Author Topic: Hans Kung: Why Am I Staying in the Church? (Read 8727 times)

chicogon · « **on:** February 26, 2013, 04:38:29 PM »

"Why am I staying in the Church? Because, in critical loyalty, there is so much in this community and its history that I can affirm, so much in this community from which, like so many other, I draw life. I am staying in the Church, because along with the other members of this community of faith, we are the Church... I am staying in the Church because, with all the many objections against it, here I am at home. Here, all the great questions are asked: the where and the whence, the why and how of human beings and our world...

...I am staying in the Church because I have been convinced by Jesus Christ and all that he stands for, and because the Church-community, despite all its failures, pleads the cause of Jesus Christ and must continue to so do."

- Hans KÃ¼ng, quoted in I Believe: A Workbook for Theology 1 (via Denib Josette Fukuzawa Suguitan)

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islander · « **Reply #1 on:** February 26, 2013, 04:46:47 PM »

very nice. he might as well have spoken for most if not all of us.

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chicogon · « **Reply #2 on:** February 26, 2013, 04:58:49 PM »

Hans Kung

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hubag bohol · « **Reply #3 on:** February 26, 2013, 05:03:05 PM »

Hans Kung: Why Am I Staying in the Church?

Hmm, kanus-a kaha ang Hans Kung: Why Did I Criticize Pope Benedict?

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chicogon · « **Reply #4 on:** February 26, 2013, 05:09:55 PM »

Hans Kung: Why Am I Staying in the Church?

Hmm, kanus-a kaha ang Hans Kung: Why Did I Criticize Pope Benedict?

He doesn't have to, he's a theologian. His job is to seek the truth for us. Mao bitaw bisan ge criticized niya ang Pope imbitado gehapon siya one on one with the pope. Ratzinger is also a theologian so he understand the position of Hans Kung. Kung kita pa to ni criticize, aw, morag di man ta authority on the subject. Basin ma kick out ta nga di ma spelling hehehe

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chicogon · « **Reply #5 on:** February 26, 2013, 05:17:13 PM »

Hans Kung is a formidable theologian and for the longest time, since Vatican II, has been a respectable resource of many students of theology. Wa ta kahibaw basin naa ni siyay kslihotgot nganong wa mahimong obispo kay ang iyang contemporary nga si Ratzinger nahimo mang obispo... eventually a cardinal, then a pope, hehehe

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chicogon · « **Reply #6 on:** February 26, 2013, 05:18:20 PM »

Magkatiguwang baya ning tawo... and he is now!

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hofelina · « **Reply #7 on:** February 26, 2013, 06:38:07 PM »

Professor Hans Kueng is a professor collegeau of now Pope Benedict. He is a harsh critic of the catholic (absolutism)authoritatian system. This has irritated the late blessed Pope John II, he was not allowed to teach Theology and was even warned to be excommunicated. As Pope Benedict took over, Kueng was happy to be invited as personal friend but nothing is said about his personal criticism of the church. Professor Kueng started "Weltethos" foundation. for more infos http://www.weltethos.de/index-en.php

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hofelina · « **Reply #8 on:** February 26, 2013, 06:38:59 PM »

I spelled Kueng because it is Ã¼, which is equivalent to ue for KÃ¼ng.

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hubag bohol · « **Reply #9 on:** February 26, 2013, 09:01:40 PM »

Hans Kung: Why Am I Staying in the Church?

Hmm, kanus-a kaha ang Hans Kung: Why Did I Criticize Pope Benedict?

He doesn't have to, he's a theologian. His job is to seek the truth for us. Mao bitaw bisan ge criticized niya ang Pope imbitado gehapon siya one on one with the pope. Ratzinger is also a theologian so he understand the position of Hans Kung. Kung kita pa to ni criticize, aw, morag di man ta authority on the subject. Basin ma kick out ta nga di ma spelling hehehe

Ah, I see. As a theologian, he has the right--or privilege--to be selective about which aspects of his behavior he feels like explaining. Cool.

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #10 on:** February 26, 2013, 10:11:48 PM »

He doesn't have to, he's a theologian. His job is to seek the truth for us. Mao bitaw bisan ge criticized niya ang Pope imbitado gehapon siya one on one with the pope. Ratzinger is also a theologian so he understand the position of Hans Kung. Kung kita pa to ni criticize, aw, morag di man ta authority on the subject. Basin ma kick out ta nga di ma spelling hehehe

That may be so, him (Kung) being a theologian and all. But, in my honest opinion lang, there comes a time when we also must accept correction. His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI is our Holy Father, the Bishop of Rome, and one who sits on the Chair of Peter. The living and breathing Vicar of Jesus Christ our Lord. The Representative of God on Earth, by whom had received Divine Authority through the Apostolic Succession. And as one who sits on the Chair of Peter is Infallible in dispensing theological as well as moral truth.

As the old saying goes, "Rome has spoken, the matter is closed."

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #11 on:** February 26, 2013, 10:28:51 PM »

Hans Kung is a formidable theologian and for the longest time, since Vatican II, has been a respectable resource of many students of theology. Wa ta kahibaw basin naa ni siyay kslihotgot nganong wa mahimong obispo kay ang iyang contemporary nga si Ratzinger nahimo mang obispo... eventually a cardinal, then a pope, hehehe

If I may forward my assumption, his inability to take charge further than a diocesan priest, not as a bishop, or a cardinal, is because of his liberal and heretical teachings towards the Roman Catholic Church. This is the very reason why he was not permitted to teach Theology because he intertwines his own personal agenda and biases. He was removed from teaching theology because of his heretical views.

