Author Topic: What did John Wesley say about Mary's Perpetual Virginity? (Read 1017 times)

Lorenzo · « **on:** November 27, 2012, 12:49:44 PM »

What did John Wesley ( Father of Methodism) say about Mary's Perpetual Virginity?

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #1 on:** November 27, 2012, 12:50:46 PM »

ANSWER:

The Blessed Virgin Mary, who, as well after as when she brought him forth, continued a pure and unspotted virgin.

Reference:
{"Letter to a Roman Catholic" / In This Rock, Nov. 1990, p.25}

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #2 on:** November 27, 2012, 02:01:45 PM »

Even John Wesley, in 1749, wrote:

"I believe that He [Jesus] was made man, joining the human nature with the divine in one person; being conceived by the singular operation of the Holy Ghost, and born of the blessed Virgin Mary, who, as well after as before she brought Him forth, continued a pure and unspotted virgin."

(Letter to a Roman Catholic)

http://youngevangelicalandcatholic.blogspot.com/2011/11/protestant-defense-of-marys-perpetual.html

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fdaray · « **Reply #3 on:** November 27, 2012, 02:28:44 PM »

ANSWER:

The Blessed Virgin Mary, who, as well after as when she brought him forth, continued a pure and unspotted virgin.

Reference:
{"Letter to a Roman Catholic" / In This Rock, Nov. 1990, p.25}

Brother in Christ, Lorenz, this is not a verse in the Bible to prove Mary's perpetual virginity. Please site verses to prove. WE don not base on Letters or Orders.

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #4 on:** November 27, 2012, 02:33:10 PM »

Dear Mr. Daray,

The following written letter was the opinion of Reverend John Wesley, the founder of the United Methodist Church, had on the Perpetual Virginity of Mary. It shows to you, my friend, as well as illustrates to you that even the great Protestant Reformers maintained the veneration of Mary as well as supported the Roman Catholic Church's Doctrine of Perpetual Virginity of Mary.

Yours in Christ,
Bran Lorenzo

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #5 on:** November 27, 2012, 02:35:46 PM »

Dear Mr. Daray,

Our Lady is referred as the ARK OF THE COVENANT.

In fact, there is a direct new testament verse that refers to her , found in the book of revelations:

18 The nations raged, but thy wrath came, and the time for the dead to be judged, for rewarding thy servants, the prophets and saints, and those who fear thy name, both small and great, and for destroying the destroyers of the earth." 19 Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple; and there were flashes of lightning, voices, peals of thunder, an earthquake, and heavy hail. 1 And a great portent appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; 2 she was with child and she cried out in her pangs of birth, in anguish for delivery.

-Revelation 11:18-12-2

Our Blessed Mother, is referred to directly here as the Ark of His Covenant. The Ark of the Covenant is pure, unblemished, and spotless. This is the basis of the Doctrine of Immaculate Conception and Perpetual Virginity of Blessed Mother Mary.

The thinking goes that if Mary is the fulfillment of the Ark of the Covenant, then she must be "all holy". Remember that in the Old Covenant a man was killed for touching the ark. It was holy. If the box that held stone tablets was so restricted - so also would be the woman who actually carried God Himself. And so she is all pure and all holy, without the stain of sin.

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fdaray · « **Reply #6 on:** November 27, 2012, 08:33:18 PM »

Dear Mr. Daray,

The following written letter was the opinion of Reverend John Wesley, the founder of the United Methodist Church, had on the Perpetual Virginity of Mary. It shows to you, my friend, as well as illustrates to you that even the great Protestant Reformers maintained the veneration of Mary as well as supported the Roman Catholic Church's Doctrine of Perpetual Virginity of Mary.

Yours in Christ,
Bran Lorenzo

KInsa man ni si Westly. Ang atong patubagon ang Bibliya, asa nga verse, dili ang tawo.Kon moingon tag virgin, dili man mahimong virgin si Mary kay diha si Jesus miagi sa iyang tagoangkan. Tinuod nga virgin siya sa wala pa gianak si Jesus. Kining doctrina sa Immaculada Conception nga naggatudlo sa perpetual virginity of Mary niadto pa nga 1854 gihimo nga Dogma sa Simbahang Katoliko.

