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Author Topic: RP taking China ship in Spratlys 'seriously'  (Read 2716 times)

Macky Ferniz

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RP taking China ship in Spratlys 'seriously'
« on: March 17, 2009, 09:56:22 PM »
By Christian V. Esguerra
Philippine Daily Inquirer
First Posted 20:32:00 03/15/2009

Filed Under: Foreign affairs & international relations, Conflicts (general), Laws


MANILA, Philippines -- China’s dispatch of a state-of-the-art patrol ship in the South China Sea does not necessarily smack of gunboat diplomacy, according to Malacañang, but the Palace has admitted it was taking this action seriously.

National Security Adviser Norberto Gonzales said on Sunday he decided to call for an immediate meeting of the Cabinet’s security group to discuss the Chinese action in the wake of Beijing’s protest over the signing of the Philippine Archipelagic Baselines Law.

“The deployment of the patrol ship was a message and we cannot just ignore it,” Gonzales told the Philippine Daily Inquirer in a phone interview. “We have to take it seriously.”

China’s state media reported on Sunday that the People’s Republic of China dispatched its “most modern patrol ship” in the South China Sea following an incident with a US naval vessel and the signing of the Philippine baselines law.

“This should remind us that even in this era of dialogue and understanding in the world, there will always be nations that will show might and threaten perceived weak nations like us,” Gonzales said.

Gonzales said the meeting of the national security cluster would tackle the Philippine government’s response to the ship deployment in the context of the 2002 Declaration on the Conduct of Parties in the South China Sea.

“That’s where we should be going,” he said. “The only thing we can do is to resort to diplomacy.”

In the declaration, China and Southeast Asian nations agreed to “exercise self-restraint in the conduct of activities that would complicate or escalate disputes and affect peace and stability including, among others, refraining from action of inhabiting the presently uninhabited islands, reefs, shoals, cays, and other features and to handle their differences in a constructive manner.”

China protested the signing of the baselines bill, describing it as “illegal.” But the Philippine government maintained that it was standing by its claim to the Spratly Islands and Scarborough Shoal -- an area potentially rich in oil.

The baselines law excludes the disputed Kalayaan Group of Islands and Scarborough Shoal in defining the country’s baseline points as an archipelago, treating them instead as part of a “regime of islands.”

Still, China was adamant that the Philippines was claiming its territories in the Spratlys, particularly Huangyan Island and Nansha Islands.

Gonzales said the Chinese protest could be considered as a form of diplomatic “posturing.”

Press Secretary Cerge Remonde described on Sunday Beijing’s move as a “normal conduct in international diplomacy.”

“We should not be worried about it,” he said in his Sunday media forum on state-owned Radyo ng Bayan. “The United Nations will be the final arbiter of the issue.”

Remonde maintained that the baselines law was consistent with requirements of the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea.

“What our President and our government [officials] did was in accordance to their sworn constitutional duty which is to uphold and protect the sovereignty of our country,” he said.

He said the Philippine government would also have lodged a similar diplomatic protest if China or other claimants of the disputed island came up with an official action similar to the baselines law.

No official reaction has been issued by the Department of Foreign Affairs, but a DFA official who did not wish to be named said that the Chinese move seemed to comply with the 2002 declaration, particularly its provision on notification coursed through official media.

The Beijing News said the Chinese vessel would conduct patrols of what it called China’s exclusive maritime zone in the disputed waters surrounding the Paracel and Spratly Islands, according to Agence France Presse.

The report said that the converted naval rescue ship would aid Chinese fishing boats and transport vessels.

Tensions in the area rose when the United States sent destroyers to international waters off southern China to protect a naval surveillance patrol that was involved in a stand off with Chinese vessels.

China said the US patrol vessels were within its 200-kilometer economic exclusive zone, but the United States insisted they were in international waters.

The Spratly and Paracel island chains have been flash points for years.

The Spratlys are claimed in full or part by China and Vietnam as well as the Philippines, Malaysia, Brunei and Taiwan, and the Paracels are claimed by China, which now occupies them, as well as by Vietnam and Taiwan.

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Macky Ferniz

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Re: RP taking China ship in Spratlys 'seriously'
« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2009, 11:35:34 PM »
Worst comes worst, this will lead to a sort of social revolution or patriotism that unites us all, Filipinos.

