Author Topic: How Did Roman Empire Deteriorated And Totally Collapsed? (Read 20555 times)

Datu Dagohoy · « **on:** March 21, 2009, 05:35:36 PM »

Was it collapsed because of single German traitor ?

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #1 on:** March 21, 2009, 09:13:22 PM »

No.

The Roman Empire collapsed due to multifactorial causes:

1. A corrupt political system that did not operate properly as compared to the Age of Augustus, Tiberius, Hadrian, Trajan, Diocletian and other Great Emperors.

2. Over-taxation of the Empire. Overtaxation lead to the rise of sentiments, yet at the same time, Taxation was necessary in order to maintain the day-to-day operation of the massive corporate venture that was the 'Roman Empire'.

3. Continuous warefare. Rome did not experience peace for more than 50 years in its days of existence. It warred openly with the Gauls, Germanians, Visigoths, Ostrogoths, Dacians, Thracians, Sassamids, Arabs, Slavs etc. Due to its operations abroad lead to the overstretching of its military and thus necessitating the need to tax the citizenry.

4. Corruption from within.

Rome did not fall due to a mere individual. It was the political, economic and social climate within the Empire and in the City of Rome itself that led to the fall of the Western Roman Empire.

Please not that Rome did not just 'FALL' in one day. The fall of Rome was a gradual process that took years to occur. And even then, only the Western Roman Empire fell. The Eastern Roman Empire, founded by Constantine the Great continued on to live until the 15th century AD. Under a new name: The Byzantine Empire.

Cheers.

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Datu Dagohoy · « **Reply #2 on:** March 22, 2009, 04:59:36 PM »

No.

The Roman Empire collapsed due to multifactorial causes:

1. A corrupt political system that did not operate properly as compared to the Age of Augustus, Tiberius, Hadrian, Trajan, Diocletian and other Great Emperors.

2. Over-taxation of the Empire. Overtaxation lead to the rise of sentiments, yet at the same time, Taxation was necessary in order to maintain the day-to-day operation of the massive corporate venture that was the 'Roman Empire'.

3. Continuous warefare. Rome did not experience peace for more than 50 years in its days of existence. It warred openly with the Gauls, Germanians, Visigoths, Ostrogoths, Dacians, Thracians, Sassamids, Arabs, Slavs etc. Due to its operations abroad lead to the overstretching of its military and thus necessitating the need to tax the citizenry.

4. Corruption from within.

Rome did not fall due to a mere individual. It was the political, economic and social climate within the Empire and in the City of Rome itself that led to the fall of the Western Roman Empire.

Please not that Rome did not just 'FALL' in one day. The fall of Rome was a gradual process that took years to occur. And even then, only the Western Roman Empire fell. The Eastern Roman Empire, founded by Constantine the Great continued on to live until the 15th century AD. Under a new name: The Byzantine Empire.

Cheers.

How about Martin Luther, I thought he was one responsible to weakened and led to collapsed the strongest and powerful Roman Empire.

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ben · « **Reply #3 on:** March 22, 2009, 05:14:09 PM »

How about Martin Luther, I thought he was one responsible to weakened and led to collapsed the strongest and powerful Roman Empire.

Ah, you mean the Holy Roman Empire. That was later than the Classical Roman Empire. Think of it as a medieval version of the European Union.

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windgate · « **Reply #4 on:** March 22, 2009, 05:33:01 PM »

Bai datz. Nagsige ciguro ka ug tan aw anang night of the museum kay nag abot abot na man tanan. hehehe

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Datu Dagohoy · « **Reply #5 on:** March 22, 2009, 05:35:51 PM »

Ah, you mean the Holy Roman Empire. That was later than the Classical Roman Empire. Think of it as a medieval version of the European Union.

you mean to say that there was an Un-Holy Roman Empire, who were those well known personalities involved in that Empire other than Emperor Constantine whom the key to Christianized the entire empire?

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reign beau · « **Reply #6 on:** March 22, 2009, 10:33:28 PM »

Sorry, sa topic starter. Pero, naglibog lagi ko ani nga thread.

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windgate · « **Reply #7 on:** March 22, 2009, 10:40:43 PM »

Sorry, sa topic starter. Pero, naglibog lagi ko ani nga thread.

kahinumdum ka adtong artista sir nga si ako si ikaw? mao na si bay datz or to put it bluntly kana bitawng programa ni joey de leon nga wow mali. pareparehas ra ani. hehehe ...peace bai datz

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #8 on:** March 22, 2009, 10:49:45 PM »

you mean to say that there was an Un-Holy Roman Empire, who were those well known personalities involved in that Empire other than Emperor Constantine whom the key to Christianized the entire empire?

Datu Dagohoy,

The Holy Roman Empire was nothing more than a name that was utilized by the Germano-Frankish peoples that populated the Holy Roman Empire under the banner of Charlemagne.

The reason why the term, 'Holy Roman Empire' was used by the Germano-Franks was to give a sense of religious-political legitimacy to their Imperial Status.

It was not a Roman Empire, in the literary sense, since the City of Rome was not the capital. But it, did, however, gain the blessings and support of the Papacy in Rome; thereby gaining authority and legitimacy.

Roman Catholicism was the Imperial State religion of the Holy Roman Empire. And as a political structure and unit, it did facilitate and augment the spread of Roman Catholicism (Christianity in the sense, considering there was no concept of multidenominations prior to the Protestant Reformation in the 16th century).

What the Roman Empire started, the Holy Roman Empire under the Germano-Franks built upon. It was Europe's version of trying to establish a sense of unified order and absolutism that was common and nostalgic of the epochs under the Classic Roman Empire. The Empire that was ruled under the God-Emperors (The Caesar's)

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reign beau · « **Reply #9 on:** March 22, 2009, 10:51:41 PM »

kahinumdum ka adtong artista sir nga si ako si ikaw? mao na si bay datz or to put it bluntly kana bitawng programa ni joey de leon nga wow mali. pareparehas ra ani. hehehe ...peace bai datz

Sige lang, windgate. Mag basa-basa sa lang ko kay unsaon daghan ko apsonon. Interested lang ko aning Roman Empire kay it ruled over Rome some two thousand years ago. It influenced greatly on culture and western civilization.

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #10 on:** March 22, 2009, 10:56:36 PM »

How about Martin Luther, I thought he was one responsible to weakened and led to collapsed the strongest and powerful Roman Empire.

Datu Dagohoy,

Martin Luther was a Catholic German monk who found inadequacies in the practices of the Roman Catholic Church prior to the Great Reformation. Corruption, selling of forgiveness and the lot was widespread. And his nailing of this Thesis on the Church door signaled the beginning of the Protestant Reformation.

Martin Luther was an intelligent individual, whose mastery in Biblical passages was astute as his observation in Catholic Doctrine. Afterall, Martin Luther himself was a Catholic Monk who seeked merely to reform the Catholic Church.

His actions lead to not only the reformation of the Catholic Church, but to the split between Catholics and Protestants. An interesting and colorful discourse in European history as well as Christian Historiography.

Cheers,
Bran Lorenzo

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #11 on:** March 22, 2009, 11:31:20 PM »

The Fall Of The Roman Empire

Let us discuss this topic, which is rather interesting and sparks my attention, and am also glad that Datu posted this topic thread since it bears great importance for the development and culmination of Western European Culture and History, and the world at large.

How did the Roman Empire Fall? And Why? How can such a mighty Empire that commanded a military force that numbered close to 2 million men could have fallen? How can an empire with such a vast navy fall?

As I said earlier in my posts, the fall of the Greatest Empire in the history of the world was not a result of one individual or one factor, but, instead, was an effect and an inevitable result of multifactorial causes.

By the 5th Century AD, the Roman Empire had grown so large and so vast that over 40 million souls lived within its political sphere. One Fourth of the world's populations lived and died under the rule of the Roman Caesars. By the 5th century, the Roman Empire was divided in two: The Western Roman Empire, whose capital was in Rome and the Eastern Roman Empire, whose capital was in Constantinople. The reasons for the division of the empire was simply political and military. The empire had grown too large to be controlled under one political unit, due to the vastness of the terrain, and areas, ruling over its provinces and effectively emanating Imperial decrees from Rome to its distant provinces took months even years to occur. Bureaucracy was too large, and due to that aspect, corruption was rampant. Constantine the Great, the first Christian Roman Emperor tried to unite the two empires again--establishing a neo-Augutinian edict to unify the two sister cities (Rome and Constantinople), however, following emperors had difficulty in maintaining the military and dealing with the political squabbles in the Imperial Senate--thereby made it mandatory to permanently divide the Roman Empire in two.

Note that corruption was already a problem. What exacerbated the problem and led to the ultimate fall of the declining Western Roman Empire was the presence of the Vandals and Visigoths.

