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perezkelly

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confused about Visayan tenses!
« on: August 14, 2012, 07:29:45 AM »
Maayong buntag sa tanan,
I am trying to learn Visayan and I have a question about negation of past and future events.
Can somebody help me understand the meaning and time-frame of these sentences?
Wala siya niadto.
Wala siya muadto.
Dili siya niadto.
Dili siya muadto.

I thought that wala negates a past action but I have come across examples where wala negates verbs beginning with mu-.
I'm confused!

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islander

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Re: confused about Visayan tenses!
« Reply #1 on: August 14, 2012, 12:01:50 PM »
maayong buntag pod, pk!

i know some here who can explain this better, but they haven't appeared as of now (webmaster mol, hubag, bugsay, and others).  meantime, bear with me. ;D

you understand at this point that cebuano-visayan sentence construction is different from english in that the subject-verb-object (S-V-O) format is hardly used because it would sound awkward.  rather, what is used is the verb-subject-object (V-S-O) format.  thus: 

English:                I am going to the mall. (S-V-O format)
Cebuano:             Moadto ko sa mall. (V-S-O format)
'Wrong' Cebuano: Ako moadto sa mall. (S-V-O format); n.b., may be used in poetry but not in daily conversations.

please note too that i use the term "cebuano-visayan" to particularize the specific language that you show in your post.  this is so because there are many visayan languages (i use the word 'language' here in keeping with the word's definition, as against 'dialect'), the major ones of which are ilonggo, hiligaynon, waray, etc.---languages that make it difficult for visayans to communicate with each other!

and now to your sentences (in parentheses--literal translation):

Wala siya niadto. (Was not he/she there then.) - She/He was not there then OR She/He was not there at that time.  Sometimes, this is used simply to mean "She/He did not go" and is understood as such, in context.

Wala siya muadto. (Did not she/he go.) - She/He did not go.

Dili siya niadto. (Is not she/he then.) - She/He is/does not then; She/He is/does not before.  Again, this is used and understood, in context.  She likes durian?  Now, yes.  Dili siya niadto.  (She did not, before.)
 
Dili siya muadto. (Is not she/he going.) - She/He is not going.

Quote
I thought that wala negates a past action but I have come across examples where wala negates verbs beginning with mu-.

wala, like dili, negates past, present and future actions actually.

Quote
I'm confused!

my personal experience (this "trying hard" soul wants to learn as many languages as she can, and had failed) is that i fail miserably when i try to learn another language through the academic (i.e., grammatical) approach.  immersion is still the best.  exposure to the language, listening to radio broadcasts and tapes, communicating with local speakers, learning 5 to 10 new words a day-- they do the trick.  grammar follows in the natural course of things.  i'm a believer that language existed long before grammarians were born. 

i hope i did not muddle your confusion some more.  hinaot nga wa nako makutaw ug samot ang imong kalibog. ;D

i can hardly wait for the webmaster, hubag and bugsay to share their knowledge on this.  they are the cebuano-visayan gurus as far as i can make out.
Republic Act 8485 (Animal Welfare Act of 1998, Philippines), as amended and strengthened by House  Bill 6893 of 2013--- violation means a maximum of P250,000 fine with a corresponding three-year jail term and a minimum of P30,000 fine and six months imprisonment

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Re: confused about Visayan tenses!
« Reply #2 on: August 14, 2012, 12:18:27 PM »
He he, Ininsik man ning imong grammar, Ms. Isle.  ;D

...than to speak out and remove all doubt." - Abraham Lincoln

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Re: confused about Visayan tenses!
« Reply #3 on: August 14, 2012, 12:50:29 PM »

Hi, Mr. Perezkelly. With all due respect to Ms. Islander's treatise, I wish to offer an easier answer.

Simply put:

Wala siya niadto. --Ungrammatical.
Wala siya muadto. --Grammatical.
Dili siya niadto. --Ungrammatical.
Dili siya muadto. --Grammatical.

Grammatical rule: When formulating a negative sentence in the past, the future prefix (mu-) is used instead of the past prefix (ni-). Even more correctly, the correct past prefix is not "ni-" but "mi-". Even most correctly: "mo-" instead of "mu-".

 ;D

Grammatical all:

Miadto siya. He went.
Wala siya muadto. He did not go.
Muadto siya. He will go.
Dili siya muadto. He will not go.

P.S. There are several proposed Cebuano "grammars". Matira ang matibay. (Do you understand this "Tagalism" [or should it be "Tagalogism"], Sir?)

P.P.S. I'm no grammar Nazi or spelling Fascist, though. After all, language was made for man, and not man for language.

 8)






Lorenzo

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Re: confused about Visayan tenses!
« Reply #4 on: August 14, 2012, 12:54:58 PM »
Interesting. I learned something new today. :)

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Re: confused about Visayan tenses!
« Reply #5 on: August 14, 2012, 12:57:55 PM »

ayaw pagsalig abi apo ka ni dagohoy ug igsoon kag tarsier. ;D

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Re: confused about Visayan tenses!
« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2012, 01:04:31 PM »

Correction! Si Bugsay apo ni Dagohoy, ako apo ni Tamblot. Hinuon, igsoon ming duha sa tarsier... ;D

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Re: confused about Visayan tenses!
« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2012, 02:27:01 PM »
"Wala siya niadto." This could also be understood as short for "Wala siya kaniadto." or "Wala siya kaniadtong panahona." - - He was not there (at that time or when it happened).  Using the prefix "ni/nag", to denote past tense, instead of "mi/mag", is not a strict rule in Binisayang Sinugboanon. Example: "Nagbaktas" - - hiked/hikes (past and present); "Magbaktas" - - to hike (future)

"Wala siya muadto." - - He did not go.

