Author Topic: How Did Roman Empire Deteriorated And Totally Collapsed? (Read 16910 times)

raldampong · « **Reply #40 on:** April 11, 2009, 03:18:38 PM »

Octavian is son of Marcus Antonus to Athea Julia his mother the sister of Gaius Julius Ceasar. He became a favorite nephew of Gaius Juluis Ceasar and adapted son. He and his father allied to depeat the republican Army of Lapidus And came back to Rome to become a Politician(consul). Later on He hated his father Marcus Antonius very much because of his affair to Cleopatra. And dismantled his own father Marcus Antonius in Egypt.

Later he became Emperor Agustus. And restored peace in The Roman Empire.

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #41 on:** April 11, 2009, 08:14:35 PM »

The Accomplishments of Caesar Augustus: Pater Patriae, Imperator Pontificux et Imperium Romanum:

27 BC : The Senate gave him the title of 'Augustus' a religious coronatory name meaning "Great & Magnificent"

23 BC: Augustus received the Authority of a Tribune and the Proconsular Power In the Provinces

19 BC: Augustus took the Consular Power, and recieved the "Cura Morum" to restore old moral virtues.

12 BC: He became Pontifex Maximus by the election of the Roman Masses throughout all Italy

-During One Year, Augustus renovated 82 Temples of the Gods

-It was Augustus that expanded The Roman Empire to its zenith and declared it not to over-extend its borders.

2 BC: For his extraordinary achievements, the Roman Senate gave him the title, "Pater Patriae" (Father of the Fatherland)

-The 40 years of Augustus' Rule was the most auspicious time in Roman History. It was known as "PAX ROMANUM or PAX AUGUSTA" (Roman Peace, Augstinian Peace)

-Augustus was idolized in Roman literature, sculpture and reliefs

-Extremely popular by the masses and by his legions abroad

14 AD: Emperor Caesar Augustus died in Rome. The Emperor passed away while sitting on the Gold Throne proclaiming edicts, dying while doing his duty to His Empire and His people.

-All of Rome mourned the death of Her God-Emperor. State Mourning for 2 years.

-While Augustus' body was burning in the Imperial Cremation, one senator saw Augustus ascending to Heaven.

-On 17th of September, AD 14: Augustus was elevated to a God, by the Senate and People.

-The empire that he built would last for over 1500 years. And the spirit of his empire, the culture, organization, order, law, tactics, republicanism, exists in the governments of today.

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #42 on:** April 11, 2009, 08:22:14 PM »

The magnificent and auspicious rule of Emperor Augustus, which saw the greatest rise of Roman culture,economy, military prominence, was and is remembered by historians and people, was unequaled and unrivaled by any other Emperor in Roman History.

Augustus The Great only had one flaw, he bore no male child heir to his Imperial Throne.

Augustus gave everything to the Empire, body and soul. He personally commanded armies in his wars to conquering all of Gaul and Germania, attended most Roman religious rituals, traveled to Egypt, Parthia. The pressure of the Imperial Office was definite on the Emperor.

He was unsuccessful in providing the Empire with a male son.

Instead, by proclamation, he named his next of kin, a nephew, Tiberius, to be his regent.

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #43 on:** April 11, 2009, 08:27:01 PM »

The historian, Dr. Turk, a Professor of World History and Roman History at Allegheny College, once said, "Had the Roman Empire produced an Augustus-Like Emperor 3-4 times, Rome would never have fallen. Rome would have conquored the entire world."

I contextually agree with that statement.

In the battle of Philippi, Gaius Octavian Caesar (Augustus) commanded and led his army against the Republican Army led by Brutus and Cassius. Though numerically inferior to the Republican Army, Augustus was able to route the entire Republican Army.

A TOTAL victory.

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #44 on:** April 11, 2009, 10:15:13 PM »

Octavian is son of Marcus Antonus to Athea Julia his mother the sister of Gaius Julius Ceasar. He became a favorite nephew of Gaius Juluis Ceasar and adapted son. He and his father allied to depeat the republican Army of Lapidus And came back to Rome to become a Politician(consul). Later on He hated his father Marcus Antonius very much because of his affair to Cleopatra. And dismantled his own father Marcus Antonius in Egypt.

Later he became Emperor Agustus. And restored peace in The Roman Empire.

Augustus changed the face of Rome, and its political structure, as well.

Prior to his rise to power, Rome existed as a Republic, since the Brutii and the Scipii deposed the last truscan Monarchy some centuries prior.

Roman Republicanism, was the purest form of a Federalist Republic, existing for almost 4 centuries. It was under Roman Republicanism that led to the defeat of the Carthaginians to the Republic in all 3 Punic Wars, leading to the substantial growth of Rome's Possessions overseas--which was one of the main reasons that stimulated the growth of the Roman Navy.