Let us go back and define the two forms of heresy, shall we?

The Catechism of the Catholic Church defines these three sins against the faith in this way:

2089

Incredulity is the neglect of revealed truth or the willful refusal to assent to it.

Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same;

apotasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith;

schism is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him." [Code of Canon Law c.751]

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #12 on:** February 26, 2013, 10:32:38 PM »

The Church's moral theology has always distinguished between objective or material sin and formal sin. The person who holds something contrary to the Catholic faith is materially a heretic. They possess the matter of heresy, theological error.

This theological distinction remains true, though in keeping with the pastoral charity of the Council today we use the term heretic only to describe those who willingly embrace what they know to be contrary to revealed truth. Such persons are formally (in their conscience before God) guilty of heresy. Thus, the person who is objectively in heresy is not formally guilty of heresy if 1) their ignorance of the truth is due to their upbringing in a particular religious tradition (to which they may even be scrupulously faithful), and 2) they are not morally responsible for their ignorance of the truth. This is the principle of invincible ignorance, which Catholic theology has always recognized as excusing before God.

By that definition, it is unfortunate to know that our dear brother, Fr. Kung, is guilty of heresy.

Reference:
1. Catechism of the Holy Roman Catholic Church
2. EWTN

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #13 on:** February 27, 2013, 04:15:03 AM »

Let us examine the words of His Holiness Pope Leo XIII regarding this issue of heretics:

From the encyclical on "Unity of the Church", by Pope Leo XIII in 1896, "Our Lord Jesus Christ, when in His Gospel He testifies that those who not are with Him are His enemies, does not designate any special form of heresy, but declares that all heretics who are not with Him and do not gather with Him, scatter His flock and are His adversaries: He that is not with Me is against Me, and he that gathereth not with Me scattereth" (S. Cyprianus, Ep. lxix., ad Magnum, n. I)

"There can be nothing more dangerous than those heretics who admit nearly the whole cycle of doctrine, and yet by one word, as with a drop of poison, infect the real and simple faith taught by our Lord and handed down by Apostolic tradition" Encyclical on Unity of the Church by Pope Leo XIII, 1896

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #14 on:** February 27, 2013, 04:25:41 AM »

Professor Hans Kueng is a professor collegeau of now Pope Benedict. He is a harsh critic of the catholic (absolutism)authoritatian system. This has irritated the late blessed Pope John II, he was not allowed to teach Theology and was even warned to be excommunicated. As Pope Benedict took over, Kueng was happy to be invited as personal friend but nothing is said about his personal criticism of the church. Professor Kueng started "Weltethos" foundation. for more infos http://www.weltethos.de/index-en.php

In my honest opinion, Fr. Kung has been given the grace of forgiveness and tolerance by Blessed Pope John Paul II, considering how Blessed Pope John Paul II did not excommunicate him for his heretical opinions. He was warned and corrected many times. This man challenges the Authority of two popes and the Authority of the Chair of Peter. I do pray that Fr. Kung relents and repents of this sin of heresy before his passing. It is a grave sin he has committed. And how he indirectly and directly propagates. May God have mercy on his soul.

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #15 on:** February 27, 2013, 04:45:19 AM »

His Holiness Pope Pius X warned all of us about this in his Encyclical on the Doctrine of the Modernists , 1907. Fr. Kung is the very thesis of his example of men in the priesthood who have been corrupted by modernist theology.

"We allude, Venerable Brethren, to many who belong to the Catholic laity, and, what is much more sad, to the ranks of the priesthood itself, who, animated by a false zeal for the Church, lacking the solid safeguards of philosophy and theology, nay more, thoroughly imbued with the poisonous doctrines taught by the enemies of the Church, and lost to all sense of modesty, put themselves forward as reformers of the Church; and, forming more boldly into line of attack, assail all that is most sacred in the work of Christ, not sparing even the Person of the Divine Redeemer, whom, with sacrilegious audacity, they degrade to the condition of a simple and ordinary man."

Encyclical "On the Doctrine of the Modernists" by Pope Pius X, SEPTEMBER 8, 1907

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chicogon · « **Reply #16 on:** February 27, 2013, 08:50:53 AM »

What theological teachings of Hans Kung, if I may ask, make him a heretic? Is it because he questions the politics and sometimes the actions of a pope in matters of what? Theological teaching? Or adminitrative decisions-making that has nothing to do with faith and morals? Or are we passing a general judgment of heresy because we have nothing else to say? If he, Hans Kung, is a heretic, why didn't the Church - besides asking him to recant (of course they wanted him to recant because he is the respectable Kung of Vatican II fame!) make that official?!! Hmmmm, and the Mother Church is the authority (not any Pedro or Juan or Bran Lucino who may be a firm Catholic defender, LoL). Why? Because the Church knows what it is doing! They just can't fire this man. Again, why? Because he is a redpectable in this field and even though he is some kind of enemical to the Church today, he is a seeker of the truth (a job of a scholarly theologian... not a doctor or yanong priest or just anybody). So, before we judge him... let the Church make the judgment first. After all, you kept insisting the Church is the keeper of the key Christ gave to Peter. Otherwise, you are the ones who sound heretical to me, bwahahaha. Lupig pa man ninyo ang Simbahan. Dako kaayo ang simbahan (the intricacies of the inner sanctum is beyond me!) di na lang ko
mag alig2x ug himo ug comment when I'm too small for the job hah! Aw kung comment lang, pwede ra god. But please don't get tempted to criticize sounding like your the next pope or one from the dead past. Makal lang... hehehe

