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glacier_71

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Are You Atheist?
« on: March 02, 2009, 09:02:23 AM »
Atheist Bus Ads, Rejected In Several Canadian cities, Set To roll out In Calgary

By Bill Graveland, The Canadian Press
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CALGARY - The debate over whether they should be allowed has been settled. Now, the battle to influence the minds of the public will begin as a series of atheist bus ads is set to roll out in Calgary Monday.

The ad campaign, paid for by the Freethought Association of Canada, features ads reading: "There is probably no God. Now stop worrying and enjoy your life."

A similar campaign generated controversy and anger in the United Kingdom and Australia and several Canadian cities have rejected the ads including Halifax, Vancouver, Victoria, Kelowna, B.C., London, Ont., and Ottawa.

Only Toronto and Calgary - the bastion of conservatism and the land of cowboys, oil wells and rodeos - are allowing the atheists to get their message out on the side of city buses.

"Possibly the sort of red-neck reputation and the enthusiasm for free speech aren't entirely incompatible," chuckled Janet Keeping, president of the Sheldon Chumir Foundation for Ethics in Leadership, a non-profit organization that looks at activities involving human rights and free speech across the country.

"You could say that standing up for free speech is completely consistent with protecting fundamental values of our system," said Keeping. "The ads are pretty mild stuff. Some of the other jurisdictions are just ready to run roughshod over fundamental freedoms like freedom of speech."

Not everyone sees the bus ads as a threat.

The United Church of Canada launched its own tongue-in-cheek campaign which includes the message: "There's probably a God. Now stop worrying and enjoy your life."

But others say it's no laughing matter.

The Islamic Supreme Council of Canada is ready to buy its own bus ads promoting an all-faith approach to religion.

"We know that we live in a free society where people have the right to express themselves, but this is a serious debate - this is not a joke and people have strong feelings," said Imam Syed Sohawardy.

"This is a very serious issue. We see this as a threat toward religion - not Islam, but all faiths."

Calgary's Roman Catholic Bishop Fred Henry has also expressed his concern about the atheist campaign and had pondered buying his own controversial ads promoting positions such as pro-life.

"I think that we already pay enough by way of taxes and user fees to support Calgary Transit - my money will go to house the homeless," he said. "But the principle has been established and should we decided to aggressively promote the right to life issue, they won't have ground to stand on."

Ron Collins, with Calgary Transit, said there will be six buses carrying the Freethought Association message for one month. He said the controversy seemed to have died down in recent weeks.

"I don't think there's as much attention being paid as there was at the start of this," he said. "We're following the Canadian Code of Advertising Standards and if it meets the code, it's allowed and this meets the criteria."

Keeping said she was a bit shocked at the passion the debate generated and had expected most Canadians to be a little more open minded.

"We seem to have cultivated this view that we all have the right not to be offended," she said. "That we all have the right never to be exposed to things that might challenge what we might think is proper and true and good.

"I can understand public concern when it comes to Criminal Code stuff, when it comes to advocating violence, advocacy of hatred," Keeping said.

"There is nothing about these bus ads that comes even close."

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grazie7y

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Re: Are You Athiest?
« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2009, 10:19:02 AM »
I am no way an atheist.  I'd like to believe I respect all people, even people who may have different beliefs as mine, but I don't want people to pester me on their beliefs or the lack of it. 

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glacier_71

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Re: Are You Athiest?
« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2009, 08:28:58 PM »
i have no problem if these people would want to go public of what they "believe". but i don't think using common public spaces is appropriate or fair for those who might feel offended by it.

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Re: Are You Athiest?
« Reply #3 on: March 02, 2009, 10:55:54 PM »
Exactly, glace! 

Speaking of atheist, have you heard about this guy Michael Newdow?  He is a smart guy and an atheist.  Prior to the inauguration of Obama, he again resurfaced in the media to protest about Obama saying the line "... so help me God!"  Eh, maayo'g sya'y mosulti ngano gabut-an man nya unsay isulti ni Obama.  If he becomes president then he may not say that but why would he enforce on other people his choice of not believing God.   ::)

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Re: Are You Athiest?
« Reply #4 on: March 02, 2009, 11:13:22 PM »
Exactly, glace! 

Speaking of atheist, have you heard about this guy Michael Newdow?  He is a smart guy and an atheist.  Prior to the inauguration of Obama, he again resurfaced in the media to protest about Obama saying the line "... so help me God!"  Eh, maayo'g sya'y mosulti ngano gabut-an man nya unsay isulti ni Obama.  If he becomes president then he may not say that but why would he enforce on other people his choice of not believing God.   ::)

this makes me annoyed. they have the tendency to rob other's expression of belief, which is for me ironic in a sense because it's as our right as theirs. we don't mind them not believing or subscribing to any, and certainly respect their way of expressing it.

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ayessa

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Re: Are You Athiest?
« Reply #5 on: March 02, 2009, 11:40:00 PM »
I went to mass yesterday which is one thing I do not often do since I studied in Germany.  My religion, my Christ give me some directions and he spoke to me through the Gospels.

Christ give me hope and strenght to walk on the rocky road of life.  I do not know how is that with atheist.



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Re: Are You Athiest?
« Reply #6 on: March 02, 2009, 11:46:57 PM »
I went to mass yesterday which is one thing I do not often do since I studied in Germany.  My religion, my Christ give me some directions and he spoke to me through the Gospels.

Christ give me hope and strength to walk on the rocky road of life.  I do not know how is that with atheist.



God bless your heart, Ayessa!  Touching kaayo imong gi ingon! 

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ms da binsi

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Re: Are You Athiest?
« Reply #7 on: March 03, 2009, 12:25:12 AM »
Atheist or religious, it's one's choice! pero kanang mag allure ka ug tawo to believe or join you, i must admit i really dislike!

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ayessa

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Re: Are You Athiest?
« Reply #8 on: March 03, 2009, 12:34:49 AM »
depende man gud na sa approach bell. ang mga catholic, naa silay implied mission on evangelization.  ang uban radical kaayo , uban gani eratic unya conservative.. didto nagka problema kay ang impact mura man ug namugos.

ecumenism dapat. meaning, we consider the existing culture and belief para mas dali ang acceptability.