China's military presence is not only threatening the Philippines, but the U.S.A., having strategic interests in that area.

One false move from China will cause US F-15s to scramble.

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Re: RP taking China ship in Spratlys 'seriously'
« Reply #2 on: March 18, 2009, 02:57:37 AM »
Worst comes worst, this will lead to a sort of social revolution or patriotism that unites us all, Filipinos.

China's military presence is not only threatening the Philippines, but the U.S.A., having strategic interests in that area.

One false move from China will cause US F-15s to scramble.


Ayaw tawon mag gira ang CHINA! kay arang kadaghan raba na silang reserves!

naa raba na silay powers nga mas maka powers pa sa amoa diri!

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Re: RP taking China ship in Spratlys 'seriously'
« Reply #3 on: March 18, 2009, 03:55:22 AM »
dia na sad ang gira-gira nga istorya!! hahahah

ang ibaws sa mga pinoy ani, lut-hang. hahah

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Re: RP taking China ship in Spratlys 'seriously'
« Reply #4 on: March 18, 2009, 09:46:41 AM »
kong gyera gusto sa mga yellow. alangan mag magpa daug daug ta MDB! 

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Re: RP taking China ship in Spratlys 'seriously'
« Reply #5 on: March 18, 2009, 08:13:08 PM »
dia na sad ang gira-gira nga istorya!! hahahah

ang ibaws sa mga pinoy ani, lut-hang. hahah

naa poy barang sa siquijor, ayess, pwede pod na i-utilize batok mga intsik hehe

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windgate

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Re: RP taking China ship in Spratlys 'seriously'
« Reply #6 on: March 18, 2009, 08:40:07 PM »
kadghan anang mga intsik nga military.  bisan pa ug way armas-armas manganhi lang na sila sa pilipinas unja magpapresso.  pildi na ta daan kay baho nag mga ihi ???

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Re: RP taking China ship in Spratlys 'seriously'
« Reply #7 on: March 18, 2009, 09:10:51 PM »


China protested the signing of the baselines bill, describing it as “illegal.” But the Philippine government maintained that it was standing by its claim to the Spratly Islands and Scarborough Shoal -- an area potentially rich in oil.

The baselines law excludes the disputed Kalayaan Group of Islands and Scarborough Shoal in defining the country’s baseline points as an archipelago, treating them instead as part of a “regime of islands.”

Still, China was adamant that the Philippines was claiming its territories in the Spratlys, particularly Huangyan Island and Nansha Islands.

Gonzales said the Chinese protest could be considered as a form of diplomatic “posturing.”

Press Secretary Cerge Remonde described on Sunday Beijing’s move as a “normal conduct in international diplomacy.”


I don't understand why China called it "Illegal" to sign the baseline bill. Is China above the international law? Why are they so confident with thier statement; what are their basis?

If we allow an inch, one day China will claim the whole Philippines based on historical facts.

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Re: RP taking China ship in Spratlys 'seriously'
« Reply #8 on: March 18, 2009, 09:36:52 PM »
Fossil fuel is the root causes of all these woes. China without Oil to run their giant economy will suffer a meltdown in its factories. They been scrambling oil all over special in African countries.

They've courting countries with known oil reserved and invest in the form of infrasture to swap for oil.

Spratly Island will become a splash point of conflict between ASEAN Nation and China due to its claimed on some island.

American thru the VFA agreement can help if incase, We need American Military intervention.

Kalooy nato patabang napod tas Americano. Morag bata ba nga kon awayon magpalaban dayon.




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Macky Ferniz

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Re: RP taking China ship in Spratlys 'seriously'
« Reply #9 on: March 18, 2009, 10:02:58 PM »
Mao tingali nga kalit lang gi withdraw ni Nicole ang iyang kaso vs. Daniel Smith ug tua na siya sa America namuyo.

This is just mere speculation, but perhaps our government who is in need of US military support at this time helped convince Nicole to withdraw from the case.

This is a matter of choosing the less evil.

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raldampong

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Re: RP taking China ship in Spratlys 'seriously'
« Reply #10 on: March 18, 2009, 10:12:33 PM »
Mao tingali nga kalit lang gi withdraw ni Nicole ang iyang kaso vs. Daniel Smith ug tua na siya sa America namuyo.