Due to the shear expanse of the territory of Rome, most of its legions were scattered around the provinces, many in Brittania, many in Hispanola, many in North Africa, Many in Judea (Palastina), many in Latinium (Italian peninsula), many in Germania, in Gaul, etc) Due to the scattering of the legions, Rom had difficulty in dealing with the constant arrival of Barbarians arriving in its borders and settling in Roman territories. Rome made peace with the Visigoths, and utilized them to augment its legions; a result of this closeness was Visigoths learning of Roman military cadence and tactics. Which would haunt Rome in the future.

During the continuity of these events, the Roman Military Machine had been greatly weakened by constant wars, and the de-centralization that occurred after Barbarians populated the empire. Many of Rome's soldier's adapted and took up barbarian culture (an effect of being stationed in the distant provinces and away form Roman culture). At the same time, there was continuous political bickering in the Imperial Capital. Senators against senators, bribery was rampant, corruption within the bureaucracy widespread and the Emperors themselves were being murdered on a regular basis--thereby manifesting an environment and feeling of 'inconcistency' within the Empire.

The fall of Rome culminated in the 5th century. Alaric, the Visigoth King and a Roman Magister Militum (master soldier) stormed the city of Rome after months of sieging the Great City.
The Visigoths were able to storm the city so quickly and so decisively because the tactics they utilized were Roman Tactics. They used Roman military sieging techniques (which they learned form the Romans, ironically).

Rome's Military Legions were unable to come to the aid of the City due to preoccupation in military campaigns and distant wars (Against the Suenes in Spain, against the Berbers in North Africa, against the Vandals, against the Ostrogoths, the Dacians, etc) By the time a Roman Military expedition was sent to relieve the City of Rome, it was already too late.

The Emperor was abdicated from the throne, and the Visigoths penetrated and had already ripped through the Imperial City. The Heart of the Roman Empire.

Logistics and the size of the empire was its ultimate downfall.

-Lorenzo

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Datu Dagohoy · « **Reply #12 on:** March 23, 2009, 03:56:55 PM »

Christianity has more followers than any other religion. It centers on Jesus Christ, whom Christians consider to be the Son of God. His birth marks the first year of the Christian calendar, the one most people use today.
HOW DID CHRISTIANITY BEGIN?
The story of Christianity begins with Jesus. He was born about 2,000 years ago in Bethlehem, a town in the ancient Middle Eastern region of Judea.
Jesus preached that God is love. He told people to love even their enemies. He also spoke about the Kingdom of God. Jesus said God was coming to Earth to be with his people in the Kingdom of God. He urged his followers to ask God to forgive them for their sinful ways so they could enter the Kingdom of God.
The teachings of Jesus were popular. He won many followers. But the Roman rulers of Judea feared Jesus. They thought he wanted to overthrow their government, and they accused him of treason.
Jesus was crucified, or nailed to a cross, to die. Crucifixion is how the Romans executed criminals. But Jesusâ€™ followers believed that he came back to life and rose into heaven. This event is called the Resurrection. The crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus are central to Christianity.
Christians honor the anniversary of the Crucifixion on Good Friday. They celebrate the Resurrection on Easter Sunday.
WHAT IS THE BIBLE?
After Jesus died, his followers, called apostles, spread his message. They gathered everything they remembered about Jesus into a collection of writings. This collection is called the New Testament. Christians refer to Hebrew sacred writings composed before Jesusâ€™ birth as the Old Testament. Together, the New Testament and the Old Testament form the Christian Bible. The Bible is the holy book of Christianity.
WHAT DO CHRISTIANS BELIEVE?
Most Christians see God as a Trinityâ€”a being that exists as three persons. There is God the Father, Jesus Christ his Son, and a guiding force known as the Holy Spirit. Christians believe that anyone who accepts Jesus as the Savior will live forever in heaven after death.
People accept Jesus in a ceremony called baptism. During this ceremony, they are sprinkled with water or dipped in water.
Most Christians go to religious services on Sunday. This day is known as the Sabbath. It honors the resurrection of Jesus, which most Christians believe occurred on a Sunday.
A community of Christians with shared beliefs is called a church. The building in which they worship is also called a church.
HOW DID CHRISTIANITY GROW?
The first Christians were poor people living in the Roman Empire. After a time, richer Romans started converting, too. As Christianity gained more followers, Roman leaders began to see the religion as a threat. Christians refused to worship the Roman emperor. The Roman leaders treated the Christians cruelly, but their actions only strengthened the beliefs of Christians.
In AD 312, Roman emperor Constantine himself converted to Christianity. Rome became a Christian empire.
MANY KINDS OF CHRISTIANS
After the year 395, Rome split into two empires. There was one branch in the east and another in the west. Gradually, Christianity developed two branches, too. In the Eastern Empire, it became the Orthodox Church. In the Western Empire, it became the Roman Catholic Church.
Priests called bishops had special authority in both the eastern and western churches. In the west, the bishop of Rome became the top religious leader. He is known as the pope.
In 1512, a man named Martin Luther protested against the power of the pope and the traditions of the Roman Catholic Church. Luther believed that the church had strayed from the teachings of Jesus. He said people needed only faith and the Bible to live Christian lives. His ideas spread.
Groups that left the Roman Catholic Church to form their own churches were called Protestants. In England, King Henry VIII led the protest. He established the Protestant Church of England and made himself the head of it.
The movement to reform Christianity is remembered as the Protestant Reformation. As a result of the Reformation, there are Baptists, Lutherans, Methodists, Presbyterians, and many other Protestant groups. Today, about 2 billion people in the world call themselves Christians.

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Datu Dagohoy · « **Reply #13 on:** March 23, 2009, 03:59:28 PM »

Martin Luther

Martin Luther was a German preacher who trusted the Bible and quarreled with the pope. His search for religious truth led to the creation of a new branch of Christianity called Protestantism. Protestants do not accept the authority of the pope, the person who heads the Roman Catholic Church.

A RELIGIOUS LIFE

Martin Luther was born in Eisleben, Germany, in 1483. At the age of 21, he joined a monastery, and at 23, he became a Roman Catholic priest. From 1512 until his death, he was professor of theology (religion) at the University of Wittenberg in Germany.

CALLS FOR REFORM

Luther lived at a time when many people were criticizing the Roman Catholic Church. They said its leaders were corrupt and lazy. They complained that its priests did not teach people the true message of Jesus Christ.

Luther shared these criticisms. His Bible studies also led him to challenge key Catholic ideas. In particular, he believed that people could only be saved from sin by faith in God and trust in Godâ€™s grace (love and mercy). He did not believe Catholic preachers, who said that good works and rich gifts to the church were also necessary. He was outraged when preachers offered to sell Godâ€™s forgiveness to raise money to build a cathedral. In 1517, Luther nailed a list of 95 complaints to a church door in Wittenberg.

EXCOMMUNICATION!

Catholic leaders could not ignore Lutherâ€™s protest. In 1521, the pope excommunicated Lutherâ€”that is, he banned Luther from taking part in Catholic worship. The princes who ruled Germany tried to make Luther apologize. But Luther refused. He told them rulers should not interfere in religion.

Luther spent the rest of his life teaching and writing. He met scholars and priests who came to Wittenberg to discuss religious reforms. He translated the Bible into German, so that ordinary people could study it. His text was so widely read that it helped shape a new version of the German language.

A NEW CHURCH

Luther died in 1546, but his ideas remained powerful. His followers founded Lutheranism, the first form of Protestantism. Lutherans worshiped simply and trusted in Godâ€™s grace. Lutheranism spread from Germany to many parts of Europe, and then to most parts of the world.

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Amir · « **Reply #14 on:** March 27, 2009, 11:19:59 PM »

tungod man god ni Martin Luther (German nga Pari) ga protestanti sya, unya ga concentrate sya sa europe unya ang Roman Catholic ga concentrate sa parting east part of the world.

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Raquelproud boholana · « **Reply #15 on:** March 28, 2009, 03:32:00 AM »

I think the answer on this is the Roman Empire spend huge amount of money on the Army trying to control the empire. Plus they keep raising taxes on everybody to pay for all the government expenditure. Huge bloated bureaucracy. Too many unproductive people living off the productive members.
Collapse gyud ang empire kung magsalig na tanan sa welfare sa goberno,ug segi na padala ug gira sa tibook kalibutan.Di lang ni sa roman empire nahitabo but magbalik balik jud ni mao ni giingon history repeat itself.

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raldampong · « **Reply #16 on:** March 28, 2009, 05:15:03 AM »

Its the In-fighting between the Commander Agustus and Commander Mark Anthony in Alexandra, Egypt. That lead to that dismantled the Roman Army.

When Popei died, Julius Ceasars take over the reined as Emperor and declared himself Emperor-God and his married to Cleopatra, thought to make Roman Empire more stronger and bigger.

Some Senator are not happy because of Mark Anthony being the Commander in Chief of the Army.

Cecero, an great orator of the senate started to allied with the opposition that lead to the stabbing of Julius Ceasar in the Senate.

When Mark Anthony stationed in Alexandra it weaken the forces that loyal to Julius while Agustus is plotting a coup d'tat againts his adapted Father which is Juluis Ceasar.

