Author Topic: Celdran: No regrets for 'Damaso' protest (Read 5810 times)

kan-ogong · « **on:** October 01, 2010, 07:53:13 PM »

MANILA, Philippines (UPDATE) - Controversial tour guide Carlos Celdran was freed on bail Friday but could face even more sanctions after disrupting Mass at the Manila Cathedral Thursday to protest the Catholic Church's stance against contraceptives.

Celdran walked free from the Manila Police District Station 5 in Ermita at 4:30 p.m. after posting P6,000 bail before the sala of executive judge Sara Almalin of Metropolitan Trial Court branch 15.

The tour guide was arrested and charged with violating Article 133 of the Revised Penal Code after raising a ruckus during Thursday's ecumenical service at the Manila Cathedral.

Police said Celdran, wearing a dark suit and top hat, started shouting and held up the placard with the word "Damaso" in the the middle of a homily.

"Damaso" refers to Father Damaso, an abusive priest who is a character in Jose Rizalâ€™s novel "Noli Me Tangere."

Celdran has apologized for the manner of his protest but not the content of his message.

"I don't blame anybody for what happened. Wala akong sinisisi. Pinaninindigan ko yung ginawa ko. Wala akong regrets. No regrets at all," he told radio dzMM.

Celdran, a much sought-after tour guide in Intramuros, said he made the demonstration to protest the Catholic Church's position against contraceptives.

"I am a Catholic and born Catholic. Marami Catholic sa Pilipinas who are very disappointed with the position of the church because it is anti-women's rights, anti-gay rights and anti-human rights especially when it comes to reproductive health. Ngayong nasa kulungan ako, we can see na anti-freedom of speech din sila," he said.

"Nakakatakot ang precedent na ito, na they have the power to put people in prison like the time of Jose Rizal. If you protest against the church and the bishops, you get hauled to jail. It sends a very scary message to Filipinos when priests can put you in jail," he said.

In response, the clergy of the Archdiocese of Manila issued a statement condemning Celdran's action and urged the Intramuros administration to make him account for his actions. The clergy consists of 238 priests assigned to 85 parishes, 2 chapels, 3 shrines, and hospitals and schools.

The statement said Celdran "willfully and with premeditation executed his protest inside the Manila Cathedral the church of the Archbishop and the seat of the Archdiocese of the Manila. The church is the Mother Church in the Archdiocese and is the central place for worship of the entire flock of the Archdiocese. This is the church where the past Archbishops of Manila are buried (in its crypt). This is where the Cathedra (seat) and the seal (coat of arms) of the Archbishop of Manila are displayed to symbolize his office, an appointment that comes directly from the Holy See."

The clergy said Celdran showed blatant disrespect for Manila Archbishop Gaudencio Rosales, the Apostolic Nuncio to the Philippines Archbishop Edward Joseph Adams and the bishops and priests and representatives of other religions present during the worship service.

It said the tour guide "disrupted the religious proceedings which included reading from the Sacred Scriptures, and preened in front of the altar with his offensive poster. Unstopped (because no one was prepared for such brazen action) he repeatedly pointed his poster towards the religious leaders and at the sacred altar, and at one time even shouted. When he was being peaceably led out of the Cathedral he shouted invectives."

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Koddi Prudente · « **Reply #1 on:** October 02, 2010, 12:22:20 AM »

Pastilan ... pareha ra na sa pari nga nangawkaw ... scot-free kay gidapigan sa obispo.

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #2 on:** October 02, 2010, 01:22:29 PM »

Even if he disagreed with ecclesiastic decision, he could have expressed his differences in other venues , per se in a formal meeting with church officials. His blatant disregard towards the feelings of others and worship not only desecrated Holy Mass , but agitated many celebrants there.

He claims to be Catholic , yet has the indecency to show such disregard.

Give honor and respect where it is due. Before the Sacred Eucharist and the Altar of God...

Give me a break. This man has no decency. Walang Class...

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JellyBean · « **Reply #3 on:** October 02, 2010, 01:45:55 PM »

I am glad you have brought this up Lorenzo about talking thing over with Church personal and officials....

It just so happened yesterday my friend I had run into a Church nun here at BQ I asked if the country is so dominated in Catholic faith then why is it when they (Catholics) try to control over birth control matters in the nation then why cannot they also at the same time try to lower the prices with foods in the grocer stores.

Things here have gotten really expensive with out a doubt.

When standing in grocery store check out lanes you can see more now days that people in the line in the front of you are having to put back more groceries because what they had been budgeted for a long time is becoming so out of control in how things are constantly rising in price here.

Now back to the nun/sister....she could not answer the question.

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #4 on:** October 02, 2010, 02:08:15 PM »

I am glad you have brought this up Lorenzo about talking thing over with Church personal and officials....

It just so happened yesterday my friend I had run into a Church nun here at BQ I asked if the country is so dominated in Catholic faith then why is it when they (Catholics) try to control over birth control matters in the nation then why cannot they also at the same time try to lower the prices with foods in the grocer stores.

Things here have gotten really expensive with out a doubt.

When standing in grocery store check out lanes you can see more now days that people in the line in the front of you are having to put back more groceries because what they had been budgeted for a long time is becoming so out of control in how things are constantly rising in price here.

Now back to the nun/sister....Her reply to me was not a great one she just shuddered and could not answer he question.

It like asking a Catholic why they are baptized as Catholic? it is not always for the knowledge of the faith it is because even as young innocent babies the Catholics will baptize them because the parents were and the grandparents are Catholics.

Even the Catholics as well as other religions are not going by the words of the bible...I see it and I am sure God sees it as insulting when innocent babies and children before age of eight are being baptized.

Let that child gain knowledge for himself when he is old enough to understand and also the right to choose his own religion....

Priscilla,

Thank you for your post. The Catholic Church has no control on the fiscal economy, so therefore, it cannot reduce the prices of food (tho I wish She could!!!), however, its importance and role is exemplified in the human structure, the basic family structure, and the natural process of child birth, conception, and the natural process of aging, and death.

When I was in Bohol , I was rather impressed with the improvements in the province, as compared to my memory of how life was like some 20 years ago. When i was in ICM, BQ, Alturas etc, i saw alot of customers and the heavy amount of goods they were buying, which I guess could reflect the overall growth of the people, and stability in general. I think it is unfair, Priscilla, for us to compare American society (with its plenitude) to a nation like the Philippines which is still growing and modernizing.

In regards to your comment on child baptism being unbiblical, I suggest you read more into the bible. Mind you, Priscilla, it was not the Protestant Churches or the LDS (Latter Day Saints) that wrote the bible; in fact the LDS don't have a bible, but have a 'second' book written in accordance to J. Smith. (I have my reservations towards that, but that is a topic for another day)

You might be surprised to hear this, Priscilla, but it was the Roman Catholic Church that wrote, compiled, and ratified the Holy Bible. As in all things. The authority is hers, through Grace of God.

To answer your query,
Here is a verse for you:

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.
-Acts 2: 38-39

Then were there brought unto him little children, that he should put his hands on them, and pray: and the disciples rebuked them. But Jesus said, Suffer not the little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.
-Matthew 19:13-14

Best,
Lorenzo

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JellyBean · « **Reply #5 on:** October 02, 2010, 02:21:05 PM »

The book you are referring to is "The Book of Mormon"

By a prophet Joseph Smith.

Mormons also have a bible just like yours and mine for reference and they have other books on doctrine and covenants, priesthood, and also the bible....King James version.

He he he as you said another topic for another day buddy!!!

ingat!!!

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #6 on:** October 02, 2010, 02:24:20 PM »

The book you are referring to is "The Book of Mormon"

By a prophet Joseph Smith.

Mormons also have a bible just like yours and mine for reference and they have other books on doctrine and covenants, priesthood, and also the bible....King James version.

He he he as you said another topic for another day buddy!!!

ingat!!!

The Book of Mormon is not the Bible.

And I personally do not recognize any other bible versions (Unless it be the Complete, Unadulterated Catholic Holy Bible; the original)

King James Version of the Bible omitted over 7 books from the Holy Bible. It is not the complete form. I do not read protestant versions of the bible, but the Only True and Complete Form: The Roman Catholic Holy Bible.

Take care, Priscilla.

Truly,
Lorenzo

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jas4 · « **Reply #7 on:** October 02, 2010, 02:42:27 PM »

decency? So it's okay for priests to voice out their stand against RH bill in church and in public but those who agree with the bill the should go where again?

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #8 on:** October 02, 2010, 02:49:05 PM »

Clearly you didn't read properly. It was never said that the Catholic Church was against protesting, but the manner of protest is quite obvious. The reasons for Celdran's arrest is due to his interruption of Catholic Mass in utmost loss of decorum.

There is a dichotomy one needs to differentiate: The right to protest and the manner in how one protests; the latter of course needs to ascribe to national laws and bylaws.

Don't confuse them both; discord , as is seen in your post, manifests.

In regards to the article and the situation, Celdron was found wanting.

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jas4 · « **Reply #9 on:** October 02, 2010, 02:57:42 PM »

i get your point but you didn't get mine.

plain and simple lang, nganong ang pari during sa misa pwede man motira against such bill? besides, dili lang sa kana nga topic. how come these people when they protest and interrupt government business okay ra man? klaro ana one sided ang simbahan.

same issue here. if ikaw motira nako, okay ra ko. but if ikaw maigo, unsa imong gibuhat, di ba BAN dayun?

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #10 on:** October 02, 2010, 03:04:06 PM »

i get your point but you didn't get mine.

plain and simple lang, nganong ang pari during sa misa pwede man motira against such bill? besides, dili lang sa kana nga topic. how come these people when they protest and interrupt government business okay ra man? klaro ana one sided ang simbahan.

same issue here. if ikaw motira nako, okay ra ko. but if ikaw maigo, unsa imong gibuhat, di ba BAN dayun?

Of course I understood your message, that is why I enunciated the dichotomy of : the right to protest and the manner of protesting.

People in the Republic of the Philippines have the right to protest and voice concern, but in accordance and respect to the rights of others. In regards to your rhetorical question on why Catholic priests voice their opposition to this bill; they are doing this not for political reasons, but because it transgresses against the core tenet of the Catholic Principle of the Holiness of Family Life, which has been an agenda for over 2 millenia. Since the Church officials are sharing the views of the Church towards those of the faithful (and in many cases, inside the Catholic Church), there is no negative interjection implied.

On the contrary, Celdron's actions was a direct infringement against the celebrants of Mass, against Republic Act that guarantees the right to Worship, and was a manifestation of a blatant disregard of the national and constitutional rights of the hundreds of people in that church who wanted to worship Mass.

Because of his indecency and blatant disregard of the law, he was arrested, punished and exposed.

Again, I reiterate, Celdron was found wanting.

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jas4 · « **Reply #11 on:** October 02, 2010, 03:09:36 PM »

Republic Act? Right?

Sus mao ra jud na ilang gikyawkyaw yet they don't pay taxes. While naay uyamut nga pinoy nga trabahante, nagbayad ug tax yet dili man gani ka enjoy sa iyang right to have choices kay ang simbahan dili mosugot.

Of course I understood your message, that is why I enunciated the dichotomy of : the right to protest and the manner of protesting.

People in the Republic of the Philippines have the right to protest and voice concern, but in accordance and respect to the rights of others. In regards to your rhetorical question on why Catholic priests voice their opposition to this bill; they are doing this not for political reasons, but because it transgresses against the core tenet of the Catholic Principle of the Holiness of Family Life, which , has been an agenda for over 2 millenia. Since the Church officials are sharing the views of the Church towards those of the faithful (and in many cases, inside the Catholic Church), there is no negative interjection implied. On the contrary, the actions of Celdron was a direct infringement against the celebrants of Mass, against Republic Act that guarantees the right to Worship, and was a manifestation of a blatant disregard of the national and constitutional rights of the hundreds of people in that church.

Again, I reiterate, Celdron was found wanting.

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #12 on:** October 02, 2010, 03:11:57 PM »

Republic Act? Right?

Sus mao ra jud na ilang gikyawkyaw yet they don't pay taxes. While naay uyamut nga pinoy nga trabahante, nagbayad ug tax yet dili man gani ka enjoy sa iyang right to have choices kay ang simbahan dili mosugot.

Article 133 of the Revised Penal Code, to be exact.

Art. 133. Offending the religious feelings. — The penalty of arresto mayor in its maximum period to prision correccional in its minimum period shall be imposed upon anyone who, in a place devoted to religious worship or during the celebration of any religious ceremony shall perform acts notoriously offensive to the feelings of the faithful.

The Law is The Law.

Again, Celdron was found wanting and violated the Law. THUS, it is important to understand the DICHOTOMY between the constitutional right to protest and the manner in how one protest, so it does not violate national laws and bylaws.

I rest my case.

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bol-anon nga cebuano · « **Reply #13 on:** October 03, 2010, 05:57:03 AM »

nagdako nga nag alagad sa diyos isip sacristan sud sa taas nga higayon. usa ko sa moangkon nga grabe na kaayo ang kausaban karon sa patakaran sa simbahan labi na anang bahin sa kasal, bunyag ug confirmation. daghan na kaayong mga requisitos nga gikinahanglan nga kung dili nimo ma accomplish aw dili jud ka mabunyagan, makasal or makompirmahan. unya sagad maigo ani ang kadtong mga yano ug ordinaryong tawo. kanang requirement lang nga certification gikan sa cluster sa BEC, kung wala ka ana dili ka makasal. labi pa ug wala kay kaila sa parokya nga imong kaslan or bunyagan. ngano man laging dali ra man kaayo kaslon ang mga adunahan bisan klaro kaayo nga dili na sila tig-apil anang cluster meeting sa BEC. i dunno ug kahibawo ba na sila ug unsa nang BEC. kay dako siguro ug hinatagan ug offerings o di ba kaha donation.

sakto si jas4, kung ang mga obispo ug pari motira sa mga state related issues anha sa simbahan, iapil sa wali nya buhatan pa ug pangadye kanang ilang gitawag ug oratio imperata. dili ra magprotesta ang taga gobyerno. pero kung simbahan na gani ang tirahan sa gobyerno dayon ug protesta ug hulga. naay pay mga official nga kung kusog kaayo mohatag ug donation sa simbahan dili jud ka kadungog ug dauton sa mga naa sa simbahan pero kung dili gani tighatagan aw, pagawas dayon storya nga si kuan kay kuan ug maoy kuan. asa man diha ang hustisya nga sige nila ug singgit? di nako magwonder nga naay luag ug pagtoo nga mobalhin sa laing tinuhoan o di gani mag atheist nalang.
tsk tsk tsk.

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jas4 · « **Reply #14 on:** October 03, 2010, 06:29:21 AM »

Klaro...

