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Author Topic: Who are you calling 'queer'? Do you approve of same sex marriage?  (Read 3657 times)

hofelina

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Who are you calling 'queer'?
"We're here, we're queer, get used to it."
For many years queer was an offensive term applied to homosexuals. But over the last 20 years or so, the word has been turned around and is the word chosen by some homosexuals to refer to themselves and their ideas.

Queer is the word often preferred by homosexuals who don't want to be part of the heterosexual mainstream and who believe that they would betray their identity by mimicking heterosexual culture and institutions.



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hofelina

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hofelina

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hofelina

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Re: Who are you calling 'queer'? Do you approve of same sex marriage?
« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2009, 06:41:10 AM »
Same-sex marriage assimilates gay people
If gay people are allowed to marry they will be assimilated into society and will lose their uniquely gay identity.

Queers are proud of their identity; they don't want to be assimilated.

Same-sex marriage reinforces stigmatisation
Same-sex marriage creates two classes of homosexual in the eyes of society:

'Good' homosexuals marry and are labelled as members of committed loving relationships;
'Bad' homosexuals are the ones who don't marry and are stigmatised for preferring a promiscuous life-style
Queers believe that the gay community should not sign up to a revised method of stigmatising some homosexuals.
BBC on Religion

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Re: Who are you calling 'queer'? Do you approve of same sex marriage?
« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2009, 08:00:03 AM »
YES. I have no problem about it.  We are all the same..."humans"! I have enough good friends and I like their company.

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Re: Who are you calling 'queer'? Do you approve of same sex marriage?
« Reply #5 on: January 25, 2009, 08:16:11 PM »
Hi Manay Tess,
I tried to fight the urge of not commenting on this post due to its sensitivity but since the thread title encourages one, so here is my position. But before anything else, i just want to make it very clear for I could be misunderstood, that my position doesn't in anyway despise any lesbians, gays and transgenders (LGT) per se but their act. Its not the person but the sin. Likewise, I have no intention to impose values on anyone nor trying to be hyper critical nor being an ULTRA moralist. Its just that I personally believed that the Bible could lead us to the truth in discerning this issue. Thank you for your understanding - Gener


How About Same Sex Marriage, Anyone?

Just recently, CHR advocates basic rights of LGTs; including the right of same sex marriage. Last year, I commented to an article posted by a well-known columnist regarding an article he posted in the PDI. You can view the link below.

http://opinion.inquirer.net/inquireropinion/letterstotheeditor/view_article.php?article_id=139422

I have nothing against the advocacies to promote the rights and welfare of lesbians, gays and transgendered (LGT) if this will mean protecting their rights for equal employment, access to education, right for medical attention, freedom from abuses, and other forms of discrimination, both in private and public sector. But if these rights would also allow same-sex marriage among other detestable sins, what kind of rights are that?

Our society though biased against LGTs. However, there are those who are slowly beginning to accept lesbians and gays in particular and are recognizing their contribution in the areas where they perform most like arts, fashion, etc. While there are still areas in our society who are still intolerant of gays but to push for the legalization of this same-sex marriage still doesn’t give them acceptance from those who opposed it.

(Romans 1:26-32) “Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way that men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Although, they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

(Leviticus 18:22) is clear. Do not practice homosexuality; it is a detestable sin.
 
Again, what I'm trying to say is this; that we can't really separates Biblical teachings from the present happenings regardless of one's values and beliefs for it is for these reasons why God created Laws as given to Moses - to guide how we should live our lives. Likewise, I'm not also trying to play as self-appointed rightheous here for no one among us is perfect, not even one. But doing what is wrong either can't right something that is already wrong.

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hofelina

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Re: Who are you calling 'queer'? Do you approve of same sex marriage?
« Reply #6 on: January 25, 2009, 08:32:30 PM »
Thank you for being honest with your opinion.  We are taught that God made man, Adam and Eve, male and female and nothing in between. Pope Benedict XVI said that we annihilate ourselves if we tolerate same sex relationship with the argument that we need to perpetuate ourselves through new offsprings. This is I believe and subscribe.
But I have a high respect for human rights and if they chose to be gay or lesbian, I wish them all the luck in the world. Luckily in our federal state of North Rhine Wesphalia, they are lawfully recognized as marital partners.

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Re: Who are you calling 'queer'? Do you approve of same sex marriage?
« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2009, 09:13:19 PM »
asa na man ko ani mopahiluna, oyy...(binajot) lol

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hofelina

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Re: Who are you calling 'queer'? Do you approve of same sex marriage?
« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2009, 09:43:09 PM »
Barog sa imong baroganan, apan ampingi nga magpabilin ang imong tahod sa imong isig-kaingon. ;D

Manay

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Re: Who are you calling 'queer'? Do you approve of same sex marriage?
« Reply #10 on: January 25, 2009, 11:38:30 PM »
Love the sinner, Hate the Sin.