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Lorenzo

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Re: Are You Athiest?
« Reply #9 on: March 03, 2009, 06:28:09 AM »
Ako, I am open to conversation with different christian members or even aethiests. I like to hear their different points of view and interpretation on things, but when it gets to the point where they are pushing down their view of forcing it on me, I politely end the conversation.

As for aethiests, I have friends who are agnostics and/or aethiests. To each his/her own decision.



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Re: Are You Athiest?
« Reply #10 on: March 03, 2009, 09:51:14 AM »
In order to be fair either all religion-related advertising should be allowed - or all of it should be banned.

It's hypocritical to complain about the atheist bus ads, yet have no problem with ads from other religious viewpoints.

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Re: Are You Athiest?
« Reply #11 on: March 03, 2009, 08:50:19 PM »
In order to be fair either all religion-related advertising should be allowed - or all of it should be banned.

It's hypocritical to complain about the atheist bus ads, yet have no problem with ads from other religious viewpoints.

you're right, ben.
however, the Ad looks insulting to people who believe. the way it's being said may also arise tension. to muslims, especially.

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Re: Are You Athiest?
« Reply #12 on: March 04, 2009, 12:24:39 AM »
This is one of the hurdles we must get used to, living in a secularized society.

It all comes down to respect. Its rater libertarian, if you think about it in a way.

"You can do what you want, believe in what you want, so long as you don't do it in my property on push your belief on me, unless its a mutual similarity."

Respect.

That idea is intrinsic jud for the maintenance of Harmony in any situation, place, people, society. Respect is Key.

Just like in this Forum. Respect is Key. :)

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glacier_71

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Re: Are You Atheist?
« Reply #13 on: March 04, 2009, 01:11:42 AM »
how's the move by this freethinking group to remove the christian symbol in the US $ like "In God We Trust"? Is it not in a way discriminating to them?just wondering.

i know the huge impact of such move if it's going to be realized but doing so has more than what it takes than merely as diminishing the separation of state and the church.

respecting other people's beliefs is indeed the key, but living with them is demanding another level of tolerance, same for me with the case when a group starts to openly express their views right in front of our very eyes.

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Re: Are You Atheist?
« Reply #14 on: March 04, 2009, 01:27:09 AM »
When we think that we have power over the universe and we have full control over the world, of other people and of our lives, the concept of a God is becoming irrelevant.

When we think that day to day events are natural course of nature and sometimes are influenced by people, less can we think of a God.

When we have everything that we need; fame, wealth , beauty and wisdom, less can we think of a God.

When we have great influence, less can we think of a God.

But we forget that since God made us based on His image and likeness, it is because of this that we have attributes of being a God though we are not. Hence we have characters of being a ruler, abilities to create something, etc.  These are God's likeness that we share from Him
Think about it, "based on His image, and likeness". We look like God, we behave like God.  That is how He love us.

No other creature are created according to God's image and likeness.  Angels and devils are even envious of us.

The two most important thing that God shared with us, are free will and wisdom. It is because of this freewill that we are permitted to choose between the good and the bad.  And wisdom, is the power to choose between the two..



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Re: Are You Atheist?
« Reply #15 on: March 04, 2009, 03:35:17 AM »
Mao bitaw. Its the beauty of the Free Will our Father in Heaven gave us.

:)

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Re: Are You Atheist?
« Reply #16 on: March 04, 2009, 05:23:20 AM »
i am not an atheist. i just do not beleive in being in just one religeous organization. i have met heads of churches and behind closed doors they are not always as sweet or as put on a pedestal that you people tend to let them be.

I do not beleive that anyone should be put on a pedestal in front of god.

I see the churches here not helping the poor in the same manner such as the ones are doing back home.

I see the preist here are eating rich dinners and driving very nice expensive cars and having no good avorable attitude for helping the poor here. I have heard that it is twice now that they pass the collection bag twice now during one mass.

I beleive in God but not being teid to specific beleifs to eachis own.

I see people come out of church and then ten minutes later they are getting drunk or breaking the law or doing things against God and his people.

Church to me is described by some Fiilipinos these days just a place to go and show off to your freinds "Loook at me Ma I am attending church am Inot a gooody goody!"

Thre church here is not allowing vendors to use the parking lot so the poor can make money for supporting they're families.
They do allow a big national food vendor such as Duncan Donuts to use the parking lot as the only allowed vendor.

My understanding is church should help the people and help assist with non-profit organizations that are church reated for improving the peoples livlihoods here.

Cathokic Churches back home are so good, and accept you whether you are baptized or not.

As i said I beleive but not in religeons because i have sen too much wrong being done to people who need help and who do live by the churches way but they are given nothing in return.

We are all equally importaNT AND THATS A FACT i DO NOT WORSHIP NO PREISTS, PREACHERS, OR MINISTERS I DO MY PRAYING IN PRIVATE AND CONDUCT MYSELF POLITLEY IN PUBLIC.

I think I have said enough and answered this as honest as I can. I am here to offend anyone its just my opinion these days in particular.

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Re: Are You Atheist?
« Reply #17 on: March 04, 2009, 05:28:29 AM »
I mean to say I amnot here to offend anyone. I do beleive also that people haqve the right and should have the choice to be any religeon that they so choose to be.

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Bad Godesberg

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Re: Are You Atheist?
« Reply #18 on: March 04, 2009, 06:00:31 AM »
Religion cannot save us.
You will be judge according to your deeds here on earth.

Only Gods Mercy can save us from our sins.

JESUS Christ is our salvation... believe and you will be saved !


JESUS IS THE WISDOM OF GOD INCARNATE   

+JLY

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Re: Are You Atheist?
« Reply #19 on: March 04, 2009, 06:18:22 AM »
i absolutely respect your stance, precious.

yes, everybody should respect what he/she is believing.

and yes, every one has made mistakes and many have fallen short, even people in robe, even in an institution or community we call church. we are not born saint, but we're capable to be one, with the grace of God--borrowing aleyssa's words--because we're created in God's own image and likeness.

but we never worship human beings like us. why would we? We only worship God.