This is just mere speculation, but perhaps our government who is in need of US military support at this time helped convince Nicole to withdraw from the case.

This is a matter of choosing the less evil.

Gaw, pakaslan nalang ni Smith si Nicole aron dili na sila mag away

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Re: RP taking China ship in Spratlys 'seriously'
« Reply #11 on: March 19, 2009, 12:47:38 AM »
Fossil fuel is the root causes of all these woes. China without Oil to run their giant economy will suffer a meltdown in its factories. They been scrambling oil all over special in African countries.

They've courting countries with known oil reserved and invest in the form of infrasture to swap for oil.

Spratly Island will become a splash point of conflict between ASEAN Nation and China due to its claimed on some island.

American thru the VAAC agreement can help if incase, We need American Military intervention.

Kalooy nato patabang napod tas Americano. Morag bata ba nga kon awayon magpalaban dayon.




wa man tingali sayop ana kung magpatabang ta...basta tabangan sa gyera, dili tabangan og patay. heehe. the powerful should protect the powerless, i think it's a common principle.



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raldampong

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Re: RP taking China ship in Spratlys 'seriously'
« Reply #12 on: March 19, 2009, 03:06:44 AM »
wa man tingali sayop ana kung magpatabang ta...basta tabangan sa gyera, dili tabangan og patay. heehe. the powerful should protect the powerless, i think it's a common principle.



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aduy

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Re: RP taking China ship in Spratlys 'seriously'
« Reply #13 on: March 21, 2009, 03:53:10 AM »
The Philippines will soon initiate border talks with its neighbors and finally confront territorial issues it has long avoided, the most contentious being the dispute with Malaysia over Sabah, now that President Gloria Macapagal-Arroyo has signed the Philippine Archipelagic Baseline Law.

The Baseline Law defines the limits of Philippine territory. It is these limits that will determine the country’s extended continental shelf, which is believed to contain substantial amounts of oil, natural gas, minerals and polymetals.

The Philippines has less than two months to beat the May 13, 2009 deadline for the submission of its claim over the extended continental shelf before the United Nations Commission on the Limits of the Continental Shelf (CLCS). The UN body, however, will not rule on a claim if it involves disputed territory.

The United Nations defines the continental shelf as the “the seabed and subsoil of the submarine areas that extend beyond its territorial sea" up to 200 nautical miles from the archipelagic baseline. A continental shelf that goes beyond 200 nautical miles is called the extended continental shelf. Archipelagic states like the Philippines may claim an extended continental shelf of up to 350 nautical miles from the baseline.

But the country’s extended continental shelf overlaps with those of seven of its neighbors: Japan, China, Vietnam, Taiwan, Palau, Malaysia and Indonesia. Of these seven, the government sees its issues with Malaysia as the most difficult to resolve, because of its claim over Sabah.

“Now we have a clear idea of what that theoretical outer limit is. I say theoretical because it will still be finalized by the UN body since that theoretical outer limit overlaps (with other countries). So that will be subject to bilateral negotiations," said lawyer Henry Bensurto, secretary-general of the Department of Foreign Affairs’ Center for Maritime and Ocean Affairs (CMOA). He added that the government would soon send feelers for possible talks.

The Sabah claim

The Philippines and Malaysia have conflicting claims over Sabah, the northern part of Borneo. The distance between Sitangkai, the southernmost village of the province of Tawi-Tawi, and Manakalan or Nala, a coastal village in east Sabah, is only some 50 kilometers.

Sabah was ceded by the Sultan of Brunei to the Sultanate of Sulu, which ruled Sabah until it was leased to the British North Borneo Company in 1878. This lease continued until the formation of the Malaysian federation in 1963. The Malaysian claim is based on a perpetual lease. The Malaysian government is still paying an annual rent of 5,300 Malaysian ringgit, or less than P70,000.

“It’s a tricky question. There is an overlap if … we accept that Sabah is theirs. So there is a certain discomfort. It’s a difficult question. If we agree (that there is an overlapping claim), that means we accept Sabah is theirs," Bensurto said.

It was in 1962 during the presidency of Arroyo’s father Diosdado Macapagal that the Philippines formally asserted that Sabah was part of its territory, based on the claims of the heirs of the Sultanate of Sulu, who had ceded proprietary rights to the Philippines. But the Sabah issue had been shelved for the sake of peaceful co-existence between the two countries.

