Author Topic: Hans Kung: Why Am I Staying in the Church?  (Read 5658 times)

islander

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Re: Hans Kung: Why Am I Staying in the Church?
« Reply #40 on: February 27, 2013, 12:05:03 PM »
If my will is to be done here (Bayoulandia of the Creoles) is where I would love to do my exit to kinabuhing dayon (it has been willed but Thy will be done) 8)

salamat nga dili in your own good time but in HIS.  so many songs still need to be sung...

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Re: Hans Kung: Why Am I Staying in the Church?
« Reply #41 on: February 27, 2013, 12:06:27 PM »
In 100 years we will know. That's equivalent to 1 year for the Catholic Church. For arguing a Cardinal is as good as "condenado." It doesn't matter how good you are or sincere or how many STDs you have under your belt. Condenado is condenado! What direction do you go but find the exit... which he did. Another sad story for a local church.

:(

hahay, authority is authority gyod diay, bisan asa.  growing up, condemned ko nga ako ray mosukol sa among papa.  (sa amo pa nga hasta permanent seating arrangement sa dining table naa poy rank... the younger you are in the family, the farther is your seat from the parents.)  kay ako ra lagiy mosukol, ang mga maguwang moduko lang kun kasab-an pero ako nga manghod motibad gyod, aw, daghan kog labod.  but everyone knows nga ako ang apple of the eye ni father dear.  giing-ana pa unta si fr aloy, the cebu archdiocese wouldn't have suffered such a loss...

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chicogon

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Re: Hans Kung: Why Am I Staying in the Church?
« Reply #42 on: February 27, 2013, 12:12:24 PM »
:(

hahay, authority is authority gyod diay, bisan asa.  growing up, condemned ko nga ako ray mosukol sa among papa.  (sa amo pa nga hasta permanent seating arrangement sa dining table naa poy rank... the younger you are in the family, the farther is your seat from the parents.)  kay ako ra lagiy mosukol, ang mga maguwang moduko lang kun kasab-an pero ako nga manghod motibad gyod, aw, daghan kog labod.  but everyone knows nga ako ang apple of the eye ni father dear.  giing-ana pa unta si fr aloy, the cebu archdiocese wouldn't have suffered such a loss...

Ayo gani kay pag exit well-connected na siya with Jesuit's Leuven University where he received a summa in theology. Wew! Considered an authority na god in theology. What a blessing in disguise... instead of being stuck in the system kung na obispo pa! Hehehe

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Lorenzo

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Re: Hans Kung: Why Am I Staying in the Church?
« Reply #43 on: February 27, 2013, 02:11:31 PM »
I love (not respect) how you defend your Holy Father and Catholic Faith! Like I told you before you are a good Catholic defender just like many of them back home roaming around town and spitting fire and brimstone teaching usually where Jose Rizal is immortalized LoL. But that's what you are, a simple Catholic defender, my dear friend. As far as Catholic theologies are concerned I will give my ears to "registered" (hehehe) Catholic theologians who have studied and taught (many other theologians) and put in the time over the years as a respectable authority on the subject matter. As an orthodox practicioner of the faith I closely watch the Church Magisterium has to say on all of these. If they are not sure either, then I probably will leave it that way, too. Or like Ms Isles said... maybe they have taken a more compassionate and more forgiving approach in these modern age. Sa flat pa bitaw ang kalibutan nasayop man sad ang Simbahan. Sa dihay nisinggit nga lingin ang kalibutan, what did they to him? Toinks! Are you still going to invoke Papal Infallibility?!! LoL

Yes, I am actually fond of His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI, I also have read into his life and his role as Prefect of the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith. He was personally chosen by Blessed Pope John Paul II. What is also interesting to know that His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI, while performing his role as Prefect of the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith, regularly corrected theologians who were committing heresy, straying from official teaching. He was renowned as the "enforcer of Truth".

Blessed Pope John Paul II was the one who personally had removed Hans Kung from his role as professor of theology. Incidentally, it was Hans Kung who repudiated Blessed Pope John Paul calling his inferiority in theology.