That is my view on it.

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Re: Who are you calling 'queer'? Do you approve of same sex marriage?
« Reply #11 on: January 26, 2009, 03:50:50 AM »
Ako ra jud maka sulti mao ni:

When you and I or anybody was born in this world, one has the right to anything, anything and everything, as long as you dont commit murder. No one should judge because that is what they learned or heard, or one has told them. COMMON SENSE PIPOL! Everybody owns this world. So everyone has the:

RIGHT TO LIVE.
RIGHT TO HAVE.
RIGHT TO OWN.
RIGHT TO LOVE.
RIGHT...
RIGHT...
etc...
etc...

P-E-R-I-O-D! (dili mens ha?)

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Re: Who are you calling 'queer'? Do you approve of same sex marriage?
« Reply #12 on: January 26, 2009, 04:28:06 AM »
In the sociology of absence in gender studies, we assume absence of homosexual people  by only acknowledging men and women.  But the society where we live in is varied and dynamic.
We fail to realize that the society we live in are not only composed of men and women but people of different sexual orientations.

Great conquerors, historians, performers and the like were considered queer and different. The greatest conqueror of all times Alexander was a homosexual, this was not expound in history books because this is inimical to male power. Most of them even experienced persecution and harrassment.  This is because the socially "normal society" as they claim to be consider this as a threat to social order and norm.

Why would a macho Filipino man beat his son who revealed his real sexual orientation?  Because he does not tolerate deviation, because the society does not tolerate deviation.

The term "homophobia" comes from two latin words which means "homo" the same, and "phobia" fear.  We only fear something which poses danger on us or we only fear something or somebody who is greater than us.

Macho men are homophobic because homosexuals pose a great threat to their manhood.

More than anything else, we cannot rely on the Bible as an ultimate source of discussion for a socially sensitive topic such as gender.  We should always remind ourselves that the bible is compiled and interpreted by male hebrew scholars.  Interpretations of which is geared on a narrow male perception which has caused perpetuation of gender inequality and abuse.  We cannot even imagine a female priest, and I cannot understand why and it is not for me to debate on this. 

Reading the comments made me realize how people coming from purportedly normal sector seem to abhore homosexuality and their right to express their love and affection.

Is the purpose of marriage only multiplication? Does it logically follows that "normal" people who are sterile do not have the right to get married?  Do we force a homosexual man to marry a woman just because it is normal, not because they love each other?

Isnt it love why two people stand before the alter and make vows to love each other for the rest of their lives?

The world of "normal people" is in the process of continued revolution. 

Let me end this on a very simple observation. Have you seen a homosexual man or woman in the Philippines begging for money on the streets? Have you seen gay people standing by, drinking the entire day? I have seen a lot of normal people, who are more than a liable to the society.

Our vision of morality is viewed in a chauvinist-conservative view.  Well, we cannot imagine a gay president too.  Being gay is an indication of weakness, isnt it? Or an object of public redicule.

I cannot discuss much on morality.  We have different views and our belief on heavens maybe different too.  I just hope that when we face our creator, we can tell him, we have live the life according to our conscience unscathed of dogma. 

Each and every one of us has a different concept of God. You might have a straight God, I may have a female God, others may have a homosexual God, or a sexless God.







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Re: Who are you calling 'queer'? Do you approve of same sex marriage?
« Reply #13 on: January 26, 2009, 04:33:40 AM »
I just hope for a socially sensitive and dogma-free academic discussion not purely based on the bible otherwise we find ourselves standing on plaza Rizal, discussing the bible and ending up throwing the bible on each other.

I hope that the sexless, gender sensitive and just Holy Spirit would descend upon us and would lead us to a more valid argument.

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Re: Who are you calling 'queer'? Do you approve of same sex marriage?
« Reply #14 on: January 26, 2009, 04:41:04 AM »
The Boholanos strongly believe in "Gaba" or karma or "Baliw" or cursed.  I have not seen homosexuals cursed to perpetual poverty and hunger.  But I have seen macho men beating their wives.  I have seen men suffering from deteriorating ego.  I have seen men persuading and using women as suicide bombers.  I have seen men killing millions of jews.  I have seen men bombing hiroshima and nagasaki.  I have seen men eliminating ethnic minority.  I have seen men bringing the world into war, bringing economic crisis and detaining innocent prisoners in Guantanamo.