Titus Polo, a braves Roman Soldier who impregnated Cleopatra was real father of the Son of GOD which is little Ceasar. When Agustus Army defeated Mark Anthony, Cleopatra sent their son exiled in India with some of their trusted Caretaker of their Son.

While Mark Anthony father a son and a daughter Selene Cleopatra to Cleopatra. Cleopatra was considered the last Pharoah of Egypt, but in reality its Little Ceasar the son of Titus.

The Son of God was educated in India? And came back to claim his Holy Roman Empire. But not thru WAR, but in the name of a New Religion called Chiristianity.

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #17 on:** March 28, 2009, 06:09:21 AM »

I think the answer on this is the Roman Empire spend huge amount of money on the Army trying to control the empire. Plus they keep raising taxes on everybody to pay for all the government expenditure. Huge bloated bureaucracy. Too many unproductive people living off the productive members.
Collapse gyud ang empire kung magsalig na tanan sa welfare sa goberno,ug segi na padala ug gira sa tibook kalibutan.Di lang ni sa roman empire nahitabo but magbalik balik jud ni mao ni giingon history repeat itself.

Yes, very true.

It is also important to note that when the Roman Empire was in its zenith, during the Julius-Nervian Dynasty, most of the peoples in Europe were still primitive, therefore, many of them including the Gauls, Visigoths etc fell quickly under the banner of Roman Legions.

It is undeniable that the Imperial Army was the most organized military fighting force in the world at the time. It was the order, and discipline of the Roman Empire that allowed it to surmount over obstacles. Facilitated the Romanization of most of Europa (the regions that were under Roman control).

However, as centuries passed, Roman culture, technology, language, religion, and domestic culture being exported abroad led to the formation and development of distinct cultures in many barbaric societies that arrived in the Roman Frontier. Per se the Ostrogoths, Dacians, Vandals Visigoths etc. Which would ultimately be one of the many factors that led to the ultimate demise of the Western Roman Empire.

The Roman Military was, indeed, great and numerous. But it was spread out thin to control and provide law and order throughout the continuity of the Empire.

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #18 on:** March 28, 2009, 06:15:43 AM »

I want to clear up some misconception in here.

The Roman Empire did not fall completely in one particular date. The Empire's collapse took centuries.

Yes, the Western Roman Empire did collapse in the 5th century. After its collapse, the many provinces of the Western Half of the Roman Empire splintered into princedoms, and kingdoms and Italian states.

However, the Eastern Half of the Roman Empire was spared from total collapse in the 5th century. The Eastern Roman Empire, whose capital was in Byzantium (Constantinople) was prosperous (economically) enjoying the bounty of trade with the Orient to the east, Arabia in the south, and Eastern Europe to its north.

After the fall of the the Western Roman Empire, the Eastern Roman Empire continued to live on. Albeit under another name, and ushered a new age. Emperor Justinian I declared that the old 'Eastern Roman Empire' would be known as The Byzantine Empire.

The Byzantine Empire would last for another 1,000 years; until the 15th century when the Muslim Turks finally extinguished the only remnant of the ROMAN EMPIRE. Constantinople fell in 1453 and under the Turks, it would be renamed as "Istanbul".

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #19 on:** March 28, 2009, 06:23:11 AM »

The Roman Empire

When one looks at the map of the classical Roman Empire during the age of Pax Romana "Roman Peace", during the age of Emperor Augustus the Great, one is simply amazed that such a vast empire existed and worked and functioned for almost a thousand years. The depth of the expanse of the Roman Empire is larger than the modern-day European Union. The Empire not only controlled Europe, but also had provinces in Africa and Asia Minor.

1/4th of the world's population lived and died under the rule of the Caesars.

The Classical Roman Empire.

The Byzantine Empire (former Eastern Roman Empire)
The zenith of the Byzantine Empire under Emperor Justinian the Great.

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #20 on:** March 28, 2009, 12:31:42 PM »

On the Roman Army:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ndh3b9wC-A0&feature=related

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raldampong · « **Reply #21 on:** March 29, 2009, 10:35:01 PM »

Its the In-fighting between the Commander Agustus and Commander Mark Anthony in Alexandra, Egypt. That lead to that dismantled the Roman Army.

When Popei died, Julius Ceasars take over the reined as Emperor and declared himself Emperor-God and his married to Cleopatra, thought to make Roman Empire more stronger and bigger.

Some Senator are not happy because of Mark Anthony being the Commander in Chief of the Army.

Cecero, an great orator of the senate started to allied with the opposition that lead to the stabbing of Julius Ceasar in the Senate.

When Mark Anthony stationed in Alexandra it weaken the forces that loyal to Julius while Agustus is plotting a coup d'tat againts his adapted Father which is Juluis Ceasar.

Titus Polo, a braves Roman Soldier who impregnated Cleopatra was real father of the Son of GOD which is little Ceasar. When Agustus Army defeated Mark Anthony, Cleopatra sent their son exiled in India with some of their trusted Caretaker of their Son.

While Mark Anthony fathered a son and a daughter Selene Cleopatra to Cleopatra. Cleopatra was considered the last Pharoah of Egypt, but in reality its Little Ceasar the son of Titus.

The Son of God was educated in India? And came back to claim his Holy Roman Empire. But not thru WAR, but in the name of a New Religion called Chiristianity.

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #22 on:** March 31, 2009, 11:54:58 AM »

Interesting perspective, Mr. Rald.

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raldampong · « **Reply #23 on:** March 31, 2009, 10:38:22 PM »

Interesting perspective, Mr. Rald.

Dong Bran, many researcher believe that Little JC (Julius Ceasar) was Jesus Christ in real life he twelve when sent to India. Selene Cleopatra is Magdalene and James is his half brother fathered by Mark Anthony, they are half brother of Jesus and their mother is Cleopatra.

Little Julius Ceasar came back to Alexandra when he was 30 to find his half sister and half bother and married her.

A russian writer in the 12 century translated a 1000 years old Tibetan scripture about a holy man from Mediteranean region came as scholar and left when he was in his 30's. The date was almost coincide from the reigned of Emperor Tibirius. Little JC was almost age of Tibirius. The only accurate dating they can fined.

This coincide the missing years of Jesus as an adult and knowledges in Holy teaching. Speak different languages other than Aramaic and can read sancrits.

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #24 on:** April 01, 2009, 07:35:21 AM »

Mr. Rald, Id like to read more into this research. It sparks my quaint interest.

The only discrepancy that I immediately recognize is purely chronological-based.

Caesar Julius was murdered in 44 BC, giving a 40 some year gap. Christ Jesus was speculated to have been born during the reign of Herod I, which was in the early 1st century AD, and was said to have died in his 30s, estimating the Lord's death on the cross in around 33 AD.

Gaius Julius Caesar was murdered in 44 BC, and his son was said to have been sent to India. Historically speaking, that would have made him around 70 years old during the time of Christ's death. And around the age of 40+ during the time when Christ was born.

Nonetheless, interesting perspective.

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #25 on:** April 01, 2009, 07:48:50 AM »

Mr. Rald, you did bring up an interesting point. Emperor Worship. Yes, you are right, Sir, during the time after Augustus, the state promulgated the act of Imperial Divinity. Thereby making it a Roman Law, and since the Imperial Senate and the Praestors controlled religious festivities, made it necessary for Roman citizens to usher Divine praises to the Emperor of Rome.

This was actually nothing more than precedent.

After the murder of Gaius Julius Caesar in 44 B.C by Cassius, Brutus and supporters, the people of Rome, under influence by Marcus Antonius, who was also Co-Rulers of the 1st Triumirate. (Power shared with Octavius).

Gaius Julius Caesar was so popular within the plebians, that even after his ceremonial cremation, the people of Rome demanded his divination. Under redress by the People of Rome and by the Armies of Rome, the Imperial Senate acquiesced to this request.

Formally and officially deified Julius Caesar as a GOD. He would be known as Divus Iulius.

And it was only after the rule of his grand nephew, Octavius, who would be known as Augustus Caesar, the 1st Emperor, that the precedent of Imperial Divinity took place. Augustus was praised and honored by his subjects, and was considered a God in life and in death.

Imperial Divinity and Right of Divinity was used by Roman emperors to legitimize their rule. By claiming favor from the gods. But this precedent ended, officially, upon the coronation of Emperor Constantine I. Constantine was also a Christian. And denied the divinity of the emperor, recognizing only the divinity in Christ.

It was Constantine who brought up laws and edicts that made it hostile to be pagan; by levies of taxation.

Emperor Diocletian, was really the last pure 'pagan' Roman Emperor that maintained the divinity of the Emperors. As after Constantine I, most emperors were Christian.

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #26 on:** April 01, 2009, 08:20:02 AM »

Lets analyze the statues of the Roman Emperors and observe the divinity portrayed in their image.

This statue is of Emperor Gaius Julius Caesar Augustus Germanicus (CALIGULA "little boots")

Caligula applied the Imperial Directive and asserted his Divine Authority in his decrees. Notice in his statue that he is crowned with the Wreath, which signifies Divinity. Again he is robed in ceremonial priestly attire, which required little covering on the upper torso, as a role of the priest required to offcer sacrifices to the gods. Priests didn't wear upper torso clothing since it would be stained red by the blood of sacrifices.

