Author Topic: Why is the Philippine Catholic Church Against Family Planning? (Read 20965 times)

MikeLigalig.com · « **on:** September 29, 2010, 05:51:23 AM »

This is the answer given by a friend.

Without new births, it means no income for the Catholic Church.

Calculation: 2,000,000 babies a year multiplied by P500 pesos for baptismal fee = 1,000 Million Pesos
If there are other fees, it means more hundreds of millions of pesos.

Therefore, zero birth = zero income for the Catholic Church. Sounds logical, isn't it?

Agree or disagree?

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bol-anon quo nyur! · « **Reply #1 on:** September 29, 2010, 06:00:44 AM »

This is the answer given by a friend.

Without new births, it means no income for the Catholic Church.

Calculation: 2,000,000 babies a year multiplied by P500 pesos for baptismal fee = 1,000 Million Pesos
If there are other fees, it means more hundreds of millions of pesos.

Therefore, zero birth = zero income for the Catholic Church. Sounds logical, isn't it?

Agree or disagree?

I have the right to remain silent....AGREE!!!

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statesville · « **Reply #2 on:** September 29, 2010, 08:34:04 AM »

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bernaldez89 · « **Reply #3 on:** September 29, 2010, 10:55:42 AM »

For me, religions â€˜play essential roleâ€™ in family planning..

Natural Family Planning has come a long a way. Not only does it meet the church's moral standard for spacing births, it keeps a marriage going..

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dina jala · « **Reply #4 on:** September 29, 2010, 02:04:52 PM »

The question is....Why is the Philippine Catholic Church Against Family Planning?

No, the Philippine Catholic Church is not against Family Planning. The Catholic Church is promoting the Natural Family Planning. I said no because I am one of the lecturers about Natural Family Planning in our Parish.

Actually, not only the Catholic Church is against the artificial family planning but all other Christian Communities.

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bernaldez89 · « **Reply #5 on:** September 29, 2010, 02:07:59 PM »

The question is....Why is the Philippine Catholic Church Against Family Planning?

No, the Philippine Catholic Church is not against Family Planning. The Catholic Church is promoting the Natural Family Planning. I said no because I am one of the lecturers about Natural Family Planning in our Parish.

Actually, not only the Catholic Church is against the artificial family planning but all other Christian Communities.

Yes. Maayo te

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islander · « **Reply #6 on:** September 29, 2010, 02:34:13 PM »

This is the answer given by a friend.

Without new births, it means no income for the Catholic Church.

Calculation: 2,000,000 babies a year multiplied by P500 pesos for baptismal fee = 1,000 Million Pesos
If there are other fees, it means more hundreds of millions of pesos.

Therefore, zero birth = zero income for the Catholic Church. Sounds logical, isn't it?

Agree or disagree?

i disagree, with due respect to cynicism that seems to be what this post is about. one doesn't have to think in terms of money when it comes to the stand of the catholic church on any issue that affects the population as a whole.

besides, why talk only of births vis-a-vis church income? why not include deaths as well? does the church concern itself with lost potential income when it makes a stand against murder? a murdered man needs a requiem mass (which means some fee of sorts) and many more masses besides, and must be buried (which means some fee for a catholic cemetery plot, if the living chooses it. n.b. private memorial plots are way too expensive).

if this friend can claim that more births mean more income to the church, then should he point out that more deaths also mean more income to the church, okay?

sometimes, completeness is needed for an argument to be credible. the title of the post (or thread, if you may) by itself is already misleading. i dare not say it's idiotic despite the temptation.

the catholic church is not against family planning, as this thread claims. it is against artificial contraception.

n.b. previous dina jala post says it all.

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bernaldez89 · « **Reply #7 on:** September 29, 2010, 02:37:06 PM »

@islander: Agree

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chicogon · « **Reply #8 on:** September 30, 2010, 07:24:07 AM »

The question is....Why is the Philippine Catholic Church Against Family Planning?

No, the Philippine Catholic Church is not against Family Planning. The Catholic Church is promoting the Natural Family Planning. I said no because I am one of the lecturers about Natural Family Planning in our Parish.

Actually, not only the Catholic Church is against the artificial family planning but all other Christian Communities.

Amen!!!

