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may God bless us all my friend!

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This topic is very much interesting, we might have some brothers and sisters from different sector of religions who were viewing this thread, For me as a Roman Catholic it is our tradition that we prayed infront of the image of our saviour, even inside in our church you can find it there but it does not mean that we worshipped the image, instead we sent directly our prayers to the almighty God, Ms Belskie might have a point to say that it's better to pray infront of a statue than praying infront of a blank wall!


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haha ning kurog akong bolang kristal pagkadungog nako sa akong ngalan! Brown, i was born a Catholic, raised by my Catholic parents but  when i was growing i felt that Catholicism was not my heart was longing to follow so i searched the right church for me. In deed i found several and im sticking to it.

What i learned from what i believed that God is everywhere and HE is in You when embraced HIM. As to the image, thus I dont worshiped him through any kinds of images.

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nothing can strengthen a believer except the Word of God (metabolized doctrine)which are circulating in the stream of consciousness in his soul.

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Brownman,

Maayong Gabii to you (its night time over here for us)!

God Bless you, and all of us.

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Yes the picture of yuor father is really your father, but the picture of Jesus was not even Jesus. For Heaven's sake who have ever seen Jesus?

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Amen!


For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
-Isaiah 55:9

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sa marbo kita ko 3 ka jesus

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Folks,
    As logical as you imply, there are many ways of killing a cat. Point being! you are all arguing about  translation differences.
    God will not judge us by our imperfection, but by faith in Jesus, therefore, get rid of that statue, read the bible yourself and prrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrraaaaaaaaaaaayyy to find your conviction..and the presence of the holy spirit in your heart. God is spirit, and is worship in spirit...oh did i hang myself?
   This would be the same issue of - Should priest marry or not? find GOd thru prayers and mediation of His word" the bible", then all of us will find peace and fulfillment in our faith.
 

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To you my brothers and sisters,
Catholics, Protestants, Orthodox etc,


Do not harken to the words of people. Do not let the words of people reduce your own faith and dimmer your path toward Christ Jesus.

Pray and continue to PRAY in the spirit and in the manner of which PROVIDENCE has chosen for you. And called you.

Mind not the words of men. As man does not judge your eternal soul in the end. It is in the NAME OF ALMIGHTY GOD who calls us to His Son, Christ Jesus.

Peace be with all of you.


In the Name of Jesus Christ, Our Lord.

Trust your own faith! As the Holy Spirit dwells within ALL of Us.





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Amen, Brother.

Sacred Scripture in lieu with Sacred Tradition, gives one a better understanding.

Kita tanan mga tawo naa daghang sala. Walay yamo tawo diri sa yuta nang wa yamo ug sala. Tanan, kita tanan.

But all, despite our imperfections, faults and sins, are offeredthe promises of Christ. It depends on the individual to accept His grace into our own life.

Amen! I say to you, Amen!

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Mao jud...

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Ms. Da Binsi,

You are correct! No person has ever seen Jesus, even among the people believed to be the first Christians, they mentioned Christ in their writings but not Jesus. The people I am refering to were the Essenes. These are also the people mentioned by Josephus in his historical records as the people who wanted to separate away from Judaism. By the way, Josephus was a Jewish historian whose writings date back to the time of Jesus in the bible.

The Essenes were also the people who were waiting for the coming of Christ and the end of the world. In modern times they can be called as a doomsday cult.

The worship of statues were already practiced by the first Christians. The Greeks were amazed by the way the Jews practiced their religion because they worshipped only one God and without idols in their temple. During those times all other religions worshipped idols except Judaism. The Jews used to call them idolaters. In Greek mythology they worshipped their gods and godesses symbolized by idols and statues. When the Greeks started preaching Christianity they portrayed the statue of the apostles in Greek clothing and not in Jewish clothing.

When Constantine the Great the emperor of Rome was converted to Christianity he incorporated all religions into  the Roman Empire and the more the worship of idols and paganism was strengthened. The religion of Rome which is Mithraism was incorporated with Catholicism, which is why there are Catholic religious practices today that originated from pagan Rome. Modern teaching of the church today prohibits in the worship of idols. Even if the essence is not to worship idols the majority of the catholic faithful who are naive and ignorant of the teaching of the Church still cannot get rid of old habits of worshipping statues and idols.

WN

         

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Good Morning to Everyone, May the Love of Christ continue to flourish in our hearts,


Dear Ray,

There is something wrong in your rhetoric, which is rather condemning of many people and the manner of spiritual worship. It is an unhealthy view, Ray, to be hold such condemnatory view point. Especially when that particular theology has been the very basis and footstool of biblical discourse throughout the past millennium.