Kusog modemand sa ilang right nya di man gani mobayad ug tax!

nagdako nga nag alagad sa diyos isip sacristan sud sa taas nga higayon. usa ko sa moangkon nga grabe na kaayo ang kausaban karon sa patakaran sa simbahan labi na anang bahin sa kasal, bunyag ug confirmation. daghan na kaayong mga requisitos nga gikinahanglan nga kung dili nimo ma accomplish aw dili jud ka mabunyagan, makasal or makompirmahan. unya sagad maigo ani ang kadtong mga yano ug ordinaryong tawo. kanang requirement lang nga certification gikan sa cluster sa BEC, kung wala ka ana dili ka makasal. labi pa ug wala kay kaila sa parokya nga imong kaslan or bunyagan. ngano man laging dali ra man kaayo kaslon ang mga adunahan bisan klaro kaayo nga dili na sila tig-apil anang cluster meeting sa BEC. i dunno ug kahibawo ba na sila ug unsa nang BEC. kay dako siguro ug hinatagan ug offerings o di ba kaha donation.

sakto si jas4, kung ang mga obispo ug pari motira sa mga state related issues anha sa simbahan, iapil sa wali nya buhatan pa ug pangadye kanang ilang gitawag ug oratio imperata. dili ra magprotesta ang taga gobyerno. pero kung simbahan na gani ang tirahan sa gobyerno dayon ug protesta ug hulga. naay pay mga official nga kung kusog kaayo mohatag ug donation sa simbahan dili jud ka kadungog ug dauton sa mga naa sa simbahan pero kung dili gani tighatagan aw, pagawas dayon storya nga si kuan kay kuan ug maoy kuan. asa man diha ang hustisya nga sige nila ug singgit? di nako magwonder nga naay luag ug pagtoo nga mobalhin sa laing tinuhoan o di gani mag atheist nalang.
tsk tsk tsk.

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JellyBean · « **Reply #15 on:** October 03, 2010, 01:56:52 PM »

I have seen what I have seen here.

I often ask thyself on a Sunday when I observe someone coming from the church and just minutes after that the wife is home with the kids while the papa is out drinking tuba with barkadas on the street corners....or going to the cock pit to gamble....

I ask myself.....And I wonder what family values were learned while attending church on that particular Sunday sevice. I sit in an internet cafe now on a Sunday and it is very full in here....

To me family values means taking your only day off if your spouse is not an OFW and spend time together as a family.

I drive in between the Cathedral and the police station and in front of the COMELEC office on a rainy night out of many nights there sleeps three poor families....If I want to learn any family values then I want to see the church helping these people get their feet off the ground.... That to me is the best kind of teaching as it is setting an example.

If the churches are exempt of paying tax and passing the basket two-three times in a mass here as I have observed then where in the world is that money going to?

Why would the Philippines constitute any act in the Philippines saying that the church can interfere with government and people decisions?

Many persons asking alms here more today then there were ten years ago.....

I never said the Book of Mormon was a bible you said that they do not have a bible....You dear friend should read it and the doctorin and covenance wow talk about history and non stop reading....

Have you ever observed how they have family nights how they all get together and help people out in their homes or in the business?

It is all done from the love of how god wants us to be.

Are you aware that Mormons fast so that they can give what they would spend on meals to other people who are to poor to pay even a rice once a day?

that of course is aside from the tithing....

Jesus was submerged in the river of Jordan wearing all white and the river is salty he was not baptized wearing any color and baptized by water in a plastic bottle.....

Baptism should be original and special just as how Jesus was baptized by David the Baptist!

Baptism is a total cleansing of the body in order for us to receive the holy ghost/spirit to be with us...

That's how i read history...

I think the Catholic church here in Philippines is really different in how it is run in states.

The church back home is charitable.

Where does the money go that is paid to the collection baskets here?

I know they are not paying air con and I know they are not paying for heat bill......

I even tried to make a suggestion to have the church donate a portion of unused parking lot to allow vendors to vend for a few hours in order to make money for their families.

Are these persons not Catholic and law abiding and trying to support their families...then what is wrong with the problem with my suggestion to help people here?

he he he I was threatened to have the police called on me just for making that suggestion.....and lambasted at that I was not a Catholic.....get my point.......so righteous and so discriminate and they say they are persons under GOD??? I am sorry there are things that bother me....or confuse me on how God should really be.... and that is a loving God and that means taking care of ourselves and our brothers and sisters regardless what faith they may be....or not be....I had recorded that church person and it was played over DYRD as so unbelievable and so unreal...people were pulling off to the side of the road to hear it clearly. The person did not know they were being recorded at the time...I was as nice as could be...and it was labeled as unbecoming from DYRD anchormen....and the community...this was already a long time ago....

In this matter it is a topic that involves both church and state......so if government is protested as rep of the people and why not the churches?

Look at the population here....do you really think natural family planning works?....resources say a lot and there are not much here... example Philippines like to eat plenty of sweets, now we have sugar shortage here and many who are diabetic and now one kilo sugar is almost 59 pesos do to shortages of the product....many foods are high in price many people having babies that are hard to eat do to lack or little money here....for some....

I know many Catholic persons are also for the RH bill but they are afraid to let the church see how they really feel.....

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Scarb · « **Reply #16 on:** October 03, 2010, 10:09:42 PM »

I never said the Book of Mormon was a bible you said that they do not have a bible....

You dear friend should read it and the doctorin and covenance wow talk about history and non stop reading....

Ajeje, if U believed that Book of Mormon is the assurance of heaven's gate..ok go...it should be respected

And if Lorenzo told U thus Catholic bible is the original one,then that's what he believeth..and so, be it..ok?

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Scarb · « **Reply #17 on:** October 03, 2010, 10:42:54 PM »

I drive in between the Cathedral and the police station and in front of the COMELEC office on a rainy night out of many nights there sleeps three poor families....

If I want to learn any family values then I want to see the church helping these people get their feet off the ground....
That to me is the best kind of teaching as it is setting an example.

The Church (church personnel) couldn't have ears and eyes to everyone,
but i think they are always there to open the door
when somebody knock..klops..knockÂ§. ughs

The Church has its own ordinance and routine to follow,
am pretty sure the Church isnt likewise a "Social Welfare Institute" capichie?

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Scarb · « **Reply #18 on:** October 03, 2010, 11:04:49 PM »

he he he I was threatened to have the police called on me just for making that suggestion.....and lambasted at that I was not a Catholic.....get my point.......so righteous and so discriminate and they say they are persons under GOD??? I am sorry there are things that bother me....or confuse me on how God should really be.... and that is a loving God and that means taking care of ourselves and our brothers and sisters regardless what faith they may be....or not be....
I had recorded that church person and it was played over DYRD as so unbelievable and so unreal...people were pulling off to the side of the road to hear it clearly. The person did not know they were being recorded at the time...I was as nice as could be...and it was labeled as unbecoming from DYRD anchormen....and the community...this was already a long time ago....

Oh man. twas a triumph for yah ha? Bravozimous..heeÂ³

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Scarb · « **Reply #19 on:** October 03, 2010, 11:12:25 PM »

I ask myself.....And I wonder what family values were learned while attending church on that particular Sunday sevice.
I sit in an internet cafe now on a Sunday and it is very full in here....

No need to wonder why..

offices and schools are closed..its Sunday nyahaha

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Scarb · « **Reply #20 on:** October 03, 2010, 11:19:45 PM »

I think the Catholic church here in Philippines is really different in how it is run in states.

Ah ja klaro, logisch..!

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #21 on:** October 03, 2010, 11:39:21 PM »

The Church (church personnel) couldn't have ears and eyes to everyone,
but i think they are always there to open the door
when somebody knock..klops..knockÂ§. ughs

The Church has its own ordinance and routine to follow,
am pretty sure the Church isnt likewise a "Social Welfare Institute" capichie?

So very true, Ms. Blue. The role of the Church is to provide spiritual and social guidance, of which the faithful have the right to listen or not listen. And when it does provide aid, it does so through appropriate channels: CRS (catholic relief services, catholic adoption agencies, CAFOD (Catholic Funding for Overseas Development), and so much more (too many to list!)

And to answer Jas4 & Priscilla: It's not just the Catholic Church that doesn't pay taxes, this goes for all religious institutions, meaning that other christian denominational churches, mormon temples, jewish temples, muslim mosques etc are under this same umbrella.
Even here in the United States, Christian Churches, Buddhist temples, Muslim mosques, Jewish temples etc are exempt from taxes.
It's not just a Philippine case-scenario.

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #22 on:** October 03, 2010, 11:47:16 PM »

Ah ja klaro, logisch..!

Utterly and truly. Different nations have different cultures and methods of doing things, with respect to the local culture.

For Priscilla to try to compare how the culture in the United States (which is a mix-mash of culture(s) is quite weak; there is no harmonious homogeneous 'American' Culture, since this country is composed of immigrants to begin with). Secondly, the way things are done in one country will differ to another. Just as how a Catholic Church in Rome will differ in regards to local culture and belief to the Catholic Church and parishoners in Japan, in South Korea, in the Philippines, in the United States, in South Africa etc.

It's all part of the multicultural dynamic that makes the Roman Catholic Church 'universal'; and accepted globally as the teachers of faith and religious/social life.

I find no basis on anyone's presumptions and bias on the Catholic Church and how it conducts its ecclesiastic duties in Bohol, Philippines; and take no weight on her negative view on the church. Just like how many of us should note of the plethora of sexual abuse, sexual scandals, polygamy cases involving traditional mormon communities in Utah, USA. Then again, such generalizations don't speak up for most, if not all Mormons (LDS).

Best,

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jas4 · « **Reply #23 on:** October 04, 2010, 03:32:11 AM »

And to answer Jas4 & Priscilla: It's not just the Catholic Church that doesn't pay taxes, this goes for all religious institutions, meaning that other christian denominational churches, mormon temples, jewish temples, muslim mosques etc are under this same umbrella.
Even here in the United States, Christian Churches, Buddhist temples, Muslim mosques, Jewish temples etc are exempt from taxes.
It's not just a Philippine case-scenario.

But it's only the Catholic Church ang nagsige ug pang-attriber sa Panggobyerno sa Pilipinas! Mga dagkong hilabtanun! Pero wa magtan-aw sa ilang grupo nga perting daghanang pari ug madre nga naay anak while naa sa ilang vox of celibacy!

Abi nako rest my case???

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #24 on:** October 04, 2010, 08:00:24 AM »

But it's only the Catholic Church ang nagsige ug pang-attriber sa Panggobyerno sa Pilipinas! Mga dagkong hilabtanun! Pero wa magtan-aw sa ilang grupo nga perting daghanang pari ug madre nga naay anak while naa sa ilang vox of celibacy!

The Catholic Church has the right to talk and give concern in regards to political upheaval, as it looks for the general good and the faith life of the people. (Not to mention that over 80% of the Philippine population Is Roman Catholic)It is a constitutional right!

As for your comment on catholic priests and nuns having outside families (this has nothing to do with the bill at hand; in fact, if the so called priests and nuns that you talked about were actively aborting children, then this would be an act of hypocrisy, but since they retain the child, it is a responsible act). Where are the numbers and official paper work that can legitimize your claim of 'perting daghang'? Unless you give proper documentation and official numbers, instead of accusations and hearsay, there is no credibility.

The Catholic Church will continue to voice its concern in the Philippines.

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #25 on:** October 04, 2010, 08:13:37 AM »

But it's only the Catholic Church ang nagsige ug pang-attriber sa Panggobyerno sa Pilipinas! Mga dagkong hilabtanun! Pero wa magtan-aw sa ilang grupo nga perting daghanang pari ug madre nga naay anak while naa sa ilang vox of celibacy!

Government deserves to be opposed in some cases and not be accepted on every policy it enacts. You yourself , in many of your posts in the past are quite negative towards the Philippine government, as with crass comments. Why the switch in agenda?

And additionally, the Roman Catholic Church has the right to oppose any bill, as does any other insitution and group of people. As do members of the Iglesia Ni Christo, Aglipayans, as well as other denominational churches.

The problem here, as in regards to the article at hand; is the manner how one protests and shows a point of view. Celdran, in this point, was found at fault, violating Article 133 of the Revised Penal Code of The Republic of the Philippines, and thus, was arrested and exposed.

The Catholic Church, in this case, was found harassed for voicing its concern and opposition to the bill. There were no laws violated by the Catholic Church, in fact, it is through appropriate channels and formal dialogue that it channels its concern. Not like Celdran who comes into a House of Worship and disturbs the hundreds that were gathering for worship.

Again, know the difference between the dichotomy between: 1) The right to protest and 2) The manner in how one protests (in accordance to national laws and bylaws).

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kan-ogong · « **Reply #26 on:** October 04, 2010, 08:21:53 PM »

But it's only the Catholic Church ang nagsige ug pang-attriber sa Panggobyerno sa Pilipinas! Mga dagkong hilabtanun! Pero wa magtan-aw sa ilang grupo nga perting daghanang pari ug madre nga naay anak while naa sa ilang vox of celibacy!

Abi nako rest my case???

[/quot

katoliko ako pero naka saway nako sa mga pari karon sa pang hilabot sa goberno.In 1952 wala pata ma tawo ani si Senator Claro M Recto Bill nga iapil ang Noli Me Tangere ug El Felibusteresmo sa Spanish subject ni protesta ang mga pari nag rallydili sila mosugot. Kinsa nag papatay sa igsoon ni Dagohoy. ngano man nag rebelde si Dagohoy?Kita mga Bol-anon ang atong mga katiguwangan biktima sa pang abuso sa mga pari.grade 1 pa ako among pari sa Clarin dako kaayo ug bakos manlatigo sa plaza sa mga bata nag duwa.ila na unta usbon ilaha batasan. Pareho sa mga maestra ba sa una kusog kaayo mangkunot sa bugan.mandukol . mamunal sa ila stick ug di kamao. Pero karon dili na pwede ang mga maestra mo dapat sa atoa mga anak. dako na kayo kaso karon. Pamate sa mga pari sila pa ang hari.Amo silingan gi paangkan ug pari taga Tagbi.

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chriswise · « **Reply #27 on:** October 04, 2010, 09:00:14 PM »

The Book of Mormon is not the Bible.

And I personally do not recognize any other bible versions (Unless it be the Complete, Unadulterated Catholic Holy Bible; the original)

King James Version of the Bible omitted over 7 books from the Holy Bible. It is not the complete form. I do not read protestant versions of the bible, but the Only True and Complete Form: The Roman Catholic Holy Bible.

Take care, Priscilla.

Truly,
Lorenzo

Yes totoo yon,,yong mormons kasama yon sa listahan kolto....
magpasalamat nga tayo sa catholic church merong tagapangalaga sa BIBLE nasa rome at UK ang original text nang bible na preserve pa...so toto ong walang edited yon.....last 1999 i read a bible from JCL yata..diko na masyadong matandaan,,nagtaka ako meron doon verses na wala halimbawa 24 kasunod 26 na,,,,,di ko lobos ma isip paano nila magawang edit yong salita nang dios mismo,,so isa lang ibig sabihin,,,,,gawa2x lang religion nila,,,,pag meron mag preach sa inyo tingnan nyo bible nila,,,

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chriswise · « **Reply #28 on:** October 04, 2010, 09:07:02 PM »

Pastilan ... pareha ra na sa pari nga nangawkaw ... scot-free kay gidapigan sa obispo.

