Author Topic: Do you think the Philippines would have been better as an American State?  (Read 3608 times)

Lorenzo

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Provide your point of view. Defend it.

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chicogon

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Provide your point of view. Defend it.

A very sensitive issue. Too late for now, so I'll let it be... give the issue a rest hehehe...  ;)



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Quezon's most famous quote: "I prefer a government run like hell by Filipinos to a government run like heaven by Americans."

i'm along with this quote of President Manuel Luis Quezon.

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wolfpack823

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Quezon's most famous quote: "I prefer a government run like hell by Filipinos to a government run like heaven by Americans."

i'm along with this quote of President Manuel Luis Quezon.

And with due respect, it is happening... Sometimes I would like to say be careful what you wish for because it will transform into reality.

But, yes freedom is great, however, it is not served in a golden platter. We have to fight hard to deserve: the Philippines for the Filipinos.

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chicogon

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And with due respect, it is happening... Sometimes I would like to say be careful what you wish for because it will transform into reality.


Hehehehe... sometimes, the price of patriotism. Pero usahay maka pangutana pod ko... patriotism kaha tong motive or was it some vested interest? Just like our politicos now. Do they really care about the suffering majority?  ???


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wolfpack823

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Hehehehe... sometimes, the price of patriotism. Pero usahay maka pangutana pod ko... patriotism kaha tong motive or was it some vested interest? Just like our politicos now. Do they really care about the suffering majority?  ???


I will give you an honest answer. The political power is like opium, maka-addict. Ang mga beteranos og trapos, ang utok unsaon pag-pangawat sa kwarta sa gobyerno. Ang mga newbies or greenhorns ilang utok unsaon pag-daog sa sunod nga eleksyon.

Kitang mga katawhan Pilipino, nahimong kataw-anan sa kalibutan, kay bisan taas tag kinaadman mapugos og hugas og lubot sa mga dayuhan aron maka-suporta sa pamilya. 

Our government is taking away our dignity as a people, taking away our pride as intellectual race in Asia, pushing as to become slaves of foreign lands just to pedal the economy.

As I put it in: “ Tinawag ninyo kaming p**t, pero ano ang tawag sa sosyedad na naglikha sa aming ganito.”

That is really a sad reality. The leaders don't care.



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Lorenzo

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I will give you an honest answer. The political power is like opium, maka-addict. Ang mga beteranos og trapos, ang utok unsaon pag-pangawat sa kwarta sa gobyerno. Ang mga newbies or greenhorns ilang utok unsaon pag-daog sa sunod nga eleksyon.

Kitang mga katawhan Pilipino, nahimong kataw-anan sa kalibutan, kay bisan taas tag kinaadman mapugos og hugas og lubot sa mga dayuhan aron maka-suporta sa pamilya. 

Our government is taking away our dignity as a people, taking away our pride as intellectual race in Asia, pushing as to become slaves of foreign lands just to pedal the economy.

As I put it in: “ Tinawag ninyo kaming p**t, pero ano ang tawag sa sosyedad na naglikha sa aming ganito.”

That is really a sad reality. The leaders don't care.



Wisdom!


Dr. Jose P. Rizal, our beloved national hero, Father of the Republic, would smile upon you if he were alive today.

The memory of the great Rizal is disgraced by these neo-peninsulare elites who dare to use his name for self glory to promote their own clamor for change, when in the end, they support status quo edicts! There is no strengthening of the massa as what Rizal clamored for and reminded us, through his writings and self sacrifice!

Instead these peninsulare elites use us as fodder, as pawns in the game of national control. Media-politic.

They have no right to dare call on the name of Rizal. He would spurn them to the street if he were alive today; in fact he LOATHED the peninsulare class as well as the corruption of the friars within the church. He despised the landed aristocracy. Despised them.

It was the oligarchy that supported the friars in persuading the colonial government to have him executed. His idealism was to 'radical'.

Then , when the blood of Rizal was spent, used him as an idol to legitimize their role in government during the American Colonial Administration!!

Their audacity to play with Rizal. Audacity.

They are nothing but whores of society that prostitute the people for their own purpose and movement in society and maintenance of power.

 

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jas4

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Wisdom!


Dr. Jose P. Rizal, our beloved national hero, Father of the Republic, would smile upon you if he were alive today.