Pope Pius IX declared the Immaculate Conception of Mary an article of faith on this day, December 8, 1854. According to his pronouncement in Ineffabilis Deus, Mary was given grace to be sinless at the instant of her conception. Sin was shut out of her. The teaching was controversial among Christians at large. Neither Protestant nor Orthodox accept it.
In general Christians insist that any major doctrine must be clearly backed up by some Scripture. Catholics require the same. Yet, as the Catholic Encyclopedia admits: "No direct or categorical and stringent proof of the dogma can be brought forward from Scripture." Edward O'Connor, compiling a massive defense of the belief went even further, acknowledging that the idea was not even a tradition of the early church, coming to the fore about only 1100 AD.
According to O'Connor, the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception was "handicapped by the lack of any clear Scriptural evidence (or, even...any explicit patristic tradition) in its favor, but it even seemed to go counter to the clear teaching of St. Paul...and Christ's own declaration..."
What is more, many of the greatest fathers of the church and its "doctors," explicitly rejected the idea. How could this belief be accepted when it is not taught in Scripture, had at best a weak early tradition, and was explicitly rejected by theologians of the highest rank?
Although the early church recognized that God chose Mary for a special place in His plan, countless

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #7 on:** November 28, 2012, 04:22:08 AM »

KInsa man ni si Westly. Ang atong patubagon ang Bibliya, asa nga verse, dili ang tawo.Kon moingon tag virgin, dili man mahimong virgin si Mary kay diha si Jesus miagi sa iyang tagoangkan. Tinuod nga virgin siya sa wala pa gianak si Jesus. Kining doctrina sa Immaculada Conception nga naggatudlo sa perpetual virginity of Mary niadto pa nga 1854 gihimo nga Dogma sa Simbahang Katoliko.

Pope Pius IX declared the Immaculate Conception of Mary an article of faith on this day, December 8, 1854. According to his pronouncement in Ineffabilis Deus, Mary was given grace to be sinless at the instant of her conception. Sin was shut out of her. The teaching was controversial among Christians at large. Neither Protestant nor Orthodox accept it.
In general Christians insist that any major doctrine must be clearly backed up by some Scripture. Catholics require the same. Yet, as the Catholic Encyclopedia admits: "No direct or categorical and stringent proof of the dogma can be brought forward from Scripture." Edward O'Connor, compiling a massive defense of the belief went even further, acknowledging that the idea was not even a tradition of the early church, coming to the fore about only 1100 AD.
According to O'Connor, the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception was "handicapped by the lack of any clear Scriptural evidence (or, even...any explicit patristic tradition) in its favor, but it even seemed to go counter to the clear teaching of St. Paul...and Christ's own declaration..."
What is more, many of the greatest fathers of the church and its "doctors," explicitly rejected the idea. How could this belief be accepted when it is not taught in Scripture, had at best a weak early tradition, and was explicitly rejected by theologians of the highest rank?
Although the early church recognized that God chose Mary for a special place in His plan, countless

John Wesley, like many of the protestant reformers of the 17th till 19th centuries contributed to the concept of the 'great awakening' in regards to the protestant movement, Mr. Daray. You are a deacon at a local baptist church there in Digos City, are you not? The baptist and anabaptist movement traces itself in the same theological line as the English Separatists, to which John Wesley came from. John Wesley founded the United Methodist Church, which is one of the largest protestant churches in the world. Wesley's evangelical missions contributed to the birth of many baptist movements in the United States, which then spread itself to the third world through missionary movements. Hence the plethora of baptist churches in the Philippines, vis-a-vis American missionaries who were influenced by Methodist theolology.

Without John Wesley, there would be no United Methodist Church, and without that, there would be no proliferation of the Baptist movement, which splintered from the original English Separatist View.

What is very interesting is that many proto-protestant churches such as the Lutheran Church, Presbyterian Church, United Methodist Church, Calvinist Church, as well as the Church of England (Anglican Church) are sympathetic to the theological doctrine of Immaculate Conception. Tho these churches splintered from Holy Mother Church [The One, Holy, Roman Catholic Church], it is quite interesting that they still maintain the theological doctrine of Perpetual Virginity of Mary as well as the Immaculate Conception of Mary.

The multitude of neo-protestant churches, namely the born-again movement, fundamental baptist movements, splintered from the proto-protestant church's theology. There is much more similarity between the Holy Mother Church and the proto-protestant churches than the neo-protestant churches. The dynamic of Church History is amazing.

