruin, and to harm, so I will watch over them to build and to plant, says the LORD.
29
In those days they shall no longer say, "The fathers ate unripe grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge,"
30
but through his own fault only shall anyone die: the teeth of him who eats the unripe grapes shall be set on edge.
31
The days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah.
32
It will not be like the covenant I made with their fathers the day I took them by the hand to lead them forth from the land of Egypt; for they broke my covenant and I had to show myself their master, says the LORD.
33
But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD. I will place my law within them, and write it upon their hearts; I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34
No longer will they have need to teach their friends and kinsmen how to know the LORD. All, from least to greatest, shall know me, says the LORD, for I will forgive their evildoing and remember their sin no more.
35
Thus says the LORD, He who gives the sun to light the day, moon and stars to light the night; Who stirs up the sea till its waves roar, whose name is LORD of hosts:
36
If ever these natural laws give way in spite of me, says the LORD, Then shall the race of Israel cease as a nation before me forever.
37
Thus says the LORD: If the heavens on high can be measured, or the foundations below the earth be sounded, Then will I cast off the whole race of Israel because of all they have done, says the LORD.
38
The days are coming, says the LORD, when the city shall be rebuilt as the LORD'S, from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate.
39
The measuring line shall be stretched from there straight to the hill Gareb and then turn to Goah.
40
The whole valley of corpses and ashes, all the slopes toward the Kidron Valley, as far as the corner of the Horse Gate at the east, shall be holy to the LORD. Never again shall the city be rooted up or thrown down.

--Jeremiah 31: 27-40

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Way Nada · « **Reply #116 on:** March 30, 2009, 07:28:24 am »

Solid answer to this question can be found in Jeremiah 31.

I will share it:

The days are coming, says the LORD, when I will seed the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the seed of man and the seed of beast.
28
As I once watched over them to uproot and pull down, to destroy, to ruin, and to harm, so I will watch over them to build and to plant, says the LORD.
29
In those days they shall no longer say, "The fathers ate unripe grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge,"
30
but through his own fault only shall anyone die: the teeth of him who eats the unripe grapes shall be set on edge.
31
The days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah.
32
It will not be like the covenant I made with their fathers the day I took them by the hand to lead them forth from the land of Egypt; for they broke my covenant and I had to show myself their master, says the LORD.
33
But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD. I will place my law within them, and write it upon their hearts; I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34
No longer will they have need to teach their friends and kinsmen how to know the LORD. All, from least to greatest, shall know me, says the LORD, for I will forgive their evildoing and remember their sin no more.
35
Thus says the LORD, He who gives the sun to light the day, moon and stars to light the night; Who stirs up the sea till its waves roar, whose name is LORD of hosts:
36
If ever these natural laws give way in spite of me, says the LORD, Then shall the race of Israel cease as a nation before me forever.
37
Thus says the LORD: If the heavens on high can be measured, or the foundations below the earth be sounded, Then will I cast off the whole race of Israel because of all they have done, says the LORD.
38
The days are coming, says the LORD, when the city shall be rebuilt as the LORD'S, from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate.
39
The measuring line shall be stretched from there straight to the hill Gareb and then turn to Goah.
40
The whole valley of corpses and ashes, all the slopes toward the Kidron Valley, as far as the corner of the Horse Gate at the east, shall be holy to the LORD. Never again shall the city be rooted up or thrown down.

--Jeremiah 31: 27-40

Lorenzo,

This prophecy of Jeremiah is not yet fully fulfilled. The realization in the fulfillment of this prophecy is to wipe out the people living in Jerusalem or be converted to Judaism and the mosque or the Dome of the Rock should be destroyed and be replaced by the third temple.

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #117 on:** March 30, 2009, 01:47:42 pm »

Way Nada,

We have to take into consideration the historiography of the setting and time when this written. Prophet Jeremiah lived in around 600 BC, and during that time, Israel was sacked and invaded by Babylon under the reign of Emperor Nebuchadnezzar. The Babylonians, upon storming through the gates of Jerusalem not only eradicated the defense, but also leveled the Jewish Temple that was constructed by Kings David and Solomon.