Caligula's statue indicates that he is the Chief Priest of the Empire, as the role of the Emperor was the protector of the Religious activities and the primarch of worship. By wearing the Imperial Crown and the attire of a Roman Priest, he declares that his authority and power comes not only by political right, but by the favor of the gods.

Also notice that in his left hand he has the mantle of the Consul and Praetor, signifying political power. And in his left hand, he holds a worshiping plate. In roman religion, you would offer burnt offerings on such plates to the statues of the gods. Caligula holds one on his left hand, signifying the need to offer divine praises and sacrifices to him. It declares his divinty.

Notice that by his feet, is the emblem of the Roman Empire. The Roman Eagle. Usually, a Roman Eagle's wings is outstretched (as seen in the banner of legions), but in this case, its wings are folded, signifying fealty and respect. A sign of prostration. The Roman Eagle, which is the symbol of the State also standing by the foot of Caligula, indicating that the State is below the Emperor Caligula. Notice that the Eagle looks up to Emperor Caligula. It signifies Caligula's Divinity. It declares, "I am A God-Emperor, By whose authority was given to me by the gods above, and by right and right alone, to rule and command Rome, its legions, its people, and empire"

Another statue to analyze:

This is yet another statue of Emperor Caligula.
Note he is dressed in full military breast plate, which signifies his Imperial Authority.
Yet on his head, he is wearing the headdress of a roman priest.

The emperors combined items of their Imperial office with that of religious symbolism (either it by a priestly regalia) to portray their authority. Divine Authority.

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raldampong · « **Reply #27 on:** April 01, 2009, 02:14:20 PM »

The researcher found out that there's a seven years descrepancy in converting the Roman calendar to Gregorian plus there's no 0 AD or 0 BC.

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #28 on:** April 01, 2009, 02:15:07 PM »

Interesting perspective, Sir.

I'll have to read more about it.

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buwadsanga · « **Reply #29 on:** April 01, 2009, 04:00:43 PM »

ngano tawong miabut man mo ni martin. roman empire may gihisgutan! pagka bu**** aning topica uy? wa bamo kuyapi?

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buwadsanga · « **Reply #30 on:** April 01, 2009, 04:01:28 PM »

mura mag na saag sa panahon sa datu!

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raldampong · « **Reply #31 on:** April 02, 2009, 04:07:53 PM »

Buwad, theres a connection it collapsed because promised to dismantle all Kingdom and the Kingdom of God will remain. As He himself declared as "Son of God" he came back to claimed it thru His Holy Teaching.

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Amir · « **Reply #32 on:** April 02, 2009, 07:24:01 PM »

Buwad, theres a connection it collapsed because promised to dismantle all Kingdom and the Kingdom of God will remain. As He himself declared as "Son of God" he cmame back to claimed it thru His Holy Teaching.

Tama Sir karon palang bag-o daghan ng mga kingdom nga nabungkag, latest was Kingdom of Nepal, Thailand hapit sab na mabungkag basta daghan pang uban

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #33 on:** April 06, 2009, 10:11:12 AM »

The Roman Empire served its purpose.

The Empire brought nations and kingdoms under one rule, and it provided, due to effective infrastructure and mass communication allowed through its roads and postal systems and its massive navy, allowed the free-flow of thought and discourse.

Not only did it allow the exportation of Roman law, Roman culture, Roman military tactics, but also even Roman-based religions.

Christianity, Through the Grace of God Almighty, conquored the city of Rome in AD 300. Even before that, during the age of Caligula and Nero, there were already practicing Christians in the city of Rome. Many of them were massacred and were martyred.

But think about the miracle of Christianity.

That this faith, which was under attack for centuries, managed to overtake the entire city. The conversion of Emperor Constantine on the Battle of Mirvian Bridge led to the change of Roman History, itself.

When Rome became Christian, it exported and facilitated the growth of the faith. Roman Christianity exported the faith to Germania, to Gaul, to Hispola, to North Africa, to Egypt, to Constantinople, to Macedona, to Dacia, to Brittania, etc etc.

Even though the Roman Empire collapsed, politically speaking, the unifying factor did not. Christianity lived on, and spread vibrantly throughout Europe. And from Europe, it would be exported throughout the entire world.

The Old Roman Colony of Hispanola would one day become the mighty Spanish Empire. And Spain expoted Roman Christianity (Roman Catholicism) to the new world. North and South America, as well as the Philippines.

Catholicism in the Philippines is a DIRECT link to the Roman Empire via the maternal link with Spain.

Philippines --Spain--Imperium Romanum.

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raldampong · « **Reply #34 on:** April 06, 2009, 04:27:01 PM »

You are right Dong Bran, But the question still unanswered. Who is the real son of GOD. Where was he for the last 17 years. IS he influenced from the teaching from Budhism.

All this question will rewrite history if proven right.

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #35 on:** April 07, 2009, 12:16:07 AM »

Discussing Jesus Christ is not necessary in this thread. All I know is that Jesus Christ is the ONLY BEGOTTEN son of GOD.

Jesus Christ is eternally begotten of The Father, and is equally part of the Trinity of the Eternal God Head. The Father, The Son, and the Holy Spirit.

The Bible left 17 years out of Jesus' Life because it is unecessary in preaching the purpose of Christ's Descent from Heaven to Earth.

Christ came to the World to die for our sins.

Let us discuss this in another thread.

Cheers.

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raldampong · « **Reply #36 on:** April 07, 2009, 03:08:48 PM »

Dong Bran, I can't debate anymore beyond this point. Its not really proven researched about Jesus as the son of Cleopatra and Gaus Julius Ceasar and boilogical father Titus Polo.

Since Christians brought down the Roman Empire on his knees by converting to Christianity and Christianity is Jesus.

Its is rightfully to say that, Jesus Holy teaching brought down Kingdoms. Amen

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #37 on:** April 09, 2009, 03:29:47 AM »

I do agree with you that Christ transfigured not only himself, but those who condemned Him on the cross.

The Roman Empire crucified the Lord Jesus Christ on the tree of the Cross.

Ironic and yet befitting that it would be Christianity that would supplant the Old Roman Pagan worship as the state religion.

Christianity boomed in Rome; and from Rome and at Rome, it would spread the Word of God to the 4 corners of the World.

The historiography of Christianity is a Living Miracle.
Provided by the Grace of Our Lord Jesus Christ.
The Salvation of The Whole World.

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #38 on:** April 11, 2009, 09:57:15 AM »

We talked about the fall of the Roman Empire, let us also talk about its Rise.

Classical Roman Epoch is one of my favorite epochs in history.
Before Rome, there was barbarity in Europe, uncivilized, anarchy.
After Rome, there was Roman Law, Roman Order, Roman Culture and Civility.

Let us celebrate the life and works of Gaius Octavian Caesar (Augustus), The First Emperor of Rome.

Pater Patriae: Father of the Fatherland.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EgbbPYE-Ics

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #39 on:** April 11, 2009, 11:42:43 AM »

How about Martin Luther, I thought he was one responsible to weakened and led to collapsed the strongest and powerful Roman Empire.

No, Martin Luther didn't do such thing. Martin Luther was a Catholic Monk turned reformer, whose 95 thesis led to the reformation of the Roman Catholic Church and some questionable tactics.

The classical Roman Empire collapsed in the 5th century AD (Western Roman Empire) and in the 15th century (Eastern Roman Empire/ Byzantine Empire).

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raldampong · « **Reply #40 on:** April 11, 2009, 03:18:38 PM »

Octavian is son of Marcus Antonus to Athea Julia his mother the sister of Gaius Julius Ceasar. He became a favorite nephew of Gaius Juluis Ceasar and adapted son. He and his father allied to depeat the republican Army of Lapidus And came back to Rome to become a Politician(consul). Later on He hated his father Marcus Antonius very much because of his affair to Cleopatra. And dismantled his own father Marcus Antonius in Egypt.

Later he became Emperor Agustus. And restored peace in The Roman Empire.

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #41 on:** April 11, 2009, 08:14:35 PM »

The Accomplishments of Caesar Augustus: Pater Patriae, Imperator Pontificux et Imperium Romanum:

27 BC : The Senate gave him the title of 'Augustus' a religious coronatory name meaning "Great & Magnificent"

23 BC: Augustus received the Authority of a Tribune and the Proconsular Power In the Provinces

19 BC: Augustus took the Consular Power, and recieved the "Cura Morum" to restore old moral virtues.

12 BC: He became Pontifex Maximus by the election of the Roman Masses throughout all Italy

-During One Year, Augustus renovated 82 Temples of the Gods

-It was Augustus that expanded The Roman Empire to its zenith and declared it not to over-extend its borders.