Yours In Christ,
Lorenzo

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #8 on:** November 28, 2012, 04:36:33 AM »

KInsa man ni si Westly. Ang atong patubagon ang Bibliya, asa nga verse, dili ang tawo.Kon moingon tag virgin, dili man mahimong virgin si Mary kay diha si Jesus miagi sa iyang tagoangkan. Tinuod nga virgin siya sa wala pa gianak si Jesus. Kining doctrina sa Immaculada Conception nga naggatudlo sa perpetual virginity of Mary niadto pa nga 1854 gihimo nga Dogma sa Simbahang Katoliko.

Pope Pius IX declared the Immaculate Conception of Mary an article of faith on this day, December 8, 1854. According to his pronouncement in Ineffabilis Deus, Mary was given grace to be sinless at the instant of her conception. Sin was shut out of her. The teaching was controversial among Christians at large. Neither Protestant nor Orthodox accept it.
In general Christians insist that any major doctrine must be clearly backed up by some Scripture. Catholics require the same. Yet, as the Catholic Encyclopedia admits: "No direct or categorical and stringent proof of the dogma can be brought forward from Scripture." Edward O'Connor, compiling a massive defense of the belief went even further, acknowledging that the idea was not even a tradition of the early church, coming to the fore about only 1100 AD.
According to O'Connor, the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception was "handicapped by the lack of any clear Scriptural evidence (or, even...any explicit patristic tradition) in its favor, but it even seemed to go counter to the clear teaching of St. Paul...and Christ's own declaration..."
What is more, many of the greatest fathers of the church and its "doctors," explicitly rejected the idea. How could this belief be accepted when it is not taught in Scripture, had at best a weak early tradition, and was explicitly rejected by theologians of the highest rank?
Although the early church recognized that God chose Mary for a special place in His plan, countless

Dear Mr. Daray,

Does the Holy Bible explicitly use the word "Trinity" ? Please answer this question.

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Lorenzo · « **Reply #9 on:** November 28, 2012, 12:13:43 PM »

Mr. Daray,

No where in the bible is the word "TRINITY" or "HOLY TRINITY" explicitly being used by the authors. Mark, Luke, Timothy, Paul, Peter, John, James and Jude, the new testament authors, do not use this term at all. However, Mr. Daray, we as Christians believe in the presence and the authority of the Holy Trinity. Why, Mr. Daray? Because the Doctrine of the Holy Trinity is essential to the Christian faith, which separates Christianity from the early heresies that rejected the Trinitarian view.

Mr. Daray, do you know who established the unquestionable and irrefutable position of the Holy Trinity? Mr. Daray, it was first used actually by Tertullian, an early writer of the church. The 1st Council of Constantinople defined the Consubstantiality of the Holy Spirit, God the Father and God the Son Jesus Christ. This established the Doctrine of the Holy Trinity. Note , Mr. Daray, that it was an extra-biblical authority that promulgated the Christian belief in the Holy Trinity.

Mr. Daray, just because a particular word or a doctrinal truth fails to be explicitly mentioned in the Holy Bible doesn't mean that it does not exist or is a fallacy. If you go by that argument, then you also undermine the Doctrine of the Holy Trinity, considering that it is not mentioned in the Holy Bible.

Additionally, the declaration of of the Immaculate Conception of Mary by His Holiness Pope Gregory XVI is merely the culmination of historical precedent. If you go back in church history, Pope Pius IX, as well as Pope Pius V consistently referred to Mary as the "Immaculate Mother". If we go back another millenia, to the 6th and 7th centuries, the early Catholic Church referred to Mary as Achrantos, which means pure, spotless, and holy. If we go back another 2-3 centuries, we see the early Church still referring to the Mother Mary as the Theotokos, which means sanctified bearer of the Christ Child.

If you examine the profundity of the history of Holy Mother Church, you will witness how consistent Holy Mother Church has been in her teachings, in the doctrinal truths that are taught. And all of these are provided to us through the Catechism and Canon Laws, which allows us to steer away from doctrinal errors.

GOD BLESS YOU, MR. DARAY!

Yours In Christ,
Lorenzo

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Author Topic: What did John Wesley say about Mary's Perpetual Virginity? (Read 1017 times)

Lorenzo

What did John Wesley say about Mary's Perpetual Virginity?

Lorenzo

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Lorenzo

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fdaray

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Lorenzo

Re: What did John Wesley say about Mary's Perpetual Virginity?

Lorenzo

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fdaray

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Lorenzo

Re: What did John Wesley say about Mary's Perpetual Virginity?

Lorenzo

Re: What did John Wesley say about Mary's Perpetual Virginity?

Lorenzo

Re: What did John Wesley say about Mary's Perpetual Virginity?