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Re: Are You Atheist?
« Reply #20 on: March 04, 2009, 07:55:19 AM »
I think this kind of ad is a meaner meat for a big debate. That is one way of promoting their belief. In advertising, the proponent has to observe the pulse response from the public, whether or not their product has gained popularity because of the ad. It would be easier to end their campaign instead of compalining with media coverage. Just let them go and forget it!

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Re: Are You Atheist?
« Reply #21 on: March 04, 2009, 07:56:26 AM »
i am not an atheist. i just do not beleive in being in just one religeous organization. i have met heads of churches and behind closed doors they are not always as sweet or as put on a pedestal that you people tend to let them be.

I do not beleive that anyone should be put on a pedestal in front of god.

I see the churches here not helping the poor in the same manner such as the ones are doing back home.

I see the preist here are eating rich dinners and driving very nice expensive cars and having no good avorable attitude for helping the poor here. I have heard that it is twice now that they pass the collection bag twice now during one mass.

I beleive in God but not being teid to specific beleifs to eachis own.

I see people come out of church and then ten minutes later they are getting drunk or breaking the law or doing things against God and his people.

Church to me is described by some Fiilipinos these days just a place to go and show off to your freinds "Loook at me Ma I am attending church am Inot a gooody goody!"

Thre church here is not allowing vendors to use the parking lot so the poor can make money for supporting they're families.
They do allow a big national food vendor such as Duncan Donuts to use the parking lot as the only allowed vendor.

My understanding is church should help the people and help assist with non-profit organizations that are church reated for improving the peoples livlihoods here.

Cathokic Churches back home are so good, and accept you whether you are baptized or not.

As i said I beleive but not in religeons because i have sen too much wrong being done to people who need help and who do live by the churches way but they are given nothing in return.

We are all equally importaNT AND THATS A FACT i DO NOT WORSHIP NO PREISTS, PREACHERS, OR MINISTERS I DO MY PRAYING IN PRIVATE AND CONDUCT MYSELF POLITLEY IN PUBLIC.

I think I have said enough and answered this as honest as I can. I am here to offend anyone its just my opinion these days in particular.

Precious, you are right; you have said enough to make me understand your biases.  But I applaud you though for your "courage" to expose your way of thinking about things. 

Your quote:  Church to me is described by some Fiilipinos these days just a place to go and show off to your freinds "Loook at me Ma I am attending church am Inot a gooody goody!"

If that's how Church is described to you, oh, you hang out with wrong people. lol!



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Re: Are You Atheist?
« Reply #22 on: March 05, 2009, 08:24:54 AM »
I must give credit to the Catholics here.  The masses do promote a good feeling, they are uplifting.  This is in stark contrast to most of those that I have attended back in the UK, where they are rather somber and procedural affairs.

Back to our debate: the bus ads are not intended to evangelise.  They are meant to show the atheists / agnostics out there that they are not alone, no matter how much their views are frowned upon by respectable society.  As such I think they are a good thing.  Remember that in many places you can get into trouble if you deviate from the main religion.

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Re: Are You Atheist?
« Reply #23 on: March 05, 2009, 09:03:09 AM »
I think this kind of ad is a meaner meat for a big debate. That is one way of promoting their belief. In advertising, the proponent has to observe the pulse response from the public, whether or not their product has gained popularity because of the ad. It would be easier to end their campaign instead of compalining with media coverage. Just let them go and forget it!

this type of Ad is like a cape to a red bull, lay, especially in a community where many are professing believers of the Other--they be christians or muslims or otherwise. there's always another way to promote their stance which would not offend other's sensitivity. if to wave an Ad which point to the core of their belief and disdain it, many don't think this is appropriate.

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Re: Are You Atheist?
« Reply #24 on: March 05, 2009, 09:26:35 AM »
I must give credit to the Catholics here.  The masses do promote a good feeling, they are uplifting.  This is in stark contrast to most of those that I have attended back in the UK, where they are rather somber and procedural affairs.

Back to our debate: the bus ads are not intended to evangelise.  They are meant to show the atheists / agnostics out there that they are not alone, no matter how much their views are frowned upon by respectable society.  As such I think they are a good thing.  Remember that in many places you can get into trouble if you deviate from the main religion.

Ben,

The church that I attend back home in New Jersey has a growing Filipino membership. Ug mo adto ko sa mass, clear kaayo gusto mo canta jud ang Pinoy members. When the liturgical worship songs begin, maka hear jud ko kinsay pinoy or not kay very 'into the song' jud sila. lingaw baya. I can't help but get motivated to sing louder pood. hahaha!

Kining mga pinoy--ug mo adto sa simbahan, mo pour out jud ni sila ilang problema ug ilang gugma sa Ginoo sa Langit.

Very humbling kaayo to observe it.

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Re: Are You Atheist?
« Reply #25 on: March 05, 2009, 09:30:13 AM »
It is really their right to express! We do respect others to air their belief.  But, in return they should also have to respect what is ours- 'Freedom of Spits' meaning abhorence!

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Re: Are You Atheist?
« Reply #26 on: March 05, 2009, 10:00:30 AM »


I think this is a photoshop.  An ad like this would really get people frothing at the mouth!

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Re: Are You Atheist?
« Reply #27 on: March 05, 2009, 11:09:54 AM »
Definitely.
This would never go well here in the 'states. Islamic groups would be filing lawsuits.

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Re: Are You Atheist?
« Reply #28 on: March 05, 2009, 11:17:21 AM »
yes they are in Canada. we're still more lenient and tolerant. more Ads like this might be coming.

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ayessa

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Re: Are You Atheist?
« Reply #29 on: March 05, 2009, 05:01:11 PM »
lawsuits? under which grounds? and where would they file it, in sharia courts? hahha

are sharia courts honored in the states?  pardon my ignorance, maybe it is honored. haha

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Re: Are You Atheist?
« Reply #30 on: March 05, 2009, 05:12:16 PM »
Ben,

The church that I attend back home in New Jersey has a growing Filipino membership. Ug mo adto ko sa mass, clear kaayo gusto mo canta jud ang Pinoy members. When the liturgical worship songs begin, maka hear jud ko kinsay pinoy or not kay very 'into the song' jud sila. lingaw baya. I can't help but get motivated to sing louder pood. hahaha!