Isa lang naman ibig sabihin nang taong ito...nagpasikat lang,,sumakay lang kong anong in ngayon,,e paano siya makilala kon di siya nag protest diba,,baka may balak pa itong mag artista og mag politika......tingnan nyo yong mga congressmen na may balak higher posistion,,,fight nang fight sa congresso kahit walang wala naman,,para lang sa exposure ba,,,,,,pangpahatak nang audience sa sarili.....

Ikaw...anong masabi mo halimbawa magnanakaw yong relatives mo,,tapos sabihin nang tao pati ikaw magnanakaw din,,wala kanamang ginawa.........just example just think twice before husga,,,para patas sa iba,,,,,,,

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JellyBean · « **Reply #29 on:** October 05, 2010, 02:47:52 AM »

Fact today is LDS if they are caught now a days with having more than one wife at a time it is curtains to that member. It has been sometime now that it has been outlawed in that faith.

Could you please present to this forum some paperwork and documented proofs on all this stuff that the Catholic church is helping with here in Philippines or Bohol?

Something about those mama Mary statues and other Catholic statues sort of spooks me when I see them and especially when they are moving them in a parade...

Other tell me the same thing....

Its okay tattoo up your body pierce it with a million holes and poison it with alcohol and addictive caffeine drinks...after all it was how God made us born in how to respect our bodies like a good castle...

I know what the bible says about that but it is known to have been twisted and translated at the same time...

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chriswise · « **Reply #30 on:** October 05, 2010, 01:54:11 PM »

para sa akin po,kahit anong religion ok lang,,nasa tao lang yon,sa mga gawa niya...in our times dami na pariha ni THOMAS.....

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Chongki · « **Reply #31 on:** October 05, 2010, 02:01:58 PM »

.... the train?

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chriswise · « **Reply #32 on:** October 05, 2010, 03:50:24 PM »

Tama po kayo sir lorenzo..kahit sinong individual puedi mag protest pero nasa tamang paraan.hindi yong gaya nang nang yari,,,at alam naman natin sa lahat nang religion Catholic yong palaging tinitira e..,,.ugaling pinoy yon sinong nasa taas hinahatak pababa,,,sana mag tulongan tayo para sa bayan natin para sa ating lahat,,uunlad patayo,,

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vhinz08 · « **Reply #33 on:** October 05, 2010, 04:56:16 PM »

Klaro...

Kusog modemand sa ilang right nya di man gani mobayad ug tax!

Any religious organization are exempted from paying tax not only the catholic church brod.

nagdako nga nag alagad sa diyos isip sacristan sud sa taas nga higayon. usa ko sa moangkon nga grabe na kaayo ang kausaban karon sa patakaran sa simbahan labi na anang bahin sa kasal, bunyag ug confirmation. daghan na kaayong mga requisitos nga gikinahanglan nga kung dili nimo ma accomplish aw dili jud ka mabunyagan, makasal or makompirmahan. unya sagad maigo ani ang kadtong mga yano ug ordinaryong tawo. kanang requirement lang nga certification gikan sa cluster sa BEC, kung wala ka ana dili ka makasal. labi pa ug wala kay kaila sa parokya nga imong kaslan or bunyagan.

Sakto ang imong gi ingon brod BNC nga daghan ug requisitos ang simbahan karon.
Usa man pod ako ka sakristan sud sa pipila lang ka tuig namatngunan pod nako na grabe na kaayo ang kahilayan karon nga gikabisihan sa mga tao kompara sa una.

Ngano man nga gi himo man ning requirements sa simbahan, lisod ba kining buhaton isip usa ka kristyano?
Ngano man? Ang kahilayan sa atong kumunidad mao ang nakapahilayo sa mga tao diha sa simbahan dili parehas kaniadtong unang panahon nga pipila lang kanato ang nay TV, wala pay mga internet sa una nga gikabisihan karon sa mga kabataan, mga hamtong ug dili lang sila pati na ang mga idaran mi apil napod niini, ug dili lang kay kini anaa pay lain gawas niini.
Busa, gihimo kini isip usa sa mga gikinahanglan aron maaktibo ang mga membro dili lang sa pagka ngalang katoliko kon dili usab diha sa buhat pinaagi sa pag-apil sa mga aktibidades diha sa simbahan, nga gipakaylap diha sa GKK diha sa atong tagsa-tagsa nga kapilya. Ug tungod niini kini nagpamatuod ug nagpaila nga ikaw aktibong kristyano, ug kung ikaw anaa niini dili lisod ang pagpangayo ug certification sa PSK (Pangulo Sa Katilingban) Leader kay ikaw nailhan man pinaagi sa imong pag-apil niini.

Unsa man ang mga aktibidades diha sa kapilya?
Isa na niini ang kasaulogan sa pulong sa matag sabado, or any activities nga gipahigayon diha sa simbahan pinaagi sa GKK.

Naay kapilya namo diri perting mingawa kung magkasaulugan na sa pulong inig abot sa Sabado sa gabii, mabuak na lang ang bagtinganan sa kapilya pipila lang ang manumbaling, maihap lang nimo ang mga nangapil. Pero kung imong hunahunaon mas taas pa ang oras nila diha sa pagtan-aw sa TV sa mga teleserye, nga ginasubaybayan kada gabii.
Kalooy intawon sa kapilya maihap lang ang nanabat sa novena inig hapit na ang pesta, pero kung adtoon nimo ang basketbolan nga nagpaliga kay hapit na ang pesta, nag ponsisok ang mga tao, abi ba nako ug walay tao ning among lugar.

Sabagay katungod na nila, dili mo man pwede pugson ug guyoron paingon sa kapilya aron pag-apil niini, pero brod hinumdumi ayaw unya ug yangongo kung ikaw manginahanglan diha sa simbahan sagad ra ba aning sigiÂ´g reklamo kining mga walay pakialam diha sa ilang GKK.

-----------------

ngano man laging dali ra man kaayo kaslon ang mga adunahan bisan klaro kaayo nga dili na sila tig-apil anang cluster meeting sa BEC. i dunno ug kahibawo ba na sila ug unsa nang BEC. kay dako siguro ug hinatagan ug offerings o di ba kaha donation.

Kanang giingon nimo nga mga adunahan nga dali ra nga makasal or mabunyagan, dili ko mutoo nga gi exempt na sila sa simbahan, nagakuha gihapon na sila ug requirements, kay diri lang sa among lugar dili ka makasal or mabunyagan ang imong anak kon dili ka naga apil sa actibidades sa GKK diha sa kapilya ma datu kaman o pobre. Aron sila makadawat niining mga sacramento ang ilang ginahimo hangyo lubo diha sa PSK Leader nga tagaan sila ug certification, tungod lagi pod sa kalooy sa Leader muhangyo pa siya ug ingon "nga brod apil lang bisag usa lang ka kasaulogan aron makit-an ka diha sa kapilya sa mga membro kay lisod man pod ug tagaan ka nako bisag wala ka nagatambong". Mao nga dili ta angay mobasol sa simbahan, hinono-a sukna-a usa imong kaugalingon kung gihimo ba nimo ang imohang parti isip membero diha sa simbahan.

sakto si jas4, kung ang mga obispo ug pari motira sa mga state related issues anha sa simbahan, iapil sa wali nya buhatan pa ug pangadye kanang ilang gitawag ug oratio imperata. dili ra magprotesta ang taga gobyerno. pero kung simbahan na gani ang tirahan sa gobyerno dayon ug protesta ug hulga. naay pay mga official nga kung kusog kaayo mohatag ug donation sa simbahan dili jud ka kadungog ug dauton sa mga naa sa simbahan pero kung dili gani tighatagan aw, pagawas dayon storya nga si kuan kay kuan ug maoy kuan. asa man diha ang hustisya nga sige nila ug singgit? di nako magwonder nga naay luag ug pagtoo nga mobalhin sa laing tinuhoan o di gani mag atheist nalang.
tsk tsk tsk.

Ang Oratio imperata mao ang usa ka mando nga pag ampo ug katuyo-an nga gi require sa papa o obispo para sa kalinaw o kalamidad nga nahiaguman diha sa iyang diocese.

Ang pangutana aduna bay pag-ampo diha sa simbahan nga makadaut diha sa iyang komunidad?

Para kanako brod kanang pagbalhin sa laing tinuhuan tungod lamang sa requirements sa simbahan nga gipangayo mabaw kana nga hinungdan. Wala man gani ka kasabot sa imong daang relihiyon unya mobalhin nahinoon ka didto sa ubang relihiyon, mosamot ka na sigurog reklamo sa kadaghan nga e require sa imoha sa ubang relihiyon labi na siguro ug require ka na ug â€œtitheâ€ which is compulsory para sa ilang simbahan.

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chriswise · « **Reply #34 on:** October 05, 2010, 05:07:38 PM »

Any religious organization are exempted from paying tax not only the catholic church brod.

Sakto ang imong gi ingon brod BQN nga daghan ug requisitos ang simbahan karon.
Usa man pod ako ka sakristan sud sa pipila lang ka tuig namatngunan pod nako na grabe na kaayo ang kahilayan karon nga gikabisihan sa mga tao kompara sa una.

Ngano man nga gi himo man ning requirements sa simbahan, lisod ba kining buhaton isip usa ka kristyano?
Ngano man? Ang kahilayan sa atong kumunidad mao ang nakapahilayo sa mga tao diha sa simbahan dili parehas kaniadtong unang panahon nga pipila lang kanato ang nay TV, wala pay mga internet sa una nga gikabisihan karon sa mga kabataan, mga hamtong ug dili lang sila pati na ang mga idaran mi apil napod niini, ug dili lang kay kini anaa pay lain gawas niini.
Busa, gihimo kini isip usa sa mga gikinahanglan aron maaktibo ang mga membro dili lang sa pagka ngalang katoliko kon dili usab diha sa buhat pinaagi sa pag-apil sa mga aktibidades diha sa simbahan, nga gipakaylap diha sa GKK diha sa atong tagsa-tagsa nga kapilya. Ug tungod niini kini nagpamatuod ug nagpaila nga ikaw aktibong kristyano, ug kung ikaw anaa niini dili lisod ang pagpangayo ug certification sa PSK (Pangulo Sa Katilingban) Leader kay ikaw nailhan man pinaagi sa imong pag-apil niini.

Unsa man ang mga aktibidades diha sa kapilya?
Isa na niini ang kasaulogan sa pulong sa matag sabado, or any activities nga gipahigayon diha sa simbahan pinaagi sa GKK.

Naay kapilya namo diri perting mingawa kung magkasaulugan na sa pulong inig abot sa Sabado sa gabii, mabuak na lang ang bagtinganan sa kapilya pipila lang ang manumbaling, maihap lang nimo ang mga nangapil. Pero kung imong hunahunaon mas taas pa ang oras nila diha sa pagtan-aw sa TV sa mga teleserye, nga ginasubaybayan kada gabii.
Kalooy intawon sa kapilya maihap lang ang nanabat sa novena inig hapit na ang pesta, pero kung adtoon nimo ang basketbolan nga nagpaliga kay hapit na ang pesta, nag ponsisok ang mga tao, abi ba nako ug walay tao ning among lugar.

Sabagay katungod na nila, dili mo man pwede pugson ug guyoron paingon sa kapilya aron pag-apil niini, pero brod hinumdumi ayaw unya ug yangongo kung ikaw manginahanglan diha sa simbahan sagad ra ba aning sigiÂ´g reklamo kining mga walay pakialam diha sa ilang GKK.

-----------------
Kanang giingon nimo nga mga adunahan nga dali ra nga makasal or mabunyagan, dili ko mutoo nga gi exempt na sila sa simbahan, nagakuha gihapon na sila ug requirements, kay diri lang sa among lugar dili ka makasal or mabunyagan ang imong anak kon dili ka naga apil sa actibidades sa GKK diha sa kapilya ma datu kaman o pobre. Aron sila makadawat niining mga sacramento ang ilang ginahimo hangyo lubo diha sa PSK Leader nga tagaan sila ug certification, tungod lagi pod sa kalooy sa Leader muhangyo pa siya nga brod apil lang bisag usa lang ka kasaulogan aron makit-an ka diha sa kapilya sa mga membro kay lisod man pod ug tagaan ka nako bisag wala ka nagatambong. Mao nga dili ta angay mobasol sa simbahan, hinono-a sukna-a usa imong kaugalingon kung gihimo ba nimo ang imohang parti isip membero diha sa simbahan.

Ang Oratio imperata mao ang usa ka mando nga pag ampo ug katuyo-an nga gi require sa papa o obispo para sa kalinaw o kalamidad nga nahiagum diha sa iyang diocese.

Ang pangutana aduna bay pag-ampo diha sa simbahan nga makadaut diha sa iyang komunidad?

Para kanako brod kanang pagbalhin sa laing tinuhuan tungod lamang sa requirements sa simbahan nga gipangayo mabaw kana nga hinungdan. Wala man gani ka kasabot sa imong daang relihiyon unya mobalhin nahinoon ka didto sa ubang relihiyon, samot ka nang daghan ug e require sa imoha sa ubang relihiyon labi na siguro ug require ka na ug â€œtitheâ€ which is compulsory para sa ilang simbahan.

if mabuting kang kristiyano sumonod tayo sa mga guidelines wala naman masama diba kahit anong religion,,that are to determine individuals to thier obligation,,,,,,,,,tama ka....yong mga palaging nag reklamo yon yong nag pabaya lang,,kahit anong religion my tungkulin,,na sundin,,

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Scarb · « **Reply #35 on:** October 05, 2010, 05:11:06 PM »

Jesus was submerged in the river of Jordan wearing all white and the river is salty he was not baptized wearing any color and baptized by water in a plastic bottle...

Your sarcasmus about wearing different color and plastic bottle thingy..suckÂ§..bettah swallow it urself

Using water and salt only symbolize how Jesus being baptized..is a sort of ritual..
How we submerged(ur term) unto our hearts the meaning of BAPTISM..,datz what countÂ§

Wheres ur logic? bitte schÃ¶n..

Where does the money go that is paid to the collection baskets here?

Before you question, try to iron first TBN and Charity org. issue

Doncha jump from one stream to another without knowing where it leads..!

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chriswise · « **Reply #36 on:** October 05, 2010, 05:57:41 PM »

No need to wonder why..

offices and schools are closed..its Sunday nyahaha

sya lang pala nasa internet every sunday he,he,he,he,he,,punta church kahit anong religion kapa..basta pray for peace......baka sa mosque gusto nya,,he,he,he,he,,puedi rin,,,basta for peace porpose,,,,GOD BLESS

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chriswise · « **Reply #37 on:** October 05, 2010, 06:05:35 PM »

Itong yong baptism na sinabi nag LORD before he go heaven.....
meron kasi nag sabi na sa jordan river puedi,,,,,,,di tayo makapunta doon ang layo,,,

Matthew 28:19
19 â€œGo therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,

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Scarb · « **Reply #38 on:** October 05, 2010, 06:36:39 PM »

sya lang pala nasa internet every sunday he,he,he,he,he,,punta church kahit anong religion kapa..basta pray for peace......baka sa mosque gusto nya,,he,he,he,he,,puedi rin,,,basta for peace porpose,,,,GOD BLESS

Iya purpose pag stay tali sa pinas ky pagtandi sa atoa sa iyang states kono ug pag chigig panghinaway ngerkÂ§

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Scarb · « **Reply #39 on:** October 05, 2010, 06:39:12 PM »

Itong yong baptism na sinabi nag LORD before he go heaven.....
meron kasi nag sabi na sa jordan river puedi,,,,,,,di tayo makapunta doon ang layo,,,

Matthew 28:19
19 â€œGo therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,

Everytime magpa bunyag ta,syay ato papletihon para Jordan tyahaha

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ben · « **Reply #40 on:** October 05, 2010, 07:48:55 PM »

I think we need some Asian wisdom in this thread

"Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense." - Gautama Siddharta

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chriswise · « **Reply #41 on:** October 05, 2010, 08:18:46 PM »

he,he,he,,mahirap visa doon,,,at saka ma ubos pa ang kayamanan ny,,he,he,he,,dami natin e,,he,he,

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chriswise · « **Reply #42 on:** October 05, 2010, 08:22:19 PM »

I think we need some Asian wisdom in this thread

"Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense." - Gautama Siddharta

diba yon ang budha?