2 BC: For his extraordinary achievements, the Roman Senate gave him the title, "Pater Patriae" (Father of the Fatherland)

-The 40 years of Augustus' Rule was the most auspicious time in Roman History. It was known as "PAX ROMANUM or PAX AUGUSTA" (Roman Peace, Augstinian Peace)

-Augustus was idolized in Roman literature, sculpture and reliefs

-Extremely popular by the masses and by his legions abroad

14 AD: Emperor Caesar Augustus died in Rome. The Emperor passed away while sitting on the Gold Throne proclaiming edicts, dying while doing his duty to His Empire and His people.

-All of Rome mourned the death of Her God-Emperor. State Mourning for 2 years.

-While Augustus' body was burning in the Imperial Cremation, one senator saw Augustus ascending to Heaven.

-On 17th of September, AD 14: Augustus was elevated to a God, by the Senate and People.

-The empire that he built would last for over 1500 years. And the spirit of his empire, the culture, organization, order, law, tactics, republicanism, exists in the governments of today.

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #42 on:** April 11, 2009, 08:22:14 PM »

The magnificent and auspicious rule of Emperor Augustus, which saw the greatest rise of Roman culture,economy, military prominence, was and is remembered by historians and people, was unequaled and unrivaled by any other Emperor in Roman History.

Augustus The Great only had one flaw, he bore no male child heir to his Imperial Throne.

Augustus gave everything to the Empire, body and soul. He personally commanded armies in his wars to conquering all of Gaul and Germania, attended most Roman religious rituals, traveled to Egypt, Parthia. The pressure of the Imperial Office was definite on the Emperor.

He was unsuccessful in providing the Empire with a male son.

Instead, by proclamation, he named his next of kin, a nephew, Tiberius, to be his regent.

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #43 on:** April 11, 2009, 08:27:01 PM »

The historian, Dr. Turk, a Professor of World History and Roman History at Allegheny College, once said, "Had the Roman Empire produced an Augustus-Like Emperor 3-4 times, Rome would never have fallen. Rome would have conquored the entire world."

I contextually agree with that statement.

In the battle of Philippi, Gaius Octavian Caesar (Augustus) commanded and led his army against the Republican Army led by Brutus and Cassius. Though numerically inferior to the Republican Army, Augustus was able to route the entire Republican Army.

A TOTAL victory.

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #44 on:** April 11, 2009, 10:15:13 PM »

Octavian is son of Marcus Antonus to Athea Julia his mother the sister of Gaius Julius Ceasar. He became a favorite nephew of Gaius Juluis Ceasar and adapted son. He and his father allied to depeat the republican Army of Lapidus And came back to Rome to become a Politician(consul). Later on He hated his father Marcus Antonius very much because of his affair to Cleopatra. And dismantled his own father Marcus Antonius in Egypt.

Later he became Emperor Agustus. And restored peace in The Roman Empire.

Augustus changed the face of Rome, and its political structure, as well.

Prior to his rise to power, Rome existed as a Republic, since the Brutii and the Scipii deposed the last truscan Monarchy some centuries prior.

Roman Republicanism, was the purest form of a Federalist Republic, existing for almost 4 centuries. It was under Roman Republicanism that led to the defeat of the Carthaginians to the Republic in all 3 Punic Wars, leading to the substantial growth of Rome's Possessions overseas--which was one of the main reasons that stimulated the growth of the Roman Navy.

It would supplant the Carthaginian Navy as the largest naval power throughout the entire Mediterranean, and the world at the time.

We have to analyze the actions of the Senate of Rome. This way we can analyze and have a firm bearing on why Caesar Julius was murdered in the Capitoline Steps within the Senatorial Chambers. The senatorial leaders such as Cassius, Brutus, and Cicero believed that Julius Caesar were to remain Dictator for Life, he would undermine the Senate's powers and thwart the present idealogues of Roman Republicanism. They feared a reversal of the political advances of the day, they feared that Rome would yet again become an absolutist monarchy, that was deaf to the pleas of the people and numb to the Republican Democracy that epitomized the Roman Cause.

His murder was perceived to have been the only solution.

They were wrong. The senate was wrong. Immeasurably wrong.

After his death, the heir of Julius Caesar was his grand-nephew, Gaius Octavian Caear (Augustus), who would out due and outlive his adoptive father. In his life time, Augustus would multiply the gains won by Caesar, and dealt a heavy blow to the notion of Roman Republicanism.

Augustus' rise to the throne brought in great centralization to the powers of the Emperor, and marginalized the powers of the Senate. The pure form of Roman Republican Democracy was extinguished altogether in BC 23 when Augustus was proclaimed IMPERATOR, because his role and position was greater than what Caesar Julius ever dreamed. Julius Caesar wanted to become Dictator for Life, and remain the Consul of the Senate.

But what Augustus did, and bequethed by Imperial Decree, was elevate his position above the Senate and the People of Rome. The creation of the Office of The Emperor was, categorically speaking, a religious one. The Emperor and the Office of the Emperor was that of a Religious Primarchy, he was considered the living, breathing, flesh-incarnation of JUPITER, The Roman King of The Gods. Quite similar to the role of Pharaoh in Egyptian civilization and religion. The notion of God-King, or in this case, a God-Emperor.

Augusus not only created a new office, an Imperial Office, but also faciliated the creation of the notion of a God-Emperor. He was, in their society, the personal God for the Roman Citizen. And burning incense and offering prayers to the Emperor was quite common in the Classical Roman Imperial Epoch.

So in the end, the Senate did fail. Their powers were extrapolated and conferred upon the Emperor. The Emperor was considered to be not only a God-Deity, but the Will of the Roman Empire. His word was law, his word was truth, his word was absolute and unchallengeable like the walls of Rome.

Yes, so indeed, the Roman Republic was altogether destroyed and replaced by the Roman Empire.
That is how a Monarchy destroys a Republic.

We see a reversal of political systems in this analysis. First we have an Etruscan Monarchy, which was then overturned and replaced by a Roman Republic, which then would be replaced by an Imperial Monarchical System. With Absolute Power.

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #45 on:** April 12, 2009, 03:16:33 AM »

Interestingly enough,

I've had many a conversation with fellow historians and history students regarding Augustus and leaders in the last 3-4 centuries. One colleague of mine back in Allegheny College, who now is a PhD doctoral student at Duke University, argued that Hitler was similar in the likes of Augustus. In terms of military quota and ambition.

I disagreed, Hitler didn't even come close to the genius that was Augustus. Hitler's military tactics were folly: per se Operation Barbarosa, his foolish venture to conquer the USSR, which failed absolutely, resulting in the loss of over 35 Divisions of Germany's best and the sacrifice of his famed Panzer Divisions. Hitler butched millions of peoples for a foolish ideology of purification, Augustus was nothing like that.

Hitler was not even remotely close to the political and overall Genius of Caesar Augustus.

Hitler was more of a Romulus Augustulus than anything else. --- The result of a tired and economically backwards peoples

Augustus was a living and breathing genius in his time, who dreamed of making the Elbe the new 'Roman Frontier'. Augustus wasn't a war hawk, rather he brought about the greatest epoch in Roman History, PAX ROMANA 'Roman Peace'. Which lasted for about 40-50 years. It was the most prosperous and peaceful time throughout the continuum of The Roman Empire! There were no wars, production and infrastructure boomed in unprecedented levels never heard of or seen of.

It was under the rule of Augusts that the Empire reformed its Legions and tactics in siege warfare and agricultural revolution blossomed. Bringing in grain from Egypt and Germania-Gaul, and zinc, copper, tungsten, metal ore from Hispanola and Dacia, Gold and ivory from North Africa, and timber and stone from Brittania, and the spices from Parthia and the East.

Hail Great Augustus!
Who Is Forever the First Emperor!
The Pillar of the Roman World!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIpjLWQCSY8

-Lorenzo

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raldampong · « **Reply #46 on:** April 12, 2009, 10:57:48 PM »

Dong, did you notice the time table. This also the time of Jesus suffering from Romans.

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #47 on:** April 13, 2009, 04:42:22 AM »

That is very true, Mr. Rald.

The different perspectives of the societies.

That is one of the many reasons why Herod I and his son, Herod Antipas was unpopular with the Jewish people at the time.

Herod was busy trying to enlighten Caesar Augustus that he even built a city called Tiberias and built it in Roman form. And even erected a Temple to Jupiter, to Diana and to the Emperor himself.

Burning incense and offering prayers to the Emperor.

To the Jews and to Christ, no doubt, the actions of Herod was blasphemy.

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #48 on:** April 13, 2009, 04:52:43 AM »

Mr. Rald, you know I was thinking about this some time earlier, but I remember reading a translation of some writings by Claudius Marxentius and of Cicero, who were both scholars in the Roman World during the ending of the BC epoch and the start of the AD epoch;

It was a critical analysis on their part on the Jewish Religion and a comparison to the Roman religion.

We know that in Judaism and similar to Christianity that there is only ONE God, The God of Moses, Abraham, all the prophets of olden days.

The Roman philosophers actually were intrigued by Jewish religious practices, and amazed that the Jews only had one god. As we notice that in most river-based and rich societies that there tended to be a pantheon of deities. Similar to Egyptian and Greek deities.