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hubag bohol · « **Reply #9 on:** September 30, 2010, 08:06:46 AM »

This is the answer given by a friend.

Without new births, it means no income for the Catholic Church.

Calculation: 2,000,000 babies a year multiplied by P500 pesos for baptismal fee = 1,000 Million Pesos
If there are other fees, it means more hundreds of millions of pesos.

Therefore, zero birth = zero income for the Catholic Church. Sounds logical, isn't it?

Agree or disagree?

Sounds logical? Not quite. I'm sure the Catholic Church has other, more lucrative sources of revenue.

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #10 on:** September 30, 2010, 10:05:15 AM »

The question is....Why is the Philippine Catholic Church Against Family Planning?

No, the Philippine Catholic Church is not against Family Planning. The Catholic Church is promoting the Natural Family Planning. I said no because I am one of the lecturers about Natural Family Planning in our Parish.

Actually, not only the Catholic Church is against the artificial family planning but all other Christian Communities.

I completely agree!

For me, religions â€˜play essential roleâ€™ in family planning..

Natural Family Planning has come a long a way. Not only does it meet the church's moral standard for spacing births, it keeps a marriage going..

Excellent point!

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #11 on:** September 30, 2010, 10:05:48 AM »

Amen!!!

hehehe, mo AMEN pood ko bi!

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bol-anon quo nyur! · « **Reply #12 on:** September 30, 2010, 10:09:39 AM »

hehehe, mo AMEN pood ko bi!

Na hala! AMEN na laman pod ko!

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bernaldez89 · « **Reply #13 on:** September 30, 2010, 10:33:49 AM »

I completely agree!

Excellent point!

@Lorenzo: Thanks!

For us, try not to be negative. It is easy to point out the downside of a situation, but if we make the effort to overcome our obstacles we can lead happier lives and be an encouragement to others.

Respect means a lot of different things.

Amen to that brothers and sisters.

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #14 on:** September 30, 2010, 10:48:46 AM »

Na hala! AMEN na laman pod ko!

hahaha taga'an jud ta Grasya sa Ginoo karon ron! hehehe! Amen, Brothers and Sisters!

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #15 on:** September 30, 2010, 10:50:58 AM »

@Lorenzo: Thanks!

For us, try not to be negative. It is easy to point out the downside of a situation, but if we make the effort to overcome our obstacles we can lead happier lives and be an encouragement to others.

Respect means a lot of different things.

Amen to that brothers and sisters.

Bernaldez, you said it all.

It was the Catholic Church that performed my baptismal mass. It will be the Catholic Church that will perform my Marriage Mass. And It will be the Catholic Church that will perform my Requiem Mass.

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Raquelproud boholana · « **Reply #16 on:** September 30, 2010, 10:57:43 AM »

This is the answer given by a friend.

Without new births, it means no income for the Catholic Church.

Calculation: 2,000,000 babies a year multiplied by P500 pesos for baptismal fee = 1,000 Million Pesos
If there are other fees, it means more hundreds of millions of pesos.

Therefore, zero birth = zero income for the Catholic Church. Sounds logical, isn't it?

Agree or disagree?

Disagree, kadaghan catholic sa atua wala pa pabunyagi ang anak kay naghuwat nga naay panghanda heheheh. Catholic paman gani nag promote sa mga married couple bahin aning natural family planning. Sa tinuod lang di kasaligan ang income aning mga bunyag,pamisa ug uban pa kay gahi na manghatag mga tawo sa atua. Sa mga develop country wala may bayad ang pagkuha ug sacrament kay daghan man ug generous gud pero sa atua mao pugson nalang jud nga pabayron sa bunyag kay tagsa ray generous donors.
Catholic church stand against birth control because it's violation of God plan. God intended the sexual act to be both love giving and life giving.

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stycxxx · « **Reply #17 on:** September 30, 2010, 11:01:52 AM »

This is the answer given by a friend.

Without new births, it means no income for the Catholic Church.

Calculation: 2,000,000 babies a year multiplied by P500 pesos for baptismal fee = 1,000 Million Pesos
If there are other fees, it means more hundreds of millions of pesos.

Therefore, zero birth = zero income for the Catholic Church. Sounds logical, isn't it?