Palmas Island

Another territorial dispute that needs to be resolved is the country’s boundary with Indonesia, which was already in Maritime Border Delimitation negotiations with the Philippines. The talks, however, were suspended because the Philippines had to settle the baseline issue first.

The point of reference in the talks with Indonesia is Palmas Island, which lies only 47 nautical miles east northeast of Sarangani province in Mindanao. The Treaty of Paris included Palmas Island, or Pulau Miangas to the Indonesians, within the Philippine territory. An arbitration ruling of the International Court of Justice in 1928, however, determined that Palmas belongs to Indonesia.

But while Philippine archipelagic baselines skirted Palmas Island, the country will still have to share an economic zone with Indonesia, given that the distance between them is less than 200 nautical miles. The exclusive economic zone is the area 200 nautical miles from the baselines seaward.

“If they (Indonesians) claim 200 nautical miles, they will cover part of our territory in the same way that if we claim 200 nautical miles, we will cover their area. So the challenge there is where to draw the line," Bensurto said.

South China Sea

The cluster of islands in the South China Sea referred to as the Spratlys is claimed in part by the Philippines, Malaysia, Taiwan and Brunei, while Vietnam and China claim the whole island-group.

The Philippines will have to square off with China and Vietnam over the Spratlys, also known as the Kalayaan Island Group, which the Philippine Archipelagic Baseline Law defined as a regime of islands within Philippine territory.

Bensurto explained there would not really be any overlapping claims with mainland China on the matter of the extended continental shelf. But because China is claiming the whole of the South China Sea, the Philippines will have to negotiate.

Another complication is seen with Taiwan. Since the Philippines adheres to the one-China policy that doesn’t recognize Taiwan as a state and only maintains diplomatic relations with the mainland, an overlap of the country’s extended continental shelf with Taiwan puts the Philippines in a serious dilemma. Relations between the Philippines and Taiwan are limited to cultural and economic matters.

Partial claim

Because these territorial disputes remain unresolved, the Philippines will have to make only a partial submission of the claim to its extended continental shelf to the UN-CLCS come the May 13 deadline.

Bensurto explained that a partial submission would effectively stop the clock, and buy the government time to settle disputes over controversial areas. “For the controversial areas we don’t give up any claim but we allow time, process, diplomacy or whatever tools available to resolve it because anyway that is not going to be subject to any deadline," Bensurto said.

The country’s extended continental shelf may also overlap with Japan in the north and Palau in the southwest. All these overlaps that will be projected from the newly enacted baselines law will have to be subject to border delimitation agreements before a complete and final submission to the UN is made.

Bensurto said that if an agreement is reached in border talks, then the Philippines could either submit unilaterally or jointly with the country concerned.



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Re: RP taking China ship in Spratlys 'seriously'
« Reply #14 on: March 21, 2009, 04:14:32 AM »
Fossil fuel is the root causes of all these woes. China without Oil to run their giant economy will suffer a meltdown in its factories. They been scrambling oil all over special in African countries.

They've courting countries with known oil reserved and invest in the form of infrasture to swap for oil.

Spratly Island will become a splash point of conflict between ASEAN Nation and China due to its claimed on some island.

American thru the VFA agreement can help if incase, We need American Military intervention.

Kalooy nato patabang napod tas Americano. Morag bata ba nga kon awayon magpalaban dayon.




Rest assured, Mr. Rald, that the United States will stand shoulder to shoulder with the Philippines in any foreign military affairs regarding the integrity of the Philippines. I have friends that are in service of the US Armed Forces and am friends with officers in the US Military.

The bond between US and Filipino militaries is a growing one. It is not only historically relevant, but to the American perspective, it is of political, military strategic importance.

The Chinese may wave their ships, and utilize gun boat diplomacy, but they will not dare fire the first shot. And they know this.

Because even if the Philippines is outnumbered and outgunned, it will still defend its own territory. In the larger geo-political scheme of things, will only be detrimental to the Chinese. American military response will be definite. And global press will see the Chinese as the aggressor.

This can result in economic woes for the Chinese. :)

The Philippines is a strategic ally of the United States; and due to this relationship, the Philippines is covered by the American Nuclear Umbrella. And thus, is 'Untouchable'.