I recommend you, Ray, to read Proverbs 2: The Blessing of Wisdom . A healthy understanding of history and religious discourse increases one's understanding and the grace of understanding is a gift of the Holy Spirit, my dear friend.

As did not our Savior, Christ Jesus go unto the Temple and discuss with the priests and learned men on religious theology?

Sacred Scripture declares:

When Joseph and Mary had done everything required by the Law of the Lord, they returned to Galilee to their own town of Nazareth. And the child grew and became strong; he was filled with wisdom, and the grace of God was upon him.Every year his parents went to Jerusalem for the Feast of the Passover. When he was twelve years old, they went up to the Feast, according to the custom. After the Feast was over, while his parents were returning home, the boy Jesus stayed behind in Jerusalem, but they were unaware of it. Thinking he was in their company, they traveled on for a day. Then they began looking for him among their relatives and friends. When they did not find him, they went back to Jerusalem to look for him. After three days they found him in the temple courts, sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions. Everyone who heard him was amazed at his understanding and his answers. When his parents saw him, they were astonished. His mother said to him, "Son, why have you treated us like this? Your father and I have been anxiously searching for you."
"Why were you searching for me?" he asked. "Didn't you know I had to be in my Father's house?" But they did not understand what he was saying to them. Then he went down to Nazareth with them and was obedient to them. But his mother treasured all these things in her heart. And Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men.

--Luke 2:39-52




Ray,

Additionally, no where does the Lord Jesus Christ condemns the worship of His name and the glories of His Father. In actuality, the Lord Jesus Christ, when confronted about the news of people driving demons away from people in HIS Name, the Lord Jesus Christ accepted it and glorified them and their acts.

Sacred Scripture declares:

Then he sat down, called the Twelve, and said to them, "If anyone wishes to be first, he shall be the last of all and the servant of all." Taking a child he placed it in their midst, and putting his arms around it he said to them, " Whoever receives one child such as this in my name, receives me; and whoever receives me, receives not me but the one who sent me."
John said to him, "Teacher, we saw someone driving out demons in your name, and we tried to prevent him because he does not follow us." Jesus replied, "Do not prevent him. There is no one who performs a mighty deed in my name who can at the same time speak ill of me.

For whoever is not against us is for us.

--Mark 9: 36-40



Christ Jesus, God Blessed Forever, personally rectifies the works of those who glorify HIS name and call upon HIS name. Had the Lord Jesus Christ not, then he would have made it known by rebuking those who did works in His name. Am I right? The Lord accepted it. And reiterated the powerful and loving phrase of "For whoever is not against us is for us."

The teachings and participation of Catholics, Orthodox, Anglicans, Protestants in church activity have the ultimate goal in glorifying the Lord and His Father in Heaven.

And ultimately, brother Ray, you need to keep your mind on that main picture.


Amen I say to you and all of you my beloved brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus!

---
Judge not, that ye be not judged.

For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
--Matthew 7: 1-3



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That is why, Way Nada, it is supplemental for us to learn and read the bible in the original Hebrew, Greek, Latin and understand the transliteration of each. Ultimately, though, the main theme should not be lost in the processes of time and historical discourse that has happened throughout the past 2 millenias.

Sacred Scripture, either it be in the original Hebrew, Greek and Latin have the same theme and conceptus as in the English transliteration (as well as other lingual versions). Let us not loose the sight of that, shall we?

As for the matter concerning Emperor Constantine I of the Roman Empire, his conversion into Christianity and reasons for it are far more complex than what you provided. I've taken classes (in undergraduate college) on Roman History, as well as Christian History and I submit that it is one of a journey.

Emperor Constantine (Flavius Valerius Aurelius Constantinus) was influenced to Christianity even before his rise to the thrown of Emperorship. Rather, Constantine's own mother, Helena, was a christian convert, one of the few who practiced christianity in the catacombs of Rome for fear of being caught. Which was, then, punishable by death in the gladiatorial games. Christianity was already introduced to Constantine and one that played a role in his life since it eventually lead to his conversion. His own mother, Helena, made a special pilgrimage to the Holy Land to visit the site of Jesus' crucifixion.

Constantine's conversion to Christianity occured in the Battle of Milvian Bridge, where it is said that before the battle, Constantine had a dream of his victory against the Emperor Maxentius the Great. Both of whom were vying for the Imperial Throne. When both armies were rallied forth to begin the battle, Constantine was said to have been riding his horse and looked to the sky and saw Cross where the sun was at. And with it were the words in Latin "In Hoc Signo Vinces" which is translated to "By this, Conquer!"