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chicogon · « **Reply #17 on:** February 27, 2013, 09:04:51 AM »

Ato ning e translate nga down-to-earth: kung sa Ratzinger (Pope Benedict XVI) pay pasultion, "Ayaw mog palag aning Hans kay taga Calceta Street ni... karaang bugoy sa Germany!" Bwahahaha

Hans Kung: Hala, palag diha Ratzinger... maayo pa mo retire na lang ka. Basin manggawas ning Vatican Leaks sa mga batan-on patas Turingen. Basin mapugos kog pagawas aning mga dokumento. Duna na raba koy digicam hinimo da atong usa pa ka silingang kina Germanan, si Carl Zeiss, bwahahaha!

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chicogon · « **Reply #18 on:** February 27, 2013, 09:47:17 AM »

Ah, I see. As a theologian, he has the right--or privilege--to be selective about which aspects of his behavior he feels like explaining. Cool.

What selective behavior? Wa ko kadabot. I thought he was prophetic and courageous - unlike many of us - to a point, point of risking excommunication, by saying all the things he said about the Church and the administration of the Papacy or Vatican. Hit or miss probably his style but there are so much truth to them, which we have no evidence or proof but obvoius nonetheless... that if we're familiar with the politics of the Church or have been listening to recent news re: Vatican Scandals, etc. Even from the ranks of Philippine Bishops you hear unpleasant quips "if you think Philippine churches are full of politics and scandal... wait til you get to the highest level, the Vatican!" LoL. Hand-grenade nga off the record

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islander · « **Reply #19 on:** February 27, 2013, 09:49:27 AM »

aguy! simbako palayo. bug-at na kaayo ning dapita da...

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chicogon · « **Reply #20 on:** February 27, 2013, 09:59:05 AM »

Ah, I see. As a theologian, he has the right--or privilege--to be selective about which aspects of his behavior he feels like explaining. Cool.

Yes, as a theologian and a member of the Cathlic Theology Forum duna siyay privilege just as respectable as the others. Duna say daghang mga sipok ug ulo like the Liberation Theologians. But once you're in (di basta-basta and probably by invitation only (another politics in Church) you become or are considered authority on the subject, orthodox or questionable. Of course, there's the Church' Magisterium (teaching authority) to monitor these theologians. Either they give an imprimatur or nihil obstat or they ask some to recant if the teaching or a certain article the teaching magisterium deem questionable. Either that writer is called to defend one's theology or he/she receives a sanction immediately or whatever. But for what they say the Church listens as well as the other members of the forum with utmost respect. After all, their reputation and sometimes their membership in the Church is at stake. Di lalim trabaho aning mga theologians. They are usually matters of faith and morals. Usang sipyat, a difference in eternity!!! Toinks!!!

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islander · « **Reply #21 on:** February 27, 2013, 10:03:27 AM »

there's a long list of condemned and executed heretics in church history. one became a saint--joan of arc, she who led men to battle and secured the crown for the french king but who was burned at the stake at the age of 19 anyway.

i believe the church is more enlightened now and is no longer quick at condemning people as heretics as in the old days when the undercurrents were actually politics and temporal power.

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islander · « **Reply #22 on:** February 27, 2013, 10:08:07 AM »

Yes, as a theologian and a member of the Cathlic Theology Forum duna siyay privilege just as respectable as the others. Duna say daghang mga sipok ug ulo like the Liberation Theologians. But once you're in (di basta-basta and probably by invitation only (another politics in Church) you become or are considered authority on the subject, orthodox or questionable. Of course, there's the Church' Magisterium (teaching authority) to monitor these theologians. Either they give an imprimatur or nihil obstat or they ask some to recant if the teaching or a certain article the teaching magisterium deem questionable. Either that writer is called to defend one's theology or he/she receives a sanction immediately or whatever. But for what they say the Church listens as well as the other members of the forum with utmost respect. After all, their reputation and sometimes their membership in the Church is at stake. Di lalim trabaho aning mga theologians. They are usually matters of faith and morals. Usang sipyat, a difference in eternity!!! Toinks!!!

unimaginable. makahahadlok. kun pari pa ko, adto na lang tingali ko sa pongkay mag-parish priest nungka adto ko i-assign sa magisterium nga maglurat lang ko kanunay.

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chicogon · « **Reply #23 on:** February 27, 2013, 10:08:25 AM »

Professor Hans Kueng is a professor collegeau of now Pope Benedict. He is a harsh critic of the catholic (absolutism)authoritatian system. This has irritated the late blessed Pope John II, he was not allowed to teach Theology and was even warned to be excommunicated. As Pope Benedict took over, Kueng was happy to be invited as personal friend but nothing is said about his personal criticism of the church. Professor Kueng started "Weltethos" foundation. for more infos http://www.weltethos.de/index-en.php

I think the Church needs one like him. Vatican II in the mid 60's redefined the Church as the People of God - 99.9% laity - but look who's running the lives of the 99.9%? the 1%. That's another hand-grenade courtesy of a respectable monsignor/teacher from my Archdiocese hahahaha!