The is all because of addiction to male power. 

Homosexuality is a prostitution to the male power.  It is a disgust to an honorable gender.  If its difficult for woment to be women, it is a horror for gays to be gays, because the world is normal and for normal people only.  Only normal people have rights, only normal people are morally upright. 



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Re: Who are you calling 'queer'? Do you approve of same sex marriage?
« Reply #15 on: January 26, 2009, 04:42:53 AM »
We may not notice it but it is.  We cannot imagine a wife discussing important issues and making difficult decisions.

Because it is a mans job, it is a mans power.

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Re: Who are you calling 'queer'? Do you approve of same sex marriage?
« Reply #16 on: January 26, 2009, 04:51:37 AM »
Maybe one of us here would believe that gays are migrant aliens from mars? right?

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Re: Who are you calling 'queer'? Do you approve of same sex marriage?
« Reply #17 on: January 26, 2009, 04:54:12 AM »
We may not notice it but it is.  We cannot imagine a wife discussing important issues and making difficult decisions.

Because it is a mans job, it is a mans power.


Agree Yee. One must remember, it's all men who wrote the bible...=)

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Re: Who are you calling 'queer'? Do you approve of same sex marriage?
« Reply #18 on: January 26, 2009, 05:09:29 AM »
May tama ka sa sinabi mo but remember that the Holy Bible was written not just as a book or any book , ´´Holy Bible`` inspired by the Holy Spirit ayaw intawon ninyo iapel apel sa diskusyon ninyo kung kinsa ang tama at mali dahil kining tanan ay usa ra ang pinanggalingan ´´ang diyos lang ang nakaka-alam ng lahat``sa mundo kaya ang gawin ninyo ay kung alin ang tama para sa iyo at saan ka malipayon then you have the right to live sa buhay na hiram lang sa atong ginoo.

goodluck sa tanan ug magmalipayon ug malinawon sa pagpuyo !


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Re: Who are you calling 'queer'? Do you approve of same sex marriage?
« Reply #19 on: January 26, 2009, 05:10:55 AM »
I don't believe that anyone has the right to use personal and lecherous comments on anyone. Despite their sexual preference, their age, their gender, and physical and or mental limitations.

It goes for both aspects of the spectrum. Conservatives as well as Liberal views.

But here in Tubag Bohol, we all have the right to share our views on a particular thread, so long as we will abide by the forum board rules and adhere to proper social and forum etiquette.

We all have different views, we all come from different parts of the world and subscribe to different mores and ethos. In order to maintain a proper union, we must shore respect for each views. Even if it is different from our own.


In the words of Voltaire,

"I may not agree to what you have to say, but I will defend your right to say it."




Best,
Bran Lorenzo


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Re: Who are you calling 'queer'? Do you approve of same sex marriage?
« Reply #20 on: January 26, 2009, 05:13:28 AM »

Agree Yee. One must remember, it's all men who wrote the bible...=)

Excuse me, Ate Belle,

I mean no disrespect,

It is a Holy Book. The Holy Bible is God-Breathed and written by men whose hearts and minds were under the care of the Holy Spirit. Who proceeds from the FATHER and THE SON.


Firmly,
Bran Lorenzo

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Re: Who are you calling 'queer'? Do you approve of same sex marriage?
« Reply #21 on: January 26, 2009, 05:18:08 AM »
Hi Manay Tess,
I tried to fight the urge of not commenting on this post due to its sensitivity but since the thread title encourages one, so here is my position. But before anything else, i just want to make it very clear for I could be misunderstood, that my position doesn't in anyway despise any lesbians, gays and transgenders (LGT) per se but their act. Its not the person but the sin. Likewise, I have no intention to impose values on anyone nor trying to be hyper critical nor being an ULTRA moralist. Its just that I personally believed that the Bible could lead us to the truth in discerning this issue. Thank you for your understanding - Gener


How About Same Sex Marriage, Anyone?

Just recently, CHR advocates basic rights of LGTs; including the right of same sex marriage. Last year, I commented to an article posted by a well-known columnist regarding an article he posted in the PDI. You can view the link below.

http://opinion.inquirer.net/inquireropinion/letterstotheeditor/view_article.php?article_id=139422

I have nothing against the advocacies to promote the rights and welfare of lesbians, gays and transgendered (LGT) if this will mean protecting their rights for equal employment, access to education, right for medical attention, freedom from abuses, and other forms of discrimination, both in private and public sector. But if these rights would also allow same-sex marriage among other detestable sins, what kind of rights are that?