Now come on. A priest who dares to say he has greater theological clout than the Bishop of Rome, The Head of The Universal Catholic Church, the Successor of Peter.  The Pope of the One, Holy, Roman Catholic Church is the Vicar of Christ. God's Personal Representative.

I actually do believe in Papal Infallibility. Christ our Lord gave the keys of Heaven to Peter, and to all those who sit on the Chair of Peter.

:)

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islander

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Re: Hans Kung: Why Am I Staying in the Church?
« Reply #44 on: February 27, 2013, 02:18:58 PM »
all in the name of intellectual discourse, lorenz, which is good for the church.  but authority and unity are something else, as we all know.  it takes time for a seed of an idea to bear fruit, if ever it does at all, but heresy it is not.  thankfully, we're in an age when burning at the stake is no longer the way to repudiate new ideas about faith and our relationship with our god.

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Lorenzo

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Re: Hans Kung: Why Am I Staying in the Church?
« Reply #45 on: February 27, 2013, 02:30:56 PM »
What theological teachings of Hans Kung, if I may ask, make him a heretic? Is it because he questions the politics and sometimes the actions of a pope in matters of what? Theological teaching? Or adminitrative decisions-making that has nothing to do with faith and morals? Or are we passing a general judgment of heresy because we have nothing else to say? If he, Hans Kung, is a heretic, why didn't the Church - besides asking him to recant (of course they wanted him to recant because he is the respectable Kung of Vatican II fame!) make that official?!! Hmmmm, and the Mother Church is the authority (not any Pedro or Juan or Bran Lucino who may be a firm Catholic defender, LoL). Why? Because the Church knows what it is doing! They just can't fire this man. Again, why? Because he is a redpectable in this field and even though he is some kind of enemical to the Church today, he is a seeker of the truth (a job of a scholarly theologian... not a doctor or yanong priest or just anybody). So, before we judge him... let the Church make the judgment first. After all, you kept insisting the Church is the keeper of the key Christ gave to Peter. Otherwise, you are the ones who sound heretical to me, bwahahaha. Lupig pa man ninyo ang Simbahan. Dako kaayo ang simbahan (the intricacies of the inner sanctum is beyond me!) di na lang ko
mag alig2x ug himo ug comment when I'm too small for the job hah! Aw kung comment lang, pwede ra god. But please don't get tempted to criticize sounding like your the next pope or one from the dead past. Makal lang... hehehe

Fr. Roel,

I did not once claim to be a theologian, so , please don't say that I claim to be a theologian. I do , however, read the Papal Encyclicals as well as study the Catechism on regular basis to see and understand / attain some comprehension on doctrine of the Holy Magesterium. In regards to the question of Kung's heresy, it is not my judgement, actually, but it is something that has been understood and observed by the clergy and by lay people of the Roman Catholic Church.

Let us define the word heresy, shall we?  The Catechism of the Catholic Church states, "Incredulity is the neglect of revealed truth or the willful refusal to assent to it. Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and Catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him" (CCC 2089).

To commit heresy, one must refuse to be corrected. A person who is ready to be corrected or who is unaware that what he has been saying is against Church teaching is not a heretic.

A person must be baptized to commit heresy. This means that movements that have split off from or been influenced by Christianity, but that do not practice baptism (or do not practice valid baptism), are not heresies, but separate religions. Examples include Muslims, who do not practice baptism, and Jehovah’s Witnesses, who do not practice valid baptism.

Finally, the doubt or denial involved in heresy must concern a matter that has been revealed by God and solemnly defined by the Church (for example, the Trinity, the Incarnation, the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, the sacrifice of the Mass, the pope’s infallibility, or the Immaculate Conception and Assumption of Mary).

It is important to distinguish heresy from schism and apostasy. In schism, one separates from the Catholic Church without repudiating a defined doctrine. An example of a contemporary schism is the Society of St. Pius X—the "Lefebvrists" or followers of the late Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre—who separated from the Church in the late 1980s, but who have not denied Catholic doctrines. In apostasy, one totally repudiates the Christian faith and no longer even claims to be a Christian.