It would supplant the Carthaginian Navy as the largest naval power throughout the entire Mediterranean, and the world at the time.

We have to analyze the actions of the Senate of Rome. This way we can analyze and have a firm bearing on why Caesar Julius was murdered in the Capitoline Steps within the Senatorial Chambers. The senatorial leaders such as Cassius, Brutus, and Cicero believed that Julius Caesar were to remain Dictator for Life, he would undermine the Senate's powers and thwart the present idealogues of Roman Republicanism. They feared a reversal of the political advances of the day, they feared that Rome would yet again become an absolutist monarchy, that was deaf to the pleas of the people and numb to the Republican Democracy that epitomized the Roman Cause.

His murder was perceived to have been the only solution.

They were wrong. The senate was wrong. Immeasurably wrong.

After his death, the heir of Julius Caesar was his grand-nephew, Gaius Octavian Caear (Augustus), who would out due and outlive his adoptive father. In his life time, Augustus would multiply the gains won by Caesar, and dealt a heavy blow to the notion of Roman Republicanism.

Augustus' rise to the throne brought in great centralization to the powers of the Emperor, and marginalized the powers of the Senate. The pure form of Roman Republican Democracy was extinguished altogether in BC 23 when Augustus was proclaimed IMPERATOR, because his role and position was greater than what Caesar Julius ever dreamed. Julius Caesar wanted to become Dictator for Life, and remain the Consul of the Senate.

But what Augustus did, and bequethed by Imperial Decree, was elevate his position above the Senate and the People of Rome. The creation of the Office of The Emperor was, categorically speaking, a religious one. The Emperor and the Office of the Emperor was that of a Religious Primarchy, he was considered the living, breathing, flesh-incarnation of JUPITER, The Roman King of The Gods. Quite similar to the role of Pharaoh in Egyptian civilization and religion. The notion of God-King, or in this case, a God-Emperor.

Augusus not only created a new office, an Imperial Office, but also faciliated the creation of the notion of a God-Emperor. He was, in their society, the personal God for the Roman Citizen. And burning incense and offering prayers to the Emperor was quite common in the Classical Roman Imperial Epoch.

So in the end, the Senate did fail. Their powers were extrapolated and conferred upon the Emperor. The Emperor was considered to be not only a God-Deity, but the Will of the Roman Empire. His word was law, his word was truth, his word was absolute and unchallengeable like the walls of Rome.

Yes, so indeed, the Roman Republic was altogether destroyed and replaced by the Roman Empire.
That is how a Monarchy destroys a Republic.

We see a reversal of political systems in this analysis. First we have an Etruscan Monarchy, which was then overturned and replaced by a Roman Republic, which then would be replaced by an Imperial Monarchical System. With Absolute Power.

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #45 on:** April 12, 2009, 03:16:33 AM »

Interestingly enough,

I've had many a conversation with fellow historians and history students regarding Augustus and leaders in the last 3-4 centuries. One colleague of mine back in Allegheny College, who now is a PhD doctoral student at Duke University, argued that Hitler was similar in the likes of Augustus. In terms of military quota and ambition.

I disagreed, Hitler didn't even come close to the genius that was Augustus. Hitler's military tactics were folly: per se Operation Barbarosa, his foolish venture to conquer the USSR, which failed absolutely, resulting in the loss of over 35 Divisions of Germany's best and the sacrifice of his famed Panzer Divisions. Hitler butched millions of peoples for a foolish ideology of purification, Augustus was nothing like that.

Hitler was not even remotely close to the political and overall Genius of Caesar Augustus.

Hitler was more of a Romulus Augustulus than anything else. --- The result of a tired and economically backwards peoples

Augustus was a living and breathing genius in his time, who dreamed of making the Elbe the new 'Roman Frontier'. Augustus wasn't a war hawk, rather he brought about the greatest epoch in Roman History, PAX ROMANA 'Roman Peace'. Which lasted for about 40-50 years. It was the most prosperous and peaceful time throughout the continuum of The Roman Empire! There were no wars, production and infrastructure boomed in unprecedented levels never heard of or seen of.

It was under the rule of Augusts that the Empire reformed its Legions and tactics in siege warfare and agricultural revolution blossomed. Bringing in grain from Egypt and Germania-Gaul, and zinc, copper, tungsten, metal ore from Hispanola and Dacia, Gold and ivory from North Africa, and timber and stone from Brittania, and the spices from Parthia and the East.

Hail Great Augustus!
Who Is Forever the First Emperor!
The Pillar of the Roman World!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIpjLWQCSY8

-Lorenzo

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raldampong · « **Reply #46 on:** April 12, 2009, 10:57:48 PM »

Dong, did you notice the time table. This also the time of Jesus suffering from Romans.

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #47 on:** April 13, 2009, 04:42:22 AM »

That is very true, Mr. Rald.