Our society though biased against LGTs. However, there are those who are slowly beginning to accept lesbians and gays in particular and are recognizing their contribution in the areas where they perform most like arts, fashion, etc. While there are still areas in our society who are still intolerant of gays but to push for the legalization of this same-sex marriage still doesn’t give them acceptance from those who opposed it.

(Romans 1:26-32) “Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way that men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Although, they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

(Leviticus 18:22) is clear. Do not practice homosexuality; it is a detestable sin.
 
Again, what I'm trying to say is this; that we can't really separates Biblical teachings from the present happenings regardless of one's values and beliefs for it is for these reasons why God created Laws as given to Moses - to guide how we should live our lives. Likewise, I'm not also trying to play as self-appointed rightheous here for no one among us is perfect, not even one. But doing what is wrong either can't right something that is already wrong.

Gener,

Thank you very much for sharing your view. It takes courage and spirit to express one's views against a plethora of different/opposing views and arguments.

And yes, those verses in scripture are indeed true. In the Old Testament.

For me, I have nothing wrong or ill intent towards homosexuals or lesbians, bisexuals and or transgendered.

It is their decision and their will.

We can only pray for them. As Love and Forgiveness is what surmounts in our Faith. That I am confident of.

Love the Sinner. Hate The Sin.


Lorenzo,

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Re: Who are you calling 'queer'? Do you approve of same sex marriage?
« Reply #22 on: January 26, 2009, 05:29:41 AM »
I hope prayers do really save souls.  I hope prayers do also stop men from destroying humanity and civilization just in pursuit of power.

Would it not be harder for Barack Obama to win the presidency if he was really a muslim as the republicans insinuate? would it not be impossible for Barack Obama if he was a gay? 

A theoretically defined "abnornal sector" as prescribed by the purportedly "normal" sector does not have any right to govern the "normal" and majority population, isnt it ?

If Clinton had an affair with a gay man instead of Monica Lewinsky would he be able to finish his power?

The bible is meant to enlighten people, and not as a source of oppression and injustice.  I hope and pray the sexless and genderless Holy Spirit will descend upon us. 

Maybe not now, not tomorrow, but it will.

I hope and pray that we share this world to the other occupants of this world, gays, monkeys, cows, chicken.. whoever and whatever they are.

If we know how to share love, we also know how to share rights, rights to existence, right to live, right to love.

After all.  We may die and we do not know where we go.  Maybe the chauvinist chrisitian belief is right, may be not..

The only important rule that I know in human existence and relation is respect.  If we learn to respect, no woman is beaten by a man, no gay is deprived from his right, no tree is being cut without being replaced, no man would try to kill another.

There can only be real love when there is respect.  It is the foundation of all relationships.  You dont love a person first, you respect and accept a person first who she or he is, embrace him of her whoever she is, then later love follows.



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Re: Who are you calling 'queer'? Do you approve of same sex marriage?
« Reply #23 on: January 26, 2009, 05:36:11 AM »
Rah rah rah, Inday Ayessa pls mention our political personalities here in Germany who are openly gay but they enjoy the full respect of its constituents. ;)

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Re: Who are you calling 'queer'? Do you approve of same sex marriage?
« Reply #24 on: January 26, 2009, 05:39:00 AM »
Roy,

I will defend Gener's point of view because he is pointing out a verse from scripture; in The Old Testament.

We must not pick and choose which verse in scripture appeal to us, as all of Scripture in Unison with Tradition--compels us to the Truth.

We all yearn for forgiveness, we all yearn for compassion, and Understanding.

Nothing in this materialistic, finite world will comfort, and it is only in Christ Jesus--beloved of The Father, that we receive this comfort. This is in my view, and I firmly believe it.

Homosexuality is a Sin. In the end, we all fall short from the glory of God. We all sin. Does not matter what the sin is--as all sin is detestable to the Lord.

But even a sinner can receive salvation. The Love of Christ and His Father pardons such sin.

Lorenzo,



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Re: Who are you calling 'queer'? Do you approve of same sex marriage?
« Reply #25 on: January 26, 2009, 05:39:16 AM »
Excuse me, Ate Belle,

I mean no disrespect,

It is a Holy Book. The Holy Bible is God-Breathed and written by men whose hearts and minds were under the care of the Holy Spirit. Who proceeds from the FATHER and THE SON.


Firmly,
Bran Lorenzo


Again Dodong, it is what you believe. Im not against the Bible but that causes too much CHAOS amongst people who followed it seriously.



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Re: Who are you calling 'queer'? Do you approve of same sex marriage?
« Reply #26 on: January 26, 2009, 05:44:06 AM »
We follow it because we are Christian.
It is fundamental to Our Faith and having a better understanding of Our Lord.