Agree or disagree?

well, it's not only the catholic church that's against this method but some other religious sects as well. The only thing why we hear most of the time that it's the catholic church is against this it's because (1) the catholic church is very vocal about it and (2) there are more catholics in Philippines than any other religions.

I was baptised catholic but after learning some things as I grow older, I realize that religion is one of the major cause of conflicts that's why I don't believe in any other religion. I do believe in morals but we can certainly not forced our own morals to the morals of others. I know we have "universal" morals but the best thing to avoid conflict is to respect each other's morals and this is the part that most religious sects failed to do, respecting other's morals.

we know that this natural birth control has been existing for ages but this proves that this method does not actually work. Can any of the churches provide a document that the natural method works especially in the 3rd world countries like Philippines?

Catholic church is very firm on this ground about natural rhythm but does the church help the poor? HONESTLY.

Every time I pass by a catholic church, I will always see the most needy person that's waiting for alms in the doorsteps of the church. But the church doesn't seem to bother by the scenery. I find this one very, very pitiful and hypocritical. It's so sad to say that Catholic church supports the "incoming" life but does not support the life that already exists. One example is the church does not allow abortion because, the fetus is "life" and we are not certain that this "fetus" MIGHT be the future leader. The MIGHT is still an uncertainty but we all know that this fetus has a long way to go. Why not concentrate on helping people who is in misery and needs help. This is for sure that we see "life" on this stage... There are people in prison who are wrongly convicted. Why is the church doesn't have enough fervor to help these people??? Try to think about it.

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Brownman · « **Reply #18 on:** September 30, 2010, 11:02:32 AM »

Ang simbahang Katoliko is not really against family planting i mean ( planning ) what they want lang is Natural Family Planning (NFP) is an umbrella term for various forms of birth control that do not involve any hormones or physical barriers to prevent pregnancy, but instead rely on periods of abstinence during a woman's menstrual cycle. Popular forms of NFP include the rhythm method, basal body temperature charting and the Standard Days Method.

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #19 on:** September 30, 2010, 11:02:55 AM »

Disagree, kadaghan catholic sa atua wala pa pabunyagi ang anak kay naghuwat nga naay panghanda heheheh. Catholic paman gani nag promote sa mga married couple bahin aning natural family planning. Sa tinuod lang di kasaligan ang income aning mga bunyag,pamisa ug uban pa kay gahi na manghatag mga tawo sa atua. Sa mga develop country wala may bayad ang pagkuha ug sacrament kay daghan man ug generous gud pero sa atua mao pugson nalang jud nga pabayron sa bunyag kay tagsa ray generous donors.
Catholic church stand against birth control because it's violation of God plan. God intended the sexual act to be both love giving and life giving.

hehehe beautiful, Raquel.

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #20 on:** September 30, 2010, 11:11:06 AM »

Ang simbahang Katoliko is not really against family planting i mean ( planning ) what they want lang is Natural Family Planning (NFP) is an umbrella term for various forms of birth control that do not involve any hormones or physical barriers to prevent pregnancy, but instead rely on periods of abstinence during a woman's menstrual cycle. Popular forms of NFP include the rhythm method, basal body temperature charting and the Standard Days Method.

Brown,

NFPs are effective almost every-time when used appropriately.

And to add to what Raquel, Isles and the rest have said, the Roman Catholic Church is not against family planning, it is against unnatural contraceptives. Life, in essence, is holy and important, in regards to Catholic Theology and Ecclesiastic Teachings. All human life is precious and holy, and this is not prejudiced only for Catholics, but all human life.

The Catholic Church has over 1.1 billion adherents. She administers the Living Word to the faithful on daily mass, pardons the sinners before death, spreads the Holy Gospel of Christ to all the world, upholds and funds the thousands of missionary programs around the world, educates the thousands of seminarians and other holy religious life around the world. She dispenses food and aid to those that are in need when in capacity to do so. Most importantly she offers requiem masses on daily basis, provides masses for the holy souls in purgatory, to which, no amount of money can compare to.

Gloria Excelsis Deo et Gloria Catholica Ecclesia de Deus. Unom Ecclesia por Infinitum.
Amen.