The different perspectives of the societies.

That is one of the many reasons why Herod I and his son, Herod Antipas was unpopular with the Jewish people at the time.

Herod was busy trying to enlighten Caesar Augustus that he even built a city called Tiberias and built it in Roman form. And even erected a Temple to Jupiter, to Diana and to the Emperor himself.

Burning incense and offering prayers to the Emperor.

To the Jews and to Christ, no doubt, the actions of Herod was blasphemy.

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #48 on:** April 13, 2009, 04:52:43 AM »

Mr. Rald, you know I was thinking about this some time earlier, but I remember reading a translation of some writings by Claudius Marxentius and of Cicero, who were both scholars in the Roman World during the ending of the BC epoch and the start of the AD epoch;

It was a critical analysis on their part on the Jewish Religion and a comparison to the Roman religion.

We know that in Judaism and similar to Christianity that there is only ONE God, The God of Moses, Abraham, all the prophets of olden days.

The Roman philosophers actually were intrigued by Jewish religious practices, and amazed that the Jews only had one god. As we notice that in most river-based and rich societies that there tended to be a pantheon of deities. Similar to Egyptian and Greek deities.

The Romans studied Jewish religion, and were deeply intrigued in the concept of a personal God. As the gods of the Roman religion were rather impersonal; religious doctrine in Rome required sacrifice and physical momentos of the devotee and to the god(s).

What intrigued Cicero and the like was the longstanding faith of the Jew.

Many civilizations that were conquored by the Romans usually converted to the Roman religion for fear of death, and usually assimilation was quick.
However, the Romans saw the opposite regarding the Province of Judea.

When Rome conquered Judea, Rome built temples of the gods and to the Emperor, and expected a conversion of the local peoples. But to the surprise of the Romans, that manifest will NIL.

Jews remained steadfast to their Monotheistic faith, and abhorred the notion of the pluralism of Roman gods. The Jews, outright, rejected the notion that Caesar was a God. Many Jews reviled the statues to Caesar and desecrating its image, which to the Romans was blasphemy.

It is amazing to me, that even since the days of Christ, the Jews and Early Christians were vehement to their faith. Sticking to their faith under fear of death.

As powerful as Rome was, not ever her armies could force the Jews or early Christians to convert to its pagan religion.

THAT, is the POWER of FAITH.

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raldampong · « **Reply #49 on:** April 13, 2009, 03:26:04 PM »

There's a saying that "All roads lead to Rome" The Romans built roads and bridges in all the cities they annexed. Even until now still exist The road from Rome to Damascus, Syria in present still usable.

The flows of goods to the Italian cities are unrestricted during that time, They called it the "Renaissance Period". Where cultures, art and literatures flourished during that times of Emperor Agustus.

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #50 on:** April 13, 2009, 03:39:50 PM »

There are some historians that would say that Rome lives on today.
Only in another form, another nation.

There are those who would say that America is the new Roman Empire
and Washington D.C the new Rome.

The United States of America holds true to the notion of a Republican form of Democracy.
The old Roman Senatorial class lives on in the halls of the Congress of the United States: The Senate and the House of Representatives.

And the President as the 'enlightened' form of the Roman Emperor.

There are similarities between the two. Both were super powers in their own times.

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #51 on:** April 13, 2009, 03:47:49 PM »

In fact, its interesting when one analyzes the architecture of the United States Governmental buildings, as it retains a strong Roman-style and form.

Especially the Supreme Court and the United States Capitol Building, which is home to the Senate and House of Representatives.

The United States Supreme Court

The United States Capitol Building
Home to the US Senate and House of Congress
Notice the Roman style in architecture

Abraham Lincoln Memorial
-If you analyze this in a contextual point of view, it is basically a Temple
-The degree of popularity of Lincoln in US history text books, in contextual dialogue, in sociological view, and political reference, his popularity in the American psyche has basically made him into a political deity.

No, I don't believe Rome totally perished.
Rome lives on today.

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raldampong · « **Reply #52 on:** April 13, 2009, 04:00:40 PM »

The magnificent and auspicious rule of Emperor Augustus, which saw the greatest rise of Roman culture,economy, military prominence, was and is remembered by historians and people, was unequaled and unrivaled by any other Emperor in Roman History.

Augustus The Great only had one flaw, he bore no male child heir to his Imperial Throne.

Augustus gave everything to the Empire, body and soul. He personally commanded armies in his wars to conquering all of Gaul and Germania, attended most Roman religious rituals, traveled to Egypt, Parthia. The pressure of the Imperial Office was definite on the Emperor.

He was unsuccessful in providing the Empire with a male son.

Instead, by proclamation, he named his next of kin, a nephew, Tiberius, to be his regent.

