Author Topic: A question for the Physicists in Tubag Bohol: Quantum Mechanics and Gravity  (Read 1588 times)

Lorenzo

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How is it that quantum mechanics and gravity work together when the theory behind such principles are at odds with each other?

Please explain.

:)

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Lorenzo

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The theories of general relativity and quantum mechanics manifests itself in our world, however, why is it that these equations do not equal or explain each other? Yet it does exist. What holds these two theories together ?



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hubag bohol

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Hmm, apparently, further experiments and more data are needed to yoke these concepts together...

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Lorenzo

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When I took physics in college, these two theories do not match each other, and if one tries to combine the equations, we get a set of data points to infinity, it does not add up. yet, for us in the natural world, theory of general relativity exists because of the presence of gravity. and quantum physics also is present. just interesting what makes everything hold. that is where a lot of physicists right now are trying to grapple.



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Lorenzo

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i actually had a conversation with a professor of mine, who is also an active catholic. when we talked outside of class, i asked him frankly, "professor S, why is it that these two theories which are considered true in the scientific community, unable to match with each other? If they do not match, why is it that the world as we know it exist as it is?"

he smiled at me and said to me, "Lorenzo, you will find your answer in Colossians 1:17"



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Lorenzo

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For in HIM all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through HIM and for HIM.  He is before all things, and in HIM  all things hold together.

Colossians 1: 15-17

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Republic Act 8485 (Animal Welfare Act of 1998, Philippines), as amended and strengthened by House  Bill 6893 of 2013--- violation means a maximum of P250,000 fine with a corresponding three-year jail term and a minimum of P30,000 fine and six months imprisonment

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Lorenzo

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Q: How/Why are Quantum Mechanics and Relativity incompatible?


Physicist: Quantum Mechanics (QM) and relativity are both 100% accurate, so far as we have been able to measure (and our measurements are really, really good).  The incompatibility shows up when both QM effects and relativistic effects are large enough to be detected and then disagree.

Relativity comes in two flavors: special and general.  Special relativity describes how time and distance are affected by movement (especially fast movement), and it replaces Newtonian mechanics, which is only accurate at low speeds.  Einstein came up with it by looking at the mathematical repercussions of the fact that all of physics works the same way, independent of movement (constant speed is the same as no speed).  Special relativity has been exhaustively tested (relativistic effects have been verified all the way down to walking speed), and works so perfectly that it is now held up as the yardstick against which all new theories are tested.  In fact, QM would make grossly inaccurate predictions if Dirac hadn’t shown up and tied QM together with special relativity to create “relativistic QM”.

General relativity, on the other hand, describes the stretching and bending of space and time by gravity.  Einstein came up with it when he thought about what the universe would be like if inertial and gravitational acceleration were the same (turns out they are).  By the way: gravitational acceleration is what pushes you toward the ground, and inertial acceleration is what pushes you back into the car seat when you step on the gas.  It’s general relativity that causes the problems.  Here’s two (of a possible untold many):

1) Smooth vs. Chunky: General relativity needs space to be “smooth”, or at the very least continuous.  So if you have two points side by side, then no matter how close you bring them together you can still tell which one is on the right or left.  Quantum mechanically you have to deal with position uncertainty.  At very small scales you can’t tell which is right or left.  In addition (as the name implies) QM requires everything to be “quantized”, or show up in discrete pieces.  You see this clearly with atoms, photons, and even phonons (which is quantized sound!  How awesome is that!?).  Less clear is the quantization of space, which would require space to be “chopped up”.  This choppiness will never be directly measured.  The predicted “chunky scale” should be no large than 10-35 m.  For comparison, a hydrogen atom is about a million, million, million, million times larger (10-24).

2) The Information Paradox: According to general relativity when stuff falls into a blackhole everything about it’s existence (with the exception of mass, charge, and momentum) is completely erased.  That doesn’t sound so bad.  We tend to think of blackholes as being like galactic garbage disposals.  However, if all the information about something is destroyed, then you lose time-reversibility.  Time-reversal is the idea that if you run time backwards, all the basic physical laws of the universe continue to work the same.  More obscurely, you can predict the future based on what you know now, and time reversal means that you can derive what happened in the past as well.  QM requires that time-reversibility (or “unitarity”, to a professional) holds.  So QM requires that blackholes cannot destroy information.  One way around this is amazingly complicated entanglement between all of the in-falling matter, and all of the Hawking Radiation that comes out later.  Again, we’ll never be able to measure this.  To get results we would have to exactly measure at least half of all of the photons generated by Hawking radiation over the essentially infinite life time of the blackhole (every blackhole that exists today will be around long, long after the heat death of the universe).



http://www.askamathematician.com/2009/12/q-howwhy-are-quantum-mechanics-and-relativity-incompatible/

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Lorenzo

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Q: How/Why are Quantum Mechanics and Relativity incompatible?


Physicist: Quantum Mechanics (QM) and relativity are both 100% accurate, so far as we have been able to measure (and our measurements are really, really good).  The incompatibility shows up when both QM effects and relativistic effects are large enough to be detected and then disagree.

Relativity comes in two flavors: special and general.  Special relativity describes how time and distance are affected by movement (especially fast movement), and it replaces Newtonian mechanics, which is only accurate at low speeds.  Einstein came up with it by looking at the mathematical repercussions of the fact that all of physics works the same way, independent of movement (constant speed is the same as no speed).  Special relativity has been exhaustively tested (relativistic effects have been verified all the way down to walking speed), and works so perfectly that it is now held up as the yardstick against which all new theories are tested.  In fact, QM would make grossly inaccurate predictions if Dirac hadn’t shown up and tied QM together with special relativity to create “relativistic QM”.