Matthew 24:23â€“27 (NIV)
23 At that time if anyone says to you, â€˜Look, here is the Christ!â€™ or, â€˜There he is!â€™ do not believe it. 24 For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the electâ€”if that were possible. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time.

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islander · « **Reply #43 on:** October 05, 2010, 10:06:32 PM »

I think we need some Asian wisdom in this thread

"Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense." - Gautama Siddharta

buddha's wisdom, anyone? this doesn't seem too far out with our usual tendency to believe only those who share in our own beliefs.

as for carlos 'damaso' celdran, no regrets? fine. then he should shut up and live with the consequences of his stunt. i doubt very much if that stunt earned him any convert from the anti-rh bill adherents to go over his side. he only managed to have his own 15 minutes of fame.

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #44 on:** October 05, 2010, 10:44:34 PM »

buddha's wisdom, anyone? this doesn't seem too far out with our usual tendency to believe only those who share in our own beliefs.

as for carlos 'damaso' celdran, no regrets? fine. then he should shut up and live with the consequences of his stunt. i doubt very much if that stunt earned him any convert from the anti-rh bill adherents to go over his side. he only managed to have his own 15 minutes of fame.

Indeed, Isles, tho he managed to hurt his brothers and sisters during worship, not to say, desecrated the Altar of God , we can only pray that he is forgiven of his misdeeds, and that the mercies and graces of God Above continue to shower for him and his family. For out of the deep and infinite Love of God, He sees and looks past the sins and searches the hearts of all His children.

That , in the end, is the beauty and truth that the Roman Catholic Church teaches all of us.

The irony of the situation tho; it was the Roman Catholic Church who probably baptized Celdran (as he claims to be catholic), it was probably the Catholic Church that performed his marriage mass (if he is married), and it will probably be the Catholic Church to perform his requiem mass when he dies....

Peace to All!

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #45 on:** October 05, 2010, 10:46:21 PM »

diba yon ang budha?

Matthew 24:23â€“27 (NIV)
23 At that time if anyone says to you, â€˜Look, here is the Christ!â€™ or, â€˜There he is!â€™ do not believe it. 24 For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the electâ€”if that were possible. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time.

ah, very nice, indeed. By this verse, it nullifies men who claimed to be prophets such as Muhammad (Islam) and Joseph Smith (Mormonism).
Since Christ Is the Word Made Flesh, The Seal of Revelation, no man or prophet will come after him. For when He comes again, it will summon the end of the world.

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #46 on:** October 05, 2010, 10:56:18 PM »

Fact today is LDS if they are caught now a days with having more than one wife at a time it is curtains to that member. It has been sometime now that it has been outlawed in that faith.

Could you please present to this forum some paperwork and documented proofs on all this stuff that the Catholic church is helping with here in Philippines or Bohol?

Something about those mama Mary statues and other Catholic statues sort of spooks me when I see them and especially when they are moving them in a parade...

Other tell me the same thing....

Its okay tattoo up your body pierce it with a million holes and poison it with alcohol and addictive caffeine drinks...after all it was how God made us born in how to respect our bodies like a good castle...

I know what the bible says about that but it is known to have been twisted and translated at the same time...

Sorry, Priscilla, but I argue otherwise.

The Roman Catholic Church and its many priestly ministers, and the thousands of parishes around the world help feed, clothe the poor, set up charitable organizations for disaster relief, set up orphanages for children abandoned, as well as run many hospitals (catholic ones; many of them in the United States, which are run for free, and give free care to those without financial capability), and so much more. Before you talk and claim anything, please research. I think you know very little in this regard to Catholic Worldwide initiatives for the poor and maligned.

That's good you read the bible. In fact I encourage you to read it actively everyday. And remember that the good book you read was written and compiled and ratified by the Roman Catholic Church after the convening of the Council of Trent.

I suggest you read more into christian historiography....

Again, Book of Mormons is not the bible. The history and little story of Joseph Smith is rather interesting to read about. Nothing more.

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #47 on:** October 05, 2010, 11:02:19 PM »

Any religious organization are exempted from paying tax not only the catholic church brod.

Sakto ang imong gi ingon brod BNC nga daghan ug requisitos ang simbahan karon.
Usa man pod ako ka sakristan sud sa pipila lang ka tuig namatngunan pod nako na grabe na kaayo ang kahilayan karon nga gikabisihan sa mga tao kompara sa una.

Ngano man nga gi himo man ning requirements sa simbahan, lisod ba kining buhaton isip usa ka kristyano?
Ngano man? Ang kahilayan sa atong kumunidad mao ang nakapahilayo sa mga tao diha sa simbahan dili parehas kaniadtong unang panahon nga pipila lang kanato ang nay TV, wala pay mga internet sa una nga gikabisihan karon sa mga kabataan, mga hamtong ug dili lang sila pati na ang mga idaran mi apil napod niini, ug dili lang kay kini anaa pay lain gawas niini.
Busa, gihimo kini isip usa sa mga gikinahanglan aron maaktibo ang mga membro dili lang sa pagka ngalang katoliko kon dili usab diha sa buhat pinaagi sa pag-apil sa mga aktibidades diha sa simbahan, nga gipakaylap diha sa GKK diha sa atong tagsa-tagsa nga kapilya. Ug tungod niini kini nagpamatuod ug nagpaila nga ikaw aktibong kristyano, ug kung ikaw anaa niini dili lisod ang pagpangayo ug certification sa PSK (Pangulo Sa Katilingban) Leader kay ikaw nailhan man pinaagi sa imong pag-apil niini.

Unsa man ang mga aktibidades diha sa kapilya?
Isa na niini ang kasaulogan sa pulong sa matag sabado, or any activities nga gipahigayon diha sa simbahan pinaagi sa GKK.

Naay kapilya namo diri perting mingawa kung magkasaulugan na sa pulong inig abot sa Sabado sa gabii, mabuak na lang ang bagtinganan sa kapilya pipila lang ang manumbaling, maihap lang nimo ang mga nangapil. Pero kung imong hunahunaon mas taas pa ang oras nila diha sa pagtan-aw sa TV sa mga teleserye, nga ginasubaybayan kada gabii.
Kalooy intawon sa kapilya maihap lang ang nanabat sa novena inig hapit na ang pesta, pero kung adtoon nimo ang basketbolan nga nagpaliga kay hapit na ang pesta, nag ponsisok ang mga tao, abi ba nako ug walay tao ning among lugar.

Sabagay katungod na nila, dili mo man pwede pugson ug guyoron paingon sa kapilya aron pag-apil niini, pero brod hinumdumi ayaw unya ug yangongo kung ikaw manginahanglan diha sa simbahan sagad ra ba aning sigiÂ´g reklamo kining mga walay pakialam diha sa ilang GKK.

-----------------
Kanang giingon nimo nga mga adunahan nga dali ra nga makasal or mabunyagan, dili ko mutoo nga gi exempt na sila sa simbahan, nagakuha gihapon na sila ug requirements, kay diri lang sa among lugar dili ka makasal or mabunyagan ang imong anak kon dili ka naga apil sa actibidades sa GKK diha sa kapilya ma datu kaman o pobre. Aron sila makadawat niining mga sacramento ang ilang ginahimo hangyo lubo diha sa PSK Leader nga tagaan sila ug certification, tungod lagi pod sa kalooy sa Leader muhangyo pa siya ug ingon "nga brod apil lang bisag usa lang ka kasaulogan aron makit-an ka diha sa kapilya sa mga membro kay lisod man pod ug tagaan ka nako bisag wala ka nagatambong". Mao nga dili ta angay mobasol sa simbahan, hinono-a sukna-a usa imong kaugalingon kung gihimo ba nimo ang imohang parti isip membero diha sa simbahan.

Ang Oratio imperata mao ang usa ka mando nga pag ampo ug katuyo-an nga gi require sa papa o obispo para sa kalinaw o kalamidad nga nahiaguman diha sa iyang diocese.

Ang pangutana aduna bay pag-ampo diha sa simbahan nga makadaut diha sa iyang komunidad?

Para kanako brod kanang pagbalhin sa laing tinuhuan tungod lamang sa requirements sa simbahan nga gipangayo mabaw kana nga hinungdan. Wala man gani ka kasabot sa imong daang relihiyon unya mobalhin nahinoon ka didto sa ubang relihiyon, mosamot ka na sigurog reklamo sa kadaghan nga e require sa imoha sa ubang relihiyon labi na siguro ug require ka na ug â€œtitheâ€ which is compulsory para sa ilang simbahan.

Exquisite piece and analysis, Vhinz!

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #48 on:** October 05, 2010, 11:04:09 PM »

Itong yong baptism na sinabi nag LORD before he go heaven.....
meron kasi nag sabi na sa jordan river puedi,,,,,,,di tayo makapunta doon ang layo,,,

Matthew 28:19
19 â€œGo therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,

Hehehe guapo kaayo ning bersikolo, Chris!

(my attempt at tagalog: Magandang at manganda yong verse, kapatid!)

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #49 on:** October 05, 2010, 11:11:08 PM »

Fact today is LDS if they are caught now a days with having more than one wife at a time it is curtains to that member. It has been sometime now that it has been outlawed in that faith.

Could you please present to this forum some paperwork and documented proofs on all this stuff that the Catholic church is helping with here in Philippines or Bohol?

Something about those mama Mary statues and other Catholic statues sort of spooks me when I see them and especially when they are moving them in a parade...

Other tell me the same thing....

Its okay tattoo up your body pierce it with a million holes and poison it with alcohol and addictive caffeine drinks...after all it was how God made us born in how to respect our bodies like a good castle...

I know what the bible says about that but it is known to have been twisted and translated at the same time...

Yours is a criticism of our Sacred Tradition and adoration of Sacred Scripture.

I will not even respond accordingly by criticizing what I find wrong in Mormonism.

I will only respond with a parable:

One day there was a mother hen who laid 7 eggs,
all of the eggs hatched and 7 chicklets chirped.
As a mother, the hen fed all of them, until the Chicklets became larger.
Of the 7 chicklets, 3 left the mother hen's nest.
And when they grew larger, the 3 that left began to walk away from each other.

Till a year later, the same mother hen was caring for her new chicklets,
one former chicklet (now much bigger) came and tried to criticize the
mother hen how to properly feed the chicklet.

The mother hen responded quietly,
"Ajaw pag saba dinha, bata, ako intawn imong inahan.
Ug wa pa ko, patay na ka. Buhi ka karon kai gi tagaan ka nako ug kanonon."

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vrglguapo · « **Reply #50 on:** October 05, 2010, 11:13:41 PM »

Indeed, Isles, tho he managed to hurt his brothers and sisters during worship, not to say, desecrated the Altar of God , we can only pray that he is forgiven of his misdeeds, and that the mercies and graces of God Above continue to shower for him and his family. For out of the deep and infinite Love of God, He sees and looks past the sins and searches the hearts of all His children.

That , in the end, is the beauty and truth that the Roman Catholic Church teaches all of us.

The irony of the situation tho; it was the Roman Catholic Church who probably baptized Celdran (as he claims to be catholic), it was probably the Catholic Church that performed his marriage mass (if he is married), and it will probably be the Catholic Church to perform his requiem mass when he dies....

Peace to All!

Its not only Roman Catholic religion teaches the beauty and the truth..If you are familiar with the INQUISITION IN EUROPE then you should not be so one sided...The Lord Jesus was not born as a Catholic,he was born as a jew that's why Jews have a special place on his hearts .They are called chosen people of God..

The Inquisition was a Roman Catholic tribunal for discovery and punishment of heresy, which was marked by the severity of questioning and punishment and lack of rights afforded to the accused.

While many people associate the Inquisition with Spain and Portugal, it was actually instituted by Pope Innocent III (1198-1216) in Rome. A later pope, Pope Gregory IX established the Inquisition, in 1233, to combat the heresy of the Abilgenses, a religious sect in France. By 1255, the Inquisition was in full gear throughout Central and Western Europe; although it was never instituted in England or Scandinavia.

Initially a tribunal would open at a location and an edict of grace would be published calling upon those who are conscious of heresy to confess; after a period of grace, the tribunal officers could make accusations. Those accused of heresy were sentenced at an auto de fe, Act of Faith. Clergyman would sit at the proceedings and would deliver the punishments. Punishments included confinement to dungeons, physical abuse and torture. Those who reconciled with the church were still punished and many had their property confiscated, as well as were banished from public life. Those who never confessed were burned at the stake without strangulation; those who did confess were strangled first. During the 16th and 17th centuries, attendance at auto de fe reached as high as the attendance at bullfights.

In the beginning, the Inquisition dealt only with Christian heretics and did not interfere with the affairs of Jews. However, disputes about Maimonidesâ€™ books (which addressed the synthesis of Judaism and other cultures) provided a pretext for harassing Jews and, in 1242, the Inquisition condemned the Talmud and burned thousands of volumes. In 1288, the first mass burning of Jews on the stake took place in France.

In 1481 the Inquisition started in Spain and ultimately surpassed the medieval Inquisition, in both scope and intensity. Conversos (Secret Jews) and New Christians were targeted because of their close relations to the Jewish community, many of whom were Jews in all but their name. Fear of Jewish influence led Queen Isabella and King Ferdinand to write a petition to the Pope asking permission to start an Inquisition in Spain. In 1483 Tomas de Torquemada became the inquisitor-general for most of Spain, he set tribunals in many cities. Also heading the Inquisition in Spain were two Dominican monks, Miguel de Morillo and Juan de San Martin.

First, they arrested Conversos and notable figures in Seville; in Seville more than 700 Conversos were burned at the stake and 5,000 repented. Tribunals were also opened in Aragon, Catalonia and Valencia. An Inquisition Tribunal was set up in Ciudad Real, where 100 Conversos were condemned, and it was moved to Toledo in 1485. Between 1486-1492, 25 auto de fes were held in Toledo, 467 people were burned at the stake and others were imprisoned. The Inquisition finally made its way to Barcelona, where it was resisted at first because of the important place of Spanish Conversos in the economy and society.