:)

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Re: RP taking China ship in Spratlys 'seriously'
« Reply #15 on: March 21, 2009, 06:10:36 AM »
just like the case between China and Taiwan, i think

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Macky Ferniz

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Re: RP taking China ship in Spratlys 'seriously'
« Reply #16 on: March 21, 2009, 06:25:29 AM »
Yes, I remembered that China - Taiwan incident.

It was actually imbarrassing on the part of China being a huge country against a very tiny Taiwan. I praise Taiwans leader not only of bravery, but for being stubborn against China's bluf. Taiwan is firm on its belief that international community would not just stand silent specially the US.

At the end, China could only bluf by rounding up military troops facing Taiwan.

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Re: RP taking China ship in Spratlys 'seriously'
« Reply #17 on: March 21, 2009, 07:46:54 AM »
Yes, I remembered that China - Taiwan incident.

It was actually imbarrassing on the part of China being a huge country against a very tiny Taiwan. I praise Taiwans leader not only of bravery, but for being stubborn against China's bluf. Taiwan is firm on its belief that international community would not just stand silent specially the US.

At the end, China could only bluf by rounding up military troops facing Taiwan.

if there's a country to which China can really show its muscle, it's Taiwan for obvious reason. but because of the US (and with all its intent), China can only watch and wait. This is my belief when it comes to our case.

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Re: RP taking China ship in Spratlys 'seriously'
« Reply #18 on: March 21, 2009, 08:58:56 AM »
The adamancy of the Chinese to retake Taiwan (Formosa) falls in line with the dialectics for National Legitimacy. We have to take into consideration that 60 some years ago, the Republic of China headed by Jiang Jieshi (Chiang Kai Shek) was defeated and ousted from power by the communist revolutionary forces headed by Mao Zedong and with the blessings of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The expulsion of the Nationalist forces (under Jiang Jieshi) from the Mainland to the island of Formosa equivocally led to the manifestation of Communism being the political quo of the land. Since then, however, the two states: The People's Republic of China and The Republic of China have been in a state of 'quasi war'.

The Taiwanese government, have time and time again reiterated their independence from the PRC and expressed no interest in joining the mainland, and in augmentation with such dictates, has procurred interntional support for the recognition of Taiwan's Independence and Right to Exist.

The Chinese, however, maintain a 'One China Policy' and have regarded the island of Formosa as a 'rogue province' of the People's Republic of China whose unification will complete the dream of a Greater China. This notion of Chinese manifest destiny has be exacerbated after the British handing of its Oriental Crown Jewel, Hong Kong, to the Chinese in 1997 and after Portugal's acquiescing of Macao to the PRC in following years.

To Beijing, Taiwan's subjugation will legitimize the CCP (Chinese Communist Party) and end the Chinese Revolution with the silencing of the remnants of the Nationalist Forces.  This is why Taiwan is national priority for the Chinese, as its acquisition would not only be economic, but also militarily-beneficial.

Why and how so? We ask.

The answer to this is because Taiwan is a leading economic power in the Asia-Pacific region; the reunificaiton of Taiwan with China will not only strengthen and bolster the Chinese economy, but will also increase China's market and military zone of control. The take over of Taiwan will dislodge American hegemony in the region, as there is a military base in Taiwan and the ports of Taipei frequent the American 7th Fleet.

Second, the military aspect. Currently, Taiwan is a major buyer of American military arms. Most of Taiwan's navy is composed of American-built and designed AEGIS destroyers and Cyclone-class missile frigates; Taiwan also has squadrons of American-built FA/18 Super Hornets, F-15 Air Supremacy Fighters and the F/A-22 Raptor.

Take over of Taiwan will give China direct hands on to American military technology and arms information, to the detriment of the United States. So this is where our questions lie in wake.

Due to the sensitivity of the region and the importance of Taiwan in regards to the hegemony in the Western Pacific, therefore, it relegates primacy and importance for Taiwan in regards to American Foreign Policy. The United States, as the world's Sole Hyperpower maintains an ARC grid that has solidified its military-political hold on the region. Intrinsic to American hegemony is its military bases in Japan (Okinawa: note that the military base in Okinawa is eternal; this is an American right and priviledge as a clause to Japan's total and absolute surrender to American Forces in 1945), military bases in South Korea, Taiwan, Guam and in the Philippines.