The memory of the great Rizal is disgraced by these neo-peninsulare elites who dare to use his name for self glory to promote their own clamor for change, when in the end, they support status quo edicts! There is no strengthening of the massa as what Rizal clamored for and reminded us, through his writings and self sacrifice!

Instead these peninsulare elites use us as fodder, as pawns in the game of national control. Media-politic.

They have no right to dare call on the name of Rizal. He would spurn them to the street if he were alive today; in fact he LOATHED the peninsulare class as well as the corruption of the friars within the church. He despised the landed aristocracy. Despised them.

It was the oligarchy that supported the friars in persuading the colonial government to have him executed. His idealism was to 'radical'.

Then , when the blood of Rizal was spent, used him as an idol to legitimize their role in government during the American Colonial Administration!!

Their audacity to play with Rizal. Audacity.

They are nothing but whores of society that prostitute the people for their own purpose and movement in society and maintenance of power.

 

I beg to disagree, and pagbutang ni Rizal sa pedistal as National hero is the main reason nganong ang Pilipinas gipangulunan ug mga elitista.  Remember, si Rizal usa sad ka elitista.

On topic, ang ka hambugero sa Pinoy nga kamao siya modala sa atong nasud maoy hinungdan sa pagkaut-ot sa Pilipinas.

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hangtud dili maundang ang pagpanaugdaug ug pagtamak sa katungod sa atong mga ultimong mamumuo, dili mapakgang ang reklamo batok sa pagpanaugdaug nga kapitalista ug abusadong naglingkod sa atong gobyerno! unsa pa man inyong gipaabot?

wolfpack823

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I beg to disagree, and pagbutang ni Rizal sa pedistal as National hero is the main reason nganong ang Pilipinas gipangulunan ug mga elitista.  Remember, si Rizal usa sad ka elitista.

On topic, ang ka hambugero sa Pinoy nga kamao siya modala sa atong nasud maoy hinungdan sa pagkaut-ot sa Pilipinas.

Aduna ka ponto niana, kay gani naa man pangutana kinsa ang nag-butang kang Jose Rizal isip national hero. Matod pa sa diskusyon, si Jose Rizal usa ka propagandista og supak sa guera. Si Andres Bonifacio, para sa uban mao ang tinuod nga bayani tungod kay siya gayod ang nanguna aron mabontog ang mga dayuhan.

Anyway on the second par, I agree 100%.

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Vistabel

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Aduna ka ponto niana, kay gani naa man pangutana kinsa ang nag-butang kang Jose Rizal isip national hero. Matod pa sa diskusyon, si Jose Rizal usa ka propagandista og supak sa guera. Si Andres Bonifacio, para sa uban mao ang tinuod nga bayani tungod kay siya gayod ang nanguna aron mabontog ang mga dayuhan.

Anyway on the second par, I agree 100%.

for both you i don't agree of your ideas. Nindot ba para ninyo nga nasa sarili mong lupain nabubuhay unya nag bubuhis ka ug gimando-an ka sa mga dayuhan. Being Inabangnon i always support Francisco Dagohoy Movement to oppose any form foreign intervention here in our country.

I idolize the ideology of Tausog Tribe where datu Lapu-lapu was belonged.     

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Lorenzo

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I beg to disagree, and pagbutang ni Rizal sa pedistal as National hero is the main reason nganong ang Pilipinas gipangulunan ug mga elitista.  Remember, si Rizal usa sad ka elitista.

On topic, ang ka hambugero sa Pinoy nga kamao siya modala sa atong nasud maoy hinungdan sa pagkaut-ot sa Pilipinas.

I beg to disagree, Rizal was not a member of the elite nor was he member of the landed aristocracy of the day, his father was a Chinese merchant, and his mother was a Filipina; Rizal, himself, belonged to the growing intelligentsia movement, however he recognized his own Indio roots, as he says so in his writings, most notably in "El Filibusterismo", and in his many essays in La Solidaridad as well as in his own personal letters. Rizal was actually target of racial slander in his studies in medicine in Manila, of which, was the sole reason for him to transfer and study abroad in Madrid, Spain; at the protest of his parents.