:)

To follow The Teachings of the Bible does not cause Chaos. It is when one misinterprets biblical scripture for a political motive and for power--that is when it corrupts.

Firmly,
Lorenzo

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Re: Who are you calling 'queer'? Do you approve of same sex marriage?
« Reply #27 on: January 26, 2009, 05:45:56 AM »


Klaus Wowereit and partner, he is currently the mayor of Berlin (SPD)



Guido Westerwelle

They are honest and hard working politicians for me.

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Re: Who are you calling 'queer'? Do you approve of same sex marriage?
« Reply #28 on: January 26, 2009, 05:50:41 AM »
Lorenzo,

A sin is commited by discernment, careful meditation of a wrongful act.  Is homosexuality a sin?

I dont know. Im not a priest.

This all I can say.  Homosexuality is not a choice.  It is either genetically factored, psychologically developed..

Transgendered people have more female chromosomes than male chromosomes. 

A person only commits a sin when he choose?  If homosexuality a choice? 

Not. No one would wish to live a life of a LGT.  No one wanted to be an object of public redicule.
No matter what you do to a gay child, inflict physical pain, psychological trauma, he will never be straight.

If God is just and righteous, how would he allow his male apostle to condemn homosexuals?

Murderers chose to kills, rapists chose to rape, liars chose to lie.

Gays never chose to be gays..


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Re: Who are you calling 'queer'? Do you approve of same sex marriage?
« Reply #29 on: January 26, 2009, 06:01:54 AM »
Roy,

No one has the right to condemn anyone. Anyone what so ever. I do not believe in condemnation, I do not believe in the taking of life at all. (Though I must battle my thoughts on serial killers and murders in death row--yes in a way I even feel that we do not have the right to kill them.)

If a person, individual, boy or girl is a homosexual, gay, bisexual or transgendered, dili man na for us to ridicule about them for being who they are.

Either it is innate or acquired over time. Because I do have friends who are gays and lesbians. Do I treat them any differently? Of course not, sure It may seem akward some times when we make jokes, pero, I still love them because they are my friends. In fact I know that there are some active catholics in my church who are gay. And what is beautiful in The Catholic Church is that we are not taught to condemn people on their sexual practices, but love them. The act of homosexuality is a sin, just like the act of adultery, the act of stealing, act of killing etc. Does not matter what sin it is, because all sins are detestable to God.

And I had a friend, a good friend of mine (as we went to catholic mass almost every sunday during my collegiate undergrad years) and he came up to me to tell me if I thought he was going to perdition. And to me, my response was, "What is he talking about?". It was then that he told me that he was a homosexual, and of course for me na kuratan ko to hear this because he was a close college friend. A former room mate, to be exact. For me, I don't think that he will go to perdition, in fact I think that The LORD loves him and all gays, lesbians, etc just like anyone else. As any other heterosexual also commits sins.

I can always remember this verse:
For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.
Romans 3:23

So we are all equal in the sight of God. As we are all sinners. But it is in faith and in believing in Our Lord Jesus, and the promise he has for us. That we are justified. Diba?

No one should boast his or her own righteousness as we are ALL sinners and ALL fall short in the eyes of Our God.

That is my view on it, and I am sharing with you all my thoughts and words.



Respectfully and In Fraternity,
Bran Lorenzo

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Re: Who are you calling 'queer'? Do you approve of same sex marriage?
« Reply #30 on: January 26, 2009, 06:05:33 AM »
In pre-colonial Philippines, individuals who are queer and different were treated with hight respect and even reverence.  The midgets were considered powerful creatures, and the great Babaylans were women and gays. karyapa was the most popular and respected Bol-anon poet, not a man but a woman.  Most of the gays were either great poets ( tigbabalak)  or witches.  Gays were even considered to have supernatural powers.  Havent you asked yourselfs why the winds, storms and natural calamaties in the Philippines were blamed on gays?  This is because in pre-colonial Philippines, they were babaylans or witches who could either cast a very bad spell or heal sickness.

Transgenderism

We know from Spanish accounts of encounters between conquistadores and the archipelago’s various indios that gender crossing and transvestism were cultural features of early colonial and thus, presumably, pre-colonial communities. Local men dressed up in women’s apparel and acting like women were called, among other things, bayoguin, bayok, agi-ngin, asog, bido and binabae.
They were significant not only because they crossed male and female gender lines. To the Spanish, they were astonishing, even threatening, as they were respected leaders and figures of authority.
To their native communities they were babaylan or catalonan: religious functionaries and shamans, intermediaries between the visible and invisible worlds to whom even the local ruler
(datu) deferred. They placated angry spirits, foretold the future, healed infirmities, and even reconciled warring couples and tribes. Donning the customary clothes of women was part of a larger transformation, one that redefined their gender almost completely as female. We may
more properly call them ‘gender crossers’ rather than cross dressers, for these men not only assumed the outward appearance and demeanor of women, but were granted social and symbolic recognition as ‘somewhat-women.’ They were comparable to women in every way except
that they could not bear children. Cronicas tell us they were ‘married’ to men,
with whom they had sexual relations. These men treated their womanish partners
like concubines; being men, they had wives with whom they had their obligatory children.