Taiwan is of strategic importance to the United States Armed Forces in that it provides refueling stations for the US Pacific Fleet(s). Taiwan provides continuity between US forces in Japan and Korea to its military bastions in Basilan (Philippines) and in Guam (the Reach-base for US Fleet). The loss of Taiwan will debilitate American power parity and projection to the region at hand, so, therefore, it is of American strategic interests to keep the PRC in its reclamatory dreams of Sinic Manifest Destiny.

The Philippines, falls in line in regards to Taiwan due to the American presence in the archipelago. The shear volume of US Naval Forces in the Pacific is hard to fathom. The United States Navy has an arsenal of 18 Super Aircraft Carriers (2 more are under construction), and a majority of US Carriers are in the Pacific. Note that a US carrier does not travel alone, but is surrounded by a contingent of Subs, destroyer escorts, frigates, cruisers and support ships. A good estimate would be around 8-9 US carriers around the Indian-Pacific Oceans at any time. The Chinese, which do not have a solid navy nor do they have a blue-water fleet to contend with the United States' untouchable Fleets will not touch Taiwan. As it does not have the power to reclaim it. And its actions are under the ever-scanning eyes of the Untied States Armed Forces.

Please not that China's Combined Navy is not even equal to the United States' 7th Fleet.

The United States has multiple Fleets. :)



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Lorenzo

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Re: RP taking China ship in Spratlys 'seriously'
« Reply #19 on: March 21, 2009, 09:12:10 AM »
If the Chinese did ever try to touch the Philippines (theoretically), the American response would be quick. The 7th fleet would be dispatched to remove the Chinese and neutralize 'hostile' naval forces.

If the United States dispatches the 7th fleet, this will include AEGIS destroyers a Super Aircraft carrier. Any Chinese ships within a 150 mile radius of the Carrier task group will be labeled a threat to US forces, and as policy dictates, will be engaged.

When the US scrambles its Air Force to action from Guam, Japan, Korea, Taiwan and Basilan, any Chinese air units will be neutralized.

The Chinese air force is composed mostly of Su-27 and Mig 21 fighters.

The United States' F/A-22 Raptors will obliterate these from the skies before their radar can even detect the presence of the raptor.

:)

And there is no 'nuclear' response. China knows that America will not nuke first, but it will reserve the right to 'fire back'. If China fires just 1 ICBM to US bases/territories, the United States will unleash an entire volley of ICBMs to saturate and glass China.

As a result, China will maintain conventional military response. To which, it cannot afford to engage the United States.



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Re: RP taking China ship in Spratlys 'seriously'
« Reply #20 on: March 21, 2009, 09:23:50 AM »
and the JSF (F-35 Lightning II) soon!!!

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Lorenzo

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Re: RP taking China ship in Spratlys 'seriously'
« Reply #21 on: March 21, 2009, 09:29:16 AM »
The JSF (F-35) is the model that will replace the American F-16 Fighting Eagle. The JSF 35 serves as an attack fighter, these are built to attack and pummel military bases, and surface ships.

The F-22 RAPTOR is designed as a 4th generation Air Supremacy Fighter. It will replace the F-15, which will be phased out soon.

There is no fighter in the world that can contend with the F-22. Russian Migs, Su-33 and Flankers do not have the speed, agility, and firepower as the Raptor.

The Chinese know and realize that they cannot touch Taiwan, so they resort to threats. China resorts to military exercises and games to try to scare Taiwan.



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glacier_71

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Re: RP taking China ship in Spratlys 'seriously'
« Reply #22 on: March 21, 2009, 09:31:31 AM »
replacing also Harrier Jets, F-18 Superhornets

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Lorenzo

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Re: RP taking China ship in Spratlys 'seriously'
« Reply #23 on: March 21, 2009, 09:34:22 AM »
Yes, that too. Perhaps, the United States will donate some of its F-18s and F-16s and F-15s to the Philippine Air Force.

Uncle Sam need only to 'donate 60 or so of these fighters to the PAF.

And the PAF would have the strongest Air Force in ASEAN. :)

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glacier_71

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Re: RP taking China ship in Spratlys 'seriously'
« Reply #24 on: March 21, 2009, 09:38:24 AM »
yes yes yes...to replace our Tora-Tora and F-4s...