More than 13,000 Conversos were put on trial during the first 12 years of the Spanish Inquisition. Hoping to eliminate ties between the Jewish community and Conversos, the Jews of Spain were expelled in 1492..

The next phase of the Inquisition began around 1531, when Pope Leo X extended the Inquisition to Portugal. Thousands of Jews came to Portugal after the 1492 expulsion. A Spanish style Inquisition was constituted and tribunals were set up in Lisbon and other cities. Among the Jews who died at the hands of the Inquisition were well-known figures of the period such as Isaac de Castro Tartas, Antonio Serrao de Castro and Antonio Jose da Silva. The Inquisition never stopped in Spain and continued until the late 18th century.

By the second half of the 18th century, the Inquisition abated, due to the spread of enlightened ideas and lack of resources. The last auto de fe in Portugal took place on October 27, 1765. Not until 1808, during the brief reign of Joseph Bonaparte, was the Inquisition abolished in Spain. An estimated 31,912 heretics were burned at the stake, 17,659 were burned in effigy and 291,450 made reconciliations in the Spanish Inquisition. In Portugal, about 40,000 cases were tried, although only 1,800 were burned, the rest made penance.

The Inquisition was not limited to Europe; it also spread to Spanish and Portugese colonies in the New World and Asia. Many Jews and Conversos fled from Portugal and Spain to the New World seeking greater security and economic opportunities. Branches of the Portugese Inquisition were set up in Goa and Brazil. Spanish tribunals and auto de fes were set up in Mexico, the Philippine Islands, Guatemala, Peru, New Granada and the Canary Islands. By the late 18th century, most of these were dissolved.
Also see Auto de fe

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #51 on:** October 05, 2010, 11:22:58 PM »

Its not only Roman Catholic religion teaches the beauty and the truth..If you are familiar with the INQUISITION IN EUROPE then you should not be so one sided...The Lord Jesus was not born as a Catholic,he was born as a jew that's why Jews have a special place on his hearts .They are called chosen people of God..

The Inquisition was a Roman Catholic tribunal for discovery and punishment of heresy, which was marked by the severity of questioning and punishment and lack of rights afforded to the accused.

While many people associate the Inquisition with Spain and Portugal, it was actually instituted by Pope Innocent III (1198-1216) in Rome. A later pope, Pope Gregory IX established the Inquisition, in 1233, to combat the heresy of the Abilgenses, a religious sect in France. By 1255, the Inquisition was in full gear throughout Central and Western Europe; although it was never instituted in England or Scandinavia.

Initially a tribunal would open at a location and an edict of grace would be published calling upon those who are conscious of heresy to confess; after a period of grace, the tribunal officers could make accusations. Those accused of heresy were sentenced at an auto de fe, Act of Faith. Clergyman would sit at the proceedings and would deliver the punishments. Punishments included confinement to dungeons, physical abuse and torture. Those who reconciled with the church were still punished and many had their property confiscated, as well as were banished from public life. Those who never confessed were burned at the stake without strangulation; those who did confess were strangled first. During the 16th and 17th centuries, attendance at auto de fe reached as high as the attendance at bullfights.

In the beginning, the Inquisition dealt only with Christian heretics and did not interfere with the affairs of Jews. However, disputes about Maimonidesâ€™ books (which addressed the synthesis of Judaism and other cultures) provided a pretext for harassing Jews and, in 1242, the Inquisition condemned the Talmud and burned thousands of volumes. In 1288, the first mass burning of Jews on the stake took place in France.

In 1481 the Inquisition started in Spain and ultimately surpassed the medieval Inquisition, in both scope and intensity. Conversos (Secret Jews) and New Christians were targeted because of their close relations to the Jewish community, many of whom were Jews in all but their name. Fear of Jewish influence led Queen Isabella and King Ferdinand to write a petition to the Pope asking permission to start an Inquisition in Spain. In 1483 Tomas de Torquemada became the inquisitor-general for most of Spain, he set tribunals in many cities. Also heading the Inquisition in Spain were two Dominican monks, Miguel de Morillo and Juan de San Martin.

First, they arrested Conversos and notable figures in Seville; in Seville more than 700 Conversos were burned at the stake and 5,000 repented. Tribunals were also opened in Aragon, Catalonia and Valencia. An Inquisition Tribunal was set up in Ciudad Real, where 100 Conversos were condemned, and it was moved to Toledo in 1485. Between 1486-1492, 25 auto de fes were held in Toledo, 467 people were burned at the stake and others were imprisoned. The Inquisition finally made its way to Barcelona, where it was resisted at first because of the important place of Spanish Conversos in the economy and society.

More than 13,000 Conversos were put on trial during the first 12 years of the Spanish Inquisition. Hoping to eliminate ties between the Jewish community and Conversos, the Jews of Spain were expelled in 1492..

The next phase of the Inquisition began around 1531, when Pope Leo X extended the Inquisition to Portugal. Thousands of Jews came to Portugal after the 1492 expulsion. A Spanish style Inquisition was constituted and tribunals were set up in Lisbon and other cities. Among the Jews who died at the hands of the Inquisition were well-known figures of the period such as Isaac de Castro Tartas, Antonio Serrao de Castro and Antonio Jose da Silva. The Inquisition never stopped in Spain and continued until the late 18th century.

By the second half of the 18th century, the Inquisition abated, due to the spread of enlightened ideas and lack of resources. The last auto de fe in Portugal took place on October 27, 1765. Not until 1808, during the brief reign of Joseph Bonaparte, was the Inquisition abolished in Spain. An estimated 31,912 heretics were burned at the stake, 17,659 were burned in effigy and 291,450 made reconciliations in the Spanish Inquisition. In Portugal, about 40,000 cases were tried, although only 1,800 were burned, the rest made penance.

The Inquisition was not limited to Europe; it also spread to Spanish and Portugese colonies in the New World and Asia. Many Jews and Conversos fled from Portugal and Spain to the New World seeking greater security and economic opportunities. Branches of the Portugese Inquisition were set up in Goa and Brazil. Spanish tribunals and auto de fes were set up in Mexico, the Philippine Islands, Guatemala, Peru, New Granada and the Canary Islands. By the late 18th century, most of these were dissolved.
Also see Auto de fe

The past is the past, that is why the Great Reformation manifested in the Roman Catholic Church. To address the ecumenical and ecclesiastic methods in dispensing the Truth and Word of God amongst the kingdoms and princedoms in Europe at the time.

Your understanding of the Spanish Inquisition needs to be enlightened, Virgil, it was a policy specifically in the Spanish Kingdom during the 16th century, during the Spanish Reconquista Period. It was when Spain reconquored most of former Moorish lands in present Southern Spain, which had a considerable muslim and jewish population. The Spanish Monarchy favored and requested an inquisition to force the muslims in present day Andalucia, Spain, to convert to Christianity or be removed. This was a bloody history for Spaniards, and was a policy that was enacted by the sheer militant nature between the Christian Spaniards and the Muslim Moors at the time. You have to understand that the two powers were at war with each other for over 2 centuries. The Spanish Monarchy requested the aid of the Catholic Church to quell any heresy in its newly conquered regions.

These unfortunate incidents and other transgressions were addressed during the convening of the Catholic Great Reformation.

Incidentally, the late Pope John Paul in 2000 made an unprecedented apology for Church's involvement in the Spanish Inquisition.

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #52 on:** October 05, 2010, 11:30:33 PM »

Your sarcasmus about wearing different color and plastic bottle thingy..suckÂ§..bettah swallow it urself

Using water and salt only symbolize how Jesus being baptized..is a sort of ritual..
How we submerged(ur term) unto our hearts the meaning of BAPTISM..,datz what countÂ§

Wheres ur logic? bitte schÃ¶n..

Before you question, try to iron first TBN and Charity org. issue

Doncha jump from one stream to another without knowing where it leads..!

Or,

Before you criticize what is wrong in your neighbor's house, one must care to make sure that his own house is in good shape.

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vrglguapo · « **Reply #53 on:** October 05, 2010, 11:41:48 PM »

What can you say about the Cardinal who cover up a paedophile priest for the sake of Catholic religion.. it is not a good example for honesty.. Church in Ireland urged to quit over abuse victims' silence vow

By Simon Caldwell and Nick Pisa
Last updated at 8:35 AM on 15th March 2010

* Add to My Stories

Cardinal Sean Brady

Staying put: Cardinal Sean Brady has said he acted promptly against Father Brendan Smyth

The leader of the Roman Catholic Church in Ireland is facing huge pressure to resign amid allegations he witnessed teenage abuse victims take vows of silence over a paedophile.

Cardinal Sean Brady, the Primate of All Ireland, admitted that he attended meetings in 1975 when two teenage boys signed oaths of silence while testifying in a Church inquiry against Father Brendan Smyth.

The priest was later uncovered as the most notorious child abuser in the Irish Catholic Church, carrying out more than 90 sexual assaults against 40 youngsters in a 20-year period.

Survivorsâ€™ groups say the revelations show the cardinal colluded in the cover up of Smythâ€™s crimes â€“ which, they say, allowed the cleric to continue offending - and say he must quit immediately.

Cardinal Brady has refused to go, however, because he said he acted promptly against Smyth but did not have the authority to turn him into the Gardai.

The latest scandal to convulse the Catholic Church comes as allegations emerging in Germany have forced the Vatican to forcefully defend the record of Pope Benedict XVI over his handling of a paedophile priest in the 1980s.

The allegations against Cardinal Brady threaten to bring down the leadership of the Irish Catholic Church in Ireland just months after the devastating Murphy Report into child abuse shamed four bishops who protected the Church by covering up child abuse by priests over four decades.

The scandal resulted in the Pope summoning the Irish bishops to Rome for a meeting in which he denounced the abuse of children as a â€˜heinous crimeâ€™.
Paedophile priest Brendan Smyth leaves Limavady Courthouse in 1997

'Heinous crime': Paedophile priest Brendan Smyth leaves Limavady Courthouse in 1997

Maeve Lewis, of support group One in Four, said: â€˜This latest disclosure removes Cardinal Brady's credibility to provide the leadership that is so vital at this time, leaving him no option but to resign.â€™

Abuse campaigner Colm O'Gorman said Cardinal Brady â€˜is now deeply personally implicated in the gross failures of the Catholic Church in the management of Smyth and his rampant sexual offending against children.â€™

The revelations date to a time when Brady was a priest and a part-time secretary to the then Bishop of Kilmore, Francis McKiernan.
Pope Benedict XVI

Reputation: Pope Benedict XVI is known as a prelate who is tough on clerical child abusers

He attended two meetings where the complainants gave their testimonies and signed undertakings, on oath, to respect the confidentiality of the inquiry.

Afterwards, Father Brady passed reports of the meetings to Bishop McKiernan for his â€˜immediate actionâ€™.

Cardinal Brady said today that he would not be resigning because he had done nothing wrong.

â€˜I did act, and act effectively, in that inquiry to produce the grounds for removing Father Smyth from ministry and specifically it was underlined that he was not to hear confessions and that was very important.â€™

He said the responsibility for Smythâ€™s behaviour as a priest rested with his religious superior in Kilnacrott and not with him.

The Vatican has spent the last week, meanwhile, trying to stop Pope Benedict from being drawn into a scandal involving the alleged abuse of 170 children in Catholic institutions in his own country.

They include the Regensburg choir school that used to employ his brother, Monsignor Georg Ratzinger, who admitted â€˜clipping boys around the earâ€™ but denies knowledge of sexual offences.

Former choirboy Thomas Mayer has claimed in Der Spiegel, however, that Monsignor Ratzinger went much further - and would â€˜throw chairs at students during choir practiceâ€™ if he was not happy with them.

On Friday the Catholic Church in Germany confirmed that in the 1980s Archbishop Joseph Ratzinger of Munich â€“ the future Pope Benedict â€“ had approved therapy for a priest suspected of abuse.

The priest was later transferred to another location, where he was later convicted of abusing minors.

German Catholic authorities have insisted that the transfer was made by Gerhard Gruber, a minor official, without either the authority or knowledge of Archbishop Ratzinger.

On Saturday the Popeâ€™s spokesman, Father Federico Lombardi, denounced attempts to unfairly embroil the Pontiff in scandal.

He said: â€˜It's rather clear that in the last days there have been those who have tried, with a certain aggressive persistence, in Regensburg and Munich, to look for elements to personally involve the Holy Father in the matter of abuses.

â€˜For any objective observer, it's clear that these efforts have failed.â€™

Pope Benedict has long enjoyed a reputation as a prelate who is tough on clerical child abusers, once describing such priests as the â€˜filthâ€™ of the Church.

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vrglguapo · « **Reply #54 on:** October 05, 2010, 11:52:17 PM »

PROBE SHOWS 30 ABUSIVE PRIEST SHUFFLED AROUND GLOBE,ALSO TO PHILIPPINES

RIO DE JANEIROâ€”There he was, five decades later, the priest who had raped Joe Callander in Massachusetts. The photo in the Roman Catholic newsletter showed him with a smile across his wrinkled face, near-naked Amazon Indian children in his arms and at his feet.

The Rev. Mario Pezzotti was working with children and supervising other priests in Brazil.

Itâ€™s not an isolated example.

A priest who admitted to abuse in Los Angeles went to the Philippines, where US Church officials mailed him checks and advised him not to reveal their source.

In an investigation spanning 21 countries across six continents, The Associated Press found 30 cases of priests accused of abuse who were transferred or moved abroad. Some escaped police investigations.

A priest in Canada was convicted of sexual abuse and then moved to France, where he was convicted of abuse again in 2005. Another priest was moved back and forth between Ireland and England, despite being diagnosed as a pederast, a man who commits sodomy with boys.

The pattern

â€œThe pattern is if a priest gets into trouble and itâ€™s close to becoming a scandal or if the law might get involved, they send them to the missions abroad,â€ said Richard Sipe, a former Benedictine monk and critic of what he says is a practice of international transfers of accused and admitted priest child abusers. â€œAnything to avoid a scandal.â€

Church officials say that in some cases, the priests themselves moved to another country and the new parish might not have been aware of past allegations.

In other cases, officials said they did not believe the allegations, or that the priest had served his time and reformed.

Missionary in Bohol

Joseph Skelton was a 26-year-old student at St. John Provincial Seminary in Detroit, Michigan, in 1988 when he was convicted of sexual misconduct with a 15-year-old boy. He was given three yearsâ€™ probation and dismissed from his seminary.

READ â€“ Archdiocese Didnâ€™t Publicize Priestâ€™s Abuse Cases, Group Says

Two decades later, he lives in the Philippines, where he was ordained a priest and now serves as parochial vicar of the St. Vincent Ferrer parish in the remote town of Calape, in Bohol, according to the diocese directory. He is also a popular gospel singer in the heavily Catholic country.

Reached on his cell phone, Skelton declined comment.

He finished his seminary studies in Manila and was ordained in 2001 in the diocese of Tagbilaran. The bishop who ordained Skelton said he wouldnâ€™t have made him a priest if he had known about the criminal conviction.

â€œI ordained him because, while there was some talk about his effeminate ways, there was no case against him,â€ Bishop Leopoldo S. Tumulak said.

Tumulak, who has since stepped down, said it would be up to his successor to reopen the case.