Now, back to Hans Kung. What are some of the things that he has done or preached to render him being labeled as a heretic? For one, he has challenged the Authority of the Roman Pontiff, in particular, challenging Papal Infallibility. His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI has taken the position of defending institutional continuity. The Infallibility of the Roman Pontiff in terms of Moral and Theological Truth Ex-Cathedra is clearly established as defined by The Catechism.


Respectfully,
Dr. Lorenzo L.

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Re: Hans Kung: Why Am I Staying in the Church?
« Reply #46 on: February 27, 2013, 11:22:23 PM »

Kung ang Simbahan siging gisaway ni Hans
Angay ba kahang ato siyang biraHans?
Mapasaylo ba kaha ta ni Hans Kung
Iyang ulo sa bongbong atong ipaKung?

:P

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chicogon

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Re: Hans Kung: Why Am I Staying in the Church?
« Reply #47 on: February 28, 2013, 12:28:27 AM »
Kung ang Simbahan siging gisaway ni Hans
Angay ba kahang ato siyang biraHans?
Mapasaylo ba kaha ta ni Hans Kung
Iyang ulo sa bongbong atong ipaKung?

:P

Bwahahaha! Ayaw sa bongbong ipa-KUNG, sa kurus lang aron mahidama sa Ginoo ug mahimong blessed as in the Beatitude: "BulaHANS ang mga ge persecute, the Kingdom of God is theirs!"

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chicogon

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Re: Hans Kung: Why Am I Staying in the Church?
« Reply #48 on: February 28, 2013, 01:01:12 AM »
Dear Lorenz,

I never say you're a theologian and even if you quote old and sometimes irrelevant encyclicals you will never become a legitimate theologian. My 4 years of theology, my ordination to the priesthood and my 27 years as a priest do not make me one either. But my papers or faculties say I can teach and proclaim God's Word and the good news to the flock assigned to me or when I get to dispense the mysteries of our faith at my disposal. But I will never judge people - not by quoting encyclicals, Church pronouncements, books or what-have-you - just because they said or did something that does not agree with our view or belief. Like our Lord, I don't even judge criminals or killers as persons doomed to hell. That is not my job (that's God). In fact, Jesus says in the gospels, "my actions are my judge." And with this I just stay mum and quite... their actions will be their judge and leave it at that. Now, you said "damnable heresy!" Really? You mean you really know what God is going to do for Hans Kung? Since when did you get a privileged access to God's will? I know the Mother Church was given the key... but not just anyone from Chicago or New Orlesns or Tsina; not even to the Queen of Sheba (who comes from the East to condemn the present generation accdg to Jesus) nor to the Queen of Memeng who is a respectable TB member.

I know you are very respectful and a very respectable person, that's why I also sought your opinion many a times. But as an elder or older brother, I will always show my fraternal affection and call it, inigsoong tambag... never judge nobody or anything by what you hear and what you say (refrain/discipline is the word). Leave that to their actions (as their judge) or to the experts. They are the authority. Kita? We're cslled the FAITHFUL and as the word denotes ours is to imitate the heart of Christ who is meek and humble, compassionate and forgiving and has a heart for erring and sinners. A doctor like you, He came for the sick, not the righteous. Let's be that way... and we're not far from the Kingdom. He assures.

"Unless you learn how to forgive... from the heart..."

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Re: Hans Kung: Why Am I Staying in the Church?
« Reply #49 on: February 28, 2013, 01:37:29 AM »
Lorenz:

Please answer my question on Papal Infallibilty when view of the world was still flat and a legitimate expert on the subject matter corrected the idea? 2013 naman karon and modernity taught us that the earth is round after all. Infallible man kaha ang Santo Papa? Nganong nanghilabot toinks!