In his glorious epiphany, Constantine ordered his legions to adorn their shields with the sign of the Chi-Ro, which, in Greek, means 'CHRIST'. {ΧΡΙΣΤΟΣ}

Roman legions went to war with their standards, and for centuries it was always the Roman Eagle that was adorned in battle. Many Roman generals and emperors such as Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius, Hadrian, Diocletian etc went to war with the Roman Eagle as standard. Since the dawn of the Roman Republic, the Roman Eagle was fashioned to battle from the Punic Wars, the Greco Wars, the Thracian Wars, Parthian Wars, Gaulic Wars, Visigothian Wars, Slavic Wars etc.

However, Constantine not only did he order his legions to adorn the Chi-Ro on their shields, which is Greek for 'CHRIST', as I said before. He also ordered the removal of the Roman Eagle on their standard and had it replaced with the Christian Cross.

Suffice to say, Constantine's victory against Emperor Maxentius, who was a Pagan, is symbolism of Providence's own blessing. The WILL of Providence.

It is also important to know that the office of the Roman Emperor, as indicated by Augustus's Precepts some 3 centuries before the time of Constantine, made it mandatory to offer Divine praises to the Emperor and the Office of the Emperor. The cult of the Emperor, one can dare say. The coronation of an emperor and his rise to the seat of power included a speech to the Senatorium as well as required the newly-crowned emperor to offer sacrifices to the Pantheon of Deities. After the sacrifices were made, then could the newly-crowned emperor take the seat in the Imperial Palace.


Constantine was different compared to his predecessors. How was he different?

Following the Battle of Milvian Bridge, Constantine ignored the altars to the Roman gods prepared on the Capitoline to receive sacrifices appropriate for the celebration of his victorious entry into Rome, and the new emperor instead went straight to the imperial palace without performing any sacrifice. Constantine, unlike his predecessors, was rather insular and introverted and did not like it when Divine Praises were given to him by Senators, Generals, Plebeians, Priests etc. Normally, Roman Emperors of the past would have prided themselves in being referred to as Gods as well as many of them demanded the citizenry to offer sacrifice to their own divinity.

Constantine was different in that he rejected Divine praises on his persona. Additionally, upon taking the throne of Rome, his refusal and rejection of offering sacrifices to the Roman gods angered and alienated him amongst the members of the Senatorium and from many pagans in the city.

Constantine, upon his first year term as Emperor, passed the Edict of Milan. Which legalized the practice of christianity and ordered the return of all confiscated christian buildings, churches, relics and writings. All christians who were imprisoned because of their religion were released by the order of the Emperor himself.

Constantine's action made him target of multiple assassination attempts, and by the Grace of God, survived them.

Constantine's own legal reforms reflected his own Christian zealotry. Constantine's laws enforced and reflected his Christian reforms. Crucifixion was abolished for reasons of Christian piety, but was replaced with hanging, to show there was Roman law and justice. Sunday was declared the official day of rest, on which markets were banned and public offices were closed. Constantine also ordered the creation and proliferation of bibles throughout the Empire!

One can even dare say that he was an early Christian evangelist!





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(CONTINUED)

Constantine was over 40 when he finally declared himself a Christian, publically, to the dismay of his colleagues in the Senate and the Military (The majority of Romans were still PAGAN).

Writing to Christians, Constantine made clear that he owed his successes to the protection of that High God alone.

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Way Nada,

Historians and Theologians who have poured their resources in the analysis of the historiography of biblical history as well as contextual history agree that Constantine I, who you question gregariously, as being a direct contributing factor of the proliferation of the major Christian ideology that most of us have.

Christians believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, who was sent to Earth from Heaven, was born of the Virgin Mary and became Man. He taught and preached his ministry until he was arrested by the Jews and condmned by the Romans, by request of the Jews and was crucified, was buried and rose on the third day. We, being Christians, believe that there was a resurrection of the Lord. Both in terms of the physical and spiritual.

This christian ideology that we have, that all christian denominations ranging from two original churches: The Roman Catholic Church or the Christian Orthodox Church, to major protestant denominations such as Methodism, Lutheranism, Baptism, Presbyterianism so on and so forth.

It is inarguable and manifest. It was Emperor Constantine I of Rome who called the First Council of Nicea, which was the first Ecumenical council of the (Roman Catholic) Christian Church, and most significantly resulted in the first uniform Christian doctrine, called the Nicene Creed.