If he has changedâ€¦

â€œThe priest is trying to live well,â€ Tumulak said. â€œIf he has really changed, the heart of the Church is compassionateâ€”although in America, Europe, they have different ways of looking at it. Not the Church, but the government, the people. In the Philippines, itâ€™s a little bit different.â€

The archdiocese of Detroit, after learning Skelton had been ordained, sent a letter about his conviction to the Tagbilaran diocese in 2003. Tumulak said he doesnâ€™t remember if he received the letter, and in any case it would have been too late.

Current Bishop Leonardo Medroso said he would investigate. But he added: â€œThe case has been judged already. He was convicted and that means to say he has served already the conviction. So what obstacle can there be if he has already served his punishment or penalty?â€

Cured in the jungle

Joe Callander says he was 14 when he was raped three times and abused on other occasions in 1959 at the now-closed Xaverian Missionary Faith High School in Holliston, Massachusetts. The Xaverians settled the case for $175,000 in 1993. At least two other accusations of sexual abuse were leveled against the Rev. Mario Pezzotti in the Boston area.

In the meantime, from 1970 to 2003, Pezzotti was in Brazil, where he worked with the Kayapo Indians. In a note of apology to Callander in 1993, Pezzotti said he had cured himself in the jungle.

â€œUpon arrival in Brazil, confiding in Godâ€™s mercy, I owned up to the problem,â€ Pezzotti wrote. â€œWith divine help, I overcame it.â€

Reached by telephone, Pezzotti, now 75, said only: â€œI donâ€™t see why I have to talk about it. Everything was resolved and I donâ€™t feel like talking.â€

Barred in US

Fr. Vijay Vhaskr Godugunuru was forced to return to India and then was transferred to Italy after pleading no contest to assaulting a 15-year-old girl while visiting friends in Florida. He now ministers to a parish in Tuscany, where he hears confessions, celebrates Mass and works with children.

The bishops supervising him said they were aware of the case but believed he was innocent.

â€œThe evidence that has been given does not support the accusation,â€ Monsignor Rodolfo Cetoloni, the bishop of the Montepulciano diocese, told the AP.

Godugunuru, now 40, â€œenjoys the esteem of everybody,â€ he said.

Godugunuru had been charged with fondling a parishioner in her familyâ€™s van in June 2006. He denied intentionally touching her.

He faced up to five years in prison and a $5,000 fine but in exchange for his no contest plea was required to return to India, undergo counseling, not supervise minors for a year and not to return to the United States.

â€˜A popular gameâ€™

Clodoveo Piazza is an Italian Jesuit who ran a homeless shelter for street children and worked in Brazil for 30 years.

Last August, prosecutors said at least eight boys and young men had come forward to say either that they were abused by Piazza or that he allowed visiting foreigners to sexually abuse boys. Brazilian police are seeking his arrest.

Piazza now works in Mozambique, according to the Catholic nonprofit Organizzazione di Aiuto Fraterno, and the Church has come to his defense.

â€œThe Italian Jesuits express their solidarity with the brother and father Piazza,â€ reads one note on the groupâ€™s website. It adds that â€œthe slander against missionaries is becoming an increasingly popular game.â€

Piazza said the charges were false and part of a campaign to blackmail him by â€œpolitical circlesâ€ in Brazil. He said he had been acquitted of the charges twice in Brazil, and that there is no evidence against him.

Geographical cure

The Rev. Enrique Diaz Jimenez of Colombia was punished three times in three different countries.

He pleaded guilty to sexually abusing three boys while a priest in New York in the mid-1980s, and was sentenced in April 1991 to five yearsâ€™ probation and four months of an â€œintermittent sentence.â€

He resumed work as a priest in Venezuela, where he was suspended from the priesthood in 1996 for 20 years after 18 boys accused him of molesting them.

Diaz returned to Colombia in 1996 and again found work as a priest. Prosecutors say he was charged in 2001 with molesting one more boy and pleaded guilty.

Transferring abusive priests was called â€œthe geographical cure,â€ according to Terry Carter, a New Zealand victim.

$32K in settlement

Carter won $32,000 in compensation from the Society of Mary, which oversees the Catholic boarding school outside Wellington where he was abused by the Rev. Allan Woodcock.

Woodcock molested 11 boys at four church facilities before being sent to Ireland. He was extradited to New Zealand in 2004, pleaded guilty to 21 sexual abuse charges and was sentenced to seven years in jail. He was paroled in 2009.

He was removed from the priesthood in 2001, a spokesperson for the group said.

U

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #55 on:** October 06, 2010, 12:00:59 AM »

What can I say? As a layman and as a Knight of Columbus, all I can say is that the transgressions of some priests do not speak for the whole flock.
Abuses (sexual, physical, psychological) is not something that is attributed to Catholic religious life, in fact, there are many rampant cases of sexual abuse cases involving Protestant ministers, Muslim Imams, as well as other religious institutions. Abuse, in its facets, is a form of human psychological terror that is rooted in the person's inability to control their actions or due to a deviation moral cognition. Abuse cases are rampant in the non-religious life, mothers abusing their children, fathers abusing their children, wives and husbands abusing each other etc. This is a human psychological deficiency that is due in part to a personal deviation in moral cognition, or an anatomical pathology in the limbic system (which controls sexuality). Thus, this problem is not a church-problem, in the absolute sense, but is a deeply anatomical, human, pathology.

The Church, as a religious and faith institution dispenses the Word of God, and Truth. It's policy in the faith life is paramount.
And these anti-Catholic media propaganda needs to focus and address the issue being a personal case basis.

Just as how some protestant ministers that sexually abuse members of the faith do not represent the mores and ethos of that particular protestant denomination, the same applies for some cases of Catholic Priests who have fallen from grace.

Romans 3:23, Virgil, states, "For All have fallen from the Glory of God..."

We are all, afterall, man, and thus are tempted to sin and transgress. But it is through Grace...that we are perfected.
I myself am a sinner with iniquities that God has forgiven me of, the same goes for you, Virgil, and all Man-kind. We are all sinners.
From the farmer, to the doctor, to the politician, to the protestant minister, to the catholic priest, and even to His Holiness the Pope.
We are all man. We are all tempted to sin. However, the central dogma of Catholic Teaching is this: That Grace From God Alone, can make Perfect what is Imperfect.

By The Almighty Father's Divine Grace...

Peace!!!!

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vrglguapo · « **Reply #56 on:** October 06, 2010, 12:04:17 AM »

I SAY THIS IS A VERY UNFAIR PRACTICES IN THE NAME OF JUSTICE...WHAT CELDRAN DID WAS NOTHING COMPARE TO THIS PEOPLE..BY SAYING MASS EVERY SUNDAY THEY ARE NOT ONLY DESECRATED THE ALTAR OF GOD..THEY ARE MUCH WORSE..LIARS AND HYPOCRITE..

ANG USA KA PRIEST NAABUT PA JUD SA CALAPE,bOHOL...

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #57 on:** October 06, 2010, 12:13:09 AM »

The Apostle Paul (formerly known as Saul) was at first an enemy of Christianity and the Christian faith. He was the head of the judiciary that actively hunted down and killed Christians; his involvement in the death of St. Stephen (the martyr) was potently true.

Saul (the former name of Paul) was a Pharisee, and was a sinner, however, his sinful nature was perfected when he saw The Christ.
Seeing Christ for the first time relegated his former life. He then became known as Paul, and was the last apostle.

Paul teaches us, through his writings in the bible and through his own life that Sinful Man is made anew in Christ Jesus.
It was St. Paul that went to Rome and facilitated the conversion of the pagan Romans to the Christian Faith.
With Paul and St. Peter, Rome became Christian.
The foundation of the Roman Catholic Church in the teachings of these men, Peter (Petros) being the rock upon the Church was built.

Paul's own life is a message for all.

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #58 on:** October 06, 2010, 12:15:27 AM »

I SAY THIS IS A VERY UNFAIR PRACTICES IN THE NAME OF JUSTICE...WHAT CELDRAN DID WAS NOTHING COMPARE TO THIS PEOPLE..BY SAYING MASS EVERY SUNDAY THEY ARE NOT ONLY DESECRATED THE ALTAR OF GOD..THEY ARE MUCH WORSE..LIARS AND HYPOCRITE..

ANG USA KA PRIEST NAABUT PA JUD SA CALAPE,bOHOL...

One priest does not represent all the priests in The Holy Roman Catholic Church.
Sorry, the minority does not represent the majority.

We are sympathetic for any cases of abuses in some parishes, and we pray for God's Grace to go to those who are hurt.
But I will stress that just because some sheep go astray, this does not constitute or represent the flock that walk solemnly in Christ.

AMEN!

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vrglguapo · « **Reply #59 on:** October 06, 2010, 12:24:13 AM »

One priest does not represent all the priests in The Holy Roman Catholic Church.
Sorry, the minority does not represent the majority.

We are sympathetic for any cases of abuses in some parishes, and we pray for God's Grace to go to those who are hurt.
But I will stress that just because some sheep go astray, this does not constitute or represent the flock that walk solemnly in Christ.

AMEN!

Mao jud tinood na..but now when i go to mass i cant help wondering what the priest are saying..is true to what he is doing..only God knows..

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bol-anon nga cebuano · « **Reply #60 on:** October 06, 2010, 12:32:33 AM »

Any religious organization are exempted from paying tax not only the catholic church brod.

bai vhinz, sakto ka nga exempted ang churches in paying tax to the government. not only the catholic church but also other duly registered religions including non-profit organizations. hasta gani hospital nga dagko kaayo ug charges sa ilang mga pasyente ug mga schools nga tag-as ug tuition fees sa ilang mga students mo claim gani nga non-profit sila maong magpa-exempt sad. lihok lang unta ang simbahan sa ilang tahas paglambo sa pulong sa dios ug dili nila hilabtan ang gobyerno nga naglihok pud sa ilang tahas sa pagpalambo sa panginabuhian sa mga tawo nga ilang gialagaran. dako jud ug impluwensiya ang simbahan pero sabton sad unta nila nga naa jud tawo dili madala ug kabig.

Sakto ang imong gi ingon brod BNC nga daghan ug requisitos ang simbahan karon.
Usa man pod ako ka sakristan sud sa pipila lang ka tuig namatngunan pod nako na grabe na kaayo ang kahilayan karon nga gikabisihan sa mga tao kompara sa una. Ngano man nga gi himo man ning requirements sa simbahan, lisod ba kining buhaton isip usa ka kristyano? Ngano man? Ang kahilayan sa atong kumunidad mao ang nakapahilayo sa mga tao diha sa simbahan dili parehas kaniadtong unang panahon nga pipila lang kanato ang nay TV, wala pay mga internet sa una nga gikabisihan karon sa mga kabataan, mga hamtong ug dili lang sila pati na ang mga idaran mi apil napod niini, ug dili lang kay kini anaa pay lain gawas niini. Busa, gihimo kini isip usa sa mga gikinahanglan aron maaktibo ang mga membro dili lang sa pagka ngalang katoliko kon dili usab diha sa buhat pinaagi sa pag-apil sa mga aktibidades diha sa simbahan, nga gipakaylap diha sa GKK diha sa atong tagsa-tagsa nga kapilya. Ug tungod niini kini nagpamatuod ug nagpaila nga ikaw aktibong kristyano, ug kung ikaw anaa niini dili lisod ang pagpangayo ug certification sa PSK (Pangulo Sa Katilingban) Leader kay ikaw nailhan man pinaagi sa imong pag-apil niini.

Unsa man ang mga aktibidades diha sa kapilya?
Isa na niini ang kasaulogan sa pulong sa matag sabado, or any activities nga gipahigayon diha sa simbahan pinaagi sa GKK.

Naay kapilya namo diri perting mingawa kung magkasaulugan na sa pulong inig abot sa Sabado sa gabii, mabuak na lang ang bagtinganan sa kapilya pipila lang ang manumbaling, maihap lang nimo ang mga nangapil. Pero kung imong hunahunaon mas taas pa ang oras nila diha sa pagtan-aw sa TV sa mga teleserye, nga ginasubaybayan kada gabii.
Kalooy intawon sa kapilya maihap lang ang nanabat sa novena inig hapit na ang pesta, pero kung adtoon nimo ang basketbolan nga nagpaliga kay hapit na ang pesta, nag ponsisok ang mga tao, abi ba nako ug walay tao ning among lugar.

Sabagay katungod na nila, dili mo man pwede pugson ug guyoron paingon sa kapilya aron pag-apil niini, pero brod hinumdumi ayaw unya ug yangongo kung ikaw manginahanglan diha sa simbahan sagad ra ba aning sigiÂ´g reklamo kining mga walay pakialam diha sa ilang GKK.

tinuod, layo na kaayo ug umento ang kalibutan tungod kay naa na kita sa technology age. pero sad siguro na mahimong rason nga pun-an ang mga naandan nga mga requisitos sa pagpakasal or di ba kaha pagpabunyag. sakto dili lisod ang pag comply ana pero dili kaba matawag nga kristiyano kung dili ka makaapil sa kalihokan sa simbahan? sakto naman siguro na ang pagsimba matag dominggo ug sa mga pista hasta ang pag-novena nga mga gimbuhaton diin nagmatood sa imong pagka kristiyano ug wala ka mahikalimot sa labawng makagagahum. ang pagtambong sa mga prayer meeting, cluster meeting ug unsa pa na dihang meeting nga gilatid sa BEC ug GSK usa na ka extra curricular activities.

Kanang giingon nimo nga mga adunahan nga dali ra nga makasal or mabunyagan, dili ko mutoo nga gi exempt na sila sa simbahan, nagakuha gihapon na sila ug requirements, kay diri lang sa among lugar dili ka makasal or mabunyagan ang imong anak kon dili ka naga apil sa actibidades sa GKK diha sa kapilya ma datu kaman o pobre. Aron sila makadawat niining mga sacramento ang ilang ginahimo hangyo lubo diha sa PSK Leader nga tagaan sila ug certification, tungod lagi pod sa kalooy sa Leader muhangyo pa siya ug ingon "nga brod apil lang bisag usa lang ka kasaulogan aron makit-an ka diha sa kapilya sa mga membro kay lisod man pod ug tagaan ka nako bisag wala ka nagatambong". Mao nga dili ta angay mobasol sa simbahan, hinono-a sukna-a usa imong kaugalingon kung gihimo ba nimo ang imohang parti isip membero diha sa simbahan.

sakto ka nga wala sila gi-exempt pero giunsa man nila pagsecure ang maong mga requirements? sakto gihapon ka nga gihangyo lubo nila plus suborno pinaagi sa donasyon. swerte ang imong community kay ing ana ilang members madatu man ug mapobre motamod sa leaders. pero diri sa amo brod lisod na mahitabo. bisan hangyoon nga anha sa ila isaka ang birhen balibaran man gani kay busy sa trabaho ug mohatag ra ug donasyon kung kinahanglan.