General relativity, on the other hand, describes the stretching and bending of space and time by gravity.  Einstein came up with it when he thought about what the universe would be like if inertial and gravitational acceleration were the same (turns out they are).  By the way: gravitational acceleration is what pushes you toward the ground, and inertial acceleration is what pushes you back into the car seat when you step on the gas.  It’s general relativity that causes the problems.  Here’s two (of a possible untold many):

1) Smooth vs. Chunky: General relativity needs space to be “smooth”, or at the very least continuous.  So if you have two points side by side, then no matter how close you bring them together you can still tell which one is on the right or left.  Quantum mechanically you have to deal with position uncertainty.  At very small scales you can’t tell which is right or left.  In addition (as the name implies) QM requires everything to be “quantized”, or show up in discrete pieces.  You see this clearly with atoms, photons, and even phonons (which is quantized sound!  How awesome is that!?).  Less clear is the quantization of space, which would require space to be “chopped up”.  This choppiness will never be directly measured.  The predicted “chunky scale” should be no large than 10-35 m.  For comparison, a hydrogen atom is about a million, million, million, million times larger (10-24).

2) The Information Paradox: According to general relativity when stuff falls into a blackhole everything about it’s existence (with the exception of mass, charge, and momentum) is completely erased.  That doesn’t sound so bad.  We tend to think of blackholes as being like galactic garbage disposals.  However, if all the information about something is destroyed, then you lose time-reversibility.  Time-reversal is the idea that if you run time backwards, all the basic physical laws of the universe continue to work the same.  More obscurely, you can predict the future based on what you know now, and time reversal means that you can derive what happened in the past as well.  QM requires that time-reversibility (or “unitarity”, to a professional) holds.  So QM requires that blackholes cannot destroy information.  One way around this is amazingly complicated entanglement between all of the in-falling matter, and all of the Hawking Radiation that comes out later.  Again, we’ll never be able to measure this.  To get results we would have to exactly measure at least half of all of the photons generated by Hawking radiation over the essentially infinite life time of the blackhole (every blackhole that exists today will be around long, long after the heat death of the universe).



http://www.askamathematician.com/2009/12/q-howwhy-are-quantum-mechanics-and-relativity-incompatible/

It is impossible to find it, because, black holes apparently exist in a particular state where there is infinite growth and infinite beginning, yet at the same time, does not exist in the sense of universal disposition. It is a physicist's nightmare, and it also destroys Einstein's Theory of General Relativity. Even new theories such as quantum chromodynamics cannot explain it! It cannot be proven to exist, yet it does exist. How is that? Science cannot explain it, and all of the 'great' theories, including TGR (Theory of General Relativity) does not even hold true in regards to Black Holes. Interesting eh? :)

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Lorenzo

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In theory, and in paper, quantum mechanics exists and is true; in theory and in paper, theory of general relativity holds true, however, these two theories do not compliment each other in paper. Yet, in the natural world, they do. But we cannot explain how they do. Isn't it amazing? Even to this day, astrophysicists, and nuclear physicists are incapable of explaining how it works.

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hubag bohol

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I don't find it amazing at all. There is nothing amazing about the limits of human knowledge.

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Lorenzo

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It's interesting how limited man's understanding of the cosmos, and how 'unsure' we really are. In the field of medicine, there are also some concepts that physicians term as "idiopathic" , which means "of unknown origin, reason". An example would be that every human embryo's embryonc heart begins to beat at the end of the 4th week of conception. As a physician, I and my colleagues were "taught" that the heart begins forming immediately after conception , and that the heart begins to beat at the end of the 4th week , yet, we do not know why this happens. We know the dates when it begins to beat, what the vital signs are and the specific enzymes that are used to analyze proper development, however, we do not know WHY, the heart begins to beat at the end of 4th week. It is just termed "idiopathic".


the heart begins to beat in this 5 week old embryo

It really is amazing how uncertain we really are, even in the scientific community and medical community, on supposed scientific truth. And what you say, Bai Hubag, is very true to the core. I believe that man, in all of his abilities, will never really completely understand everything there is to know.



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Lorenzo

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Forgive me all if I digress from the topic question, however, I would like to make another point that is rather unique in medicine. In medicine, as a medical clinician, we are trained in ACLS (advanced cardiac life support) procedure. ACLS procedure is that if a patient undergoes a code blue (the patient experiences syncope, and the EKG monitor reveals a lack of a regular sinus rhythm and that of a ventricular tachycardia, ventricular fibrillation, or asystole) the following procedures are supposed to be initiated immediately:


1. Prepare the patient so that there are central, or peripheral IV lines available
2. administer a bolus of EPINEPHRINE , which will excite the myocardiocytes
3. administer DEFIBRILLATION , and a 5 cycles of CPR
4. observe the EKG machine if regular sinus is recovered

5. If not, continue the procedure for 5-10 minutes.
6. Consider ceasing resuscitative efforts after 10 minutes.



----

I have been in the ER floor assisting in the treating of a patient who coded on us. The team proceded with proper ACLS procedure and after 10 minutes of trial, the attending M.D decided to stop procedure and call the time of death. Myself and another medical intern protested and asked if we could continue on for another 2 cycles. He agreed. Yet he did not expect any positive results because the theory was that after 5 minutes of no heart activity, patient is going to be brain dead because after 5 minutes without oxygenated blood to the brain, the brain starts to undergoe necrosis.

After 3 cycles, the patient was revived. I remember it because I remember shouting, "Clear". On that last cycle, his ekg monitor showed a beautiful revival of sinus rhythm. I almost cried when I saw the p wave, qrs complex, and the t-wave.

We revived that man after almost 13 minutes of procedure. Had we not asked for more time, he would have been dead. It goes to show you that nothing is ever sure.



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