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Lorenzo

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Re: RP taking China ship in Spratlys 'seriously'
« Reply #25 on: March 21, 2009, 09:45:36 AM »
lol, we don't even have an air fighter. The PAF deactivated the F-5 Tigers.

We are flying old 1950s fighters and using training planes as  our primary defense fighters.

A nation of 85 million cannot even afford to purchase decent fighters for its air force.

It is so clearly obvious how the Philippines needs American alliance. Without the alliance from America, there really is nothing the AFP can do to stop an air attack.

I mean, what are we going to fight them with? Huey Helicopters?

We don't even have an air-defense grid.



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Lorenzo

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Re: RP taking China ship in Spratlys 'seriously'
« Reply #26 on: March 21, 2009, 09:52:22 AM »
To even be realistic, Glacier, if the Chinese did invade the Kalayaan group, the batallion or so of PHiippine marines would probably be expelled within a week; or die fighting.

Let us analyze the situation IF America was not our ally.

The situation would go like this:

1. China invades Kalayaan group
2. Philippine forces defend--but have no anti-air capability
3. The Philippine Air Force, composed of Huey helicopters and old 1950s / 1960s propeller planes would be shot down by Chinese Migs.
4. With the loss of any air fighter, there is nothing to stop China's bombing of Philippine urban centers: eg, Manila, Makati, Quezon, Cebu, Tagbilaran, Davao, Cagayan De Oro, Puerto Princessa.
5. Philippine Army tries to send reinforcement to Kalayaan via support ships.
6. Chinese air units strafe and sink Philippine surface ships and support ships including army units since there is no air force
7. Manila will sue for Peace.



That, is a national catastrophe that I pray will never happen.

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glacier_71

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Re: RP taking China ship in Spratlys 'seriously'
« Reply #27 on: March 21, 2009, 09:56:07 AM »
we can only afford Bronchos (Italian) and some choppers...we depend so much on "barang" and "wak-waks" to fight any foreign invaders, if they want to risk their lives hehehehe

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glacier_71

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Re: RP taking China ship in Spratlys 'seriously'
« Reply #28 on: March 21, 2009, 09:58:19 AM »
To even be realistic, Glacier, if the Chinese did invade the Kalayaan group, the batallion or so of PHiippine marines would probably be expelled within a week; or die fighting.

Let us analyze the situation IF America was not our ally.

The situation would go like this:

1. China invades Kalayaan group
2. Philippine forces defend--but have no anti-air capability
3. The Philippine Air Force, composed of Huey helicopters and old 1950s / 1960s propeller planes would be shot down by Chinese Migs.
4. With the loss of any air fighter, there is nothing to stop China's bombing of Philippine urban centers: eg, Manila, Makati, Quezon, Cebu, Tagbilaran, Davao, Cagayan De Oro, Puerto Princessa.
5. Philippine Army tries to send reinforcement to Kalayaan via support ships.
6. Chinese air units strafe and sink Philippine surface ships and support ships including army units since there is no air force
7. Manila will sue for Peace.



That, is a national catastrophe that I pray will never happen.

that quick!

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Re: RP taking China ship in Spratlys 'seriously'
« Reply #29 on: March 21, 2009, 10:24:51 AM »
To even be realistic, Glacier, if the Chinese did invade the Kalayaan group, the batallion or so of PHiippine marines would probably be expelled within a week; or die fighting.

Let us analyze the situation IF America was not our ally.

The situation would go like this:

1. China invades Kalayaan group
2. Philippine forces defend--but have no anti-air capability
3. The Philippine Air Force, composed of Huey helicopters and old 1950s / 1960s propeller planes would be shot down by Chinese Migs.
4. With the loss of any air fighter, there is nothing to stop China's bombing of Philippine urban centers: eg, Manila, Makati, Quezon, Cebu, Tagbilaran, Davao, Cagayan De Oro, Puerto Princessa.
5. Philippine Army tries to send reinforcement to Kalayaan via support ships.
6. Chinese air units strafe and sink Philippine surface ships and support ships including army units since there is no air force
7. Manila will sue for Peace.