"Dili siya niadto." - - He did not prefer it. He did not choose it. He did not like it.

"Dili siya muadto." - - He won't go.



Dili siya muadto.

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Re: confused about Visayan tenses!
« Reply #8 on: August 14, 2012, 03:12:45 PM »
samot.  morag puro sakto.  daghan gyod tuod ang cebuano-visayan grammarians, hehe. ;D

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Re: confused about Visayan tenses!
« Reply #9 on: August 20, 2012, 04:04:05 PM »
Pangutana mo ni Edgar Godin, ang editor sa Bisaya magasen kay nagsubay sila sa hustong Bisayang Sinugbuanon. Lahi baja pod ang Bisajang Bol-anon.
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Re: confused about Visayan tenses!
« Reply #10 on: August 20, 2012, 04:19:44 PM »
miadto - past tense
muadto - future tense

unsa man ang present tense ana?
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Re: confused about Visayan tenses!
« Reply #11 on: August 20, 2012, 09:30:47 PM »

Interesting question. Looks like our language does not provide for one. "I will go" and "I am going" apparently both translate as "Moadto ko". It is safe to say that "Moadto ko" is the equivalent (somehow) of the present tense. But we have no equivalent for the simple present tense which, come to think of it, does not make sense. Going, after all, presupposes movement, and thus "I go" can mean either in a progressive sense or as intention. "I go where the wind blows" translates as "Moadto ko..."

Interestingly, the lack of distinction between present and present progressive tenses in our language has led to difficulties in our acquisition of English language skills. English language pupils can still be heard saying, "I am eating rice everyday." 

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Re: confused about Visayan tenses!
« Reply #12 on: August 22, 2012, 12:59:11 PM »
Ang present tense siguro ana is "nagpadulong pa" ... he he he, Joke. The problem siguro lies in the way we study our language, kay most likely we base it on basic English grammar patterns.  Parehas ra na sa Tinagalog nga, according sa libro, ang "tuwid na ayos" (as opposed to "kabalikang ayos") is "Siya ay maganda." Pero sa tinood, ang "tuwid na ayos" is dapat "Maganda siya"  kay mao man gyud nay isulti sa tawo. (Gwapa lagi siya. vs Siya kay gwapa lagi.)


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Re: confused about Visayan tenses!
« Reply #13 on: August 22, 2012, 12:59:49 PM »
Miadto ... nagpadulong ... miabot ...

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Re: confused about Visayan tenses!
« Reply #14 on: August 22, 2012, 01:25:45 PM »
it looks like we now have three different words; equivalents or synonyms or nuances (though doubtless these words carry their own tenses) that may veer away from the subject of tenses of specific words.

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« Reply #15 on: August 22, 2012, 10:34:06 PM »
I don't see any problem at all in the way I study our language. The observation that it lacks corresponding structures or patterns found in other languages is not meant to diminish it, but rather to point out its peculiarity, or at least an aspect of it.  In fact, that our language apparently does not distinguish between the English notions of simple present and present progressive is to me a lesser linguistic "deficiency" than the lack of distinction in English in a usage of the pronoun "we": whether it includes ("kita") or excludes ("kami") the one being addressed.

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Re: confused about Visayan tenses!
« Reply #16 on: September 10, 2012, 11:46:57 PM »

miadto -   past tense  (miabot na gid siya adtong panahona hang karongs sang omaabot)
muadto - future tense (indi na gid siya magaabot kag ala pa gid siya nagpaanak hang
                                           panahona ara pa gid siya sang tomoy sang tatay niya)


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Re: confused about Visayan tenses!
« Reply #17 on: September 11, 2012, 07:10:10 AM »
miabot - past tense  (miabot na gid hang tatay ni Bolbs sang pungkay sang kalipay adtong panahona dason lumangoy hang proto-Bolbs sang piut nga atabay)

magaabot - future tense (indi na gid magaabot hang panahon nga siya na upod hang tatay kay nangahasaling-it lang gid sang bongbong kag padir hang binhi ni Bolbs haw)

;D

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Re: confused about Visayan tenses!
« Reply #18 on: September 11, 2012, 07:11:44 PM »

hang binhi may ara gid kinauhi indi gid angayng pagapakyon, mag kakomit gid ka sang killer kong pagapakyong gid hao, dao semilya mo gid pagaogomong mo na lang sang nene indi lang pagapakyong bahara na gid mahimo kang pertilaysir skam.

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Re: confused about Visayan tenses!
« Reply #19 on: September 11, 2012, 07:17:57 PM »

Ah, gapaogomogom ka lang gid sang nene sang imon binghi? Haglok galing ka sang AIDS pro. An-o gid man, pro o anti ka sang RH bill?



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