Octavian, during his childhood had incesteous affair with her sister Selene. He adored her sister very much that he's heart is just for her sister.

He's father Marcus Antonius thought he is weak. Octavian learned early Political Strategy through his adapted father Gaius Julius Ceasar.

The hatred between Sevilla and Athea started it all. Sevilla is the mother Lapidus. Bruttus and Cassius who allied with Cicero started the plot to kill Julius Cesaer. Sevilla is as concubine of JC who dislike Octavian as heirs in favor of his son Lapidus.

But Julius Cesaer like Octavian very much because of his pure in heart and motives. His love of his people pure. So when JC died his first act of introduction to the populace is give all the money to the people of Rome. About 3 million lira, every citizen will get 300 lira. Nice moved huh.

This make His Mother and father very upset, and sent hi to the south for exiles with a few soldiers, that later on became a Legion that defeated all enemies in the south.

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #53 on:** April 13, 2009, 04:51:09 PM »

It is also interesting to read about what the Roman historians described Augustus. As it adds mortality to the genius that was Augustus.

The historian Seutonius described Augustus as, "He was unusually handsome ... He had clear, bright eyes ... His teeth were wide apart, small, and ill-kept; his hair was slightly curly and inclining to golden; his eyebrows met. His ears were of moderate size, and his nose projected a little at the top and then bent ever so slightly inward. His complexion was between dark and fair. He was short of stature."

Source:

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Suetonius/12Caesars/Augustus*.html#79

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #54 on:** April 13, 2009, 04:58:15 PM »

Augustus was heralded also by the Roman people as a religious primarch, a devotee and devout practictioner of Roman religion.

He was a devotee of the God Mars and Jupiter.

The Roman historian wrote about him:

He (Augustus The Great) built many public works, in particular the following: his forum with the temple of Mars the Avenger, the temple of Apollo on the Palatine, and the fane of Jupiter the Thunderer on the Capitol. His reason for building the forum was the increase in the number of the people and of cases at law, which seemed to call for a third forum, since two were no longer adequate. Therefore it was opened to the public with some haste, before the temple of Mars was finished, and it was provided that the public prosecutions be held there apart from the rest, as well as the selection of jurors by lot.

He reared the temple of Apollo in that part of his house on the Palatine for which the soothsayers declared that the god had shown his desire by striking it with lightning. He joined to it colonnades with Latin and Greek libraries, and when he was getting to be an old man he often held meetings of the senate there as well, and revised the lists of jurors. He dedicated the shrine to Jupiter the Thunderer because of a narrow escape; for on his Cantabrian expedition during a march by night, a flash of lightning grazed his litter and struck the slave dead who was carrying a torch before him.

And many such works were built at that time by many men; for example, the temple of Hercules and the Muses by Marcius Philippus, the temple of Diana by Lucius Cornificius, the Hall of Liberty by Asinius Pollio, the temple of Saturn by Munatius Plancus, a theatre by Cornelius Balbus, an amphitheatre by Statilius Taurus, and by Marcus Agrippa in particular many magnificent structures.

Next to the immortal Gods he honoured the memory of the leaders who had raised the estate of the Roman people from obscurity to greatness. Accordingly he restored the works of such men with their original inscriptions, and in the two colonnades of his forum dedicated statues of all of them in triumphal garb, declaring besides in a proclamation: "I have contrived this to lead the citizens to require me, while I live, and the rulers of later times as well, to attain the standard set by those worthies of old." He also moved the statue of Pompey from the hall in which Gaius Caesar had been slain and placed it on a marble arch opposite the grand door of Pompey's theatre.

Source:
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Suetonius/12Caesars/Augustus*.html#79

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raldampong · « **Reply #55 on:** April 13, 2009, 05:20:16 PM »

Dong, any of our Politician can learn from the history of the Romans. Because history repeat itself.

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #56 on:** April 13, 2009, 05:31:54 PM »

Mr. Rald,

If Augustus were born in our day and managed to rise to the ranks of a senator or politician in the Philippines, the Philippines would become a power house in the region.

The brilliance of Augustus and his piety to his religion is something to be modeled after by any and all politicians. In any epoch.

I would compare his brilliance to that of Abraham Lincoln.

Great in their own time. And still great and honored in later generations.

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #57 on:** April 14, 2009, 09:06:28 AM »

Did you know that Augustus, when he was alive, refused Divine praises?

During the height of his political career, when the title of 'Pater Patriae' (Father Of the Fatherland) was conferred upon him by the Roman Senate, he accepted with hesitation.

Some of his fanatical followers, many of them Senators and centurions in the legions even proposed that he be deified while still alive. Augustus, who never liked excesses in glorifcation, once said to his followers, "Praise not I, target your praises to the Immortal Gods. I am but a servant of Rome."