Kining mga pinoy--ug mo adto sa simbahan, mo pour out jud ni sila ilang problema ug ilang gugma sa Ginoo sa Langit.

Very humbling kaayo to observe it.

pero split level Christianity.  Inig uli sa balay sigeg pamalikas, sige away sa asawa, sigeg pamagi . libakera, hinawayun.

ang eraserheads ( naa na sad silay concert pero sayang wala ko sa pinas) ing ingun, "banal na aso, santong kabayo"

mas daghan pa kong kaila, walay simba simba, pero mas maayo pag binuhatan.


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ayessa

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Re: Are You Atheist?
« Reply #31 on: March 05, 2009, 05:13:41 PM »
pareha lang sa mga tawo nga ganahan ug gira.  Kung naa ganiy gera, wala ang ginoo ana, kay ang gira puro demonyo ang naa.



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ayessa

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Re: Are You Atheist?
« Reply #32 on: March 05, 2009, 05:20:21 PM »
Atheists are most often than not pragmatic, utilitarian thinkers.  I do not have any problem with them at all.  I respect their way of thinking.  There are even more atheists who have better relations with other people, who are more generous and understanding than most of the Christians that I know.



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Re: Are You Atheist?
« Reply #33 on: March 05, 2009, 06:28:43 PM »
Atheists are most often than not pragmatic, utilitarian thinkers.  I do not have any problem with them at all.  I respect their way of thinking.  There are even more atheists who have better relations with other people, who are more generous and understanding than most of the Christians that I know.


Sus tinood jud na ayessa.

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Re: Are You Atheist?
« Reply #34 on: March 05, 2009, 06:31:11 PM »
If statistical data is correct that 99.99% of Catholics are unChristian, most likely they are neither atheist nor are they conservatives but  they are....ehem. Apil sab ko ani da!

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LanggamTamsi2

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Re: Are You Atheist?
« Reply #35 on: March 05, 2009, 06:32:55 PM »
If statistical data is correct that 99.99% of Catholics are unChristian, most likely they are atheist.
korek ka jan mr layman.

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Re: Are You Atheist?
« Reply #36 on: March 06, 2009, 12:03:14 AM »
lawsuits? under which grounds? and where would they file it, in sharia courts? hahha

are sharia courts honored in the states?  pardon my ignorance, maybe it is honored. haha

Civil rights abuses, religious intolerance and such grounds. The ACLU (American Civil Liberties Union) is active in such. Multiple instances of this. I have a friend who is an attorney and works for the ACLU and specializes on such.



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ayessa

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Re: Are You Atheist?
« Reply #37 on: March 06, 2009, 02:19:45 AM »
Civil rights abuses? because of religion? is this a joke?  There is a freedom of speech and expression  and there is a doctrine of the separation of the church and of the state.  and where is the religious intolerance there?

let me talk to your friend, Civil law is a subject in Political Science in College and nothing reminds me of a civil case because of a comment on religion. 

Is there a civil case which can be filed because of this comment? " Religion flies you into buildings."
?????



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ayessa

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Re: Are You Atheist?
« Reply #38 on: March 06, 2009, 02:41:17 AM »
Pips,

Bantay mo sa amerika, ingun sila ikiha kuno ka kung muingon ka ug

"Religion flies you into buildings?"

Civil case kuno ni!!!

Bel, bantay bantay ani. basin ma dakpan ka.  dili nalang ko muadto ug amerika kay presohon kuno mo comment ug ingun ani.

hahahahha

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Re: Are You Atheist?
« Reply #39 on: March 06, 2009, 03:24:52 AM »
If statistical data is correct that 99.99% of Catholics are unChristian, most likely they are neither atheist nor are they conservatives but  they are....ehem. Apil sab ko ani da!

wikipedia ni layman? hehehe

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Re: Are You Atheist?
« Reply #40 on: March 06, 2009, 04:21:06 AM »
Civil rights abuses? because of religion? is this a joke?  There is a freedom of speech and expression  and there is a doctrine of the separation of the church and of the state.  and where is the religious intolerance there?

let me talk to your friend, Civil law is a subject in Political Science in College and nothing reminds me of a civil case because of a comment on religion. 

Is there a civil case which can be filed because of this comment? " Religion flies you into buildings."
?????



I am serious. The ACLU and other civil rights groups are very active here in the United States, Roy.

Race, and Religion is a very sensitive topic and subject here.

Is it different/similar over there in Germany?

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ayessa

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Re: Are You Atheist?
« Reply #41 on: March 06, 2009, 04:23:05 AM »
but under which violation is done with this comment, " Religion flies you into buildings"?

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Re: Are You Atheist?
« Reply #42 on: March 06, 2009, 04:27:34 AM »
Roy, there was a conference of Muslim Individuals in Canada, and whn the Muslim-Americans were detained and asked questions for their involvement in said conference, the organization sued the US Department of Homeland Security for violating religious freedom and rights.

I read this several months ago.

Here is the link:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A6225-2005Apr20.html

some related articles for side reading:
http://articles.latimes.com/2006/may/16/local/me-aclu16

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Re: Are You Atheist?
« Reply #43 on: March 06, 2009, 04:33:35 AM »
but under which violation is done with this comment, " Religion flies you into buildings"?

This question we should direct to an attorney or a law student.

I am a Medical Student, not a law student, and thus am not too well versed in American Law and its processes.

We need an American Law Student's opinion. That or any Attorney that is experienced in civil rights cases etc.

I'll see if I can get Gerald to join this forum, lol.



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ayessa

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Re: Are You Atheist?
« Reply #44 on: March 06, 2009, 04:33:38 AM »
Just tell me what is the violation for this comment?, " Religion flies you into buildings"?
and why is it offensive to Muslims?