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chicogon · « **Reply #24 on:** February 27, 2013, 10:16:30 AM »

unimaginable. makahahadlok. kun pari pa ko, adto na lang tingali ko sa pongkay mag-parish priest nungka adto ko i-assign sa magisterium nga maglurat lang ko kanunay.

Hahahaha. Tinuod jud. Bahalag bright pa ko, they can have the job. Ari na lang ko uban ni Tampolano ug Tampolano kay naa pay room for mortal men. But I love listening when they come up with stuff... because I used to come up with stuff also at different stage in my life. In fact, as a sinner like everybody else, I also come up with heretical and questioning thoughts that nobody will ever get to hear. That's the provilege of being not part of the theological forum bwahahaha. Our friend Alloysius Cartagenas in now one of them and he gets criticized to the max even for a beautiful article he wrote defending Pope Benedict XVI's resignation, bwahahaha. And this guy is one I have my highest respect and whose opinion I always seek...

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islander · « **Reply #25 on:** February 27, 2013, 10:24:01 AM »

I think the Church needs one like him. Vatican II in the mid 60's redefined the Church as the People of God - 99.9% laity - but look who's running the lives of the 99.9%? the 1%. That's another hand-grenade courtesy of a respectable monsignor/teacher from my Archdiocese hahahaha!

just the same, i will trust that 1%, fr chic. that small percentage is trained for things spiritual while the bigger percentage is in the rat race.

reassuringly, that hand grenade is not from a suicide bomber but from a miner who's out to seek the gold nugget of additional verities amid current realities.

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islander · « **Reply #26 on:** February 27, 2013, 10:29:08 AM »

Hahahaha. Tinuod jud. Bahalag bright pa ko, they can have the job. Ari na lang ko uban ni Tampolano ug Tampolano kay naa pay room for mortal men. But I love listening when they come up with stuff... because I used to come up with stuff also at different stage in my life. In fact, as a sinner like everybody else, I also come up with heretical and questioning thoughts that nobody will ever get to hear. That's the provilege of being not part of the theological forum bwahahaha. Our friend Alloysius Cartagenas in now one of them and he gets criticized to the max even for a beautiful article he wrote defending Pope Benedict XVI's resignation, bwahahaha. And this guy is one I have my highest respect and whose opinion I always seek...

aaahhh, questioning minds make for the church's dynamism. aggiornamento!

(fr aloy may turn out to be right about his attitude and reasons about the cebu archdiocese in the recent past... ssshhh... i'm still hoping he's wrong, huhuhu.)

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islander · « **Reply #27 on:** February 27, 2013, 10:33:07 AM »

would-have-been a heretic, but not quite...

Pierre Teilhard de Chardin SJ

Pierre Teilhard de Chardin SJ (French; May 1, 1881 â€“ April 10, 1955) was a French philosopher and Jesuit priest who trained as a paleontologist and geologist and took part in the discovery of Peking Man and Piltdown Man.

-wikipedia

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chicogon · « **Reply #28 on:** February 27, 2013, 10:33:13 AM »

If I may forward my assumption, his inability to take charge further than a diocesan priest, not as a bishop, or a cardinal, is because of his liberal and heretical teachings towards the Roman Catholic Church. This is the very reason why he was not permitted to teach Theology because he intertwines his own personal agenda and biases. He was removed from teaching theology because of his heretical views.

Let us go back and define the two forms of heresy, shall we?

The Catechism of the Catholic Church defines these three sins against the faith in this way:

2089

Incredulity is the neglect of revealed truth or the willful refusal to assent to it.

Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same;

apotasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith;

schism is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him." [Code of Canon Law c.751]

I love (not respect) how you defend your Holy Father and Catholic Faith! Like I told you before you are a good Catholic defender just like many of them back home roaming around town and spitting fire and brimstone teaching usually where Jose Rizal is immortalized LoL. But that's what you are, a simple Catholic defender, my dear friend. As far as Catholic theologies are concerned I will give my ears to "registered" (hehehe) Catholic theologians who have studied and taught (many other theologians) and put in the time over the years as a respectable authority on the subject matter. As an orthodox practicioner of the faith I closely watch the Church Magisterium has to say on all of these. If they are not sure either, then I probably will leave it that way, too. Or like Ms Isles said... maybe they have taken a more compassionate and more forgiving approach in these modern age. Sa flat pa bitaw ang kalibutan nasayop man sad ang Simbahan. Sa dihay nisinggit nga lingin ang kalibutan, what did they to him? Toinks! Are you still going to invoke Papal Infallibility?!! LoL

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chicogon · « **Reply #29 on:** February 27, 2013, 10:35:21 AM »

just the same, i will trust that 1%, fr chic. that small percentage is trained for things spiritual while the bigger percentage is in the rat race.

reassuringly, that hand grenade is not from a suicide bomber but from a miner who's out to seek the gold nugget of additional verities amid current realities.

I'm with you on this.