 The Nicene Creed being:

"We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
and was made man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen. "



With the creation of the creed, a precedent was established for subsequent general (ecumenical) councils of Bishops' (Synods) to create statements of belief and canons of doctrinal orthodoxy— the intent being to define unity of beliefs for the whole of Christendom.

Before the First Nicean Council, there were different views on the nature of Jesus Christ in relation to The Father. In particular, whether Jesus was of the same substance as God the Father or merely of similar substance. The Council of Nicea also focused on the importance of the RESURRECTION of Christ Jesus.

To which, that very ideology, lives and beats its truth to many christian churches to this day.

Not many know that the Nicean Council was that of a ROMAN CATHOLIC ORIGIN, which was organized and called upon by the ROMAN EMPEROR CONSTANTINUS I. In measure, did, by right of history and christian message spreading to the 4 corners of the earth, was successful in bringing the message of Jesus Christ to nations and peoples who did not know of the grace and salvation that was offered for them, beforehand.

It is inarguably evident, Way Nada, that Constantine has played a magnanimous role in the proliferation of Christian ideology, to which we all share.

I submit to the fact that the rise of Constantine I correlated to the rise of Christianity AND Christendom itself and the beginning of the evangelization of the World. I submit to the fact that Constantine, by the Grace of Almighty Providence, was able to make such accomplishments in His Name. And I submit to the fact that The Lord God of Heaven and the Holy Spirit was alive and strong in the man that was Constantine I of Rome.


Amen!


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The Ten Commandments: The Second Commandment - Do not worship idols
Introduction
Do you think you really know the 10 Commandments? How about the 2nd one which says we are not to have any "graven" or "carved" images? What does that mean? Is it OK to own a statue of any kind? Some religions misunderstand the second commandment; they combine the second commandment with the first. (Read the 1st commandment in Exodus 20:3 or Deuteronomy 5:7. What does it actually say?) The first commandment has to do with WHOM we worship, while the second commandment has to do with HOW we worship the true and only God. In this study guide, the meaning of the second commandment will be explored.

Commandment stated
EXODUS 20:4-6 "You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

Some people use pictures, images, or objects to REPRESENT God in their worship. How do we know that such use of art is sin?

DEUTERONOMY 4:15-16 " Take careful heed to yourselves, for you saw no form when the LORD spoke to you at Horeb out of the midst of the fire, lest you act corruptly and make for yourselves a carved image in the form of any figure…."

What was one important point that God told Moses to record about their conversation on Mt. Sinai (Horeb)?
COMMENT: Moses spoke with God and God spoke with Moses but Moses did not see God directly. Therefore we can have no detailed idea of the exact form and shape of God other than Gen 1:26. It would be presumptuous of us to think that we could design or even think up anything representational of God.

1. Why would God not approve of using an object as an aid in worshipping Him?

2. How can images, pictures, or symbols such as crucifixes interfere with proper worship?

3. Is it possible to make an image of God that is true to reality? Why or why not?

4. What about pictures or images of Jesus? Does this commandment prohibit depictions of Jesus? Why do you think so?

5. In Exodus 20:5, what does the word "jealous" mean?

6. How would you react if someone misrepresented you? What consequences occur when someone is not represented correctly?

COMMENT: For God to allow anything to represent Him, which no image or picture can, God would have to accept false witness. God jealously protects His character and Being. Read Isaiah 42:8.

7. Why should we be glad that God is jealous for His people? What is the difference between being jealous OF someone and being jealous FOR someone?

8. What does the expression "visiting the iniquity of the fathers" mean?

9. How does it get passed from generation to generation?

10. How does God distinguish between those who hate Him and those who love Him?

11. To whom does God show mercy?

Christ's words
JOHN 4:23-24 "But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."

1. How are we to worship God?

2. How can we conceive of God without images?

Some Scriptures to Consider
Read Judges 17. Note how Micah chose to worship God (verses 3,12). Do you think Micah was close to God? Why or why not?

I SAMUEL 4:2-8,10 Then the Philistines put themselves in battle array against Israel. And when they joined battle, Israel was defeated by the Philistines…. And when the people had come into the camp, the elders of Israel said, "Why has the LORD defeated us today before the Philistines? Let us bring the ark of the covenant of the LORD from Shiloh to us, that when it comes among us it may save us from the hand of our enemies." So the people sent to Shiloh, that they might bring from there the ark of the covenant of the LORD of hosts, who dwells between the cherubim…. And when the ark of the covenant of the LORD came into the camp, all Israel shouted so loudly that the earth shook. Now when the Philistines heard the noise of the shout, they said, "What does the sound of this great shout in the camp of the Hebrews mean?" Then they understood that the ark of the LORD had come into the camp. So the Philistines were afraid, for they said, "God has come into the camp!" And they said, "Woe to us! … Who will deliver us from the hand of these mighty gods? These are the gods who struck the Egyptians with all the plagues in the wilderness. (10) So the Philistines fought, and Israel was defeated….. There was a very great slaughter, and there fell of Israel thirty thousand foot soldiers.