I dont know where is the violation of religious rights  in the above mentioned comment?

Is this racial, sectorally, class offensive?

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Re: Are You Atheist?
« Reply #45 on: March 06, 2009, 04:34:47 AM »
I promise you Lorenzo, there is no case which can be brought in court because of this comment.

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Re: Are You Atheist?
« Reply #46 on: March 06, 2009, 04:36:42 AM »
lol, we need an attorney in here to answer you questions, Roy.



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ayessa

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Re: Are You Atheist?
« Reply #47 on: March 06, 2009, 04:36:45 AM »
Roy, there was a conference of Muslim Individuals in Canada, and whn the Muslim-Americans were detained and asked questions for their involvement in said conference, the organization sued the US Department of Homeland Security for violating religious freedom and rights.

I read this several months ago.


Here is the link:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A6225-2005Apr20.html

some related articles for side reading:
http://articles.latimes.com/2006/may/16/local/me-aclu16


This is a totally different case Lorenzo.  This is a clear violation of the right to religious freedom.  Necessary to this right, is the exercise of functions to express religious activities ( in this case, a religious conference),



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Re: Are You Atheist?
« Reply #48 on: March 06, 2009, 04:42:04 AM »
Thanks for the clarification, Roy. Question lang ko, does not that statement fall within religious discrimination?

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ayessa

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Re: Are You Atheist?
« Reply #49 on: March 06, 2009, 04:42:28 AM »
and why is it only offensive to Muslims lorenzo?

Did it mention anything about Muslims?

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Re: Are You Atheist?
« Reply #50 on: March 06, 2009, 04:44:55 AM »
Which statement? "Religion flies you into buildings?"
I think not.  This is non-specific of a religious sector.  This is only an atheistic opinion which does not discriminate any religion, religious practice, etc.

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Re: Are You Atheist?
« Reply #51 on: March 06, 2009, 04:46:16 AM »
Well, the flying into buildings, is very graphic for us Americans. 9/11 is very sensitive for us. And well, relating crashing of planes on a building--to the American--reminds of 9/11 and is demonizing said religion.

Which is indirectly pointing to Islam

Just a point.

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Re: Are You Atheist?
« Reply #52 on: March 06, 2009, 04:49:14 AM »
The right to religious freedom is one of the most important civil liberties, in the US and in any democratic country.  Implied to religious freedom, is the freedom not to believe.  This is why atheism is legal.

Important consideration is the separation of the Church and of the State.  If some funds of the government are specifically alloted for a specific religious sector, this is religious discrimination.

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ayessa

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Re: Are You Atheist?
« Reply #53 on: March 06, 2009, 04:56:46 AM »
It may have malice, but still it depends on the person interpreting it.  The court does not consider ambigous statements.

Remember Lorenzo.  The right to self expression is equally important in the states.  Flags are burned but no lawsuits are filed.  A caricature of Mohammad is punned in Denmark ( a democratic country) but no lawsuit was filed.  An artist in Austria made a mockery of the last suffer as an expression of his protest against the catholic church, but no lawsuit was filed.

But if you say that the Holocaust did not happened, then you will be jailed in Germany

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Re: Are You Atheist?
« Reply #54 on: March 06, 2009, 05:08:20 AM »
Freedom of expression is guaranteed to us by th 1st Ammendment and reiterated in the Bill of Rights, but each action carries the notion of responsibility; an example is the Litigation against the Westboro Baptist Church by family members of dead soldiers (in this case, the WBC actually protested the funeral of deceased soldiers with shouts saying "God Damn America" and/or "Thank God For IEDs" "America Is A Sodomite Nation and Soldiers Will Burn In Hell")

Sure their 1st ammendment right guarantees them to talk, however, when one ovesteps the boundaries and starts harrassing other individuals, religious discrimination and or libel charges can be filed.

Organizations such as the ACLU and other Civil Rights Watch Groups are very active here in the United States, I reiterate. And that is why such signs like the one Ben shared with us will not fare positively here in the United States. And am sure, lawsuits will be filed on the organization that ever posts this on public transportation buses.

By on that act, the transportation company would also be subject to a lawsuit.



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ayessa

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Re: Are You Atheist?
« Reply #55 on: March 06, 2009, 05:15:15 AM »
What was the decision of the court?

Religious discrimination is valuing or treating a person or group differently because of what they do or do not believe.



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Re: Are You Atheist?
« Reply #56 on: March 06, 2009, 05:18:55 AM »
If a governt owned public busing company authorized a poster like the one Ben shared with us, here in the United States, that would already be a violation of the Title III of the Civil Rights Act.

In such a case, the ACLU and other large Civil Rights Groups would be drawn to said case. I guarantee you that.



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ayessa

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Re: Are You Atheist?
« Reply #57 on: March 06, 2009, 05:20:37 AM »
You were referring to hate speech law ( which is commonly practiced in the media), but this statement "Religion flies you into buildings!" is not a hate speech.

(a) The right to freedom of expression and opinions

The right to freedom of expression upholds the rights of all to express their views and opinions freely. It is essentially a right which should be promoted to the maximum extent possible given its critical role in democracy and public participation in political life. There may be certain extreme forms of expression which need to be curtailed for the protection of other human rights. Limiting freedom of expression in such situations is always a fine balancing act. One particular form of expression which is banned in some countries is “hate speech”.

There may be some views which incite intolerance or hatred between groups. This raises the debate about whether such hate speech, as it is known, should be restricted. An extreme example of this is the use of the mass media to promote genocide or racially-motivated attacks, such as the role played by Radio-Télévision Libre des Milles Collines in the Rwandan genocide in 1994. In some countries hate speech laws have been introduced to outlaw such expression. There is a fine balance between upholding the right to freedom of expression and protecting other human rights. The success of such laws has often been questionable and one of the consequences has been to drive hate speech underground. While it may be necessary to ban certain extreme forms of hate speech and certainly to make its use by the state prohibited, parallel measures involving the promotion of a pluralistic media are essential to give voice to counter viewpoints.
source: hrea.org


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Re: Are You Atheist?
« Reply #58 on: March 06, 2009, 05:24:29 AM »
I have not read any case, in Supreme court precedings having successful cases like this.