His commentry had a reversal effect. It only increased his popularity within the plebeians and his supporters in the Roman Senate. Many of whom, despite Caesar's protests, offered him divine praises when he entered the forum and capitolline.

When Augustus addressed the senate, many senators would prostrate themselves in his presence, others would burn incense as Augustus spoke, which was actually only provoked Augustus to anger, the Roman historian Seutonius documented this.

He was so popular in life. Many Roman citizens referring him to 'Jupiterus Pontifex Suprasuperiosux', which was a title of the God Jupiter.

Upon his death, Augustus, who in life refused divine praises, was declared a God by the Senate and People of Rome (SPQR). He was deified not only in the cities, but in Egypt, the province that he conquored some decades prior.

Augustus was the center of the Imperial Cult of the Emperor, and a shrine to his honor was erected rather close to the forum, beside the Temple to Divus Ilius, the deified Julius Caesar.

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buwadsanga · « **Reply #58 on:** April 14, 2009, 09:16:01 AM »

americans should look as a mirror with regards to the fall of roman empire. it will happen and soon to USA, the economy and trillion deficits speaks for itslef. world power is shifting now from the atlantic/pacific to the indian ocean and china sea.

how does a debt ridden country like USA to lead the world.

for the times they are a changin' - bob dylan

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #59 on:** April 14, 2009, 09:21:44 AM »

Dong, any of our Politician can learn from the history of the Romans. Because history repeat itself.

Octavian, during his childhood had incesteous affair with her sister Selene. He adored her sister very much that he's heart is just for her sister.

He's father Marcus Antonius thought he is weak. Octavian learned early Political Strategy through his adapted father Gaius Julius Ceasar.

The hatred between Sevilla and Athea started it all. Sevilla is the mother Lapidus. Bruttus and Cassius who allied with Cicero started the plot to kill Julius Cesaer. Sevilla is as concubine of JC who dislike Octavian as heirs in favor of his son Lapidus.

But Julius Cesaer like Octavian very much because of his pure in heart and motives. His love of his people pure. So when JC died his first act of introduction to the populace is give all the money to the people of Rome. About 3 million lira, every citizen will get 300 lira. Nice moved huh.

This make His Mother and father very upset, and sent hi to the south for exiles with a few soldiers, that later on became a Legion that defeated all enemies in the south.

Octavian was a tactical genius. When his grandmother, Julia Caesaris died, he was the one that delivered the eulogorium (eulogy) prior to her cremation.

The Roman historian Seutonius remarked how well delivered it was. So much that it captured the heart of Julius Caesar, prompting him to adopt his grand-nephew, Octavian.

As Octavian's mother was the niece of Julius Caesar.

Julius Caesar loved the boy so much that he had him recieve the toga virilus (act of Adulthood) in the Forum. And publicly declared before the gods and the Senate that he be his lawful son and heir.

Augustus was only 17 years old and he had already begun political life.

Throughout his life, his tactical genius renovated the empire, constructed roads, and ports, aqueducts, baths, etc.

His masterminding of the empire was absolute. Very little changed in terms of policy throughout the empire with only little modifications during the rule of Trajan and Hadrian. For the net 300 years.

Augustus' son and heir, Tiberius, never wanted to be emperor.

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #60 on:** April 14, 2009, 09:24:17 AM »

americans should look as a mirror with regards to the fall of roman empire. it will happen and soon to USA, the economy and trillion deficits speaks for itslef. world power is shifting now from the atlantic/pacific to the indian ocean and china sea.

how does a debt ridden country like USA to lead the world.

for the times they are a changin' - bob dylan

All civilizations rise and fall, Buwad. But the time isn't nigh for America.
America has yet to reach its zenith.

Rome existed for over 1500 years.

America is only 233 years old. We have another 1000+ years.

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #61 on:** April 14, 2009, 09:31:41 AM »

Did you know why Tiberius refused to be Emperor when duty called him?

He feared his own father. He was afraid of the shoe he had to fit.

In AD 14, when Emperor Augustus the Great passed this world, the Roman Senate convened to declare Tiberius as Emperor.

To the surprise of the Senate, Tiberius once said, "I wish not to have all the power, give me half of government, and the rest can be ruled by the Senate."

The senate was confused and bewildered with such a statement.

One senator refuted, "But, Sire, how long shall you expected the state to be without its head?"

It was only with the instance of the Senate and the legions that Tiberius accepted the throne of his father.

Throughout his life, Tiberius lived under the shadow of his father, Augustus the Great.
As the expectations the state had for his rule was set to the standards pre-ordained by his own father, Augustus.

Tiberius once complained to the Senate, "How can I be expected to surpass Excellence? For surely, Augustus was the epitome of Excellence."

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buwadsanga · « **Reply #62 on:** April 14, 2009, 10:02:00 AM »

hahaaha. modern time is changing in an electronic speed. oneday when you wake up it already happen. you better watchout for it!