1. Why did Israel believe the Ark of the Covenant would protect them?

COMMENT: Often people venerate an object that represents God rather than fearing and obeying God Himself. Israel trusted God would defeat their enemies because the Ark which represented God was in their presence. In truth, however, they were not close to God.

NUMBERS 21:8-9 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and it shall be that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, shall live." So Moses made a bronze serpent, and put it on a pole; and so it was, if a serpent had bitten anyone, when he looked at the bronze serpent, he lived.

Moses made an image of a snake. Why did this not violate the second commandment?
Does the second commandment forbid all works of art that represent earthly or heavenly things? How can one prove it does or doesn't? (HINT: read HEBREWS 8:1-5; 9:23-24).

Summary
1. What is the difference between the first and second commandments?

2. Name some ways in which the second commandment is broken.

3. Explain how worshipping with images or pictures prevents worshipping in spirit and truth.

4. What changes would occur in the world if everyone obeyed the second commandment?


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Very well said Daray!  good job sir1

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First of all, I would like to commend all those in this inter-faith dialogue. And I think this discussion has provided the communication basis for understanding and enlightening of some aspects of the Roman Catholic Church, the Original Christian Faith, from which All other Christian denominations sprang forth.

So let me correct some misinterpretations some of you have concerning the Holy Roman Catholic Church.


Protestant apologists claim that the Catholic Church dropped the Second Commandment in order to allow its common practice of worshiping images, alleging that the Catholic Church condones the worship of images. To the Catholic this makes no sense. No good Catholic worships images. The reason that images are explicitly forbidden in Deuteronomy is because some of the ancient Jews really worshiped them, the images themselves, as gods. No Catholic worships statues or any kind of images. So to command that no false gods be worshiped in one commandment and then to command that images are not to be made in another commandment is very redundant. The single commandment not to worship false gods obviously covers the worshiping of images. And God does not forbid the making of graven images; see below.


Dividing Deuteronomy 21 into two commandments makes sense because lust and greed (avarice) are two different things; this division is more logical than lumping them together into one commandment. This lumping together also comes very close to categorizing women as property, which they are not. The Protestant reformers adopted their version of the Ten Commandments when they adopted the Jewish Bible as a replacement for the Catholic Bible. The Jewish Ten Commandments is similar to the Protestant because the Jews retained their traditional version which goes back to the time when image worship was a big problem. [The next article will address the difference between the Protestant and the Catholic Bibles]. When the early Church numbered the Ten Commandments, image worship was not a problem among the early Christians and a commandment to forbid their creation was deemed unnecessary.


Images and statues, to a Catholic, are no different than photographs of loved ones who have passed away. They simply serve to remind us of them and to help us focus on their memory and hence they are a way of venerating loved ones, of giving reverence. This is not worshiping. To a Catholic, only God is worthy of worship and adoration. [There are different levels of worship: latria versus dulia and hyperdulia; latria being the highest form, that reserved for God alone, which is what is being talked about here. The expression, "He worships the very ground she walks on" is an example of dulia, i.e., worship at its lowest level; English is handicapped by having only one word, "worship," while Latin has more words for "worship"]. To look at some Catholics before some images, you might think they are worshiping. Perhaps there are some misguided Catholics who do attribute divine power to a saint represented in an image or statue. But this is wrong and these Catholics are in error. The teaching of the Church is always against the worship of false gods and attributing divine power to any saint would be false worship. The only "power" a saint possesses is that of intercession wherein a saint can pray for us, just as we can ask anyone to pray for us. For to a Catholic, the saints are not dead, but alive in heaven and, as part of our family, they can hear our prayers and pray for us just as any loved one can pray for us.


There are numerous places in the Old Testament where God commands the making of graven images ("graven" simply means "sculpted"): Exodus 25:18-21 (angels), Numbers 21:8-9 (a bronze serpent), 1 Kings 6:23-28 describes statues of angels in the temple, as does Ezechiel 41:17-25. So God does not forbid the making of graven images, but only the worship (latria) of them. Catholics do not even give dulia to graven images.



Through Christ Our Lord,

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