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chicogon · « **Reply #30 on:** February 27, 2013, 10:43:11 AM »

Galileo! Galileo! Galileo figaro magnifico... oooh!

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chicogon · « **Reply #31 on:** February 27, 2013, 10:47:04 AM »

would-have-been a heretic, but not quite...

Pierre Teilhard de Chardin SJ

Pierre Teilhard de Chardin SJ (French; May 1, 1881 â€“ April 10, 1955) was a French philosopher and Jesuit priest who trained as a paleontologist and geologist and took part in the discovery of Peking Man and Piltdown Man.

-wikipedia

I studied Fr Teilhard de Chardim too at Tagaytay.... wasn't he excommunicated too for teaching something the Church didn't understand at that time? I thought he was vindicated later on...

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islander · « **Reply #32 on:** February 27, 2013, 10:57:19 AM »

Galileo! Galileo! Galileo figaro magnifico... oooh!

Galileo Galilei trial, 1633

And yet it moves.
-Galileo supposedly uttered this in support of his belief that the earth moved around the sun, a belief that was considered heretical at the time, thus the trial.

Galileo's recantation:

I, Galileo, son of the late Vincenzo Galilei, Florentine, aged seventy years, arraigned personally before this tribunal, and kneeling before you, Most Eminent and Reverend Lord Cardinals, Inquisitors-General against heretical depravity throughout the entire Christian commonwealth...

...I have been pronounced by the Holy Office to be vehemently suspected of heresy, that is to say, of having held and believed that the Sun is the center of the world and immovable, and that the earth is not the center and moves...

(full text of Galileo's recantation at http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/galileo/recantation.html)

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islander · « **Reply #33 on:** February 27, 2013, 11:03:32 AM »

I studied Fr Teilhard de Chardim too at Tagaytay.... wasn't he excommunicated too for teaching something the Church didn't understand at that time? I thought he was vindicated later on...

another guy ahead of his time. patuga kog basa sa iyang works in college, nahagbong hinoon kog biology kay priority nako iyang books and not my lessons. karon, wa na gyod koy mahinumduman unsa tong akong gipangbasa.

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islander · « **Reply #34 on:** February 27, 2013, 11:07:10 AM »

would-have-been a heretic, but not quite...

Pierre Teilhard de Chardin SJ

Pierre Teilhard de Chardin SJ (French; May 1, 1881 â€“ April 10, 1955) was a French philosopher and Jesuit priest who trained as a paleontologist and geologist and took part in the discovery of Peking Man and Piltdown Man.

-wikipedia

I studied Fr Teilhard de Chardim too at Tagaytay.... wasn't he excommunicated too for teaching something the Church didn't understand at that time? I thought he was vindicated later on...

more than vindicated...

The 1950 encyclical Humani generis condemned several of Teilhard's opinions, while leaving other questions open. However, some of Teilhard's views became influential in the reforms of the Second Vatican Council. More recently, Pope John Paul II indicated a positive attitude towards some of Teilhard's ideas. In 2009, Pope Benedict XVI mentioned Teilhard's idea of the universe as a "living host". (wikipedia)

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chicogon · « **Reply #35 on:** February 27, 2013, 11:12:26 AM »

Let me share with you a (let's say) sad or unfortunate reality. I said this at a homily at a funeral Mass, for my mom, in 2006. Remember 2006, bag-o pa na Santo Papa si Pope Benedict XVI ug bag-o papod na President si Bush (2nd term I think). I told my family it doesn' matter kung niuli pako atong panahona as Pope Benedict or President Bush. To you, nga nakaila nako - family, cuzins, silingan - I'm simply Roel. And for true that's how they see me and even call me even after 25 years of priesthood.

Truth is, for the longest time we have put priests and bishops and even more so the Pope on a pedestal - for reasons Biblical and traditional. Which is fine. We do that for any authority anyway (usahay sa ubang mga sikat na tawo). But among bishops and Cardinals or theologians who are contemporaries - like Ratzinger and Hand - you are just one of the boys, even if you hold the highest honor.

Illustration:

When Archbishop Onie Gordoncillo was bishop of Bohol in the late 70s up to 1986, bisan siya buotan nga pagka tawo ug pagka obispo and bisan siya maoy Prince of the Church of Bohol (Successor of Peter like the Bishop of Rome), daghang mga pari nga way respeto niya, not because he wasnt a good bishop... but because he was their underclassman sa nag skul pa sila sa UST. In fact, gamatot kuno si Bishop Onie and naive maoy ilang sugo-sugoog palit ug beer ug anejo sa gawas sa UST compound. Bwahahaha!

Nangapari tuod silang tanan and Fr Onie became a bishop... But to these priests si Onie lang gehapon siya maski Prince of the Church pa siya.

In the same fashion, Ratzinger bisan Pope Brnedict pa siya... will always be Ratzinger to his friends, contemporary and fellow faculty furing his teaching days. They know him too much. LoL

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chicogon · « **Reply #36 on:** February 27, 2013, 11:18:57 AM »

Cest la vie! And Pope Benedict knows that bwahahaha.

Remember, Jesus too who was God was human in everything, except sin (Gaudium et Spes No. 22)

And the Bible says, "... and they treat him as such."