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #63 on:** April 14, 2009, 10:12:59 AM »

lol, sure Buwad. Whatever you dream about.

Lets get back to topic shall we

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fdaray · « **Reply #64 on:** April 14, 2009, 12:47:25 PM »

There are a bunch of reasons why the Roman Empire fell. I will discuss them in the order of their importance:

1. Tyranny - When Julius Caesar killed the too corrupt Republic he had replaced a form of bad government with one, which at that time, seemed good. On the short run (~180 years) the empire was better then the old republic, but on the long run it was to be the core of the rotten empire. A long series of emperors had nothing to do with the well-beeing of the empire, they only saw their own interests and vices. Internal crisis weakend the imperial army which was no longer capable of defending the empire.
2. No more practice of virtues. In the time of the republic the romans built the empire step by step, discipline was a common word, law and order reigned everywhere. The barbarians where not (yet) afraid of the mighy legions. When the republic turned into the empire, it was near its peak. Pace came and there was no more need for a well disciplined army or brillliant generals; people mixed and the roman blood was no longer pure (it is strongly related to the difference I wazs talking about: ancient roman- modern italian). The barbarians where now afraid even when they heard the name of the Roman Empire. So on the base of peace and prosperity (the Pax Romana) the empire started to slide downwards. Soon the barbarians started to realise that the mighty roman army was not what it used to be. While they were attacking the boders of the empire the internal crisis decimated the flower of the roman army. And the fall was only at the beginning. Diocletian was the last good emperor to realise that the empire could no longer be governed by one person... At this point there was no turning back...
3. Christianity - some may not agree with me but I (and other people way smarter then me) think that Christianity is one of the most importnat reasons of the decline of the Roman Empire. Christianity told people that the life on earth is, for the most part useless. The material world is only temporary, so people no longer practiced the virtues and simply waited for the kingdom of heaven. The army was no longer considered a priority, because God will not reward the brave man of the legions. As I see it Christianity corroded the very pilars of the Roman society. As there was no more wish to fight, the end was no longer a problem of if, but of when.

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #65 on:** April 14, 2009, 01:09:16 PM »

There are a bunch of reasons why the Roman Empire fell. I will discuss them in the order of their importance:

1. Tyranny - When Julius Caesar killed the too corrupt Republic he had replaced a form of bad government with one, which at that time, seemed good. On the short run (~180 years) the empire was better then the old republic, but on the long run it was to be the core of the rotten empire. A long series of emperors had nothing to do with the well-beeing of the empire, they only saw their own interests and vices. Internal crisis weakend the imperial army which was no longer capable of defending the empire.
2. No more practice of virtues. In the time of the republic the romans built the empire step by step, discipline was a common word, law and order reigned everywhere. The barbarians where not (yet) afraid of the mighy legions. When the republic turned into the empire, it was near its peak. Pace came and there was no more need for a well disciplined army or brillliant generals; people mixed and the roman blood was no longer pure (it is strongly related to the difference I wazs talking about: ancient roman- modern italian). The barbarians where now afraid even when they heard the name of the Roman Empire. So on the base of peace and prosperity (the Pax Romana) the empire started to slide downwards. Soon the barbarians started to realise that the mighty roman army was not what it used to be. While they were attacking the boders of the empire the internal crisis decimated the flower of the roman army. And the fall was only at the beginning. Diocletian was the last good emperor to realise that the empire could no longer be governed by one person... At this point there was no turning back...
3. Christianity - some may not agree with me but I (and other people way smarter then me) think that Christianity is one of the most importnat reasons of the decline of the Roman Empire. Christianity told people that the life on earth is, for the most part useless. The material world is only temporary, so people no longer practiced the virtues and simply waited for the kingdom of heaven. The army was no longer considered a priority, because God will not reward the brave man of the legions. As I see it Christianity corroded the very pilars of the Roman society. As there was no more wish to fight, the end was no longer a problem of if, but of when.

Mr. Daray,

That is a really good synopsis you have there, sir.

Your analysis is astute, sir. I must agree with you regarding the long list of emperors that came after Claudius, though there were some exceptional Emperors that brought some kind of peace and stability to the empire in the later years (per se: Hadrian, Trajan, Diocletian, Marcus Aurelius) thought they were few in number.

One contributing factor that led to the collapse of the Roman Empire was peace and complacency.

The Imperial Army no longer maintained the rigor and strict demeanor that it had proliferated in days of Augustus and Tiberius. Rome's legions were no longer trained in Rome, but were conscripts of barbarians that were Romanized or slaves that were thrust into military service.

As a result of the decentralization of the military, it laxed in ability. You're right, Mr. Daray, Rome's continual breeding with other cultures developed a 'mixed' people. The original Latin Roman no longer existed, but instead was replaced by a mixture of peoples that claimed Roman right, by citizenship.