The statement maybe suggesting, but it is an opinion.  Same as Muslims, stepping on american flags.




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ayessa

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Re: Are You Atheist?
« Reply #59 on: March 06, 2009, 05:38:15 AM »
Important to the realization of real democracy is the right to self expression.  In this case, it is an opinion expressed on a bus. Malicious or not, it maybe a fundamentalist view, but it is a view. This could be interpreted colloqiually, as what you often do. The same as we allow Muslims to criticize our Christ. The same, as other Christian denomination call our Blessed Virgin Mary, a pagan goddess. Our society is very varied and dynamic composed of sectors with different political and social framework. 

If you call a muslim a terrorist, he would sue you, not of religious discrimination, but of libel or oral defamation.



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ayessa

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Re: Are You Atheist?
« Reply #60 on: March 06, 2009, 05:47:03 AM »
Let me make my point simple Lorenzo.  If I say that religion is the root cause of war, would that bring me to jail? I guess not. 

If someone say, that it was because of religion why the twin towers were bomb, it is a crime?
I guess not.

Religion flies you into buildings implies that religion causes people to be harmful.

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Re: Are You Atheist?
« Reply #61 on: March 06, 2009, 06:13:47 AM »
Black Pastor jailed for excercising First Amendment rights
by Michele Combs on February 23, 2009

Americans' religious rights and First Amendment rights continue to be eroded as evidenced by the jailing of a black pastor from a Berkeley, California church last week. He was the first person convicted -- two months ago -- under Oakland's law preventing pro-life protesters from coming within 8 feet of anyone entering an abortion clinic.

The Union City pastor, Walter Hoye, received a $1,000 fine, 30 days in jail (although in the future pro-lifers can be actually be put in jail for up to two years) and 3 years' probation. This courageous pastor told the judge: "I believe that an unjust law is no law at all." Pastor Hoye even answered Alameda Superior Court Judge Hing's question of whether or not he would abide by an order to stay 100 yards away from the Oakland abortion clinic with a principled "No."

Pro-life activists called the anti-constitutional Oakland City Council law passed in 2007 an intrusion on their freedom of speech. Pastor Hoye -- as do pro-life demonstrators all over America -- passes out literature outside abortion clinics and sometimes carries a sign saying: "Jesus loves you and your baby. Let us help you!" Pastor Hoye asked women about to kill their unborn babies before they go into the abortion clinics: "May I talk to you about alternatives to the clinic?"

And for these caring actions by a caring pro-life pastor, he is now sentenced to go to jail. The head of the National Black Pro-life Congress said about Pastor Hoye's actions at the abortion clinic: "He never laid hands on anyone," Unless Christians in America wake up soon, their religious rights will be completely eroded.

ANALYZE THIS. JAILED!!!

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Lorenzo

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Re: Are You Atheist?
« Reply #62 on: March 06, 2009, 06:19:01 AM »
What was the decision of the court?

Religious discrimination is valuing or treating a person or group differently because of what they do or do not believe.



Roy,

The Westboro Baptist Church was found guilty and was ordered to pay $11 Million worth of damages.

http://www.transworldnews.com/NewsStory.aspx?id=26810&cat=13

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Re: Are You Atheist?
« Reply #63 on: March 06, 2009, 06:26:54 AM »
Black Pastor jailed for excercising First Amendment rights
by Michele Combs on February 23, 2009

Americans' religious rights and First Amendment rights continue to be eroded as evidenced by the jailing of a black pastor from a Berkeley, California church last week. He was the first person convicted -- two months ago -- under Oakland's law preventing pro-life protesters from coming within 8 feet of anyone entering an abortion clinic.

The Union City pastor, Walter Hoye, received a $1,000 fine, 30 days in jail (although in the future pro-lifers can be actually be put in jail for up to two years) and 3 years' probation. This courageous pastor told the judge: "I believe that an unjust law is no law at all." Pastor Hoye even answered Alameda Superior Court Judge Hing's question of whether or not he would abide by an order to stay 100 yards away from the Oakland abortion clinic with a principled "No."

Pro-life activists called the anti-constitutional Oakland City Council law passed in 2007 an intrusion on their freedom of speech. Pastor Hoye -- as do pro-life demonstrators all over America -- passes out literature outside abortion clinics and sometimes carries a sign saying: "Jesus loves you and your baby. Let us help you!" Pastor Hoye asked women about to kill their unborn babies before they go into the abortion clinics: "May I talk to you about alternatives to the clinic?"

And for these caring actions by a caring pro-life pastor, he is now sentenced to go to jail. The head of the National Black Pro-life Congress said about Pastor Hoye's actions at the abortion clinic: "He never laid hands on anyone," Unless Christians in America wake up soon, their religious rights will be completely eroded.

ANALYZE THIS. JAILED!!!

Glacier, this is an interesting article. Thank You for posting this.


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Re: Are You Atheist?
« Reply #64 on: March 06, 2009, 06:32:31 AM »
The point of the story is that within the United States of America, we have laws that are set in place to protect and assess the sensitivity of religion, race, ethnicity and sexual preference, sexual lifestyle etc. Despite our personal prejudices, the law is the law.

We have constitutional rights to convey our freedom of expression, but such a right varies to the extremity of said expression and thus, preventing one's 'freedom of expression' from bypassing and stepping over another individual's constitutional rights.

Again, legislation of such varies from state to state, here in the United States; be in in Oklahoma, New Jersey, or California (as in the case that Glacier pointed out).

The point of the matter is that there are limitations to what one can and cannot do.

The presence of the ACLU and other Civil Rights Watch Dogs are for the purposes of catching such grievances and taking proper legal action.



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Re: Are You Atheist?
« Reply #65 on: March 06, 2009, 08:40:50 AM »
cant you see the big difference on the bus add?

science can only fly you to the moon but beleivers only on buildings? where? i'm sure these buidings are erected in heaven.

well, this is pure and simple abuse of free will from our Creator mainly from the communists minds. 