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Re: Who are you calling 'queer'? Do you approve of same sex marriage?
« Reply #31 on: January 26, 2009, 06:12:43 AM »
Ako ra jud maka sulti mao ni:

When you and I or anybody was born in this world, one has the right to anything, anything and everything, as long as you dont commit murder. No one should judge because that is what they learned or heard, or one has told them. COMMON SENSE PIPOL! Everybody owns this world. So everyone has the:

RIGHT TO LIVE.
RIGHT TO HAVE.
RIGHT TO OWN.
RIGHT TO LOVE.
RIGHT...
RIGHT...
etc...
etc...

P-E-R-I-O-D! (dili mens ha?)



Abortion is also murder, Ate Belle.

The tenents of Medical Embryology, (which is instructed to Nurses and Physicians etc)
states that there different stages of Human Life.

The first stage begins in conception.
Second stage is the Fetal intra-uterine stage
Third Stage is Post-Uterine or Neonate stage
Fourth Stage is Infancy
Fifth Stage is Childhood
Sixth Stage is Adolescence
Seventh Stage is Adulthood
Eighth Stage is The Geriatric Stage (Senescence)

And finally, Physiological Death.



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Re: Who are you calling 'queer'? Do you approve of same sex marriage?
« Reply #32 on: January 26, 2009, 06:17:31 AM »
       Some argue that since homosexual behaviour is "unnatural" it is contrary to the order of creation. Behind this pronouncement are stereotypical definitions of masculinity and femininity that reflect rigid gender categories of patriarchal society. There is nothing unnatural about any shared love, even between two of the same gender, if that experience calls both partners to a fuller state of being. Contemporary research is uncovering new facts that are producing a rising conviction that homosexuality, far from being a sickness, sin, perversion or unnatural act, is a healthy, natural and affirming form of human sexuality for some people. Findings indicate that homosexuality is a given fact in the nature of a significant portion of people, and that it is unchangeable.
      Our prejudice rejects people or things outside our understanding. But the God of creation speaks and declares, "I have looked out on everything I have made and `behold it (is) very good'." . The word (Genesis 1:31) of God in Christ says that we are loved, valued, redeemed, and counted as precious no matter how we might be valued by a prejudiced world.

      There are few biblical references to homosexuality. The first, the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, is often quoted to prove that the Bible condemns homosexuality. But the real sin of Sodom was the unwillingness of the city's men to observe the laws of hospitality. The intention was to insult the stranger by forcing him to take the female role in the sex act. The biblical narrative approves Lot's offer of his virgin daughters to satisfy the sexual demands of the mob. How many would say, "This is the word of the Lord"? When the Bible is quoted literally, it might be well for the one quoting to read the text in its entirety.
      Leviticus, in the Hebrew Scriptures, condemns homosexual behaviour, at least for males. Yet, "abomination", the word Leviticus uses to describe homosexuality, is the same word used to describe a menstruating woman. Paul is the most quoted source in the battle to condemn homosexuality ( 1 Corinthians 6: 9-11 and Romans 1: 26-27). But homosexual activity was regarded by Paul as a punishment visited upon idolaters by God because of their unfaithfulness. Homosexuality was not the sin but the punishment.
      In 1 Corinthians 6:9-11, Paul gave a list of those who would not inherit the Kingdom of God. That list included the immoral, idolaters, adulterers, sexual perverts, thieves, the greedy, drunkards, revilers, and robbers. Sexual perverts is a translation of two words; it is possible that the juxtaposition of malakos, the soft, effeminate word, with arsenokoitus, or male prostitute, was meant to refer to the passive and active males in a homosexual liaison.
      Thus, it appears that Paul would not approve of homosexual behaviour. But was Paul's opinion about homosexuality accurate, or was it limited by the lack of scientific knowledge in his day and infected by prejudice born of ignorance? An examination of some of Paul's other assumptions and conclusions will help answer this question. Who today would share Paul's anti-Semitic attitude, his belief that the authority of the state was not to be challenged, or that all women ought to be veiled? In these attitudes Paul's thinking has been challenged and transcended even by the church! Is Paul's commentary on homosexuality more absolute than some of his other antiquated, culturally conditioned ideas?
      Three other references in the New Testament (in Timothy, Jude and 2 Peter) appear to be limited to condemnation of male sex slaves in the first instance, and to showing examples (Sodom and Gomorrah) of God's destruction of unbelievers and heretics (in Jude and 2 Peter respectively).
      That is all that Scripture has to say about homosexuality. Even if one is a biblical literalist, these references do not build an ironclad case for condemnation. If one is not a biblical literalist there is no case at all, nothing but prejudice born of ignorance, that attacks people whose only crime is to be born with an unchangeable sexual predisposition toward those of their own sex