The rise of Christianity, definitely, did have its effect on the empire. The brutality and militaristic precision of pre-christian Rome was undoubted. We have so many cases of Rome's absolution regarding city states that revolted against Rome being put to the sword (eg, Jerusalem in the revolt of AD 65, the revolt in Alexandria that was put down by razing the city etc). The law and order Rome implemented and kept was made manifest with the use of crucifixion, which symbolized Roman law and order. Crucifixion, altogether, was done away with when Constantine rose to the throne. Since Constantine was Christian, he forbade the use of crucifixion throughout the empire, and made the cross into a religious symbol. The effects of which, is felt even today.

The old Roman virtues that were symbolic of pre-christian Rome was displaced and supplanted with Christian ideals.

One can infer that it weakened the Roman Empire, at the expense of Rome and at the benefit of non-christian barbaric peoples such as the Visigoths, Vandals, Ostrogoths and Berber-Arabs, that took advantage of Rome's weakness and 'Christian Enlightenment'.

Great post, Mr. Daray!

I enjoyed reading it!

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Amir · « **Reply #66 on:** April 14, 2009, 11:25:30 PM »

One thing i was confused is the twist of romans to christianity, how the great romans converted into christians?

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #67 on:** April 15, 2009, 12:26:47 AM »

One thing i was confused is the twist of romans to christianity, how the great romans converted into christians?

This is a question that is deep, Amir. Many historians argue this very question, to which has been a great dialogue.

Though my knowledge in Roman History is limited as compared to other historian contemporaries, I can infer some truths regarding your topic and question.

The old Roman religion was a polytheistic religion, based on the Greek pantheon of deities, with its own concept of creationism, with deities that represented natural aspects. Jupiter, for example, was the Roman Father of the gods, who had the power of lightning and thunder, Mars the Avenger, was the Roman god of war (similar to the Greek deity, Ares, who was the God of war), the goddess Diana, etc.

Roman religion evolved many ways throughout the continuum of the empire, and a major aspect of Roman religion was the prevalence of religious cults and importation of foreign ideology. An example this is made manifest in the growth of the incorporation of the Egyptian goddess, Isis, into the Roman religion after the conquest of Egypt during the reign of Augustus. There were also a prevalence of the Cult of the Emperor. The Emperor of Rome was considered a living and physical God, the physical incarnation of Jupiter. And like wise, it was common for Roman citizens, senators, legionaries to refer to him as, "Pater Nostreum", which means, 'Our Lord'. Divine praises were offered to the Emperor, and many Romans would burn incense to the statue of the Caesars of Rome, a daily practice that was promulgated by the Act of Divinity of Emperors. It was an act that was ordered by the Roman Senate.

One thing you have to take into consideration is that there was no 'personal' God in the Roman religion. The immortal Roman gods did not offer salvation to the citizenry and devotees, so to say, as compared to the role of Christ in Christianity. Christ Jesus offered salvation, and was the personal God for believers. Whereas in Roman religion, it was required for devotees to offer sacrifices to the gods in order to please them and to thwart the anger of the Gods. And prayers to the Emperor was enforced, it was required by law, so as we see there is no personal connection.

The rigidity and looseness of Roman religion led to the conversion of many peoples. Christianity, which was illegal and considered a religious cult during the early days of the empire, grew rapidly and was substantiated as a major world religion due to the massive conversions.

When the Emperor Constantine I, coverted to Christianity after his great epiphany in the Battle of Mirvian Bridge, which he won due to the image of the Cross he saw in the sky. When Constantine was coronated in the Capitolline steps in Rome, he violated and broke Imperial custom. This is interesting to know because when a new Emperor was coronated, the first act of any Emperor was to offer divine praises and burn incenses to the Temples of the Gods, and refer to himself in the Divine person.

Constantine broke this custom. Constantine didn't offer divine praises to the Roman Gods, and he vehemently refused divine praises on his persona. Constantine was baptized into the Christian Church, and he made Christianity the main state religion, and he initiated laws that outlawed religious cults as well as forbade the practice of the 'pagan' religion of the past.

The effects of this change in religious policy forever changed the Roman Empire.

Christianity grew and blossomed throughout the empire. Churches were built in replace of temples, and the conversion of many peoples occured. The province of Hispanola (Spain), became christian, so did the province of Gaulia-Franconia (France) as well part of the province of Germanium (Germany), and Brittania (present day UK). The province of Egypt also became Christian (note the rise of coptic churches) etc.

With this act, the notion of Divine Right of the Roman Emperor was obliterated. No longer was the word of the Emperor the 'law' and 'absolute truth'.

As a result, revolts, and rebellion throughout the empire became a pragmatic reality.