Additionally, Rizal's Family was subject to Peninsulare pretensions when his own mother was subject to trial for false accusations of trying to poison a sister in law, when in reality, the woman charged her was the one that ran away from husband, eloping with a Spanish Civil Guard. Rizal's mother underwent torment from her accusors for almost 2.5 years before she was finally acquitted by the Supreme Court (composed of elitist peninsulares and Spaniards). The effects of this trial affected Rizal thoroughly and personally was an injustice he felt was done to his mother, being looked down upon by elitist members on basis of her skin and upbringing.

Rizal, throughout his life and his works, if you read his letters and journals, detested 2 pillars in society:
1. The landed friars --namely those who were openly abusing their powers
2. Aristocratic landed elites


~~

It is important that we separate Rizal and men in the same league with him from the landed elites. Rizal, for example, came from a working class merchant Chinese-Filipino family; and at that time, being Chinese or having any semblance of Chinese blood was considered filthy by the Spanish social order where we have the following (Spaniard > Spanish Mestizo > Indo > Chinese-Filipino >  Chinese > Negro >Dog). Rizal, contrary to popular opinion, did not use his family's wealth to augment his studies in Spain after his graduation from Universidad Central de Madrid , rather after his graduation, worked as a physician an used his own income to fund his specialization in opthalmology in Heidelburg, Germany and later specialization in surgery in Paris, France.

It was Rizal's witt, his literary style and his social skill that allowed him to meet so many people in different social circles in Europe, where the level of racism was not as pragmatic and hostile as seen in the Philippines, which, in his writings was "Feudal and Barbaric". In Europe, Rizal found it more liberating, where the concepts of Egalitarianism, Confraternity and Liberty was accepted and generally observed; especially during the late 19th century where the absolutist monarchies were just recently replaced for more humanitarian-universalist republican forms of government (post-Basque Spain), (Post-Napoleonic France) etc.

Rizal's writings represented change because he talked about personal awakenings, power of the masses, universal and unalienable human rights. All of this threatened the power control of the landed aristocracy, and its long-time ally, the landed Friars who presumed not only the religious but social order of the entire Archipelago.

Rizal was not anti-religion, not anti-catholic faith, but rather, he was against the corruption of many of its members that were clearly abusing their role and power; against the subserviance of the Filipino people, namely the masses, to the elite. He was against it since he clearly mentions how backwards Filipinas was as compared to Spain; how the umbilical bond between Spain and the Philippines was tangled, how the colony was runned and how policies that Spain implemented was not being followed nor upheld, which would later be enforced in the late 19th century, but too late since pro-revolutionary thought was already planted.

I find it hypocritical how the same Peninsulare Landed Elite that condemned Rizal , watched as he was sentenced to death in Dapitan, would call him a national hero only after he was dead. It was only after Bonifacio , who was a Spanish Mestizo (but of middle class decent) who commanded the KKK called him as a national hero and used him as a rallying force for his fellow KKK members. When Bonifacio was sentenced to death by Aguinaldo and members of Malolos Republic (who were Landed Elites) , they effectively seized power from Bonifacio and kept the rallying symbol of the people: Jose Rizal. They know that Rizal's death touched the sympathetic hearts of the masses, so,..them being wise utilized tactical strategem: ---Seize the source of Power.

In this case, it was Rizal. The thought of Rizal.

This is an example of usery. To benefit an end, when in reality, in the beginning, the landed elite that now supported and embelished Rizal's name and memory, were the ones responsible for his death. In my opinion, the landed elites are whores who do not have the right to glorify Rizal's name and blood. It was they who were directly responsible for his death; and it was they...who retain the status quo. Over a century after the martyr Rizal was killed; when those Spanish bullets penetrated his precious body and blood...



Thanks.,
Lorenzo

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wolfpack823

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f
for both you i don't agree of your ideas. Nindot ba para ninyo nga nasa sarili mong lupain nabubuhay unya nag bubuhis ka ug gimando-an ka sa mga dayuhan. Being Inabangnon i always support Francisco Dagohoy Movement to oppose any form foreign intervention here in our country.

I idolize the ideology of Tausog Tribe where datu Lapu-lapu was belonged.    

That was what happened in the history. Forgive me; my recollections of history are limited at this point in time. The fact presented was the debate about Rizal being a national hero. I am very proud of Francisco Dagohoy, count me with that.

Honestly, our nation failed to develop leaders that take care of the interests of the people. The poverty is like a terminal cancer, the Filipino people survive because of the money the OFW’s and people living abroad send to their families. That serves as chemotherapy; a temporary relief of the pains, but the disease continues to spread.