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chicogon · « **Reply #37 on:** February 27, 2013, 11:24:22 AM »

another guy ahead of his time. patuga kog basa sa iyang works in college, nahagbong hinoon kog biology kay priority nako iyang books and not my lessons. karon, wa na gyod koy mahinumduman unsa tong akong gipangbasa.

Same here also... I don't remember anything about Pierre T de Chardin. Blame old age for that and retention problem hehehe

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chicogon · « **Reply #38 on:** February 27, 2013, 11:38:14 AM »

aaahhh, questioning minds make for the church's dynamism. aggiornamento!

(fr aloy may turn out to be right about his attitude and reasons about the cebu archdiocese in the recent past... ssshhh... i'm still hoping he's wrong, huhuhu.)

In 100 years we will know. That's equivalent to 1 year for the Catholic Church. For arguing a Cardinal is as good as "condenado." It doesn't matter how good you are or sincere or how many STDs you have under your belt. Condenado is condenado! What direction do you go but find the exit... which he did. Another sad story for a local church.

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chicogon · « **Reply #39 on:** February 27, 2013, 11:58:10 AM »

If my will is to be done here (Bayoulandia of the Creoles) is where I would love to do my exit to kinabuhing dayon (it has been willed but Thy will be done)

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islander · « **Reply #40 on:** February 27, 2013, 12:05:03 PM »

If my will is to be done here (Bayoulandia of the Creoles) is where I would love to do my exit to kinabuhing dayon (it has been willed but Thy will be done)

salamat nga dili in your own good time but in HIS. so many songs still need to be sung...

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islander · « **Reply #41 on:** February 27, 2013, 12:06:27 PM »

In 100 years we will know. That's equivalent to 1 year for the Catholic Church. For arguing a Cardinal is as good as "condenado." It doesn't matter how good you are or sincere or how many STDs you have under your belt. Condenado is condenado! What direction do you go but find the exit... which he did. Another sad story for a local church.

hahay, authority is authority gyod diay, bisan asa. growing up, condemned ko nga ako ray mosukol sa among papa. (sa amo pa nga hasta permanent seating arrangement sa dining table naa poy rank... the younger you are in the family, the farther is your seat from the parents.) kay ako ra lagiy mosukol, ang mga maguwang moduko lang kun kasab-an pero ako nga manghod motibad gyod, aw, daghan kog labod. but everyone knows nga ako ang apple of the eye ni father dear. giing-ana pa unta si fr aloy, the cebu archdiocese wouldn't have suffered such a loss...

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chicogon · « **Reply #42 on:** February 27, 2013, 12:12:24 PM »

hahay, authority is authority gyod diay, bisan asa. growing up, condemned ko nga ako ray mosukol sa among papa. (sa amo pa nga hasta permanent seating arrangement sa dining table naa poy rank... the younger you are in the family, the farther is your seat from the parents.) kay ako ra lagiy mosukol, ang mga maguwang moduko lang kun kasab-an pero ako nga manghod motibad gyod, aw, daghan kog labod. but everyone knows nga ako ang apple of the eye ni father dear. giing-ana pa unta si fr aloy, the cebu archdiocese wouldn't have suffered such a loss...

Ayo gani kay pag exit well-connected na siya with Jesuit's Leuven University where he received a summa in theology. Wew! Considered an authority na god in theology. What a blessing in disguise... instead of being stuck in the system kung na obispo pa! Hehehe

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #43 on:** February 27, 2013, 02:11:31 PM »

I love (not respect) how you defend your Holy Father and Catholic Faith! Like I told you before you are a good Catholic defender just like many of them back home roaming around town and spitting fire and brimstone teaching usually where Jose Rizal is immortalized LoL. But that's what you are, a simple Catholic defender, my dear friend. As far as Catholic theologies are concerned I will give my ears to "registered" (hehehe) Catholic theologians who have studied and taught (many other theologians) and put in the time over the years as a respectable authority on the subject matter. As an orthodox practicioner of the faith I closely watch the Church Magisterium has to say on all of these. If they are not sure either, then I probably will leave it that way, too. Or like Ms Isles said... maybe they have taken a more compassionate and more forgiving approach in these modern age. Sa flat pa bitaw ang kalibutan nasayop man sad ang Simbahan. Sa dihay nisinggit nga lingin ang kalibutan, what did they to him? Toinks! Are you still going to invoke Papal Infallibility?!! LoL

Yes, I am actually fond of His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI, I also have read into his life and his role as Prefect of the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith. He was personally chosen by Blessed Pope John Paul II. What is also interesting to know that His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI, while performing his role as Prefect of the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith, regularly corrected theologians who were committing heresy, straying from official teaching. He was renowned as the "enforcer of Truth".

Blessed Pope John Paul II was the one who personally had removed Hans Kung from his role as professor of theology. Incidentally, it was Hans Kung who repudiated Blessed Pope John Paul calling his inferiority in theology.

Now come on. A priest who dares to say he has greater theological clout than the Bishop of Rome, The Head of The Universal Catholic Church, the Successor of Peter. The Pope of the One, Holy, Roman Catholic Church is the Vicar of Christ. God's Personal Representative.

I actually do believe in Papal Infallibility. Christ our Lord gave the keys of Heaven to Peter, and to all those who sit on the Chair of Peter.