The Romans studied Jewish religion, and were deeply intrigued in the concept of a personal God. As the gods of the Roman religion were rather impersonal; religious doctrine in Rome required sacrifice and physical momentos of the devotee and to the god(s).

What intrigued Cicero and the like was the longstanding faith of the Jew.

Many civilizations that were conquored by the Romans usually converted to the Roman religion for fear of death, and usually assimilation was quick.
However, the Romans saw the opposite regarding the Province of Judea.

When Rome conquered Judea, Rome built temples of the gods and to the Emperor, and expected a conversion of the local peoples. But to the surprise of the Romans, that manifest will NIL.

Jews remained steadfast to their Monotheistic faith, and abhorred the notion of the pluralism of Roman gods. The Jews, outright, rejected the notion that Caesar was a God. Many Jews reviled the statues to Caesar and desecrating its image, which to the Romans was blasphemy.

It is amazing to me, that even since the days of Christ, the Jews and Early Christians were vehement to their faith. Sticking to their faith under fear of death.

As powerful as Rome was, not ever her armies could force the Jews or early Christians to convert to its pagan religion.

THAT, is the POWER of FAITH.

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raldampong · « **Reply #49 on:** April 13, 2009, 03:26:04 PM »

There's a saying that "All roads lead to Rome" The Romans built roads and bridges in all the cities they annexed. Even until now still exist The road from Rome to Damascus, Syria in present still usable.

The flows of goods to the Italian cities are unrestricted during that time, They called it the "Renaissance Period". Where cultures, art and literatures flourished during that times of Emperor Agustus.

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #50 on:** April 13, 2009, 03:39:50 PM »

There are some historians that would say that Rome lives on today.
Only in another form, another nation.

There are those who would say that America is the new Roman Empire
and Washington D.C the new Rome.

The United States of America holds true to the notion of a Republican form of Democracy.
The old Roman Senatorial class lives on in the halls of the Congress of the United States: The Senate and the House of Representatives.

And the President as the 'enlightened' form of the Roman Emperor.

There are similarities between the two. Both were super powers in their own times.

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #51 on:** April 13, 2009, 03:47:49 PM »

In fact, its interesting when one analyzes the architecture of the United States Governmental buildings, as it retains a strong Roman-style and form.

Especially the Supreme Court and the United States Capitol Building, which is home to the Senate and House of Representatives.

The United States Supreme Court

The United States Capitol Building
Home to the US Senate and House of Congress
Notice the Roman style in architecture

Abraham Lincoln Memorial
-If you analyze this in a contextual point of view, it is basically a Temple
-The degree of popularity of Lincoln in US history text books, in contextual dialogue, in sociological view, and political reference, his popularity in the American psyche has basically made him into a political deity.

No, I don't believe Rome totally perished.
Rome lives on today.

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raldampong · « **Reply #52 on:** April 13, 2009, 04:00:40 PM »

The magnificent and auspicious rule of Emperor Augustus, which saw the greatest rise of Roman culture,economy, military prominence, was and is remembered by historians and people, was unequaled and unrivaled by any other Emperor in Roman History.

Augustus The Great only had one flaw, he bore no male child heir to his Imperial Throne.

Augustus gave everything to the Empire, body and soul. He personally commanded armies in his wars to conquering all of Gaul and Germania, attended most Roman religious rituals, traveled to Egypt, Parthia. The pressure of the Imperial Office was definite on the Emperor.

He was unsuccessful in providing the Empire with a male son.

Instead, by proclamation, he named his next of kin, a nephew, Tiberius, to be his regent.

Octavian, during his childhood had incesteous affair with her sister Selene. He adored her sister very much that he's heart is just for her sister.

He's father Marcus Antonius thought he is weak. Octavian learned early Political Strategy through his adapted father Gaius Julius Ceasar.

The hatred between Sevilla and Athea started it all. Sevilla is the mother Lapidus. Bruttus and Cassius who allied with Cicero started the plot to kill Julius Cesaer. Sevilla is as concubine of JC who dislike Octavian as heirs in favor of his son Lapidus.

But Julius Cesaer like Octavian very much because of his pure in heart and motives. His love of his people pure. So when JC died his first act of introduction to the populace is give all the money to the people of Rome. About 3 million lira, every citizen will get 300 lira. Nice moved huh.

This make His Mother and father very upset, and sent hi to the south for exiles with a few soldiers, that later on became a Legion that defeated all enemies in the south.

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #53 on:** April 13, 2009, 04:51:09 PM »

It is also interesting to read about what the Roman historians described Augustus. As it adds mortality to the genius that was Augustus.

The historian Seutonius described Augustus as, "He was unusually handsome ... He had clear, bright eyes ... His teeth were wide apart, small, and ill-kept; his hair was slightly curly and inclining to golden; his eyebrows met. His ears were of moderate size, and his nose projected a little at the top and then bent ever so slightly inward. His complexion was between dark and fair. He was short of stature."

Source:

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Suetonius/12Caesars/Augustus*.html#79

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #54 on:** April 13, 2009, 04:58:15 PM »

Augustus was heralded also by the Roman people as a religious primarch, a devotee and devout practictioner of Roman religion.

He was a devotee of the God Mars and Jupiter.

The Roman historian wrote about him:

He (Augustus The Great) built many public works, in particular the following: his forum with the temple of Mars the Avenger, the temple of Apollo on the Palatine, and the fane of Jupiter the Thunderer on the Capitol. His reason for building the forum was the increase in the number of the people and of cases at law, which seemed to call for a third forum, since two were no longer adequate. Therefore it was opened to the public with some haste, before the temple of Mars was finished, and it was provided that the public prosecutions be held there apart from the rest, as well as the selection of jurors by lot.

He reared the temple of Apollo in that part of his house on the Palatine for which the soothsayers declared that the god had shown his desire by striking it with lightning. He joined to it colonnades with Latin and Greek libraries, and when he was getting to be an old man he often held meetings of the senate there as well, and revised the lists of jurors. He dedicated the shrine to Jupiter the Thunderer because of a narrow escape; for on his Cantabrian expedition during a march by night, a flash of lightning grazed his litter and struck the slave dead who was carrying a torch before him.

And many such works were built at that time by many men; for example, the temple of Hercules and the Muses by Marcius Philippus, the temple of Diana by Lucius Cornificius, the Hall of Liberty by Asinius Pollio, the temple of Saturn by Munatius Plancus, a theatre by Cornelius Balbus, an amphitheatre by Statilius Taurus, and by Marcus Agrippa in particular many magnificent structures.

Next to the immortal Gods he honoured the memory of the leaders who had raised the estate of the Roman people from obscurity to greatness. Accordingly he restored the works of such men with their original inscriptions, and in the two colonnades of his forum dedicated statues of all of them in triumphal garb, declaring besides in a proclamation: "I have contrived this to lead the citizens to require me, while I live, and the rulers of later times as well, to attain the standard set by those worthies of old." He also moved the statue of Pompey from the hall in which Gaius Caesar had been slain and placed it on a marble arch opposite the grand door of Pompey's theatre.

Source:
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Suetonius/12Caesars/Augustus*.html#79

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raldampong · « **Reply #55 on:** April 13, 2009, 05:20:16 PM »

Dong, any of our Politician can learn from the history of the Romans. Because history repeat itself.

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #56 on:** April 13, 2009, 05:31:54 PM »

Mr. Rald,

If Augustus were born in our day and managed to rise to the ranks of a senator or politician in the Philippines, the Philippines would become a power house in the region.

The brilliance of Augustus and his piety to his religion is something to be modeled after by any and all politicians. In any epoch.

I would compare his brilliance to that of Abraham Lincoln.

Great in their own time. And still great and honored in later generations.

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #57 on:** April 14, 2009, 09:06:28 AM »

Did you know that Augustus, when he was alive, refused Divine praises?

During the height of his political career, when the title of 'Pater Patriae' (Father Of the Fatherland) was conferred upon him by the Roman Senate, he accepted with hesitation.

Some of his fanatical followers, many of them Senators and centurions in the legions even proposed that he be deified while still alive. Augustus, who never liked excesses in glorifcation, once said to his followers, "Praise not I, target your praises to the Immortal Gods. I am but a servant of Rome."

His commentry had a reversal effect. It only increased his popularity within the plebeians and his supporters in the Roman Senate. Many of whom, despite Caesar's protests, offered him divine praises when he entered the forum and capitolline.

When Augustus addressed the senate, many senators would prostrate themselves in his presence, others would burn incense as Augustus spoke, which was actually only provoked Augustus to anger, the Roman historian Seutonius documented this.

He was so popular in life. Many Roman citizens referring him to 'Jupiterus Pontifex Suprasuperiosux', which was a title of the God Jupiter.

Upon his death, Augustus, who in life refused divine praises, was declared a God by the Senate and People of Rome (SPQR). He was deified not only in the cities, but in Egypt, the province that he conquored some decades prior.

Augustus was the center of the Imperial Cult of the Emperor, and a shrine to his honor was erected rather close to the forum, beside the Temple to Divus Ilius, the deified Julius Caesar.