Let us go back to history and we need to identify who failed us. As a nation, how many people gave their lives for freedom? Too many, and yet look at us now. What happened to the ideals and principles that our fathers fought for? I remembered Ninoy Aquino at the tarmac said, “Filipinos are worth dying for.”  Are we really? My answer is YES, because we have no choice, that is our given identity.














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Lorenzo

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Additionally,

When the United States defeated the Spaniards in 1898, the Americans , upon entering the Philippines, noticed the social order system that was set in place. President Howard Taft,  who then was an acting Civilian Governor-General of the Philippines, saw the squalor of the people and was galvanized how the Roman Catholic Church owned so much of the land of the country. So adamant was he that he went to the American Congress and asked them to buy the land owned by the Catholic Church; Congress agreed and Taft personally went to Rome to talk with Pope Leo XIII , buying the land in the amount of $7 million. Then selling it to Filipinos for cheap; which allowed the American Administration in the Philippines under Taft to be come rather popular, by both Filipinos and Americans, of course after the cessation of the Philippine-American War.

Taft and fellow educated civil workers saw how popular Rizal was in the schools. American Yellow Journalism took its effect by publishing the evils of the Spanish regime, and glorified Rizal as the 'Brave Malay' who stood against the Spanish System.

Seeing this, the Landed Aristocracy, took advantage of the situation by supporting the American system; since it was another foreign power's policy. They, in other words, wanted the same piece of the pie.

Its the way of politics, friend, whenever it is beneficial for one party or one governing or controlling body, it will support something even if it was originally against it. For the means of maintenance of power. Their Power. Status Quo.



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Lorenzo

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That was what happened in the history. Forgive me; my recollections of history are limited at this point in time. The fact presented was the debate about Rizal being a national hero. I am very proud of Francisco Dagohoy, count me with that.

Honestly, our nation failed to develop leaders that take care of the interests of the people. The poverty is like a terminal cancer, the Filipino people survive because of the money the OFW’s and people living abroad send to their families. That serves as chemotherapy; a temporary relief of the pains, but the disease continues to spread.

Let us go back to history and we need to identify who failed us. As a nation, how many people gave their lives for freedom? Too many, and yet look at us now. What happened to the ideals and principles that our fathers fought for? I remembered Ninoy Aquino at the tarmac said, “Filipinos are worth dying for.”  Are we really? My answer is YES, because we have no choice, that is our given identity.














Pleasure is mine to be in the same discussion thread with you, Wolf. :)

Thank you also for sharing your point of view of Francisco Dagohoy. The longest-standing open rebellion in the entire Philippines.
It is testament to the Bolanon-Fighting Spirit.

 :)

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islander

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and i thought this thread is about opinions on whether the philippines would have been better as an american state!  hey, bro enz, why is this being hijacked by rizal and his kind?

as for the topic at hand, here's my 2-cents' worth:  would have been better at what?  materially, morally, politically, spiritually?  frankly, there's no telling if any country would have been better if it were not independent.  it's like saying that a cat would have been better if it were a dog. 

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Lorenzo

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That was what happened in the history. Forgive me; my recollections of history are limited at this point in time. The fact presented was the debate about Rizal being a national hero. I am very proud of Francisco Dagohoy, count me with that.

Honestly, our nation failed to develop leaders that take care of the interests of the people. The poverty is like a terminal cancer, the Filipino people survive because of the money the OFW’s and people living abroad send to their families. That serves as chemotherapy; a temporary relief of the pains, but the disease continues to spread.

Let us go back to history and we need to identify who failed us. As a nation, how many people gave their lives for freedom? Too many, and yet look at us now. What happened to the ideals and principles that our fathers fought for? I remembered Ninoy Aquino at the tarmac said, “Filipinos are worth dying for.”  Are we really? My answer is YES, because we have no choice, that is our given identity.














For sure, Wolf, you hit the mark. The landed elites that used to control the government still control the country. Either they are in government or they are in command of Media-Politic. Whoever controls media in the Philippines, controls the entire country. It is media that is the only source of information to the many OFWs, emits shows and programs that facilitate OFWs return etc etc. I mean, if we analyze the situation, you and I and all the OFWs abroad are but pawns in this game. Pawns.