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stycxxx · « **Reply #21 on:** September 30, 2010, 11:15:20 AM »

Disagree, kadaghan catholic sa atua wala pa pabunyagi ang anak kay naghuwat nga naay panghanda heheheh. Catholic paman gani nag promote sa mga married couple bahin aning natural family planning. Sa tinuod lang di kasaligan ang income aning mga bunyag,pamisa ug uban pa kay gahi na manghatag mga tawo sa atua. Sa mga develop country wala may bayad ang pagkuha ug sacrament kay daghan man ug generous gud pero sa atua mao pugson nalang jud nga pabayron sa bunyag kay tagsa ray generous donors.
Catholic church stand against birth control because it's violation of God plan. God intended the sexual act to be both love giving and life giving.

baptism and other sacrilege are becoming a business. if the church really want to give it to the people, why not just give it for free and not with fee?

religion is the easiest and fastest way to find money - (1) people believe in church, (2) church don't pay taxes (3) people give money to church, etc. there are many example why building a church is good business. just take a look or search on the net the history of the mega churches in the US on how they first started. if the church is truly there to help people, most, if not all, of the church founders of the mega church in US got luxurious cars than their patrons. Isn't that ironic and hypocritical?

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #22 on:** September 30, 2010, 11:22:02 AM »

baptism and other sacrilege are becoming a business. if the church really want to give it to the people, why not just give it for free and not with fee?

religion is the easiest and fastest way to find money - (1) people believe in church, (2) church don't pay taxes (3) people give money to church, etc. there are many example why building a church is good business. just take a look or search on the net the history of the mega churches in the US on how they first started. if the church is truly there to help people, most, if not all, of the church founders of the mega church in US got luxurious cars than their patrons. Isn't that ironic and hypocritical?

These are not Catholics, but large evangelical denominational protestant churches. These ministers are not celibate priests and nuns who pledge a life of penance, celibacy, and chastity to the Holy Church.

Through all my life, the priests that I have known here in the US drive very old cars, many of whom don't even have cars, but are given transportation by the faithful or take public transportation.

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stycxxx · « **Reply #23 on:** September 30, 2010, 11:28:01 AM »

These are not Catholics, but large evangelical denominational protestant churches. These ministers are not celibate priests and nuns who pledge a life of penance, celibacy, and chastity to the Holy Church.

Through all my life, the priests that I have known here in the US drive very old cars, many of whom don't even have cars, but are given transportation by the faithful or take public transportation.

that's the fact tho that building a church, no matter if it's catholic, protestants, it's the easiest way of making money. and it's a world wide fact that roman catholic church is the richest church in the entire world. just take a look at the luxury of how the pope is treated.

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #24 on:** September 30, 2010, 11:28:36 AM »

baptism and other sacrilege are becoming a business. if the church really want to give it to the people, why not just give it for free and not with fee?

Baptism has been the core of Catholic Teaching. It is the foundation of entrance into Christian Life. Child Baptism , a Sacred Act, introduces the child to the Catholic Church, and prepares them for their Holy Communion, and ultimately prepares them as Catechumens, who eventually receive Grace during Holy Confirmation.

The form of financial payment to the church for special masses goes for the provision of the functional duties of the church, and ultimately, is important for the dispensation of the Word of God.

Grace is given to those who are happy givers, whom God showers abundantly a thousand fold.

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stycxxx · « **Reply #25 on:** September 30, 2010, 11:30:20 AM »

and the church itself cannot address its internal problem. why show off that they can solve every one's problem if they themselves cannot resolve the internal problem that's been going on for ages - as what the funny saying says "it's difficult to solve/face the problem if the problem is your face."

the church should fix it's own dilemma first before solving other's problem.

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #26 on:** September 30, 2010, 11:34:32 AM »

that's the fact tho that building a church, no matter if it's catholic, protestants, it's the easiest way of making money. and it's a world wide fact that roman catholic church is the richest church in the entire world. just take a look at the luxury of how the pope is treated.

The Holy Roman Catholic Church is The Church. It has over 1.1 billion adherents and its improtance in spreading the Word of God is pivotal, whose main goal is for the Salvation of those whom believe. Financial aspects will be always there, as any programs will cost money, and thus The Holy Mother the Church needs to pay them. It is through the goodness of the faithful who give, and have been giving for the continuation of the spreading of the Gospel and the dispensation of Church activities.