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buwadsanga · « **Reply #58 on:** April 14, 2009, 09:16:01 AM »

americans should look as a mirror with regards to the fall of roman empire. it will happen and soon to USA, the economy and trillion deficits speaks for itslef. world power is shifting now from the atlantic/pacific to the indian ocean and china sea.

how does a debt ridden country like USA to lead the world.

for the times they are a changin' - bob dylan

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #59 on:** April 14, 2009, 09:21:44 AM »

Dong, any of our Politician can learn from the history of the Romans. Because history repeat itself.

Octavian, during his childhood had incesteous affair with her sister Selene. He adored her sister very much that he's heart is just for her sister.

He's father Marcus Antonius thought he is weak. Octavian learned early Political Strategy through his adapted father Gaius Julius Ceasar.

The hatred between Sevilla and Athea started it all. Sevilla is the mother Lapidus. Bruttus and Cassius who allied with Cicero started the plot to kill Julius Cesaer. Sevilla is as concubine of JC who dislike Octavian as heirs in favor of his son Lapidus.

But Julius Cesaer like Octavian very much because of his pure in heart and motives. His love of his people pure. So when JC died his first act of introduction to the populace is give all the money to the people of Rome. About 3 million lira, every citizen will get 300 lira. Nice moved huh.

This make His Mother and father very upset, and sent hi to the south for exiles with a few soldiers, that later on became a Legion that defeated all enemies in the south.

Octavian was a tactical genius. When his grandmother, Julia Caesaris died, he was the one that delivered the eulogorium (eulogy) prior to her cremation.

The Roman historian Seutonius remarked how well delivered it was. So much that it captured the heart of Julius Caesar, prompting him to adopt his grand-nephew, Octavian.

As Octavian's mother was the niece of Julius Caesar.

Julius Caesar loved the boy so much that he had him recieve the toga virilus (act of Adulthood) in the Forum. And publicly declared before the gods and the Senate that he be his lawful son and heir.

Augustus was only 17 years old and he had already begun political life.

Throughout his life, his tactical genius renovated the empire, constructed roads, and ports, aqueducts, baths, etc.

His masterminding of the empire was absolute. Very little changed in terms of policy throughout the empire with only little modifications during the rule of Trajan and Hadrian. For the net 300 years.

Augustus' son and heir, Tiberius, never wanted to be emperor.

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #60 on:** April 14, 2009, 09:24:17 AM »

americans should look as a mirror with regards to the fall of roman empire. it will happen and soon to USA, the economy and trillion deficits speaks for itslef. world power is shifting now from the atlantic/pacific to the indian ocean and china sea.

how does a debt ridden country like USA to lead the world.

for the times they are a changin' - bob dylan

All civilizations rise and fall, Buwad. But the time isn't nigh for America.
America has yet to reach its zenith.

Rome existed for over 1500 years.

America is only 233 years old. We have another 1000+ years.

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #61 on:** April 14, 2009, 09:31:41 AM »

Did you know why Tiberius refused to be Emperor when duty called him?

He feared his own father. He was afraid of the shoe he had to fit.

In AD 14, when Emperor Augustus the Great passed this world, the Roman Senate convened to declare Tiberius as Emperor.

To the surprise of the Senate, Tiberius once said, "I wish not to have all the power, give me half of government, and the rest can be ruled by the Senate."

The senate was confused and bewildered with such a statement.

One senator refuted, "But, Sire, how long shall you expected the state to be without its head?"

It was only with the instance of the Senate and the legions that Tiberius accepted the throne of his father.

Throughout his life, Tiberius lived under the shadow of his father, Augustus the Great.
As the expectations the state had for his rule was set to the standards pre-ordained by his own father, Augustus.

Tiberius once complained to the Senate, "How can I be expected to surpass Excellence? For surely, Augustus was the epitome of Excellence."

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buwadsanga · « **Reply #62 on:** April 14, 2009, 10:02:00 AM »

hahaaha. modern time is changing in an electronic speed. oneday when you wake up it already happen. you better watchout for it!

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #63 on:** April 14, 2009, 10:12:59 AM »

lol, sure Buwad. Whatever you dream about.

Lets get back to topic shall we

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fdaray · « **Reply #64 on:** April 14, 2009, 12:47:25 PM »

There are a bunch of reasons why the Roman Empire fell. I will discuss them in the order of their importance:

1. Tyranny - When Julius Caesar killed the too corrupt Republic he had replaced a form of bad government with one, which at that time, seemed good. On the short run (~180 years) the empire was better then the old republic, but on the long run it was to be the core of the rotten empire. A long series of emperors had nothing to do with the well-beeing of the empire, they only saw their own interests and vices. Internal crisis weakend the imperial army which was no longer capable of defending the empire.
2. No more practice of virtues. In the time of the republic the romans built the empire step by step, discipline was a common word, law and order reigned everywhere. The barbarians where not (yet) afraid of the mighy legions. When the republic turned into the empire, it was near its peak. Pace came and there was no more need for a well disciplined army or brillliant generals; people mixed and the roman blood was no longer pure (it is strongly related to the difference I wazs talking about: ancient roman- modern italian). The barbarians where now afraid even when they heard the name of the Roman Empire. So on the base of peace and prosperity (the Pax Romana) the empire started to slide downwards. Soon the barbarians started to realise that the mighty roman army was not what it used to be. While they were attacking the boders of the empire the internal crisis decimated the flower of the roman army. And the fall was only at the beginning. Diocletian was the last good emperor to realise that the empire could no longer be governed by one person... At this point there was no turning back...
3. Christianity - some may not agree with me but I (and other people way smarter then me) think that Christianity is one of the most importnat reasons of the decline of the Roman Empire. Christianity told people that the life on earth is, for the most part useless. The material world is only temporary, so people no longer practiced the virtues and simply waited for the kingdom of heaven. The army was no longer considered a priority, because God will not reward the brave man of the legions. As I see it Christianity corroded the very pilars of the Roman society. As there was no more wish to fight, the end was no longer a problem of if, but of when.

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #65 on:** April 14, 2009, 01:09:16 PM »

There are a bunch of reasons why the Roman Empire fell. I will discuss them in the order of their importance:

1. Tyranny - When Julius Caesar killed the too corrupt Republic he had replaced a form of bad government with one, which at that time, seemed good. On the short run (~180 years) the empire was better then the old republic, but on the long run it was to be the core of the rotten empire. A long series of emperors had nothing to do with the well-beeing of the empire, they only saw their own interests and vices. Internal crisis weakend the imperial army which was no longer capable of defending the empire.
2. No more practice of virtues. In the time of the republic the romans built the empire step by step, discipline was a common word, law and order reigned everywhere. The barbarians where not (yet) afraid of the mighy legions. When the republic turned into the empire, it was near its peak. Pace came and there was no more need for a well disciplined army or brillliant generals; people mixed and the roman blood was no longer pure (it is strongly related to the difference I wazs talking about: ancient roman- modern italian). The barbarians where now afraid even when they heard the name of the Roman Empire. So on the base of peace and prosperity (the Pax Romana) the empire started to slide downwards. Soon the barbarians started to realise that the mighty roman army was not what it used to be. While they were attacking the boders of the empire the internal crisis decimated the flower of the roman army. And the fall was only at the beginning. Diocletian was the last good emperor to realise that the empire could no longer be governed by one person... At this point there was no turning back...
3. Christianity - some may not agree with me but I (and other people way smarter then me) think that Christianity is one of the most importnat reasons of the decline of the Roman Empire. Christianity told people that the life on earth is, for the most part useless. The material world is only temporary, so people no longer practiced the virtues and simply waited for the kingdom of heaven. The army was no longer considered a priority, because God will not reward the brave man of the legions. As I see it Christianity corroded the very pilars of the Roman society. As there was no more wish to fight, the end was no longer a problem of if, but of when.

Mr. Daray,

That is a really good synopsis you have there, sir.

Your analysis is astute, sir. I must agree with you regarding the long list of emperors that came after Claudius, though there were some exceptional Emperors that brought some kind of peace and stability to the empire in the later years (per se: Hadrian, Trajan, Diocletian, Marcus Aurelius) thought they were few in number.

One contributing factor that led to the collapse of the Roman Empire was peace and complacency.

The Imperial Army no longer maintained the rigor and strict demeanor that it had proliferated in days of Augustus and Tiberius. Rome's legions were no longer trained in Rome, but were conscripts of barbarians that were Romanized or slaves that were thrust into military service.

As a result of the decentralization of the military, it laxed in ability. You're right, Mr. Daray, Rome's continual breeding with other cultures developed a 'mixed' people. The original Latin Roman no longer existed, but instead was replaced by a mixture of peoples that claimed Roman right, by citizenship.