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islander · « **Reply #44 on:** February 27, 2013, 02:18:58 PM »

all in the name of intellectual discourse, lorenz, which is good for the church. but authority and unity are something else, as we all know. it takes time for a seed of an idea to bear fruit, if ever it does at all, but heresy it is not. thankfully, we're in an age when burning at the stake is no longer the way to repudiate new ideas about faith and our relationship with our god.

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #45 on:** February 27, 2013, 02:30:56 PM »

What theological teachings of Hans Kung, if I may ask, make him a heretic? Is it because he questions the politics and sometimes the actions of a pope in matters of what? Theological teaching? Or adminitrative decisions-making that has nothing to do with faith and morals? Or are we passing a general judgment of heresy because we have nothing else to say? If he, Hans Kung, is a heretic, why didn't the Church - besides asking him to recant (of course they wanted him to recant because he is the respectable Kung of Vatican II fame!) make that official?!! Hmmmm, and the Mother Church is the authority (not any Pedro or Juan or Bran Lucino who may be a firm Catholic defender, LoL). Why? Because the Church knows what it is doing! They just can't fire this man. Again, why? Because he is a redpectable in this field and even though he is some kind of enemical to the Church today, he is a seeker of the truth (a job of a scholarly theologian... not a doctor or yanong priest or just anybody). So, before we judge him... let the Church make the judgment first. After all, you kept insisting the Church is the keeper of the key Christ gave to Peter. Otherwise, you are the ones who sound heretical to me, bwahahaha. Lupig pa man ninyo ang Simbahan. Dako kaayo ang simbahan (the intricacies of the inner sanctum is beyond me!) di na lang ko
mag alig2x ug himo ug comment when I'm too small for the job hah! Aw kung comment lang, pwede ra god. But please don't get tempted to criticize sounding like your the next pope or one from the dead past. Makal lang... hehehe

Fr. Roel,

I did not once claim to be a theologian, so , please don't say that I claim to be a theologian. I do , however, read the Papal Encyclicals as well as study the Catechism on regular basis to see and understand / attain some comprehension on doctrine of the Holy Magesterium. In regards to the question of Kung's heresy, it is not my judgement, actually, but it is something that has been understood and observed by the clergy and by lay people of the Roman Catholic Church.

Let us define the word heresy, shall we? The Catechism of the Catholic Church states, "Incredulity is the neglect of revealed truth or the willful refusal to assent to it. Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and Catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him" (CCC 2089).

To commit heresy, one must refuse to be corrected. A person who is ready to be corrected or who is unaware that what he has been saying is against Church teaching is not a heretic.

A person must be baptized to commit heresy. This means that movements that have split off from or been influenced by Christianity, but that do not practice baptism (or do not practice valid baptism), are not heresies, but separate religions. Examples include Muslims, who do not practice baptism, and Jehovahâ€™s Witnesses, who do not practice valid baptism.

Finally, the doubt or denial involved in heresy must concern a matter that has been revealed by God and solemnly defined by the Church (for example, the Trinity, the Incarnation, the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, the sacrifice of the Mass, the popeâ€™s infallibility, or the Immaculate Conception and Assumption of Mary).

It is important to distinguish heresy from schism and apostasy. In schism, one separates from the Catholic Church without repudiating a defined doctrine. An example of a contemporary schism is the Society of St. Pius Xâ€”the "Lefebvrists" or followers of the late Archbishop Marcel Lefebvreâ€”who separated from the Church in the late 1980s, but who have not denied Catholic doctrines. In apostasy, one totally repudiates the Christian faith and no longer even claims to be a Christian.

Now, back to Hans Kung. What are some of the things that he has done or preached to render him being labeled as a heretic? For one, he has challenged the Authority of the Roman Pontiff, in particular, challenging Papal Infallibility. His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI has taken the position of defending institutional continuity. The Infallibility of the Roman Pontiff in terms of Moral and Theological Truth Ex-Cathedra is clearly established as defined by The Catechism.

Respectfully,
Dr. Lorenzo L.

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hubag bohol · « **Reply #46 on:** February 27, 2013, 11:22:23 PM »

Kung ang Simbahan siging gisaway ni Hans
Angay ba kahang ato siyang biraHans?
Mapasaylo ba kaha ta ni Hans Kung
Iyang ulo sa bongbong atong ipaKung?

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chicogon · « **Reply #47 on:** February 28, 2013, 12:28:27 AM »

Kung ang Simbahan siging gisaway ni Hans
Angay ba kahang ato siyang biraHans?
Mapasaylo ba kaha ta ni Hans Kung
Iyang ulo sa bongbong atong ipaKung?

Bwahahaha! Ayaw sa bongbong ipa-KUNG, sa kurus lang aron mahidama sa Ginoo ug mahimong blessed as in the Beatitude: "BulaHANS ang mga ge persecute, the Kingdom of God is theirs!"