The large media corporations such as ABS-CBN, GMA, large corporations like Ayala Bank, Ayala Land Corp, etc are the very same people, same landed aristocracy that used to control the country over 100 year ago. They still control it.

The OFW program, of which, 10+ million Filipinos are abroad because of it, was a product of Marcos and his colleagues (many of whim were part of the landed aristocracy). How else to prevent open rebellion and to guarantee and economic lifeline for the country, and thus, effectively seal and consolidate the power of the landed elite?

Answer: Sending the masses abroad, thereby reducing congestion, satiating the masses' need for consumer goods. Now how do they provide for the masses and the OFWs, by making trivial games, tv shows, drama, etc etc. It works.

And in the end, Tito Franki, and Tita Anelia are still abroad working in Europe or in America as nurses, as engineers, construction workers, domestic laborers etc. The masses are satiated, and the landed elite retain power. Secure it.

Its strategy. A chess game, so to say.





Lorenzo.

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Lorenzo

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and i thought this thread is about opinions on whether the philippines would have been better as an american state!  hey, bro enz, why is this being hijacked by rizal and his kind?

as for the topic at hand, here's my 2-cents' worth:  would have been better at what?  materially, morally, politically, spiritually?  frankly, there's no telling if any country would have been better if it were not independent.  it's like saying that a cat would have been better if it were a dog. 

Thanks for your two cents. Rizal is indirectly linked to the topic. Rizal was used by the peninsulare class, the American colonial administration.

A milking cow, so to say.

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islander

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Thanks for your two cents. Rizal is indirectly linked to the topic. Rizal was used by the peninsulare class, the American colonial administration.

A milking cow, so to say.

and what has it got to do with the philippines being hypothetically an american state?

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Lorenzo

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and what has it got to do with the philippines being hypothetically an american state?

Thats up to you to discuss about. Talk. Take the floor.

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islander

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Thats up to you to discuss about. Talk. Take the floor.

useless.  that's my floor.

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Lorenzo

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jas4

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Additionally,

When the United States defeated the Spaniards in 1898, the Americans , upon entering the Philippines, noticed the social order system that was set in place. President Howard Taft,  who then was an acting Civilian Governor-General of the Philippines, saw the squalor of the people and was galvanized how the Roman Catholic Church owned so much of the land of the country. So adamant was he that he went to the American Congress and asked them to buy the land owned by the Catholic Church; Congress agreed and Taft personally went to Rome to talk with Pope Leo XIII , buying the land in the amount of $7 million. Then selling it to Filipinos for cheap; which allowed the American Administration in the Philippines under Taft to be come rather popular, by both Filipinos and Americans, of course after the cessation of the Philippine-American War.

Taft and fellow educated civil workers saw how popular Rizal was in the schools. American Yellow Journalism took its effect by publishing the evils of the Spanish regime, and glorified Rizal as the 'Brave Malay' who stood against the Spanish System.

Seeing this, the Landed Aristocracy, took advantage of the situation by supporting the American system; since it was another foreign power's policy. They, in other words, wanted the same piece of the pie.

Its the way of politics, friend, whenever it is beneficial for one party or one governing or controlling body, it will support something even if it was originally against it. For the means of maintenance of power. Their Power. Status Quo.



US didn't defeat Spain in terms of Philippines.  That is a make believe scenario.  The Philippines was sold to US by the Spaniards.



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jas4

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and i thought this thread is about opinions on whether the philippines would have been better as an american state!  hey, bro enz, why is this being hijacked by rizal and his kind?

as for the topic at hand, here's my 2-cents' worth:  would have been better at what?  materially, morally, politically, spiritually?  frankly, there's no telling if any country would have been better if it were not independent.  it's like saying that a cat would have been better if it were a dog. 

No worries sir.  I still find time to stay on topic unlike some other people who tell tales based on fairy stories who made our ancestors, even us, believed.

I do agree agree with what you are saying.  But, I am tackling our leaders before nga nagpabilib.  Same ra gihapon karon.  As if they know how to do it yet they always fail.  Ang nakaparat is ang kaalaut is padulong sa masa ug wala nila.  Same sa mga nanghitabo sa mga karaan. 

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US didn't defeat Spain in terms of Philippines.  That is a make believe scenario.  The Philippines was sold to US by the Spaniards.


Was treaty was that? Paris or Versailles?