It is apparent to us that Prophet Jeremiah was sent to the people of Israel, to lament over the sins of Israel to warrant the judgment of God. Yet, in accordance to the said and aforementioned scriptural reference, they were set free.

The rule of Babylon and its yolk over Judea ended by the coming of King Cyrus the Great of Persia, which was mentioned in scripture:

And I quote from two specific verses in scripture:

Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of The Lord spoken by the mouth of Jeremiah might be accomplished, The Lord stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and put it also in writing, saying, Thus saith Cyrus king of Persia, All the kingdoms of the earth hath The Lord God of heaven given me; and he hath charged me to build him an house in Jerusalem, which is in Judah. Who is there among you of all His people? The Lord his God be with him, and let him go up."
(2 Chronicles 36:22-23)

and

"Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of The Lord by the mouth of Jeremiah might be fulfilled, The Lord stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and put it also in writing, saying, Thus saith Cyrus king of Persia, The Lord God of heaven hath given me all the kingdoms of the earth; and he hath charged me to build him an house at Jerusalem, which is in Judah. Who is there among you of all His people? His God be with him, and let him go up to Jerusalem, which is in Judah, and build the house of The Lord God of Israel, He is the God, which is in Jerusalem."
(Ezra 1:1-3)

---

The temple was rebuilt again, Way Nada, after the liberation of Israel from Babylon under the will of Cyrus the Great, who was, as relegated in scripture, the anointed of the Most High.

As for your mentioning of the needing to level the Dome of the Rock and the conversion of peoples to Judaism. That is not necessary.

It is important to note that the arrival of Christ, who is The WORD of God and IS God, completed that prophecy and finalized it.

The Lord Jesus Christ, who is THE WORD, and is God Made Flesh, himself prophesied:

Jesus answered and said to them, "Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up."
The Jews said, "This temple has been under construction for forty-six years, and you will raise it up in three days?"
But he was speaking about the temple of his body.
Therefore, when he was raised from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this, and they came to believe the scripture and the word Jesus had spoken.
--John 2: 19-22

Christ's death on the Cross destroyed the Jewish Temple, and his rising on the 3rd day solidifies His promise that was ushered by Jeremiah, and again in John 2, which was also the construction of the new Temple. This was made so in the Transfiguration of Christ Jesus, Our Lord on the 3rd day. And on the following days of Pentecost.

Yours In Christ,
Lorenzo

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #118 on:** March 31, 2009, 08:28:50 am »

After he had fed the people, Jesus made the disciples get into a boat
and precede him to the other side,
while he dismissed the crowds.
After doing so, he went up on the mountain by himself to pray.
When it was evening he was there alone.
Meanwhile the boat, already a few miles offshore,
was being tossed about by the waves, for the wind was against it.
During the fourth watch of the night,
he came toward them walking on the sea.
When the disciples saw him walking on the sea they were terrified.
â€œIt is a ghost,â€ they said, and they cried out in fear.
At once Jesus spoke to them, â€œTake courage, it is I; do not be afraid.â€
Peter said to him in reply,
â€œLord, if it is you, command me to come to you on the water.â€
He said, â€œCome.â€
Peter got out of the boat and began to walk on the water toward Jesus.
But when he saw how strong the wind was he became frightened;
and, beginning to sink, he cried out, â€œLord, save me!â€
Immediately Jesus stretched out his hand and caught Peter,
and said to him, â€œO you of little faith, why did you doubt?â€
After they got into the boat, the wind died down.
Those who were in the boat did him homage, saying,
â€œTruly, you are the Son of God.â€

Mt 14:22-33

What are the symbolisms of the wind, and other factors?

There is beauty and completeness in this biblical reference. The waves and the wind represents the authority of the Powers, Principalities, Cherubim and other fallen angels that were cast down along with Lucifer, May The Lord God Rebuke him.

Christ's calming of the waves, the storms, and the wind by a mere word solidifies His Power. The WORD made Flesh. He who had authority to cleanse the possessed from spirits and demons, had the the same authority to command the storms to stop, for fishes to be caught on nets, and ultimately, the raising of Lazarus from the dead.

No prophet has such power. Christ was not a prophet. Christ Jesus, was the Word of God. And IS God.

JESUS CHRIST, Our Lord, explicitly said this.