Catholics, despite their location and their position, are The Church.

The Pope, as the Vicar of Christ, if we refer to the Doctrine of Apostolic Tradition, is the Living, Breathing Representative of Chirst on Earth. We revere him as Christ's Vicar. He carries himself accordingly and in authority.

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stycxxx · « **Reply #27 on:** September 30, 2010, 11:35:46 AM »

well, i know a lot of people are brainwashed by the church by giving them false hopes. there are plenty of conflicts within the bible. but we are being threatened that if we will question the integrity of the bible, we go to eternal damnation. who will not get scared of that?

the church cannot prove most, if not some, that is written in the bible, that's why they force to introduce to us what we call "faith" - just accept it as it is and no questions.

science has been in conflict with the findings and in constantly in conflict with the church. but science is in conflict with one another due to the new facts, new findings and new technology that they keep on rebutting their own conclusion. and this is one major basis of the church to deny the science' claim on how the universe was created.

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stycxxx · « **Reply #28 on:** September 30, 2010, 11:36:48 AM »

i don't intend to have an argument here but my intention is to let all the people have choice, open up their minds and let them choose what to believe.

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #29 on:** September 30, 2010, 11:36:56 AM »

and the church itself cannot address its internal problem. why show off that they can solve every one's problem if they themselves cannot resolve the internal problem that's been going on for ages - as what the funny saying says "it's difficult to solve/face the problem if the problem is your face."

the church should fix it's own dilemma first before solving other's problem.

All Mankind is faulted to sin, and will always err. Romans 3:23 dictates this. However, it is through Grace of God that makes what is imperfect, Perfect.

And it is the Grace of God that has been placed on the Holy Roman Catholic Church to Spread the Gospel of Christ. Since the days of Pentecost over 2000 years ago. And this will not change until the 2nd coming of the Lord.

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stycxxx · « **Reply #30 on:** September 30, 2010, 11:38:32 AM »

that is great to have a loving god. but what baffles me is if there's really a loving god, why will he allow the sinners to go to "hell"?

if you're going to tell that story to a kid, what kid wont get scared of that?

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #31 on:** September 30, 2010, 11:39:20 AM »

well, i know a lot of people are brainwashed by the church by giving them false hopes. there are plenty of conflicts within the bible. but we are being threatened that if we will question the integrity of the bible, we go to eternal damnation. who will not get scared of that?

the church cannot prove most, if not some, that is written in the bible, that's why they force to introduce to us what we call "faith" - just accept it as it is and no questions.

science has been in conflict with the findings and in constantly in conflict with the church. but science is in conflict with one another due to the new facts, new findings and new technology that they keep on rebutting their own conclusion. and this is one major basis of the church to deny the science' claim on how the universe was created.

There are no such things as false hopes in the Church. Truth is lighted in Faith. To be able to discern accordingly.

I am a scientist/medical intern, and know that science itself is not full proof or 'unchallengable'. In fact, science is filled with errors. It is part of the transgression/progression methodology in data analysis if we refer to the process of Empirical, Testable, Demonstrable Scientific Protocol.

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #32 on:** September 30, 2010, 11:40:21 AM »

that is great to have a loving god. but what baffles me is if there's really a loving god, why will he allow the sinners to go to "hell"?

if you're going to tell that story to a kid, what kid wont get scared of that?

Indeed. There is a Great, Loving God.

And yes, He Loves you too.

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stycxxx · « **Reply #33 on:** September 30, 2010, 11:44:18 AM »

truth is lighted on faith - that's the term that just believe and don't ask or no question as long as you believe even if there are conflicts.

we know darn well that there are plenty of flaws in the bible. for instance, that the earth is just a mere hundreds of thousand years old but the science dated it as millions of years old. bible says that it's a sin to eat shellfish, but why do we have shellfish and still eat them. the old testament legalizes the stoning to death and it was restated in new testament that those who don't have sins can cast the first stone. these are just a few that i can remember but certainly there are more. I am not a bible reader but certainly i have my own thinking to think what is right and what is wrong (f0r me) and I am not pushing it to have everyone believe what i believe.