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Re: Who are you calling 'queer'? Do you approve of same sex marriage?
« Reply #33 on: January 26, 2009, 06:21:08 AM »
Roy,

Please cite the site that you posted that from.

In any case, here it is:

http://jmm.aaa.net.au/articles/9409.htm



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Re: Who are you calling 'queer'? Do you approve of same sex marriage?
« Reply #34 on: January 26, 2009, 06:26:43 AM »
In pre-colonial Philippines, individuals who are queer and different were treated with hight respect and even reverence.  The midgets were considered powerful creatures, and the great Babaylans were women and gays. karyapa was the most popular and respected Bol-anon poet, not a man but a woman.  Most of the gays were either great poets ( tigbabalak)  or witches.  Gays were even considered to have supernatural powers.  Havent you asked yourselfs why the winds, storms and natural calamaties in the Philippines were blamed on gays?  This is because in pre-colonial Philippines, they were babaylans or witches who could either cast a very bad spell or heal sickness.

Transgenderism

We know from Spanish accounts of encounters between conquistadores and the archipelago’s various indios that gender crossing and transvestism were cultural features of early colonial and thus, presumably, pre-colonial communities. Local men dressed up in women’s apparel and acting like women were called, among other things, bayoguin, bayok, agi-ngin, asog, bido and binabae.
They were significant not only because they crossed male and female gender lines. To the Spanish, they were astonishing, even threatening, as they were respected leaders and figures of authority.
To their native communities they were babaylan or catalonan: religious functionaries and shamans, intermediaries between the visible and invisible worlds to whom even the local ruler
(datu) deferred. They placated angry spirits, foretold the future, healed infirmities, and even reconciled warring couples and tribes. Donning the customary clothes of women was part of a larger transformation, one that redefined their gender almost completely as female. We may
more properly call them ‘gender crossers’ rather than cross dressers, for these men not only assumed the outward appearance and demeanor of women, but were granted social and symbolic recognition as ‘somewhat-women.’ They were comparable to women in every way except
that they could not bear children. Cronicas tell us they were ‘married’ to men,
with whom they had sexual relations. These men treated their womanish partners
like concubines; being men, they had wives with whom they had their obligatory children.


What source can you provide to support this?

There was no concept of a 'Philippines' prior to the advent of Hispanic Colonization. The Archipelago was composed of multiple tribal states, minor rajanates. Additionally, the population of the archipelago was no more than 500,000; as compared to the some 8 Million Filipinos that were produced under Spanish Colonization during the eve of La Revolucion Guerra Filipinas Con Hispanola. There was no organized religion, there was no understanding of ordered social etiquette, no concept of Judiciary that we know of. And any historical evidence of such prior to Hispanization has been moot. Unless there is evidence to support such claims, before a culturo-historico-anthropological body.


In view of this to the subject matter, all I will say is that each periodic epoch in the history of Human Civilization will have its own flair and societal problems.




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Re: Who are you calling 'queer'? Do you approve of same sex marriage?
« Reply #35 on: January 26, 2009, 06:28:40 AM »
I would like to rest my case by saying, we live in a world so wild as the Amazon jungle, so strange as the changing climate.  We live as one people with different beliefs, different understandings, different genders..

I am a Christian and love my God, and believe in His words in the bible. God is a loving and just god and I hope that people would not use His words to perpetuate oppression and injustice.  Afterall, He said in the second commandment, "Do not use my name in vain."

If he didnt permit homosexuality then why are there people who have more female chromosomes than male chromosomes? Why are there children who grew up in a dominant male family who still become gay?  Why is Gender Identity Disorder considered a psychological disorder ( as in Germany)?

One can only sin when he chooses to.  Adulterers chose to betray their partners, mudereres chose to kill, liars chose to lie, stealers chose to steal, plunderers chose to plunder?
Is there a homosexual who said he chose to be a homosexual?