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Re: Hans Kung: Why Am I Staying in the Church?
« Reply #50 on: February 28, 2013, 05:49:09 AM »
Lorenz:

Please answer my question on Papal Infallibilty when view of the world was still flat and a legitimate expert on the subject matter corrected the idea? 2013 naman karon and modernity taught us that the earth is round after all. Infallible man kaha ang Santo Papa? Nganong nanghilabot toinks!

Fr. Roel,

There have been many developments and changes that have occured since the Counter-Reformation of the 16th century and now. In regards to the issue of the world being flat, that was actually an erroneous thought that was widely accepted by many cartographers, physicians, as well as generals during the mideival period. In fact, Cristopher Columbus , otherwise known as Cristobal Colombo, disproved that false theory that the world was flat. It was generally accepted by many cartographers, and men of science during the day. When he discovered the new world in 1492, it was actually the Church who cooperated with the Kingdom of Spain and Portugal in the conquest, colonization and christianization of the new world.

The Philippines' discovery and colonization, christianization was a result of that discovery and support by the Audencia.

There were many archaic thoughts that have been disproved. In medicine for example, before the onset of modern medicine, the doctors of the ancient days and medieval period believed that the body's health depended on the balance of the humors of the body. They believed that disease manifested when there was an imbalance of the body's humors (liquids). This is why they bled people regularly. But that was corrected.

Papa Infallability Ex Catherda, in my humble opinion, only revolves on issues of Faith and Morals. Not so in regards to science or things of empirical, axiologic developments.

I think it was recently where Pope John Paul II formally apologized for the Church's actions in the past and exhonorated the name of Gallileo.

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Re: Hans Kung: Why Am I Staying in the Church?
« Reply #51 on: February 28, 2013, 09:07:51 AM »
Hmm, sa dagan niining maong lambo kahinumdom man lang ta sa lantugi diri sa TB kabahin ni anhing Angelo Reyes...

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Re: Hans Kung: Why Am I Staying in the Church?
« Reply #52 on: February 28, 2013, 10:32:16 AM »
Hmm, sa dagan niining maong lambo kahinumdom man lang ta sa lantugi diri sa TB kabahin ni anhing Angelo Reyes...

i missed this, or have simply forgotten how it went...

tell me, was there some betting on whether he went to heaven or hell? ;D

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Re: Hans Kung: Why Am I Staying in the Church?
« Reply #53 on: February 28, 2013, 10:37:19 AM »
hehe, thanks fr chic.  i believe i have just been conferred the title of "queen of sheba"? ;D



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Re: Hans Kung: Why Am I Staying in the Church?
« Reply #54 on: February 28, 2013, 10:46:41 AM »
hehe, thanks fr chic.  i believe i have just been conferred the title of "queen of sheba"? ;D



Correction: Queen of Memeng ;D

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Re: Hans Kung: Why Am I Staying in the Church?
« Reply #55 on: February 28, 2013, 10:51:04 AM »
Personally, I think it's cool that somebody's questioning on our behalf. I have a questioning mind myself but I have no microphone nga makaabot sa Vatican or Holy Mother Church. Tagling siguro ning akong tingog, iro may mo towaw kung mo protesta ko. ;D

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Re: Hans Kung: Why Am I Staying in the Church?
« Reply #56 on: February 28, 2013, 10:52:42 AM »
At least dili akoy ma excommunicate even if at times I think along the same line of thought

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Re: Hans Kung: Why Am I Staying in the Church?
« Reply #57 on: February 28, 2013, 11:25:44 AM »
Correction: Queen of Memeng ;D

aw, hehe.  nagbasin-basin ba lang... ;D

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Re: Hans Kung: Why Am I Staying in the Church?
« Reply #58 on: February 28, 2013, 11:28:25 AM »
Personally, I think it's cool that somebody's questioning on our behalf. I have a questioning mind myself but I have no microphone nga makaabot sa Vatican or Holy Mother Church. Tagling siguro ning akong tingog, iro may mo towaw kung mo protesta ko. ;D

sure nga mag-una gyod si imong booboy coorsu ug tubag. ;D

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