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jas4

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Was treaty was that? Paris or Versailles?


Treaty of Paris pads.

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Lorenzo

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US didn't defeat Spain in terms of Philippines.  That is a make believe scenario.  The Philippines was sold to US by the Spaniards.



The Battle of Manila Bay effectively destroyed the Spanish Pacific Fleet. Thus effectively inhibiting Spain's ability to defend its positions in the entire archipelago. With Spanish garrisons overrun in most of Visayas, Mindanao and the out-lands of Luzon, the only major Spanish presence was in Manila. I suggest you read more into the active campaigns of Emilio Aguinaldo and generals such as Gregorio Del Pilar (Hero of Tirad Pass) , who were effective in fighting the Spanish, and later, the Americans during the Revolutionary War.

Spain surrendered the keys of Manila to the United States, namely because the Spanish refused to surrendered the city to Aguinaldo's forces for fear of quartering. Filipino Revolutionary Soldiers did not give quarter to Spanish soldiers, rather, emaciated them by shear number. The Battle of Baler, is an example, where the Spanish fought to the very end, namely, because the Filipino Revolutionary Army's failure to give quarter.

Spanish soldiers surrendered to the United States because they were, in paper, at war with the United States in regards to the loss of the USS Maine off the coast of Cuba. The Philippine question merely was an escalation of the ware theater to the pacific. The United States Navy, was sent to the pacific to effectively cut off Spanish naval supply, that and to support Aguinaldo's rebel army. Upholding the notion of "My enemy's enemy is my friend." Additionally, the Spanish found it more honorable to loose a war to a western power than to loose the Philippines to the native population by revolution; this issue is sensitive for the Spaniards, since it lost its American possessions in the early 19th century during the Peninsular War.

After the United States stormed Manila, the Spanish Governor General gave Manila to the United States. The United States, at that time, was in internal rift; as half of the country was pro-imperialism, half was isolationist. The Philippine Question was a subject of many a debate within the halls of Congress, if I may add. American President McKinley, himself, was assassinated because of his pro-imperialist agenda regarding the Philippines , Cuba, Puerto Rico and Guam.

The United States, like most western nations, dreamed of a global sea-faring empire. The victory over Spain in Cuba, Guam, as well as in the Philippines, namely in the Battle of Manila Bay, effectively positioned the United States as a rising world power. The ascension of the United States into the world order was officiated with the signing of the Paris Peace Treaty, where Spain offered to sell the Philippines to the United States for $20 Million. The United States accepted it, knowing that if it rejected the proposal, and left the Philippines to itself, it knew that the Germans (stationed in the Marianas) and the Japanese (a growing military force in the region) or the British (stationed in the Malaccas) or the French (controlling French Indochina) would have taken over the former-Spanish Colony.

In reiteration, the United States defeated the Spanish Army in Cuba, with help, that is, from the Cuban Revolutionary Army. Puerto Rico was occupied fairly peacefully, and the Philippines was merely an extension to the war theater. The United States Navy decisively defeated the Spanish Pacific Fleet in Manila Bay. When the Spanish garrison surrendered Manila to the United States, the United States, effectively took control of the colony, despite the open rebellion that stood. The financial exchanges and the signing of the Paris Peace Treaty merely officialized the end of hostilities and transfer of power.

The mandate of this treaty was the independence of Cuba from Spanish control; Puerto Rico, and Guam were to be administered by the United States as a territory and the Philippines (which had a substantial population) was sold to the United States for a meager $20 Million. This caused such an uproar for many members of the American Anti-Imperialist League, most notably, Andrew Carnegie (a captain of industry), who offered $20 Million to keep the Philippines independent; opposing the American ascendancy in the Philippines because, the Filipinos, unlike the Hawaiians, the Puerto Ricans and Guamanians, fought for independence.


The intricacies of the war and the political discourse involving the United States, Spain and the Philippines, is not as simplistic as you put it. Rather, it was one that was inevitable, considering the age that it took place--Namely, during the Age of European Imperialism.



Thanks,
Lorenzo.



PS. Some books that I highly recommend: Vestiges of War: The Philippine-American War and the Aftermath of an Imperial Dream , A War of Frontier and Empire: The Philippine-American War, 1899-1902, The War with Spain in 1898, On Empire.


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Was treaty was that? Paris or Versailles?


Treaty of Paris, Father.

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