Remember:

Are you greater than our father Abraham, who died?
Or the prophets, who died? Who do you make yourself out to be?"
Jesus answered, "If I glorify myself, my glory is worth nothing; but it is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say, 'He is our God.'
You do not know him, but I know him. And if I should say that I do not know him,
I would be like you a liar. But I do know him and I keep his word.
Abraham your father rejoiced to see my day; he saw it and was glad.
So the Jews said to him, "You are not yet fifty years old and you have seen Abraham?"
Jesus said to them, "Amen, amen, I say to you, before Abraham came to be, I AM."

-John 8: 54-58

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Way Nada · « **Reply #119 on:** March 31, 2009, 09:48:34 am »

Quote from two specific verses in scripture:

Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of The Lord spoken by the mouth of Jeremiah might be accomplished, The Lord stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and put it also in writing, saying, Thus saith Cyrus king of Persia, All the kingdoms of the earth hath The Lord God of heaven given me; and he hath charged me to build him an house in Jerusalem, which is in Judah. Who is there among you of all His people? The Lord his God be with him, and let him go up."
(2 Chronicles 36:22-23)

and

"Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of The Lord by the mouth of Jeremiah might be fulfilled, The Lord stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and put it also in writing, saying, Thus saith Cyrus king of Persia, The Lord God of heaven hath given me all the kingdoms of the earth; and he hath charged me to build him an house at Jerusalem, which is in Judah. Who is there among you of all His people? His God be with him, and let him go up to Jerusalem, which is in Judah, and build the house of The Lord God of Israel, He is the God, which is in Jerusalem."
(Ezra 1:1-3)

Lorenzo:

I agree with you! I think Jeremiah's prophecy you quote yesterday was the emancipation of the Israelites from exile in Babylon.

Lorenzo opined:

"The temple was rebuilt again, Way Nada, after the liberation of Israel from Babylon under the will of Cyrus the Great, who was, as relegated in scripture, the anointed of the Most High.

As for your mentioning of the needing to level the Dome of the Rock and the conversion of peoples to Judaism. That is not necessary."

Reply:

The conversion to Judaism refers to the lost tribe of Israel. For us Christian the re-building of the temple is not necessary but for the Jews the re-building of the third temple is an obsession as it is the center of their religious life, culture and the history of the Jewish people.

During the 7 days war of 1967 when the Israeli Army conquered Jerusalem, a coronel and his men communicated with Moshe Dayan the chief of the Israeli Army, telling him that he and his men are atop the Temple Mount. Moshe Dayan called up Golda Meir the Prime Minister of Israel at that time, telling her about the situation at the Temple Mount. Golda Meir ordered the Army to stay put. It was understood that the coronel and his men were waiting the order to blow up the Dome of the Rock.

It was politics that prevented the event to happen.

Lorenzo opined:

"It is important to note that the arrival of Christ, who is The WORD of God and IS God, completed that prophecy and finalized it.

The Lord Jesus Christ, who is THE WORD, and is God Made Flesh, himself prophesied:

Jesus answered and said to them, "Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up."

The Jews said, "This temple has been under construction for forty-six years, and you will raise it up in three days?"

But he was speaking about the temple of his body.
Therefore, when he was raised from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this, and they came to believe the scripture and the word Jesus had spoken.
--John 2: 19-22

Reply:

These passages in the bible is an allegorical story. This was written for the purpose of doctrinal teaching and to give strength of the idea in the divinity of Christ. This is an allegorical story because the verses you are quoting were from John which was written 7 to 8 decades after death of Christ. When Christ rebuked the Jews in the temple and said; "Destroy this temple", the literal temple was really destroyed because it was razed to the ground by the Roman soldiers in 70 AD. This means the story of Jesus came later than the destruction of the temple. It's John making a parallel story of the temple.

Lorenzo opined:

Christ's death on the Cross destroyed the Jewish Temple, and his rising on the 3rd day solidifies His promise that was ushered by Jeremiah, and again in John 2, which was also the construction of the new Temple. This was made so in the Transfiguration of Christ Jesus, Our Lord on the 3rd day. And on the following days of Pentecost.

Reply:

This opinion is like the "Theology of Replacement".

WN

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