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chicogon · « **Reply #48 on:** February 28, 2013, 01:01:12 AM »

Dear Lorenz,

I never say you're a theologian and even if you quote old and sometimes irrelevant encyclicals you will never become a legitimate theologian. My 4 years of theology, my ordination to the priesthood and my 27 years as a priest do not make me one either. But my papers or faculties say I can teach and proclaim God's Word and the good news to the flock assigned to me or when I get to dispense the mysteries of our faith at my disposal. But I will never judge people - not by quoting encyclicals, Church pronouncements, books or what-have-you - just because they said or did something that does not agree with our view or belief. Like our Lord, I don't even judge criminals or killers as persons doomed to hell. That is not my job (that's God). In fact, Jesus says in the gospels, "my actions are my judge." And with this I just stay mum and quite... their actions will be their judge and leave it at that. Now, you said "damnable heresy!" Really? You mean you really know what God is going to do for Hans Kung? Since when did you get a privileged access to God's will? I know the Mother Church was given the key... but not just anyone from Chicago or New Orlesns or Tsina; not even to the Queen of Sheba (who comes from the East to condemn the present generation accdg to Jesus) nor to the Queen of Memeng who is a respectable TB member.

I know you are very respectful and a very respectable person, that's why I also sought your opinion many a times. But as an elder or older brother, I will always show my fraternal affection and call it, inigsoong tambag... never judge nobody or anything by what you hear and what you say (refrain/discipline is the word). Leave that to their actions (as their judge) or to the experts. They are the authority. Kita? We're cslled the FAITHFUL and as the word denotes ours is to imitate the heart of Christ who is meek and humble, compassionate and forgiving and has a heart for erring and sinners. A doctor like you, He came for the sick, not the righteous. Let's be that way... and we're not far from the Kingdom. He assures.

"Unless you learn how to forgive... from the heart..."

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chicogon · « **Reply #49 on:** February 28, 2013, 01:37:29 AM »

Lorenz:

Please answer my question on Papal Infallibilty when view of the world was still flat and a legitimate expert on the subject matter corrected the idea? 2013 naman karon and modernity taught us that the earth is round after all. Infallible man kaha ang Santo Papa? Nganong nanghilabot toinks!

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #50 on:** February 28, 2013, 05:49:09 AM »

Lorenz:

Please answer my question on Papal Infallibilty when view of the world was still flat and a legitimate expert on the subject matter corrected the idea? 2013 naman karon and modernity taught us that the earth is round after all. Infallible man kaha ang Santo Papa? Nganong nanghilabot toinks!

Fr. Roel,

There have been many developments and changes that have occured since the Counter-Reformation of the 16th century and now. In regards to the issue of the world being flat, that was actually an erroneous thought that was widely accepted by many cartographers, physicians, as well as generals during the mideival period. In fact, Cristopher Columbus , otherwise known as Cristobal Colombo, disproved that false theory that the world was flat. It was generally accepted by many cartographers, and men of science during the day. When he discovered the new world in 1492, it was actually the Church who cooperated with the Kingdom of Spain and Portugal in the conquest, colonization and christianization of the new world.

The Philippines' discovery and colonization, christianization was a result of that discovery and support by the Audencia.

There were many archaic thoughts that have been disproved. In medicine for example, before the onset of modern medicine, the doctors of the ancient days and medieval period believed that the body's health depended on the balance of the humors of the body. They believed that disease manifested when there was an imbalance of the body's humors (liquids). This is why they bled people regularly. But that was corrected.

Papa Infallability Ex Catherda, in my humble opinion, only revolves on issues of Faith and Morals. Not so in regards to science or things of empirical, axiologic developments.

I think it was recently where Pope John Paul II formally apologized for the Church's actions in the past and exhonorated the name of Gallileo.

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hubag bohol · « **Reply #51 on:** February 28, 2013, 09:07:51 AM »

Hmm, sa dagan niining maong lambo kahinumdom man lang ta sa lantugi diri sa TB kabahin ni anhing Angelo Reyes...

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islander · « **Reply #52 on:** February 28, 2013, 10:32:16 AM »

Hmm, sa dagan niining maong lambo kahinumdom man lang ta sa lantugi diri sa TB kabahin ni anhing Angelo Reyes...

i missed this, or have simply forgotten how it went...

tell me, was there some betting on whether he went to heaven or hell?

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islander · « **Reply #53 on:** February 28, 2013, 10:37:19 AM »

hehe, thanks fr chic. i believe i have just been conferred the title of "queen of sheba"?

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chicogon · « **Reply #54 on:** February 28, 2013, 10:46:41 AM »

hehe, thanks fr chic. i believe i have just been conferred the title of "queen of sheba"?

Correction: Queen of Memeng

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chicogon · « **Reply #55 on:** February 28, 2013, 10:51:04 AM »

Personally, I think it's cool that somebody's questioning on our behalf. I have a questioning mind myself but I have no microphone nga makaabot sa Vatican or Holy Mother Church. Tagling siguro ning akong tingog, iro may mo towaw kung mo protesta ko.

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chicogon · « **Reply #56 on:** February 28, 2013, 10:52:42 AM »

At least dili akoy ma excommunicate even if at times I think along the same line of thought

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islander · « **Reply #57 on:** February 28, 2013, 11:25:44 AM »

Correction: Queen of Memeng

aw, hehe. nagbasin-basin ba lang...

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islander · « **Reply #58 on:** February 28, 2013, 11:28:25 AM »

Personally, I think it's cool that somebody's questioning on our behalf. I have a questioning mind myself but I have no microphone nga makaabot sa Vatican or Holy Mother Church. Tagling siguro ning akong tingog, iro may mo towaw kung mo protesta ko.

sure nga mag-una gyod si imong booboy coorsu ug tubag.

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