Ang Oratio imperata mao ang usa ka mando nga pag ampo ug katuyo-an nga gi require sa papa o obispo para sa kalinaw o kalamidad nga nahiaguman diha sa iyang diocese. Ang pangutana aduna bay pag-ampo diha sa simbahan nga makadaut diha sa iyang komunidad?

sakto ka nga walay pag-ampo nga makadaut pero ang pagbuhat ug pag-ampo alang sa pagsupak sa usa ka nag-ung-ong nga balad-on sama ra sa pag agni sa imong mga membro pag rebelde.

Para kanako brod kanang pagbalhin sa laing tinuhuan tungod lamang sa requirements sa simbahan nga gipangayo mabaw kana nga hinungdan. Wala man gani ka kasabot sa imong daang relihiyon unya mobalhin nahinoon ka didto sa ubang relihiyon, mosamot ka na sigurog reklamo sa kadaghan nga e require sa imoha sa ubang relihiyon labi na siguro ug require ka na ug â€œtitheâ€ which is compulsory para sa ilang simbahan.

sakto jud ka nga dili unta nay angay rason nganong mobalhin ka ug relihiyon maong wala jud bitaw ko nibalhin. daghan gihapon ug mga rules ang ubang relihiyon nga dili makapaikag pero unsaon man nimo pagkumbinser ang uban sa ilang baroganan? basin mas klaro pagpasabot nila kay sa atoang mga katoliko.

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #61 on:** October 06, 2010, 12:35:21 AM »

Mao jud tinood na..but now when i go to mass i cant help wondering what the priest are saying..is true to what he is doing..only God knows..

Only God Knows. Yes, you are correct.

When I serve with a priest in mass, and dispense the Eucharist, it is through reverence to the priest. This man, who has chosen to give up his life, to sacrifice his physical Fatherhood for that of Spiritual Fatherhood.

The Priest is a man of holiness, rooted in the calling to serve the Altar of God, to raise the prayers of the faithful to the Holy Throne of God in Heaven.

These holy men, the priests of the Catholic Church are there for us during our baptism, during our times of lament when we loose a friend, a family member, are there to celebrate with us the birth and baptism of our children and grandchildren, and are there to offer us last rites on the hour of our death...

And are there for us to offer our soul to God during our funeral rites. And prays for the families who are bereaved. This alone, brother, is worth all the treasures of the earth thousands of times over.

Instead of attacking our priests and being negative to them for the cases of transgressions, we should pray for them. Pray for them when they are lonely, pray for them when they are tempted to sin, pray for them when their are burdened with the nature of human life and performing the sacred duty of Divine Praises...

I pray for them, who have sacrificed their own bodies , their life, for a life with Christ.
Their duties, brother, are to pray for us...and be there for us when we need them.

As any of us laymen who falter in times , so too do our priests.

Amen!

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ben · « **Reply #62 on:** October 06, 2010, 09:09:35 AM »

Arguing like this about religion is pointless. It's highly unlikely that anyone with a strong investment in their beliefs will ever change their position since faith trumps reason.

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islander · « **Reply #63 on:** October 06, 2010, 10:16:55 AM »

Arguing like this about religion is pointless. It's highly unlikely that anyone with a strong investment in their beliefs will ever change their position since faith trumps reason.

right on, mr ben. faith isn't faith if everything that one believes in can be supported by human reason. by itself, human reason can't take in everything to begin with.

if i knew the reason for everything, of what use then is going on with life when it shall have been reduced to humdrumness, devoid of mysteries and the excitement that such mysteries bring? i shall have been reduced to a mere lamppost, watching the world go by because there is nothing more to discover, nothing to look forward to.

i believe that magellan landed in the philippines. i wasn't there. i know that the himalayas exist. i was never there. i know there are two filipinos working in a laboratory in antartica. i never met them. i know all of you here in tb are alive and well. do i have to meet you all for an eb to believe that you are all real?

such is faith, and the greatest mystery of it all is my faith in my merciful creator, no matter what form my worship of him takes.

my own blind faith: if it does good at what my reason tells me is good, it must be good.

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #64 on:** October 06, 2010, 10:19:12 AM »

Arguing like this about religion is pointless. It's highly unlikely that anyone with a strong investment in their beliefs will ever change their position since faith trumps reason.

Five theses about faith and reason

1. There can be no genuine conflict between the deliverances of faith and the deliverances of reason (vs. both enlightenment rationalism (or modernism)), which separates reason from faith and gives exclusive preference to reason, and anti-secularism (or fideism), which separates reason from faith and gives exclusive preference to faith).

2. Apparent conflicts are in principle resolvable by us, though this demands that we get very clear about just what the deliverances of faith are and just what the deliverances of reason are. (Side note: with regard to the mysteries, we can at least show by natural reason that they are not self-contradictory or intrinsically incoherent--this is the burden of book 4 of the Summa Contra Gentiles.)

3. Philosophical or scientific objections to the faith can and should be answered on their own terms--this is an important task for Christian intellectuals (vs. anti-secularist tendencies).

4. Reason, while not so corrupted by sin that on its own it yields falsehoods as certitudes, nonethess needs the guidance of faith to do its best (vs. rationalist tendencies).

5. Philosophical reason is an important tool in spreading and maintaining the faith.

-St. Thomas Aquinas

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #65 on:** October 06, 2010, 10:21:15 AM »

right on, mr ben. faith isn't faith if everything that one believes in can be supported by human reason. by itself, human reason can't take in everything to begin with.

if i knew the reason for everything, of what use then is going on with life when it shall have been reduced to humdrumness, devoid of mysteries and the excitement that such mysteries bring? i shall have been reduced to a mere lamppost, watching the world go by because there is nothing more to discover, nothing to look forward to.

i believe that magellan landed in the philippines. i wasn't there. i know that the himalayas exist. i was never there. i know there are two filipinos working in a laboratory in antartica. i never met them. i know all of you here in tb are alive and well. do i have to meet you all for an eb to believe that you are all real?

such is faith, and the greatest mystery of it all is my faith in my merciful creator, no matter what form my worship of him takes.

my own blind faith: if it does good at what my reason tells me is good, it must be good.

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ben · « **Reply #66 on:** October 06, 2010, 10:29:22 AM »

Five theses about faith and reason

1. There can be no genuine conflict between the deliverances of faith and the deliverances of reason (vs. both enlightenment rationalism (or modernism)), which separates reason from faith and gives exclusive preference to reason, and anti-secularism (or fideism), which separates reason from faith and gives exclusive preference to faith).

2. Apparent conflicts are in principle resolvable by us, though this demands that we get very clear about just what the deliverances of faith are and just what the deliverances of reason are. (Side note: with regard to the mysteries, we can at least show by natural reason that they are not self-contradictory or intrinsically incoherent--this is the burden of book 4 of the Summa Contra Gentiles.)

3. Philosophical or scientific objections to the faith can and should be answered on their own terms--this is an important task for Christian intellectuals (vs. anti-secularist tendencies).

4. Reason, while not so corrupted by sin that on its own it yields falsehoods as certitudes, nonethess needs the guidance of faith to do its best (vs. rationalist tendencies).

5. Philosophical reason is an important tool in spreading and maintaining the faith.

-St. Thomas Aquinas

And Martin Luther had very different ideas! But we'd better keep quiet about that for fear of offending Lutherans

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islander · « **Reply #67 on:** October 06, 2010, 10:31:52 AM »

that is why i'm beginning to feel strange about this thread. what has celdran got to do with the inquisition? let me hazard a guess: celdran is right to oppose the catholic church's stand against the rh bill because of the inquisition. agoizt, to follow the expression of scarbzy migs and her quaint language.

i can't help but liken the current catholic church now to someone who is hanged for theft just because his great, great, great, greatgrandfather stole a cow.

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #68 on:** October 06, 2010, 10:45:46 AM »

that is why i'm beginning to feel strange about this thread. what has celdran got to do with the inquisition? let me hazard a guess: celdran is right to oppose the catholic church's stand against the rh bill because of the inquisition. agoizt, to follow the expression of scarbzy migs and her quaint language.

i can't help but liken the current catholic church now to someone who is hanged for theft just because his great, great, great, greatgrandfather stole a cow.

hehe, very interesting point Isles.

I also had a very lively discussion with a good friend of mine on his opposition to Catholic theology (which quite interestingly goes in line with Ben's request, since my friend was a Lutheran). The topic(s) that we touched upon were on the Catholic notion of sacred tradition, and his analysis, his points were mostly biblical passages. What amazed me was that he actually had the false idea that Catholics don't read the bible and was rather interested when I told him that it was the Roman Catholic Church that formally compiled, and ratified the Holy Bible at the convening of the Council of Trent.

The Great Reformation happened for a reason, not to mention the many Ecumenical Councils that have been convened through the centuries.

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #69 on:** October 06, 2010, 10:48:08 AM »

And Martin Luther had very different ideas! But we'd better keep quiet about that for fear of offending Lutherans

hehehe. His ideas were removing over 7 Books from the Bible, not surprisingly how these 7 books supported Ecclesia Catholica on teachings of the Sacraments and Sacred Tradition.

Like all things, we want to read the real thing right? When reading a formal document, we would prefer the complete form rather than the cut , incomplete form right? Martin Luther did exactly just that---Cutting.

The Protestant Bible is the incomplete form; it lacks 7 books that are included in the Roman Catholic Holy Bible [the Unadulterated Original]

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islander · « **Reply #70 on:** October 06, 2010, 10:51:30 AM »

as this thread is about carlos "damaso" celdran, let's then take a look at him. here he is:

as a female, i can't say he's much of a looker. but he's passable enough to merit his own 15 minutes of fame with his misplaced stunt. (by misplaced, i mean the church as the wrong venue for his theatrical performance, his opinion about the rh bill notwithstanding.) i'm pissed off by his facial expression in this particular picture, though. enjoying the swim in the muck of publicity, huh?

but celdran could have ruled the world's news lanes some more if he shouted to the world, complete with unexpected mooning (show us your arse, kid!), that he regrets that the rh bill wasn't an issue when his mother bore him because he would have been thankful if he were never born.

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #71 on:** October 06, 2010, 11:14:38 AM »

Looking at this picture, I cant help but smirk. He wears a top hat quite similar to media's portrayal of what Rizal wore and a black coat. He came into a church and disturbed worship not because of his opposition to Catholic antagonism towards the RH bill, nay, he did this for his own personal glory.
Yes, you sure did get your minute of 'fame', Celdran, whatever fame a jail cell gives you.

So now he can bloat in his tours that he 'protested' against the Catholic Church. lol.

Pathetic.

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JellyBean · « **Reply #72 on:** October 06, 2010, 12:14:01 PM »

What exactly do you mean?

Your judging others?

Is it not said in the bible that God will be the one to judge and decide on the final day.

I do not think you me or my neighbor is a judge and someone in here needs to get off their high horse and stop contradicting others in what they say as if they are on a righteous trip!

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Chongki · « **Reply #73 on:** October 06, 2010, 12:16:28 PM »

whaaaaaaaaa

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #74 on:** October 06, 2010, 12:23:34 PM »

What exactly do you mean?

Your judging others?

Is it not said in the bible that God will be the one to judge and decide on the final day.

I do not think you me or my neighbor is a judge and someone in here needs to get off their high horse and stop contradicting others in what they say as if they are on a righteous trip!

No, Priscilla, not judging. Merely saddened by his manner of actions that have disturbed many in that mass because of his lack of respect. His action was politically motivated {And possibly a publicity stunt}, and doing so in a house of worship is , in my point of view, unacceptable and disrespectful.

Would it not be similar if a protester came inside a Mormon Temple and shouted in protest because of the Mormon situation of polygamy in Utah, United States? The same concept applies...

No one is judging anyone, merely sharing our views on the way he handled this unfortunate event...

Indeed, no one has the right to judge, you yourself have no right to judge Catholic Tradition and our belief systems. And the judging of 'Philippine persons' because it may not liken to what you would have them.

Before you share a criticism, take a dose of your medicine at times.

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #75 on:** October 06, 2010, 12:35:04 PM »

I do not think you me or my neighbor is a judge and someone in here needs to get off their high horse and stop contradicting others in what they say as if they are on a righteous trip!

No one is riding a horse, rather, we walk on our own two feet and speak the truth.

1. Celdran was found guilty of violating Article 133 of the Revised Penal Code of the Republic of the Philippines
2. Celdran disturbed a Roman Catholic Mass with hundreds of celebrants attending, in order to lambast the Church.
3. He violated a law, and hence, the people have the right to show disdain and complaint. Just as those who are caught stealing, killing, and maligning (libelous) are prosecuted, must be held accountable for their actions before a court of law and the People.

4. You came in accusing and judging the Catholic Practice of Child baptism and calling it unbiblical, which is totally unsupported since there was a biblical verse that I gave you to answer your qualms
5. You came in here accusing and judging the notion of Mother Mary being unbiblical and directly attacked the faith of many Filipinos and People around the world.
6. You yourself are acting like a judge; so before you claim others being judgmental, look at your own actions. That, Priscilla, is an act of Hypocrisy.

Truly,
Lorenzo

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islander · « **Reply #76 on:** October 06, 2010, 12:37:33 PM »

whaaaaaaaaa

whaaaaaaaaa pa gyod.

(naunsa na man ni.

kini gyod si celdran...)

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #77 on:** October 06, 2010, 12:42:51 PM »

whaaaaaaaaa pa gyod.

(naunsa na man ni.

kini gyod si celdran...)

Ajaw pag ingon ana, Isles, ma ingnan ka nga nag judgmental ka.

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islander · « **Reply #78 on:** October 06, 2010, 12:49:06 PM »

kun moingon ko nga "kini gyod si celdran, arang guwapoha...", judgmental ba gihapon ko? kun moingon ko nga "kini gyod si celdran, batiag nawong...", judgmental ba pod? this word must be used sparingly then, because if one says something positive or agrees with another person, it looks like one is far from being judgmental even if the process is the same, that is, giving an opinion plain and simple. if it's the other way around... uh-huh...

anyways, i hope you never run out of energy in your defense of catholicism. we're reading.

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #79 on:** October 06, 2010, 12:51:11 PM »

To the Topic:
An interesting blog article that I want to share with the rest of Tubag Bohol Dot Com,

So, Carlos Celdran of the Intramuros walking tour fame is in jail. Wearing a Jose Rizal costume, he walked up to the church altar during a mass holding a placard that says, â€œDamaso.â€ The message is clear. He is calling the Catholic clergy tyrants for its anti-reproductive health bill stance.

I agree with Celdranâ€™s message. Itâ€™s been my message for the longest time â€” the Catholic Church should stop meddling in State affairs. The actuations of the Catholic Bishops Conference of the Philippine (CBCP) are an even bigger sore as far as Iâ€™m concerned.

Sure, Celdran has stirred enough controversy especially with his arrest. The theatrical protest will be talked about for years and, hopefully, will generate enough interest for people to talk about the real issue behind the protest.

But does the end justify the means? Iâ€™ve been asked why Iâ€™m not supporting the Free Carlos Celdran movement. I canâ€™t. Heâ€™s not in jail because of his message â€” heâ€™s in jail because of the method by which he chose to deliver his message. And he admits that.

Letâ€™s be very clear about one thing. Heâ€™s not in jail because his right to free expression is being suppressed. A lot of stupid comments on the internet are making it out as though Celdran is being prevented from saying his piece. Hell, no. Heâ€™s in jail because of his method â€” he disrupted an effing mass. And I find that so doggone unnecessary.