The rise of Christianity, definitely, did have its effect on the empire. The brutality and militaristic precision of pre-christian Rome was undoubted. We have so many cases of Rome's absolution regarding city states that revolted against Rome being put to the sword (eg, Jerusalem in the revolt of AD 65, the revolt in Alexandria that was put down by razing the city etc). The law and order Rome implemented and kept was made manifest with the use of crucifixion, which symbolized Roman law and order. Crucifixion, altogether, was done away with when Constantine rose to the throne. Since Constantine was Christian, he forbade the use of crucifixion throughout the empire, and made the cross into a religious symbol. The effects of which, is felt even today.

The old Roman virtues that were symbolic of pre-christian Rome was displaced and supplanted with Christian ideals.

One can infer that it weakened the Roman Empire, at the expense of Rome and at the benefit of non-christian barbaric peoples such as the Visigoths, Vandals, Ostrogoths and Berber-Arabs, that took advantage of Rome's weakness and 'Christian Enlightenment'.

Great post, Mr. Daray!

I enjoyed reading it!

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Amir · « **Reply #66 on:** April 14, 2009, 11:25:30 PM »

One thing i was confused is the twist of romans to christianity, how the great romans converted into christians?

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #67 on:** April 15, 2009, 12:26:47 AM »

One thing i was confused is the twist of romans to christianity, how the great romans converted into christians?

This is a question that is deep, Amir. Many historians argue this very question, to which has been a great dialogue.

Though my knowledge in Roman History is limited as compared to other historian contemporaries, I can infer some truths regarding your topic and question.

The old Roman religion was a polytheistic religion, based on the Greek pantheon of deities, with its own concept of creationism, with deities that represented natural aspects. Jupiter, for example, was the Roman Father of the gods, who had the power of lightning and thunder, Mars the Avenger, was the Roman god of war (similar to the Greek deity, Ares, who was the God of war), the goddess Diana, etc.

Roman religion evolved many ways throughout the continuum of the empire, and a major aspect of Roman religion was the prevalence of religious cults and importation of foreign ideology. An example this is made manifest in the growth of the incorporation of the Egyptian goddess, Isis, into the Roman religion after the conquest of Egypt during the reign of Augustus. There were also a prevalence of the Cult of the Emperor. The Emperor of Rome was considered a living and physical God, the physical incarnation of Jupiter. And like wise, it was common for Roman citizens, senators, legionaries to refer to him as, "Pater Nostreum", which means, 'Our Lord'. Divine praises were offered to the Emperor, and many Romans would burn incense to the statue of the Caesars of Rome, a daily practice that was promulgated by the Act of Divinity of Emperors. It was an act that was ordered by the Roman Senate.

One thing you have to take into consideration is that there was no 'personal' God in the Roman religion. The immortal Roman gods did not offer salvation to the citizenry and devotees, so to say, as compared to the role of Christ in Christianity. Christ Jesus offered salvation, and was the personal God for believers. Whereas in Roman religion, it was required for devotees to offer sacrifices to the gods in order to please them and to thwart the anger of the Gods. And prayers to the Emperor was enforced, it was required by law, so as we see there is no personal connection.

The rigidity and looseness of Roman religion led to the conversion of many peoples. Christianity, which was illegal and considered a religious cult during the early days of the empire, grew rapidly and was substantiated as a major world religion due to the massive conversions.

When the Emperor Constantine I, coverted to Christianity after his great epiphany in the Battle of Mirvian Bridge, which he won due to the image of the Cross he saw in the sky. When Constantine was coronated in the Capitolline steps in Rome, he violated and broke Imperial custom. This is interesting to know because when a new Emperor was coronated, the first act of any Emperor was to offer divine praises and burn incenses to the Temples of the Gods, and refer to himself in the Divine person.

Constantine broke this custom. Constantine didn't offer divine praises to the Roman Gods, and he vehemently refused divine praises on his persona. Constantine was baptized into the Christian Church, and he made Christianity the main state religion, and he initiated laws that outlawed religious cults as well as forbade the practice of the 'pagan' religion of the past.

The effects of this change in religious policy forever changed the Roman Empire.

Christianity grew and blossomed throughout the empire. Churches were built in replace of temples, and the conversion of many peoples occured. The province of Hispanola (Spain), became christian, so did the province of Gaulia-Franconia (France) as well part of the province of Germanium (Germany), and Brittania (present day UK). The province of Egypt also became Christian (note the rise of coptic churches) etc.

With this act, the notion of Divine Right of the Roman Emperor was obliterated. No longer was the word of the Emperor the 'law' and 'absolute truth'.

As a result, revolts, and rebellion throughout the empire became a pragmatic reality.

As the Emperor no longer was a God. But a mere man.

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #68 on:** December 04, 2009, 09:28:41 AM »

Let us resuscitate this thread. As it is of personal interest to me.

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raldampong · « **Reply #69 on:** December 05, 2009, 09:46:35 PM »

Many believed that the new Europe is the new Roman Empire. For my belief the Roman Catholic Religion is the extension of the Roman Empire. Thanks Dong Bran.

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #70 on:** December 06, 2009, 12:26:00 AM »

I agree with you on that, Mr. Rald.
The Roman Empire, indeed, was the first conceptual parallel to the political construct that is the European Union. The European Union, like the Roman Empire, is composed of many states (nations) under governmental rule but owing allegiance to the EU. But together, as a community, pools its resources for the benefit of the entire Continent.

The Roman Empire, much like the European Union, functioned the sameway, to a lesser degree--but politically very similar. The Empire was composed of many provinces and territories that were annexed by the Roman Imperial Army. Every province had a center, a provincial capital and each province had Roman Governor that was selected and hand picked by the Emperor himself. Representing the persona of the Emperor and the authority vested in the Governor came from the SPQR (Senatus Populare Qae Romanum = The Senate of the People of Rome). Whose authority came from not only the Emperor--the Divine Being, the soul of the Empire, but also the political and massed authority that came from the Will of the People---through the Imperial Roman Senate.

Europe has not seen such stability and union since the days of Rome when most of the continent was ruled and governed by one power.

Napoleon, Hitler, Stalin etc did not even come close to the level of growth, maturity, jurisprudence, peace, superfluous growth that Rome contributed to Europe.

So therefore, one can say that there are some similarities between The Roman Empire and the European Union.

In my opinion, the only difference is the military animality of Rome. The EU, seems to implement and showcase a neutral geopolitical stance. Whereas Rome was a military animal, the world's then only super power, with a voracious appetite for war, conquest and growth through the means of power and subjugation of the enemy.

In the words of Emperor Augustus, "The Roman Eagle sees across the horizon, and her wings trembles the nations before her."

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #71 on:** December 06, 2009, 12:40:16 AM »

Many believed that the new Europe is the new Roman Empire. For my belief the Roman Catholic Religion is the extension of the Roman Empire. Thanks Dong Bran.

The Roman Catholic Church was the very power that defeated Pagan Rome.

It was the church, the very same church that was instructed, nurtured and preached by Paul and Peter the Apostles.

The same Church, whose martyrs were fed to the Lions and crucified en mass by the Roman Gladiatorial Games.

The Same Church, The Same Catholic Church, that was persecuted. But it was through the FAITH of the Church that led to the widespread conversion of the pagan Romans.

For the Church provided answers and faith to the Roman people, and provided consolation that the old roman religion could not even offer. The Church conquored the Roman paganism, and supplanted it with CHRISTIANITY.

The Roman Catholic Church was weak, but through its faith, it conquored and defeated the very power that was responsible for crucifying the Lord Jesus Christ on the Cross.

----

Isn't it beautiful?

Rome crucified Christ--because it was destined and prophesied.
His death was necessary for the redemption of all.
And in the end, the very power that crucified Christ and persecuted its believers...
was defeated and CONVERTED to CHRIST.

POWERFUL.
A LIVING MIRACLE.

As it is foretold in Scripture:

~2 Corinthians 12:10 Therefore I am well content with weaknesses, with insults, with distresses, with persecutions, with difficulties, for Christ's sake; for when I am weak, then I am strong.

The weak is exalted in Christ.

The Church is living testament to HIS promise.

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Vistabel · « **Reply #72 on:** December 23, 2009, 03:10:10 AM »

Nagpabunjag man gud ug Catholico si Emperor Constantine diha nag sugod ang pag collapse sa powerful Roman Empire.

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #73 on:** September 07, 2010, 09:24:07 AM »

The Roman Empire was already collapsing prior to Constantine's conversion to Christianity. Constantine's conversion was a public statement, that the 'Old Roman Virtues' that were affiliated with the old religion was now downcasted. Tho one can argue that the 'classic' Roman Empire ceased to exist when Christianity was promulgated as the state religion, one relates the Roman collapse , in the traditional sense, to its military defeat to he Vandals and the uncontrolled German attacks of the Empire's frontier until the latter razed the Eternal City of Rome to the ground in the 5th century AD.

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #74 on:** September 07, 2010, 09:25:57 AM »

Ah, you mean the Holy Roman Empire. That was later than the Classical Roman Empire. Think of it as a medieval version of the European Union.

Correct, Ben. Not to mention the main difference in the fact that the classic Roman Empire was Latin and ruled by Latin peoples of Italy. The latter Holy Roman Empire was Germanic. The essential difference that delineates the said two political entities: language & ethnicity.

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