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Re: Who are you calling 'queer'? Do you approve of same sex marriage?
« Reply #36 on: January 26, 2009, 06:32:39 AM »
here lorenzo

history of homosexuality in the Philippines. a research from a research institute in the Netherlands

www.iias.nl/nl/35/IIAS_NL35_13.pdf

that is not  fiction, this is research Lorenzo

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Re: Who are you calling 'queer'? Do you approve of same sex marriage?
« Reply #38 on: January 26, 2009, 06:37:09 AM »
Am a Historian and I scrutinize facts and written accounts.

Garcia's writings are secondary sources.

There are no primary sources written by the Filipinos prior to Spanish Hispanization to credilute it.

Thanks for sharing the article link, tho.

Garcia morely focuses on a picture of a Filipino Bakla wearing the regalia and attire suggesting the late 19th century.

Pre Colonial Philippines was prior to 1521 and earlier.



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Re: Who are you calling 'queer'? Do you approve of same sex marriage?
« Reply #39 on: January 26, 2009, 06:38:55 AM »
here is the other source lorenzo

http://www.dignitycanada.org/sin.html

im not  fictional writer.

This link is superfluous. Am not interested in this, I was interested in your post about Pre-Colonial Philippines.



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Re: Who are you calling 'queer'? Do you approve of same sex marriage?
« Reply #40 on: January 26, 2009, 06:40:47 AM »
you were not even reading the entire article.

you only read what you want to read.  and my respects for you as a historiam, the Research Output of the Research Institute in Netherlands must be wrong as you try to insenuate.

Again Lorenzo, if you are a real historian , you should know other important sources such as oral history.

The spaniards were the chroniclers who sensationalized Spanish conquest of the Philippines.  Why would they write on something that they try to eliminate?

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Re: Who are you calling 'queer'? Do you approve of same sex marriage?
« Reply #41 on: January 26, 2009, 06:42:56 AM »
I do not want to disturb your normal world.  I would rather leave this thread to intelligent, morally upright and historically and politically correct men.

After all, facts and opinions of there people do not count.

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Re: Who are you calling 'queer'? Do you approve of same sex marriage?
« Reply #43 on: January 26, 2009, 06:48:37 AM »
Roy,

There has been little to no writings in the Historical Body regarding Philippine History prior to Hispanization. And historical analysis requires the analysis of primary sources written in that particular epoch to validate any claims, be it whatever it is.

Garcia's writings simply talks about the matestisis of homosexuality, and the manifest of transgenderism in the Philippines.

Look at his sources, it has no official writings regarding pre-colonial Philippines. No validating proof to credulate. History requires such.

The Spanish chronicled its presence in the Philippines, I submit to that, and by their written sources, which are primary documents, we, in the Historical Body can analyze the society that was predicated within that epoch in History.

Any sources written by Filipinos, either it be in Latin or Baybayin has been mute, or non-existant, regarding the homosexuality within the Philippines, transgender etc in the Archipelago prior to Pax Hispanica.

Unless there is physical documentation of such, primary sources, then it will nothing but heresay.

Secondary sources are secondary sources. Without primary documentation, one's argument will be subject to a plethora of attacks, questions and opposing opinion in an Academic Historical Community.



Best,
Lorenzo

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Re: Who are you calling 'queer'? Do you approve of same sex marriage?
« Reply #44 on: January 26, 2009, 06:49:37 AM »
European scholars are idiot maybe?

Control your tongue, Roy, you are over-reacting yet again. :)

Let us debate with composure, dignity and professionalism.


Best,
Lorenzo

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Re: Who are you calling 'queer'? Do you approve of same sex marriage?
« Reply #45 on: January 26, 2009, 07:05:19 AM »


you only read what you want to read.  and my respects for you as a historiam, the Research Output of the Research Institute in Netherlands must be wrong as you try to insenuate.

Again Lorenzo, if you are a real historian , you should know other important sources such as oral history.



I'm a traditionalist type of Historian and sing with the likes of men of my epoch such as Trever-Roper, Taylor etc. In this we regard the proper analysis of written documents, not oral history since oral history is not only subjective, partisan but also unreliable. Oral History can be distorted, diluted, added, altered.

Whereas Written Documents, per se in example, The Cuneiform, Hamurabi's Codets, Egyptian Heiroglyphics, Aztec Tablets, Incan Codets etc are cannot be altered. It is imprinted and the spirit of the document has been importalized for all generations to analyze--the way it was meant to have been read--by the writers of the given society and epoch it existed in.

As what Dr. Marwick states, "History based exclusively on non-documentary sources…may be sketchier, less satisfactory history than one drawn from documents."


Best,
Lorenzo



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