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Lorenzo

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Re: Are You Atheist?
« Reply #66 on: March 06, 2009, 08:47:50 AM »
I believe in a secular society, and respect between christians, muslims, hindus, agnostics, athiests, comes from inter-demographic harmony. We should have the right to privately express our religious ideals in churches or on specific forums/channels of communique.

It shouldn't be on public edifices, and or transportation. The point is, there is a clear difference between talking, communicating and respectfully sharing information, as compared to harshly degrading another's point of view and religious beliefs and or religiousity.

There is malice in such a message.
And it is conveying more disrespect and hostility than bridging understanding and cooperation.

Antagonism never helped heal wounds, instead of unifying a secular society, such actions and methods of communication will only distance and placate walls--divisions.

Yours With Respect,
Bran Lorenzo

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Re: Are You Atheist?
« Reply #67 on: March 06, 2009, 08:47:53 AM »
Have you even analyzed the story very well?  He was of course jailed because he was using his religious affiliation as a sign of his expression against abortion?

Where is religious discrimination there? huh?

LOL.  Yes Lorenzo, ordinance is ordinance.  If abortion maybe legal there, obstructing someone to commt such is punishable by the law.

Just take this as an example.  When it is legal to buy pott in amsterdam, protesting infront of a pott house would surely land you in jail.

Really funny anaylsis you have.

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Re: Are You Atheist?
« Reply #68 on: March 06, 2009, 08:51:19 AM »
That pastor should have placed his protest in the right avenue, that is, protesting in front of the city council, which was legalizing abortion.

That was an instrusion of private rights.

That was invoking religious doctrines, in a non-secular case. 

hehehe

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Lorenzo

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Re: Are You Atheist?
« Reply #69 on: March 06, 2009, 08:51:47 AM »
Roy, Your examples apply for Holland, alone.

The laws and regulations we have here in the United States are different from those in Europe. Europe is a bit more liberal.

The United States, still is quite conservative.

In order for us to understand how said scenario will manifest in the United States, one needs to have a firm bearing on the constitutional processes and laws of the United States.

Thank You for sharing your well written input. As i do enjoy learning from different points of views. I hope that our conversation in here was productive.



Your Brother In Christ,
Bran Lorenzo

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Lorenzo

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Re: Are You Atheist?
« Reply #70 on: March 06, 2009, 08:53:58 AM »
That pastor should have placed his protest in the right avenue, that is, protesting in front of the city council, legalizing abortion.

That was an instrusion of private rights.

That was invoking religious doctrines, in a non-secular case. 

hehehe

One can make a debate that he was expressing his Freedom of Expression, Roy.
hehe, this scenario, am sure, is in topic debate in Law Schools in the United States.

As i said earlier, am just a simple med student. Perhaps more Law Students in the Philippines and/or the US can shed some more light?

Id like to hear from an attorney's/law student's point of view.
(no offense to you, Roy, I do however, still respect your views and cherish your intellectual viewpoint) hehe


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ayessa

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Re: Are You Atheist?
« Reply #71 on: March 06, 2009, 08:54:51 AM »
No, you do not get the point Lorenzo.

Why he was  jailed?  This was because of obstruction and instrusion of private rights.

If someone out there, who wanted to make abortion secretly (which is aparrently legal in that place ), such protest action is an invasion of their private rights.


Tell the the merits of the case. 

The case actually contradicted your claim lorenzo.

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Re: Are You Atheist?
« Reply #72 on: March 06, 2009, 08:57:02 AM »
Hahaha..

This cannot be cited as a freedom of expression Lorenzo.  He was putting people to shame.

This case has nothing to do with the previous topic on religious discrimination.

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Lorenzo

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Re: Are You Atheist?
« Reply #73 on: March 06, 2009, 08:57:43 AM »
The courts made a decision, Roy, that it was an intrusion of private rights.
But the pastor and many others that are in his side, would claim that he was expressing his Right to Freedom of Expression and Freedom of Speech.

Like I said, this is a rather excellent topic for debate in a legal course.

Roy, I respect your view point. And that is I will not engage personal remarks.

Roy, we were not discussing abortion. Please stick to the topic.

:)

you are quite the spicy individual. lol

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Lorenzo

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Re: Are You Atheist?
« Reply #74 on: March 06, 2009, 08:58:34 AM »
haha, Roy, please, you're not going to change my view. :)

Let us end this in agreeing that we both disagree. hahaha

:)

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ayessa

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Re: Are You Atheist?
« Reply #75 on: March 06, 2009, 08:59:10 AM »
Just simple logic would lead you to a better answer Lorenzo and besides, should you have sought legal advice, then you should not have posted that case here, and just directly ask a lawyer, right?



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Lorenzo

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Re: Are You Atheist?
« Reply #76 on: March 06, 2009, 09:00:24 AM »
Roy, if I ever would seek legal advice, I will make sure to hire the best of the best that graduated form Harvard Law.

:)

that or I could send you an email. and maybe you could offer me a small tidbit. hahaha

Peace.

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Re: Are You Atheist?
« Reply #77 on: March 06, 2009, 09:01:32 AM »
Let us stick to the main proposition Lorenzo.  You have mentioned that this comment " Religion flies you into buildings" would land you in american jails.

How in any case, you would connect this comment to the case cited by glacier?

hahaha.. The right to self expression?

This is entirely differently. Did he abuse private rights when he made this comment (religion flies you into buildings)? I think not.

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Lorenzo

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Re: Are You Atheist?
« Reply #78 on: March 06, 2009, 09:01:41 AM »
Just simple logic would lead you to a better answer Lorenzo and besides, should you have sought legal advice, then you should not have posted that case here, and just directly ask a lawyer, right?



I posted because its food for thought.

My head is reading biochemistry, physiology, anatomy, science all day. Treating patients.

Reading about politics and something un-medical related is a release, actually. lol



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ayessa

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Re: Are You Atheist?
« Reply #79 on: March 06, 2009, 09:01:56 AM »
Your case about the pastor is even irrelevant.