Itâ€™s so high school. Itâ€™s so juvenile. And even as a form of political protest, it is so divisive because instead of getting the â€œfaithfulâ€ to discuss the real issue, theyâ€™re just going to be turned off with the methodology.

Art. 133. Offending the religious feelings. â€” The penalty of arresto mayor in its maximum period to prision correccional in its minimum period shall be imposed upon anyone who, in a place devoted to religious worship or during the celebration of any religious ceremony shall perform acts notoriously offensive to the feelings of the faithful.

That legal provision applies to any religion. It is there to support the Constitutional right to the free exercise of religion.

http://houseonahill.net/carlos-celdran-machiavellian-no-doubt/

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #80 on:** October 06, 2010, 12:58:15 PM »

kun moingon ko nga "kini gyod si celdran, arang guwapoha...", judgmental ba gihapon ko? kun moingon ko nga "kini gyod si celdran, batiag nawong...", judgmental ba pod? this word must be used sparingly then, because if one says something positive or agrees with another person, it looks like one is far from being judgmental even if the process is the same, that is, giving an opinion plain and simple. if it's the other way around... uh-huh...

anyways, i hope you never run out of energy in your defense of catholicism. we're reading.

Indeed. I guess it goes in line with what they say, nothing is ever good enough / or bad enough for certain individuals.
Bah, the ludicrous notion that we are Judging Celdran. Celdran was already Judged. Judged by his violation of A Philippine Law.
And when in the Republic of the Philippines, all people (Filipino citizens, foreigners alike) must bow before the Law of the Land.
Just as how American Law requires Citizens and foreign visitors to respect and adhere to the Law of the land.

The issue here, which is rather interesting, is not that Celdran's constitutional right were violated, Nay!
This is the beauty of how Constitutional Rights apply only to a certain degree--until the one expressing violates the rights of others.

Celdran disagreed with The Catholic Church's stance on the RH Bill. Fine. Join the rest.
However, the way he carried his opposition to Church stance is what found him--in Jail.
By marching inside a Church service, when hundreds of faithful are observing mass, in order just to make a political point, that itself is already deemed a publicity stunt. I dare say this because it is. The man came into church dressed up as Jose Rizal yelling 'DAMASO' (a controversial Catholic priest in Jose Rizal's work) to attract attention and even when he was peacfully escorted out, was shouting vulgarities at the faithful.
This is already deemed as verbal harassment, to the parishoners present, to the priests.

Had he done this in a Protestant Church, Mormon Temple, Muslim Mosque, Jewish Temple, he would have been arrested as well.

His actions, the way he carried out his actions, is what is being talked about. Not his political agenda.

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #81 on:** October 06, 2010, 01:06:39 PM »

Rhetorical question:

A convicted serial killer was found guilty of killing 12 people was sentenced to life imprisonment. A mother of 3 children speaks out of disgust and says, "That disgusting murderous scum! He deserves to rot in jail!", would it be idealistic if we were to say to the mother, "Don't say that, you self righteous lady, don't be judgmental!" ?

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chriswise · « **Reply #82 on:** October 06, 2010, 02:20:54 PM »

ah, very nice, indeed. By this verse, it nullifies men who claimed to be prophets such as Muhammad (Islam) and Joseph Smith (Mormonism).
Since Christ Is the Word Made Flesh, The Seal of Revelation, no man or prophet will come after him. For when He comes again, it will summon the end of the world.

ang galing mo sir,,,tama yon,,,

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Scarb · « **Reply #83 on:** October 06, 2010, 03:57:28 PM »

No, Priscilla, not judging. Merely saddened by his manner of actions that have disturbed many in that mass because of his lack of respect. His action was politically motivated {And possibly a publicity stunt}, and doing so in a house of worship is , in my point of view, unacceptable and disrespectful.

Would it not be similar if a protester came inside a Mormon Temple and shouted in protest because of the Mormon situation of polygamy in Utah, United States? The same concept applies...

No one is judging anyone, merely sharing our views on the way he handled this unfortunate event...
- Mao jud na ijaha kon mo reply ka sa iyang post and cite ur general views,ingon dayon sya contradict daw ka.
-Sya ra pod naigo sa ija gizulti..toinks

Indeed, no one has the right to judge, you yourself have no right to judge Catholic Tradition and our belief systems. And the judging of 'Philippine persons' because it may not liken to what you would have them.
-Ja ja..what about her sarcasmus about water in plastic bottle kono? What about emphazising collection in a basket kono?
What about stating a satue of a lady being parade (her lines) daw? Unza man na wla sya mag judge sa religious tradition sa uban?

Before you share a criticism, take a dose of your medicine at times.
-Butangi..tua na adah takianga woi..tyahaha

Jehee bravo BranÂ²..absolutely korekimouz jud ka..!

Unja kon mo disagree ka sa ija post, negative na daw ka..bazin guzto nya segihan sya ug dayeg ug mag tandoÂ² laman tas ijang gipangyawit? Well, if datz the case..this is no longer called a forum (give and take interaction) hmnn

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vrglguapo · « **Reply #84 on:** October 06, 2010, 04:08:29 PM »

Jehee bravo BranÂ²..absolutely korekimouz jud ka..!

Unja kon mo disagree ka sa ija post, negative na daw ka..bazin guzto nya segihan sya ug dayeg ug mag tandoÂ² laman tas ijang gipangyawit? Well, if datz the case..this is no longer called a forum (give and take interaction) hmnn

Mao jud ,mao bitaw nga dili ko sigi ug paoyon sa ubang mga thread diri (correct ka sir)(tama ka mam)...a-s su-k-r...

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Scarb · « **Reply #85 on:** October 06, 2010, 04:24:35 PM »

Mao jud ,mao bitaw nga dili ko sigi ug paoyon sa ubang mga thread diri (correct ka sir)(tama ka mam)...a-s su-k-r...

Ky mao man kuyaGuaps (ajaw pag maam hoi)

If we disagree and cite our views base on general perceptives..lainon na ang sabaw...! bunÃ¶..! bwahaha

We are not fault-finder..aren't we?

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Scarb · « **Reply #86 on:** October 06, 2010, 04:34:44 PM »

About Celdran's case;

"kurz und bÃ¼ndig",,,! > briefly and succinctly

Dli ang RH Bill thingy (issue) ang makapaprizo nya..kon dli ang pag surambaw nya sa Holy Mass..!
ka sayning(sayon) ra ana ah..nganong lisodlisoron man jud atong pahak ba? whopÂ§

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vhinz08 · « **Reply #87 on:** October 06, 2010, 08:05:33 PM »

Ang simbahan mao ang katawhan, ang pulong sa Dios mao ang giya sa simbahan aron dili ma hi-adto sa kaalautan ang iyang katilingban. Ang pulong sa Dios nagtudlo sa paghiguma sa usag usa ug ang katuyoan sa kahalangdun sa kinabuhi, (Juan 3:16) Kay gihigugma gayud sa Dios ang kalibutan nga tungod niini gihatag niya ang iyang bugtong Anak, aron ang tanan nga mosalig kaniya dili malaglag (mahanaw), kondili may kinabuhing dayon.
Ang Ginoo nahigugma sa kalibutan pinaagi sa pagpadala sa iyang bugtong anak aron sa pagluwas sa katawhan, ang simbahan wala nanghilabut diha sa panggamhanan kon dili nangilabot para sa kaayohan sa katilingban nga mao ang simbahan.

lihok lang unta ang simbahan sa ilang tahas paglambo sa pulong sa dios ug dili nila hilabtan ang gobyerno nga naglihok pud sa ilang tahas sa pagpalambo sa panginabuhian sa mga tawo nga ilang gialagaran. dako jud ug impluwensiya ang simbahan pero sabton sad unta nila nga naa jud tawo dili madala ug kabig.

Nagalihok ang simbahan sa pagpakaylap sa kalihukan pinaagi diha sa GKK sa atong matag kapilya aron mapalambo ang pulong sa Dios. Pero daghan ang nagareklamo niini kay giisip nila kini nga extra curricular activities.

dili kaba matawag nga kristiyano kung dili ka makaapil sa kalihokan sa simbahan?

Ang pagdawat sa sakramento sa bunyag nagapamatuod nga ikaw usa ka kristiyano (Romano Katoliko).

sakto jud ka nga dili unta nay angay rason nganong mobalhin ka ug relihiyon maong wala jud bitaw ko nibalhin. daghan gihapon ug mga rules ang ubang relihiyon nga dili makapaikag pero unsaon man nimo pagkumbinser ang uban sa ilang baroganan? basin mas klaro pagpasabot nila kay sa atoang mga katoliko.

Unsaon nimo pagkumbinser sa uban nga sa imong kaugalingon mismo contra na nimo ang imong relihiyon.

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #88 on:** October 06, 2010, 11:23:14 PM »

ang galing mo sir,,,tama yon,,,

Hindi ako galing, kapatid, ang galing ay ang Dios. The verse that you provided is quite contemplative.

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #89 on:** October 06, 2010, 11:42:22 PM »

About Celdran's case;

"kurz und bÃ¼ndig",,,! > briefly and succinctly

Dli ang RH Bill thingy (issue) ang makapaprizo nya..kon dli ang pag surambaw nya sa Holy Mass..!
ka sayning(sayon) ra ana ah..nganong lisodlisoron man jud atong pahak ba? whopÂ§

Mao jud, Ms. Blue!

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bol-anon nga cebuano · « **Reply #90 on:** October 07, 2010, 03:42:02 AM »

Unsaon nimo pagkumbinser sa uban nga sa imong kaugalingon mismo contra na nimo ang imong relihiyon.

mas bati kung dili ka motingog ug dili nimo e-exercise ang imong right to speak. mas mograbe unya ang oppression kung mag sige nalang ka ug tando. dili man sad ko magkinahanglan mangombinser ug tawo kay kung ang tawo nakasabot ug ganahan sa usa ka butang dili na kinahanglan kombinseron. and again, it's not about religion. it's about opinion and idealism.

kung naay right ang mga lider modektar naa sad right ang mga member to reason out to their express opinions.

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vhinz08 · « **Reply #91 on:** October 07, 2010, 08:11:00 PM »

mas bati kung dili ka motingog ug dili nimo e-exercise ang imong right to speak. mas mograbe unya ang oppression kung mag sige nalang ka ug tando. dili man sad ko magkinahanglan mangombinser ug tawo kay kung ang tawo nakasabot ug ganahan sa usa ka butang dili na kinahanglan kombinseron. and again, it's not about religion. it's about opinion and idealism.

kung naay right ang mga lider modektar naa sad right ang mga member to reason out to their express opinions.

peace brother

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vrglguapo · « **Reply #92 on:** October 10, 2010, 04:20:15 PM »

Forget Damaso,remember Sister Christine

Forget Damaso, remember Sister Christine
By Benjamin Pimentel
INQUIRER.net First Posted 10:58:00 10/10/2010 Filed Under: Religion & Belief, Churches (organisations), Health, Women, Human Rights, Americas - Canada

CALIFORNIA, United Statesâ€”She was the nun the Catholic church threatened to excommunicate.

Too bad Sister Christine Tan is no longer around to join the latest fight against the Catholic hierarchy. She would have been a valuable ally in P-Noyâ€™s bold decision to push a key social policy, even if it meant taking on the Catholic powers-that-be.

For she herself once faced the risk of being subjected to perhaps the most painful punishment a nun or priest could imagine. The reason: She dared oppose the brutal regime of Ferdinand Marcos.

â€œOnce during martial law, when we major superiors dared oppose the dictatorship, I was summoned to Rome,â€ Sister Christine recalled in an essay she wrote before her death in 2003. â€œI remember the 14 doors that I passed through, only to be told by a cardinal that if I did not cooperate with our regime, I would be excommunicated.â€

She was unfazed by the threat.

â€œI sighed," she wrote, "not because of the senseless threat, but because of the thousands of pesos spent on fare, when this could easily have been done with a single stamp."

Now that's one gutsy religious leader worthy of respect.

As I noted in my last column, the recent Catholic hierarchy tantrum over birth control would make any Filipino lose faith in the church.

But Sister Christineâ€™s story highlights an important point: The Catholic church is not monolithic.

There are, in fact, two churches. Sister Christine represented, as one Facebook friend put it, â€œthe living progressive church.â€

And she had more than her share of battles with the other church. The institution that is so adamantly opposed to contraceptives, believes women should stay home and be subservient to their husbands, hates gays and lesbians, tells poor people to bear suffering, and tells everyone to not challenge authority with whom it is alignedâ€”even if itâ€™s a greedy bully like Marcos.

â€œAs to the institutional church, that monolithic fort of mitered men, how I suffered from their arrogance,â€ Sister Christine wrote.

â€œHow healthy it was to be misunderstood, especially by those who mattered,â€ she also said. â€œHow faith-filled it was to be the enemy of the dictator, the target of rightists. How liberating it was not to be swept by the tide.â€

A powerful insight from someone who spent most of her life swimming against the tide.

Remembering people like Sister Christine is partly why I had mixed thoughts about Carlos Celdran's famous Damaso protest.

The creative disruption of a Catholic ceremony certainly gave the Catholic establishment a much-needed joltâ€”but it was also the equivalent of a shotgun blast. It may have alienated too many people--including some members of the clergy who are probably shaking their heads in private over their superiorsâ€™ Medieval cluelessness, priests and nuns who may also be inspired by Sister Christineâ€™s life of commitment to social justice.

For hers was an amazing story of commitment and spiritual enlightenment.

Itâ€™s about a woman from a relatively affluent family who decided to become a nun, but later found the cloistered life limiting. She then discovered her calling: to be a warrior for the poor with whom she lived and struggled against the forces of injustice and greed in Philippine society.

Her battles covered a broad range of issues, from human rights and workers rights, to Philippine democracy and sovereignty.

And she never stopped fighting.

When I interviewed her in 1996 in her home in Leveriza, the urban poor community in Manila, Sister Christine was critical of how, despite the fall of the dictator, there was still so much inequality in the country under Corazon Aquino and Fidel Ramos.

â€œThere are more Marcoses todayâ€”before, there was only one,â€ she told me. â€œThat's what's wrecking our countryâ€”the politicians. There is a new elite far richer than 10 years ago and far more powerful.â€

As the showdown with the Catholic hierarchy continues, itâ€™s important to remember that, yes, Padre Damaso is still out there. (I bet there are even a few Padre Salvis around, preying not just on the meek Maria Claras, but also on the helpless Crispins and Basilios.)

But there are also other church figures that could inspire and move us.

And theyâ€™re not fictional characters from a classic novel. Theyâ€™re real people whose remarkable life stories are an important part of the Filipino epic.

In her essay, Sister Christine also said, â€œAs for adulation, positions, praises poured on meâ€”they are just bubbles that disappear with a sneeze.â€

Itâ€™s the one thing she says in that beautiful essay that I truly hope proves to be wrong.

For these days, we should recall and celebrate all that adulation and praise for a nun who personified the compassionate and socially relevant church that every Filipino would be proud to embrace.

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