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stycxxx · « **Reply #34 on:** September 30, 2010, 11:48:10 AM »

well, if that's what people find strength to have a god, then i respect that. we all have the feedom of choice and freedom to believe and freewill.

it's in human nature to find somebody more superior to guide them like president, leaders, mayors and for the most superior one, is "god"

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #35 on:** September 30, 2010, 11:57:10 AM »

truth is lighted on faith - that's the term that just believe and don't ask or no question as long as you believe even if there are conflicts.

we know darn well that there are plenty of flaws in the bible. for instance, that the earth is just a mere hundreds of thousand years old but the science dated it as millions of years old. bible says that it's a sin to eat shellfish, but why do we have shellfish and still eat them. the old testament legalizes the stoning to death and it was restated in new testament that those who don't have sins can cast the first stone. these are just a few that i can remember but certainly there are more. I am not a bible reader but certainly i have my own thinking to think what is right and what is wrong (f0r me) and I am not pushing it to have everyone believe what i believe.

The Holy Bible was written by men that were of faith, and we refer to them, and its writings in scriptural symbolism.

My friend, you have very good points, and your questions can be answered quite easily by reading the Bible from cover to cover.
In regards to shellfish, that is seen in chapter 18 of Leviticus, in the Old Testament (prior to Christ's coming), and this was overturned later in the new testament when Christ said:

14Again Jesus called the crowd to him and said, "Listen to me, everyone, and understand this. 15Nothing outside a man can make him 'unclean' by going into him. Rather, it is what comes out of a man that makes him 'unclean.' "

17After he had left the crowd and entered the house, his disciples asked him about this parable. 18"Are you so dull?" he asked. "Don't you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him 'unclean'? 19For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body." (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods "clean.")

-Mark 7:14-18

In regards to the 'Casting of the Stone', this refers to Christ's interjection of the would-be stoners of Mary of Magdalene. In doing so, Christ tells us that none is righteous or free of sin (Romans 3:23 clarifies this). Jesus Christ, in doing this, told the pharisees, Sadducees and all jewish men at the time that God is the judge of all things. Christ makes this so when he asked Mary Magdalene, "Where are your accusers?" And when Mary Magdalene looked back, all of them walked away, humbled by Christ's Truth.

Understanding the Bible requires reading it from cover to cover, and not judging it, because, likewise, most of your uncertainties and questions will be answered when accomplishing it.

Regards.

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vrglguapo · « **Reply #36 on:** September 30, 2010, 11:59:40 AM »

.God is everywhere. You don't have to be a Catholics to go to heaven. The Catholics religion in Europe or even in Vatican is rocked with scandals.Phedophile priest,the use of church money for thier own pleasure. Like gambling and women. Here in Ireland the land of Saints sad to say very few people go to church on Sundays.

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stycxxx · « **Reply #37 on:** September 30, 2010, 12:01:44 PM »

i read it once but there are certainly plenty of questions that cannot be answered. one thing that really bugs me is if he is truly a loving god, why did he still use his "son" to bridge and forgive our sins? why did he not just make it magically disappear or forgive if he is all that powerful?

these are just some little things that needed to be answered but it's also trivial that most people don't even bother to ask.

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #38 on:** September 30, 2010, 12:03:32 PM »

well, if that's what people find strength to have a god, then i respect that. we all have the feedom of choice and freedom to believe and freewill.

it's in human nature to find somebody more superior to guide them like president, leaders, mayors and for the most superior one, is "god"

Yes, of course. We need to find the dichotomy between Religion and Faith. I think that the discord happens when one intertwines religion with the other.

Think of it as religion as a process, the pathway, so to say, a guide to an intended goal. Faith, is the blessing and the rich gift, unfathomable and beyond comparison in all materialistic things. Faith is the source, the wellspring that connects the finite to the infinite. The finite being perishable man. The infinite being the Loving Eternal God.

All of us have the right to believe in what we want (or not believe).

But there is beauty in Faith. Faith is essential in all things. Just as how a husband has faith in his wife (and vice versa). Just as how a child has faith that his mother and father will always help him and be there for him. It is the same as how a Christian (Catholic or non-catholic) has faith in the Saving Grace of Jesus Christ....

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stycxxx · « **Reply #39 on:** September 30, 2010, 12:06:19 PM »

yes, faith is essential. but we cannot equate the faith on the the person we really see and we really trust. the "faith in god" is another story....

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