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ayessa

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Re: Are You Atheist?
« Reply #80 on: March 06, 2009, 09:04:06 AM »
read the title of the thread lorenzo.

it is not abortion. abortion as a topic is only incidental here.

hahaha..



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Lorenzo

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Re: Are You Atheist?
« Reply #81 on: March 06, 2009, 09:05:02 AM »
Let us stick to the main proposition Lorenzo.  You have mentioned that this comment " Religion flies you into buildings" would land you in american jails.

How in any case, you would connect this comment to the case cited by glacier.

hahaha.. The right to self expression.

This is entirely differently. Did he abuse private rights when he made this comment? I think not.

Did he abuse private rights with this comment? It is obvious that he was acting in contempt in the court room.

Here is the scenario, Roy Roger (lol):

1. The pastor and the pro-life supporters were expressing their freedom of free speech and freedom of expression in protesting the abortion clinic
2. However, the violated California Law that prohibits stepping within the 8 feet zone of an abortion clinic.

Clearly, Roy, this is a case where freedom of expression is overruled by state regulation.


With black coffee in my hand (and no sugar),
Lorenzo

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ayessa

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Re: Are You Atheist?
« Reply #82 on: March 06, 2009, 09:06:06 AM »
Finish your medicine Lorenzo, and we will debate after that.

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Lorenzo

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Re: Are You Atheist?
« Reply #83 on: March 06, 2009, 09:07:10 AM »
Can you wait  6 years?

MD/PhD takes 6 years.

lol

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Re: Are You Atheist?
« Reply #84 on: March 06, 2009, 09:07:35 AM »
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ayessa

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Re: Are You Atheist?
« Reply #85 on: March 06, 2009, 09:07:35 AM »
Contempt in court? Do you even understand the meaning of that?

Contempt in court, is when you do not follow rules of conduct in court.  You do not respect the court.

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Lorenzo

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Re: Are You Atheist?
« Reply #86 on: March 06, 2009, 09:08:09 AM »
Contempt in court? Do you even understand the meaning of that?

Contempt in court, is when you do not follow rules of conduct in court.  You do not respect the court.

LOL

Roy, I thought you said we can debate after I finish.

hahaha. o goodness the irony.

You make me laugh, sir.

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Lorenzo

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Re: Are You Atheist?
« Reply #87 on: March 06, 2009, 09:08:20 AM »
(not at you tho) just laugh.

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Lorenzo

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Re: Are You Atheist?
« Reply #88 on: March 06, 2009, 09:09:19 AM »
Contempt in court? Do you even understand the meaning of that?

Contempt in court, is when you do not follow rules of conduct in court.  You do not respect the court.

Yes, when he said 'No' to the judge. That can be considered contempt of court.

lol

why are you asking me, im not a law student.

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ayessa

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Re: Are You Atheist?
« Reply #89 on: March 06, 2009, 09:09:52 AM »
Correction, M.D. is not Ph.d.

Hahahal.  The professors in Europe would mock you on this.

In order for an M.D. to be of equivalence to Ph.d,

you should have written researches, and not by being a M.D graduate alone.

Dont worry Lorenzo . Im 27 years old, soon to get my Ph.d in a few months, not in 6 years.

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ayessa

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Re: Are You Atheist?
« Reply #90 on: March 06, 2009, 09:11:45 AM »
Did the pastor said no to the judge?  hahaha

He was jailed because he did not follow the law, not that he did not follow the order of the court.

Atty. Del Lagunay, please explain to Lorenzo, what is contempt of court.

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Lorenzo

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Re: Are You Atheist?
« Reply #91 on: March 06, 2009, 09:11:52 AM »
Roy, I am in a 7 year M.D/PhD dual program.

:)

Sige, good luck on your Ph.D dissertation.

I never denied you were a smart individual.



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ayessa

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Re: Are You Atheist?
« Reply #92 on: March 06, 2009, 09:12:55 AM »
Im not asking you Lorenzo. But you should not mention things when you are not sure.  You appear to be funny. Little knowledge is dangerous, as they say.

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Re: Are You Atheist?
« Reply #93 on: March 06, 2009, 09:14:13 AM »
OK. Let us not be emotional here and go back to the original proposition. ok?

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Lorenzo

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Re: Are You Atheist?
« Reply #94 on: March 06, 2009, 09:14:24 AM »
I never declared that I know everything, Roy.

I am just a simple student, remember. For me, learning is part of life, and asking and assuming is a way of being corrected.

We are not all born correct and never wrong like you, Roy.

:)

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Lorenzo

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Re: Are You Atheist?
« Reply #95 on: March 06, 2009, 09:14:56 AM »
OK. Let us not be emotional here and go back to the original proposition. ok?

By your lead.

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Re: Are You Atheist?
« Reply #96 on: March 06, 2009, 09:15:45 AM »
Tell me now.  How can you connect the pastors case, to the previously debated case about this comment " Religion flies you into buildings"  ( which, as you proposed, would end one in american jail)

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Lorenzo

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Re: Are You Atheist?
« Reply #97 on: March 06, 2009, 09:21:41 AM »
Let me argue your last question. First of all I never argued that the statement 'religion flies you into buildings' can lead one into jail.

I did say, however, many pages ago, that it could warrant a civil litigation. As in being sued.

That statement is an example of freedom expression, is it not?
As was the pastor's case. And it is an example of how freedom of expression can be overridden if it violates personal/private rights.

If a poster with such a comment was to be paraded in the United States and attracted the attention of muslims, christians, and the ACLU; I guarantee you, one will have a legal suite.



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Lorenzo

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Re: Are You Atheist?
« Reply #98 on: March 06, 2009, 09:23:38 AM »
Remember what happened to the WBC. $11 Million for punitive damage.


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Lorenzo

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Re: Are You Atheist?
« Reply #99 on: March 06, 2009, 09:25:24 AM »
Roy, how about I invite you to come to the 'states, rent a car and parade that poster on the outer surface of our automobile in downtown NYC.

And see what will happen.

Think of it as a lab experiment. Then you can write a written analysis on the data, the results and your conclusion.


Lorenzo

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