As the Emperor no longer was a God. But a mere man.

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #68 on:** December 04, 2009, 09:28:41 AM »

Let us resuscitate this thread. As it is of personal interest to me.

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raldampong · « **Reply #69 on:** December 05, 2009, 09:46:35 PM »

Many believed that the new Europe is the new Roman Empire. For my belief the Roman Catholic Religion is the extension of the Roman Empire. Thanks Dong Bran.

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #70 on:** December 06, 2009, 12:26:00 AM »

I agree with you on that, Mr. Rald.
The Roman Empire, indeed, was the first conceptual parallel to the political construct that is the European Union. The European Union, like the Roman Empire, is composed of many states (nations) under governmental rule but owing allegiance to the EU. But together, as a community, pools its resources for the benefit of the entire Continent.

The Roman Empire, much like the European Union, functioned the sameway, to a lesser degree--but politically very similar. The Empire was composed of many provinces and territories that were annexed by the Roman Imperial Army. Every province had a center, a provincial capital and each province had Roman Governor that was selected and hand picked by the Emperor himself. Representing the persona of the Emperor and the authority vested in the Governor came from the SPQR (Senatus Populare Qae Romanum = The Senate of the People of Rome). Whose authority came from not only the Emperor--the Divine Being, the soul of the Empire, but also the political and massed authority that came from the Will of the People---through the Imperial Roman Senate.

Europe has not seen such stability and union since the days of Rome when most of the continent was ruled and governed by one power.

Napoleon, Hitler, Stalin etc did not even come close to the level of growth, maturity, jurisprudence, peace, superfluous growth that Rome contributed to Europe.

So therefore, one can say that there are some similarities between The Roman Empire and the European Union.

In my opinion, the only difference is the military animality of Rome. The EU, seems to implement and showcase a neutral geopolitical stance. Whereas Rome was a military animal, the world's then only super power, with a voracious appetite for war, conquest and growth through the means of power and subjugation of the enemy.

In the words of Emperor Augustus, "The Roman Eagle sees across the horizon, and her wings trembles the nations before her."

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #71 on:** December 06, 2009, 12:40:16 AM »

Many believed that the new Europe is the new Roman Empire. For my belief the Roman Catholic Religion is the extension of the Roman Empire. Thanks Dong Bran.

The Roman Catholic Church was the very power that defeated Pagan Rome.

It was the church, the very same church that was instructed, nurtured and preached by Paul and Peter the Apostles.

The same Church, whose martyrs were fed to the Lions and crucified en mass by the Roman Gladiatorial Games.

The Same Church, The Same Catholic Church, that was persecuted. But it was through the FAITH of the Church that led to the widespread conversion of the pagan Romans.

For the Church provided answers and faith to the Roman people, and provided consolation that the old roman religion could not even offer. The Church conquored the Roman paganism, and supplanted it with CHRISTIANITY.

The Roman Catholic Church was weak, but through its faith, it conquored and defeated the very power that was responsible for crucifying the Lord Jesus Christ on the Cross.

----

Isn't it beautiful?

Rome crucified Christ--because it was destined and prophesied.
His death was necessary for the redemption of all.
And in the end, the very power that crucified Christ and persecuted its believers...
was defeated and CONVERTED to CHRIST.

POWERFUL.
A LIVING MIRACLE.

As it is foretold in Scripture:

~2 Corinthians 12:10 Therefore I am well content with weaknesses, with insults, with distresses, with persecutions, with difficulties, for Christ's sake; for when I am weak, then I am strong.

The weak is exalted in Christ.

The Church is living testament to HIS promise.

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Vistabel · « **Reply #72 on:** December 23, 2009, 03:10:10 AM »

Nagpabunjag man gud ug Catholico si Emperor Constantine diha nag sugod ang pag collapse sa powerful Roman Empire.

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #73 on:** September 07, 2010, 09:24:07 AM »

The Roman Empire was already collapsing prior to Constantine's conversion to Christianity. Constantine's conversion was a public statement, that the 'Old Roman Virtues' that were affiliated with the old religion was now downcasted. Tho one can argue that the 'classic' Roman Empire ceased to exist when Christianity was promulgated as the state religion, one relates the Roman collapse , in the traditional sense, to its military defeat to he Vandals and the uncontrolled German attacks of the Empire's frontier until the latter razed the Eternal City of Rome to the ground in the 5th century AD.

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #74 on:** September 07, 2010, 09:25:57 AM »

Ah, you mean the Holy Roman Empire. That was later than the Classical Roman Empire. Think of it as a medieval version of the European Union.

Correct, Ben. Not to mention the main difference in the fact that the classic Roman Empire was Latin and ruled by Latin peoples of Italy. The latter Holy Roman Empire was Germanic. The essential difference that delineates the said two political entities: language & ethnicity.

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