That, is a national catastrophe that I pray will never happen.




if this will happen.  enter dagohoy ug uban pa. :(

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Lorenzo

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Re: RP taking China ship in Spratlys 'seriously'
« Reply #30 on: March 21, 2009, 08:55:50 PM »
we can only afford Bronchos (Italian) and some choppers...we depend so much on "barang" and "wak-waks" to fight any foreign invaders, if they want to risk their lives hehehehe

Due to the fact that the Republic is composed of islands and no continuity; and due to the heavy dependence on naval transport for day-to-day operation, this is translated into a weakness in terms of military affairs. In the game of war.

As an archipelagic nation, the Philippines' top military priority should be naval prowess and power. To properly and definitely enforce the nation's territorial claims and repudiate foreign claims/threats, it should have an able surface fleet. (at least to include 1-2 destroyers, 5-10 corvettes, 2-3 frigates, and a contingent of missile/gun patrol boats).

The first line of defense the Republic has is its navy, segundum to that is its air force (and at the moment; it is a shell of its former self). Tertiary to that is the infantry.

Military modernization should be one of the top priorities for the Philippines. But due to Manila's dependence on America's Military Alliance, has forgone the need to modernize efficiently.

Quite frankly, there is no excuse why a nation of some 90 million cannot afford 10-20 F-16s and purchasing new frigates for the surface fleet.



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ayessa

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Re: RP taking China ship in Spratlys 'seriously'
« Reply #31 on: March 22, 2009, 01:59:42 AM »

ARTICLE l
NATIONAL TERRITORY
(1987 Philippine Constitution)

The national territory comprises the Philippine archipelago, with all the islands and waters embraced therein, and all other territories over which the Philippines has sovereignty or jurisdiction, consisting of its terrestrial, fluvial and aerial domains, including its territorial sea, the seabed, the subsoil, the insular shelves, and other submarine areas. The waters around between, the connecting the islands of the archipelago, regardless of their breadth and dimensions, from part of the internal waters of the Philippines.

Our rights and claims are based on law. Under the archipelagic doctrine under the U.N. Convention on the Law of  the Sea, an archipelago is one unit determined by connecting the outermost islands and islets with an imaginary straight line; all bodies of land and waters inside the baseline form the entire archipelago.

             The purpose of the archipelagic doctrine (i’m using Justice V.V. Mendoza’s notes; these are not mine) is to protect the territorial integrity of the archipelago. Without it, (according to Justice V.V.): there would be “pockets of high seas” between some of our islands and islets, as for instance between Bohol and Siquijor, thus foreign vessels  would be able to pass through these “pockets of high seas” and we would have no jurisdiction over them.  And so, in order to protect the land,  the group of islands  and the waters between them and all islets and shoal and rocks within the baseline are all considered one unit under the archipelagic doctrine under  UNCLOS.

Our rights are based not only on international law but also on treaties: (still using Justice V.V. Mendoza’s notes; these are not mine): The Treaty of Paris defining the metes and bounds of the archipelago; the Treaty of  Washington between the U.S. and Spain in the 1900’s; ceding Cagayan, Sibuto, and Sulu; the Treaty between U.S. and Great Britain, 1930, ceding Turtle Island and Mangsi Island.

                It is true that through the years, some of the islets that are part of the disputed territories, or some of the islets that fall inside the baseline,  have been occupied  by China and Vietnam.  The Chief Executive, the Commander-in-Chief, speaking through her lieutenants and assistants, wants Congress to exclude those  islets by drawing the baseline in such manner that those islets fall outside our baseline, thus  Malacañang ordered its congressmen to bring back the House bill on baselines, already approved on second reading and up for approval on third reading, brought back to the committee level again. 

      It is true that we are a small country with a small military capability compared to China.   

           

        But we have never given up those claims, we have never recognized their occupation  as evidence of ownership; international law does not recognize invasion or occupation as a source of right; we have not authorized our “leaders” to sell or cede any part of our claimed territories; those “leaders” are under question and scrutiny now for allegedly accepting bribes and commissions in hundreds of millions of dollars from Chinese corporate officials; we are not about  to surrender any part of our land; the dispute over those territories should be resolved in the U.N. and in the meantime the  Philippine legislature  should be doing its job of  defending our rigts, and those “leaders”, whether they are in Congress, the Supreme Court  or in Malacañang  selling our territories would be disowned, disavowed and driven away from our land. Maybe together with their foreign  patrons. We have a history of doing that. 

source:Marichu Lambino, word press

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